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View Full Version : [3.5e] What's the best way to gain immortality?



_Zoot_
2008-07-07, 09:03 AM
I always play the parties caster and I seem to always end up trying to become immortal. This has always involved becoming a lich. Are there other ways for a caster to become immortal?

On an unrelated topic, does anyone know if a Worm That Walks are immortal?

Kurald Galain
2008-07-07, 09:08 AM
The easiest way is casting Reincarnate on yourself every couple decades, although this has the disadvantage of randomizing your race.

In earlier editions, Magic Jar used to be permanent; that would also work.

Even easier is being a druid; upon reaching level 15, you're immune to aging. And some races are immortal by default.

Ealstan
2008-07-07, 09:09 AM
Play a warforged or Killoren (Eberron and Masters of the Wild, respectively). Neither of them has a maximum age, they both live forever. Built in 1st level immortality.

*edit* Ninja'd!

crazedloon
2008-07-07, 09:10 AM
Elan best race in the game :smallwink: no dieing from old age and you can never be starved to death. So have fun with living forever :smallbiggrin:

Signmaker
2008-07-07, 09:16 AM
Vow of Poverty Killorens must have it good, they don't need to eat, sleep, breathe, or age.

kamikasei
2008-07-07, 09:21 AM
Even easier is being a druid; upon reaching level 15, you're immune to aging. And some races are immortal by default.

Druids become immune to aging penalties, but they still die of old age.

And while you can try starting as a race with no maximum age, do note that the tempting-looking candidate, elans, are not a "change into one halfway through your career" option. You start out as a whole new person when you make the change.

If you were happy enough with lichdom and just want a change, try necropolitan, from Libris Morts. +0 LA become-an-undead template with a simple ritual costing some gold and XP and available at low levels.

The Demented One
2008-07-07, 10:21 AM
Doo doo doo... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10265)

hamishspence
2008-07-07, 10:24 AM
the Green Star Adept is reputed as the worst option, powerwise.

Done right, psions can skip very long periods without being truly immortal.

Dragons have the option of becoming a Dragon Ascendant.

Leewei
2008-07-07, 10:33 AM
Polymorph any object can make you into any number of different critters that age slowly or not at all.

Lapak
2008-07-07, 10:34 AM
Doing a little multiclassing and (with a nod from your DM) bouncing into Jade Phoenix Mage gives you a sort of immortality. Probably not the kind you're looking for, though.

Crazy Scot
2008-07-07, 10:35 AM
To my knowledge, there are only a few choices here.

1. choose a naturally immortal race - warforged (or other construct), elan, undead
2. get a template - lich, or other undead
3. choose a specific prestige class - Dragon Ascendant ("True" dragons only from Draconomicon), Cloud Anchorite (from Frostburn), Green Star Adept

These are the only options that I know of, but there might be others. Of these, the one that has the least restricitons on it is Cloud Anchorite, but the problem with it is that you need 10 levels in the prestige class to get immortality and you don't get many other good abilities unless you are playing in mountainous terrain on a regular basis.

Does anyone else have any other ideas?

Vavaara
2008-07-07, 10:41 AM
A Wish spell?

Talya
2008-07-07, 10:45 AM
A Wish spell?

Muahahahahahahahaha.

Phrase your wish very carefully.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-07, 11:39 AM
Be Good and worship a deity who will grant you an eternal afterlife.

It's kinda like immortality anyway :smalltongue:

Alternatively, come back as a ghost - who will be vengeful and retain all your spellcasting powers.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-07, 11:41 AM
Muahahahahahahahaha.

Phrase your wish very carefully.

Check it out. The process I used (successfully) one game requires four very specific wishes, referencing specific things in order to minimize warping. And a major ritual from the Savage Species Guide. Before everyone jumps on me for being a raging powergamer, the idea of the game this character was made for was just a fun dungeon crawl where we built the most powerful character we could and took on things in the epic level handbook. I think someone else, while not technically immortal, was immune to everything. We fought a god at the end and won.

Wish 1: The ritual. Technically, someone else casts it. You use it to turn yourself into a half-celestial Phoelarch (MM1 and MM3). Be sure to find someone with a caster level high enough to actually pull this off with no chance of failure. If your DM is intelligent, he'll just say that there aren't any wizards with that level of power available anywhere, at which point all you have to do is reach epic levels to gain immortality, since you can make yourself immune to trivial things like age and non-epic damage and magic, and there are no epic wizards because the DM just said so.

Wish 2: Wish that your Phoelarch's ability to be reborn as a Phoera would instead cause you to be reborn as another Phoelarch.

Wish 3: Wish that your Phoelarch's ability to be reborn as a Phoelarch would instead cause you to be reborn as your Phoelarch, in the precise status that he was in just prior to death, in the location that he died.

Wish 4: Wish that your Phoelarch's ability to be reborn as your Phoelarch in the place you died exactly as you were X time before you died was triggered instantaneously, rather than 24 hours or a week or whatever it is later.

So you just burned some serious gold/xp, but now every time you die, you come back to life right away, and all you've lost is 5 minutes worth of memory. As a side benefit, you're this giant firey angel thing with lots of cool features. This was a character that could (and did) spam Phoenix Fire and Armageddon in combat without side effects. It was awesome.

Chronos
2008-07-07, 11:47 AM
The easiest way is casting Reincarnate on yourself every couple decades, although this has the disadvantage of randomizing your race.That's a feature, not a bug. Personally, I'm just upset that they took animals off the table, because that was just friggin' cool.

Repeated Reincarnation has another strong point going for it: The body you come back in is young adult, but your mind remains unchanged, so you can keep on accumulating aging bonuses to Int, Wis, and Cha, without accumulating penalties to Str, Dex, and Con (even if you're not a druid yourself, they'll never be any worse than -6).

Chronos
2008-07-07, 11:53 AM
Wish 3: Wish that your Phoelarch's ability to be reborn as a Phoelarch would instead cause you to be reborn as your Phoelarch, in the precise status that he was in just prior to death, in the location that he died.Whoa, there... So every time you come back, you're mortally wounded with some sword through your gut, or in the bottom of a deathtrap with spikes that haven't quite ground you to paste yet, or deep in a pit of acid with most of your skin burned off, or...

Remember, you asked for it. I'm not even trying to pervert that wish; that's just the most straightforward interpretation.

Gorbash
2008-07-07, 12:08 PM
Research an epic spell that will let you acquire elemental template (the same thing as Elemental Savant)...

hamishspence
2008-07-07, 12:18 PM
Well, Faerun has an Elemental Archon prestige class for element-focussed clerics that does that. It doesn't explicitly say anything about aging.

But, if the base rule for Elementals is no aging, it would work.

Zeta Kai
2008-07-07, 12:31 PM
Since you mentioned wanting to be an immortal caster, you could take some levels in Bio-Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2487790#post2487790). The homebrew thread (by yours truly) has a method for achieving effective immortality, although you need to be either epic or nearly so.

Vavaara
2008-07-07, 02:34 PM
Going back to my wish idea:

1. Wish to die of old age
2. Wish to never age
3. Redundancy of wishes causes minor planar disturbance
4. ????
5. IMMORTALITY!!!

mostlyharmful
2008-07-07, 02:50 PM
Going back to my wish idea:

1. Wish to die of old age
2. Wish to never age

You'll leave one perfectly preserved corpse. :smallsmile:

If the OP isn't unaverse to loseing two caster levels over the course of ten I quite like Elemental Savant, the templates got a lot going for it, you eventually pick up an elemental immunity and a new movement type and it's relitively easy to get into.

Failing that you could try working out a new spell to make you immortal, that sounds like a fun plothook to me. Get your DM to come up with a reagents list, put together a reasonable template and go on the road to put together your jury-rigged MacGuffin.

Silence
2008-07-07, 02:58 PM
If you were happy enough with lichdom and just want a change, try necropolitan, from Libris Morts. +0 LA become-an-undead template with a simple ritual costing some gold and XP and available at low levels.

Seconded.

Fantastic choice.

Basically, you have to do a simple ritual. Basic stuff.

You have to be crucified, and a weird chant has to be repeated. Call upon the evil god(s) of death, and you're undead.

Good stuff.

Exactly what you want.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-07, 03:08 PM
Whoa, there... So every time you come back, you're mortally wounded with some sword through your gut, or in the bottom of a deathtrap with spikes that haven't quite ground you to paste yet, or deep in a pit of acid with most of your skin burned off, or...

Remember, you asked for it. I'm not even trying to pervert that wish; that's just the most straightforward interpretation.

No. Five minutes, man. At that level (25 gestalt) combats sometimes don't last five microseconds, let alone fifty rounds. I didn't put the wish list here that I presented to the DM, which was several pages long and written in something like legalese to avoid this kind of thing. Really, this character was about par compared to a couple of the others in the party, so the DM didn't bother with Chaos Theory, temporal displacement, infinite timelines and a bunch of other stuff you can use to warp even a perfectly worded wish.

Remember that on top of this little chain, he was a Level 25 gestalt.

Sorcerer/IIOTSFV/Archmage
Paladin/Kensai/Anointed Knight

And maybe some other stuff. Finding a way to hurt him through his gear and epic spell defenses was a challenge in and of itself - this was more like icing on the cake. I posted it here because, frankly, I thought it was kind of cool, forgetting for a moment that when you use the word "wish" on these boards people practically pee themselves trying to find a way to pervert it. Done right, it really is a pretty good wish chain. I just summarized a little here.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-07, 03:40 PM
So you just burned some serious gold/xp, but now every time you die, you come back to life right away, and all you've lost is 5 minutes worth of memory. As a side benefit, you're this giant firey angel thing with lots of cool features. This was a character that could (and did) spam Phoenix Fire and Armageddon in combat without side effects. It was awesome.

This would tempt me, as a DM, mightly to chain your PC to a rock and have their liver pecked out daily.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-07, 04:16 PM
This would tempt me, as a DM, mightly to chain your PC to a rock and have their liver pecked out daily.

Heh, I'll say it again: He was not the most powerful guy in the party - just the flashiest.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-07, 05:54 PM
Making it hard to become immortal (in the sense of just not dying of old age) is silly anyway. No power-gaming option I've ever heard of relied on being immortal, nor have I ever heard of a game in which dying of old age was a real threat.

If a player wants to play a character who has immortality in that sense as a goal, it's more an interesting story pursuit than anything like a power-gaming one. Why not encourage it and develop a story around his or her pursuit of that goal?

Noooos, teh DM must be againts teh players must KILL teh players die players die!!1! :smallamused:

Geesh.

Collin152
2008-07-07, 05:56 PM
This would tempt me, as a DM, mightly to chain your PC to a rock and have their liver pecked out daily.

So that the Hulking Hurler/Frenzied Berzerker can come by later and break the chains?
I think not.

Glawackus
2008-07-07, 06:05 PM
In terms of combat, my first thought is to get a high DR with your weakness being something in short supply, and then go around making sure that the item in question is very, very scarce.

_Zoot_
2008-07-07, 06:45 PM
Wow... I didn't think that this many people would post... thanks:smallbiggrin:

An Elemental Savnt looks fun, and it would be a nice change from being undead... on the other hand Necropolitans seem to be a good way to have the feel of a lich with out the LA...

Gorbash
2008-07-07, 06:53 PM
^But you don't have to be an elemental savant (not that good of a class, since it's essentially for blasting and you lose 3 caster lvls), you can just research an epic spell that lets you acquire the elemental template...

Battlefield
2008-07-07, 07:32 PM
Becoming a deity?

Hawriel
2008-07-07, 08:21 PM
Ive played a character I really loved. He grew as a person and became important to his kingdom. He Has risen to lead that kindom to whare it has prosperd beyond there dreames. He has done many things to protect his kingdom, up to and including going toe to toe with a god. He married and had five children.

I think he already ganed immortality.


Or you can make your character come from the planet ziest!!!! ;p <runs for my life>

_Zoot_
2008-07-07, 08:40 PM
^But you don't have to be an elemental savant (not that good of a class, since it's essentially for blasting and you lose 3 caster lvls), you can just research an epic spell that lets you acquire the elemental template...

I dont really understand epic magic so i dont really know how to make epic spells.

Also, at the moment im playing a warmage, so all im good for is blasting. But i'll soon be starting a Sorcerer.

A question...
With the Elemental speciality, does it have change the energy type?

Waspinator
2008-07-08, 12:41 AM
Flesh to Stone and a good museum that isn't likely to go out of business anytime soon with some extra space.

celestialkin
2008-07-08, 12:55 AM
Consider using the spell Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm), or the psionic equivalent.

Just kill yourself whenever you start getting old before you die of natural causes.


Also, if I remember correctly a Druid would not keep casting Reincarnate on you unless you trick him or something. Something about messing with the natural order and such. If you are at risk of dying of old age that would be the way it was meant to be, and all that.

Serpentine
2008-07-08, 01:02 AM
Oh, this one's easy. Don't die :smallwink:

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-08, 02:47 AM
For a simpler version of the one I posted before, you can ritualize yourself into a true dragon and then aim for the Dragon Ascendant prestige class. The capstone ability is immortality.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-08, 03:30 AM
Going back to my wish idea:

1. Wish to die of old age

You die...

Gorbash
2008-07-08, 03:43 AM
I dont really understand epic magic so i dont really know how to make epic spells.


Well, it's really simple, actually, you just need to research a Transform spell.

Base DC: 21
You're changing type, so +5
Hit dice are below 15 in either case, so no cost there.
Each Ex and Su ability is +10 - and the Earth Elementals have no Sp abilities, so that's fine. Outside the type (which is set above; anything tied to it is otherwise free), you've just got three Ex abilities on the Earth Elemental (Earth Glide, Earth Mastery, and Push) for +30 (+10 each).
It's Permanent by default.
Pre-mitigation spellcraft DC: 56.
Mitigation:
Time will do the job, here, just fine. Extra 10 minutes: -20; extra 18 days: -36. Between the two, you're at spellcraft DC 0.

So you just need 18 days and 10 minutes to do it, and that's it.

llamamushroom
2008-07-08, 05:11 AM
The Entire Post

Yes, well, there's a slight problem there - if the DM doesn't understand what's going on, it doesn't go on. And I don't understand it. Zoot, if you do, explain it to me and you can do it.

In other news, I'm glad you're considering things outside of lich, as that is seriously way too easy to set up encounters for - send in the Lawful Good zealotry! If you go down the path of elementalhood, I at least I don't have a backup plan of infinite boredom.

hamishspence
2008-07-08, 05:31 AM
Savage Species makes changing your type (not subtype, which is easier) a major ritual requiring Wish, that may not work.

Aside from prestige classes, pre-epic, thats the only obvious way.

_Zoot_
2008-07-08, 06:17 AM
Thanks for explaning it Gorbash that makes it mach simpler.

For you llamamushroom, the SRD has a section on creating epic spells and that info make more sence once you have read it. (llamamusroom is my DM for those that havent figerd it out)



In other news, I'm glad you're considering things outside of lich, as that is seriously way too easy to set up encounters for - send in the Lawful Good zealotry! If you go down the path of elementalhood, I at least I don't have a backup plan of infinite boredom.

But i like the idea of killing most of The LG zelots in the world... :smallfrown:

Out of interest, is there some group that hates elimentals? Or will i have to start killing people untill one forms?

Zeta Kai
2008-07-08, 07:41 AM
Out of interest, is there some group that hates elimentals? Or will i have to start killing people untill one forms?

I've seen campains where druids find them to be distastefully unnatural, but that's the only thing that springs to mind.

kamikasei
2008-07-08, 07:59 AM
I've seen campains where druids find them to be distastefully unnatural, but that's the only thing that springs to mind.

Considering that they embody nature to the point of being available via Wild Shape and summon nature's ally, that's pretty weird.

llamamushroom
2008-07-08, 08:10 AM
Oh, right, the srd. I'd forgotten about that, ever since it had the weirdest LA rules, and gave Psions a ridiculous amount of power points. Off I go, and then perhaps you shall have an elemental. If you're a good boy and stay quiet, you can also have a lolipop.

Hmm... A +3 lolipop... Intruiging...

_Zoot_
2008-07-08, 08:28 AM
ill be good, i want a lolipop :smalltongue:

Chronicled
2008-07-08, 09:21 AM
Oh, right, the srd. I'd forgotten about that, ever since it had the weirdest LA rules, and gave Psions a ridiculous amount of power points.

:confused:

The SRD is effectively the same stuff that's been printed, plus any errata's.

And Psions don't have a ridiculous number of power points.

_Zoot_
2008-07-08, 09:24 AM
From what i remember of him telling me, the SRD had something different from the book

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-08, 10:02 AM
Savage Species makes changing your type (not subtype, which is easier) a major ritual requiring Wish, that may not work.

Aside from prestige classes, pre-epic, thats the only obvious way.

Yes, you have to find a wizard with a caster level high enough that there's a 100% chance of success for getting each racial feature. If you happen to be in Faerun, find a red wizard and offer him a ton of gold to use his ritual circle thingy to boost his caster level way beyond his level. Otherwise, you pretty much need to find a near-epic wizard with a CL bumping item and class ability or two and convince him to help. This requires a little cooperation from the DM, but then, so does everything else on this thread.

And really, the sky's the limit with turning into things. Half-Celestial Titan? Ghaele? Voidwraith (a personal favorite - it's essentially an undead air elemental)? It can all be yours.

Note that even then, you can't pick up the new creature's base mental ability scores (You use your own), but you can gain innate spellcasting ability (Like a dragon's effective sorcerer levels) and virtually every other fun feature.

Gorbash
2008-07-08, 10:43 AM
Thanks for explaning it Gorbash that makes it mach simpler.

For you llamamushroom, the SRD has a section on creating epic spells and that info make more sence once you have read it.

Well, it's still not the optimal solution, since it requires that you be able to cast epic spells, so for most campaigns it won't have any effect game-wise, but aside from being a lich (although there are good liches, Baelnorns), I don't know of any other solution, but IMHO, it's the coolest way there is. Cmon, an elemental! Fits perfectly with Blasters.

martyboy74
2008-07-08, 09:40 PM
If you're willing to abduct healthy young people, and spend XP (and lose levels), True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm)works nigh flawlessly.

John Campbell
2008-07-08, 09:56 PM
If you're playing at epic level, all you've got to do is gain three levels every [max maximum age modifier/2] years and take Extended Life Span for your feat.

llamamushroom
2008-07-08, 10:17 PM
If you're playing at epic level, all you've got to do is gain three levels every [max maximum age modifier/2] years and take Extended Life Span for your feat.

Which could get very difficult if the DM gets bored, if you catch my drift.

@Chronicled: OK, perhaps we're talking different SRDs here - I recently saw a much cooler looking one - but I am referring to the Hypertext. My point on Psions is that the Handbook gives them (at level 20) 183 power points, while the SRD gives them 343. Also, they have some inaccurate rules about psions in general - they have the ability to learn all powers, and their discipline spells are just 'bonus' ones they learn at each level - they would get 5 powers from anywhere and get an additional 1 from their discipline, for instance.

@zoot: I like the new avatar... it suits you.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-08, 10:28 PM
I've always thought the easiest way to stay alive was by using the Steal Life spell (BoVD) on the night of the full moon on someone that can heal Constitution ability damage. You could get back 100+ years in a single night, and cancel the spell whenever you like just by ending your concentration. Plus, no one has to die, and a few Restoration potions later and they're as good as new. It's the closest thing 3.5 has to a potion of youth.

Recaiden
2008-07-08, 10:32 PM
Which could get very difficult if the DM gets bored, if you catch my drift.

@Chronicled: OK, perhaps we're talking different SRDs here - I recently saw a much cooler looking one - but I am referring to the Hypertext. My point on Psions is that the Handbook gives them (at level 20) 183 power points, while the SRD gives them 343. Also, they have some inaccurate rules about psions in general - they have the ability to learn all powers, and their discipline spells are just 'bonus' ones they learn at each level - they would get 5 powers from anywhere and get an additional 1 from their discipline, for instance.

@zoot: I like the new avatar... it suits you.

Do you mean the 3.0 handbook? The 3.5 is called the expanded psionics hadbook, and makes so much more sense.

_Zoot_
2008-07-08, 10:51 PM
I've always thought the easiest way to stay alive was by using the Steal Life spell (BoVD) on the night of the full moon on someone that can heal Constitution ability damage. You could get back 100+ years in a single night, and cancel the spell whenever you like just by ending your concentration. Plus, no one has to die, and a few Restoration potions later and they're as good as new. It's the closest thing 3.5 has to a potion of youth.

That sounds really good, and it would be good for fluff

Collin152
2008-07-08, 10:54 PM
I've always thought the easiest way to stay alive was by using the Steal Life spell (BoVD) on the night of the full moon on someone that can heal Constitution ability damage. You could get back 100+ years in a single night, and cancel the spell whenever you like just by ending your concentration. Plus, no one has to die, and a few Restoration potions later and they're as good as new. It's the closest thing 3.5 has to a potion of youth.

As always, the dark side is the answer.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-09, 12:25 AM
I have this mental image of all of the wizards who resorted to becoming liches not because they wanted to be horrible undead creatures but simply because they thought they had no other choice for obtaining immortality simultaneously saying, "Whaaat ...?"

mabriss lethe
2008-07-09, 12:37 AM
I played around with a bard, who through judicious (ab)use of Shadow Conjuration, extended his lifespan enormously. (spam shadow version of Sepia Snake Sigil.) I played him sort of like a Shanara style druid. He finds a secluded spot, naps in suspended animation for a bit, wakes up, pokes about, naps a bit longer and before you know it, centuries have just flown by. admittedly, not anywhere near the best version, but it was an interesting way to put the character on ice for use in later campaigns. (the game had a tendency to stretch on for geologic ages.) extreme longevity via a 3rd level spell. not too shabby.

kamikasei
2008-07-09, 12:38 AM
@Chronicled: OK, perhaps we're talking different SRDs here - I recently saw a much cooler looking one - but I am referring to the Hypertext. My point on Psions is that the Handbook gives them (at level 20) 183 power points, while the SRD gives them 343. Also, they have some inaccurate rules about psions in general - they have the ability to learn all powers, and their discipline spells are just 'bonus' ones they learn at each level - they would get 5 powers from anywhere and get an additional 1 from their discipline, for instance.

My XPH disagrees with you. You may indeed be looking at 3.0 material.

Aquillion
2008-07-09, 12:41 AM
Regarding the people talking about Wish:

We've been over this already. If you go outside the limited list of 'guarenteed' wishes printed in the spell, there is no wording that, per RAW, will guarentee you get what you want -- absolutely none. No matter how many pages of carefully-planned clauses you think up, and no matter how high your character's intelligence is, it is simply not possible to outsmart Wish.

The reason is this line from the spell description:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) You can use careful wording to prevent a 'literal-wording' issue... but no amount of intelligence or careful wording can protect you from the partial fufilment clause. Per RAW, for instance, if you print a twenty-page essay, the DM could rip the first paragraph (or sentence!) out, read it, ignore the rest, and grant your wish based exclusively on what was in the part they read.

If you wish to "live forever", no matter how many other words you wrap around it, you can get it partially fufilled into "living for a decently long time", or into surviving the next time you would die (excluding natural aging), or into 'existing' forever but not living (as a statue).

These things can happen even if you specifically worded your wish to prevent them, because that's what a partial fufilment means (you get some of what you asked for, or some part of what you asked for, but not everything.)

No wording of your Wish can prevent this. It's entirely DM call, so using Wish for immortality is no better a plan than, say, asking your DM to houserule a way for you to become a rank-0 deity.

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 01:22 AM
hush! hush!

My DM reads this don't tell him that :smallwink:

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-09, 01:49 AM
Regarding the people talking about Wish:

We've been over this already. If you go outside the limited list of 'guarenteed' wishes printed in the spell, there is no wording that, per RAW, will guarentee you get what you want -- absolutely none. No matter how many pages of carefully-planned clauses you think up, and no matter how high your character's intelligence is, it is simply not possible to outsmart Wish.

The reason is this line from the spell description:You can use careful wording to prevent a 'literal-wording' issue... but no amount of intelligence or careful wording can protect you from the partial fufilment clause. Per RAW, for instance, if you print a twenty-page essay, the DM could rip the first paragraph (or sentence!) out, read it, ignore the rest, and grant your wish based exclusively on what was in the part they read.

If you wish to "live forever", no matter how many other words you wrap around it, you can get it partially fufilled into "living for a decently long time", or into surviving the next time you would die (excluding natural aging), or into 'existing' forever but not living (as a statue).

These things can happen even if you specifically worded your wish to prevent them, because that's what a partial fufilment means (you get some of what you asked for, or some part of what you asked for, but not everything.)

No wording of your Wish can prevent this. It's entirely DM call, so using Wish for immortality is no better a plan than, say, asking your DM to houserule a way for you to become a rank-0 deity.

I'm aware of what's in the wish spell description. Despite this, you are mistaken (You keep using the term "absolutely no way" - the battle cry of indignant DMs everywhere, and I can imagine you found my earlier method with 4 wishes to be an affront to all good roleplay and decency everywhere, and never mind the fact that the DM specifically told us to make the most powerful character we could. I wouldn't have done that otherwise (there are much easier ways to go about immortality at level 25 - the infinite epic wizard loop is a good one) but it was really, really cool, and granted immortality, and so I posted it here. For the record, I know better than to engage in mortal combat with the DM over a wish spell). There is one method that prevents the DM (by RAW) from messing with the wish for the express purpose of transforming into another species - you cannot use it to directly wish for immortality - all you can do is switch which creature you are. The problem is that you can change into just about anything. The major ritual section in the Savage Species Guide outlines a way to use wish like this - failure free. The variant rule on it has a chance of failure that decreases with spellcraft checks (not caster level, as I said earlier), which is what I was talking about earlier. The percent chance of failure experiences a linear progression downward as the casting character gains levels. Granted, the cutoff point where you can't fail is a +39 to your spellcraft checks, but there are ways to get to that number at non-epic levels, and ways to try it with a lower bonus and reroll if things go badly, too. It costs a ton of gold, as well.

Somewhat expensive? Yes. Broken as hell? Yes. Can it be messed with by the DM? Yes, because he's the DM and can rewrite the rules whenever he wants, but by the RAW, he's not supposed to. Most DMs I know just ban this version of the major ritual in all their games, just like candles of invocation - which, ironically, can be used to enact this very ritual at a fraction of even the low, low (relative) existing cost.

Look ma, I just outsmarted wish!

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-09, 01:59 AM
That sounds really good, and it would be good for fluff

The spell is pretty specific to a full moon, and requires a type of victim that could survive being drained one ability point a round for an entire night (I recommend Naberius binders or soulmelders with Strongheart Vest, but with enough charges on a few wands of lesser restoration, anyone would work). It could be fun to have an evil old woman use this to return to her younger self in time to be a big bad, or an assistant to a big bad.


As always, the dark side is the answer.

Isn't it? Between Mindrape and Steal Life, all of lifes problems can be solved with judicious use of the Book of Vile Darkness. I bet there's even a spell in there to deal with the pesky Inevitables when they show up.


I have this mental image of all of the wizards who resorted to becoming liches not because they wanted to be horrible undead creatures but simply because they thought they had no other choice for obtaining immortality simultaneously saying, "Whaaat ...?"

Me too! :smalltongue: Silly master undead wizards! You should have looked harder for spells to extend your life!

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-09, 02:16 AM
Isn't it? Between Mindrape and Steal Life, all of lifes problems can be solved with judicious use of the Book of Vile Darkness. I bet there's even a spell in there to deal with the pesky Inevitables when they show up.

Don't age another day, order your copy of Can I has Immortality? today! You'll be feeling twenty again in no time! Warning: Side effects may include nausea, diahrea, hormone imbalance, puberty, alignment shift, and being villified in history texts and the media. Some patients experienced mild to severe attacks by Inevitables. If you are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant, then suddenly altering your biological age may not be healthy. Ask your doctor if immortality is right for you. Call now!

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 02:54 AM
Don't age another day, order your copy of Can I has Immortality? today! You'll be feeling twenty again in no time! Warning: Side effects may include nausea, diahrea, hormone imbalance, puberty, alignment shift, and being villified in history texts and the media. Some patients experienced mild to severe attacks by Inevitables. If you are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant, then suddenly altering your biological age may not be healthy. Ask your doctor if immortality is right for you. Call now!

@^Whats the number?:smallsmile:

About elimentals, are there any really cool types like shadow or magic? or do i have to use the regular ones?

Maby a Chlorine one?

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 04:45 AM
I have this mental image of all of the wizards who resorted to becoming liches not because they wanted to be horrible undead creatures but simply because they thought they had no other choice for obtaining immortality simultaneously saying, "Whaaat ...?"

Yeah, but being a lich means that every time you get killed, you get back, as long as your phylactery is intact. And you get immunities and DR. So, it's not just about immortality...


About elimentals, are there any really cool types like shadow or magic? or do i have to use the regular ones?

There are paraelementals - Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke... Although nothing says cool as a Earth Elemental, IMHO.

hamishspence
2008-07-09, 05:21 AM
Tomb of Magic gives you Shadow elementals, Heroes of Horror gives you Taint elementals.

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 06:43 AM
I Think that Libris Mortis has an undead elementals

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 07:22 AM
I Think that Libris Mortis has an undead elementals

And there I was, thinking Wotc hit the bottom with Clockroaches...

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 07:26 AM
And there I was, thinking Wotc hit the bottom with Clockroaches...

What book are Clockroaches from?

hamishspence
2008-07-09, 07:37 AM
MM IV. And the idea of a slain elemental rising if slain in a negative energy zone isn't a total disaster. First appearence was MMIII. And remember their type is usually still undead.

Aquillion
2008-07-09, 07:57 AM
I'm aware of what's in the wish spell description. Despite this, you are mistakenNope. You admitted otherwise yourself:

I didn't put the wish list here that I presented to the DM, which was several pages long and written in something like legalese to avoid this kind of thing.
Which I assume covered these things:

Wish 2: Wish that your Phoelarch's ability to be reborn as a Phoera would instead cause you to be reborn as another Phoelarch.

Wish 3: Wish that your Phoelarch's ability to be reborn as a Phoelarch would instead cause you to be reborn as your Phoelarch, in the precise status that he was in just prior to death, in the location that he died.

Wish 4: Wish that your Phoelarch's ability to be reborn as your Phoelarch in the place you died exactly as you were X time before you died was triggered instantaneously, rather than 24 hours or a week or whatever it is later.
As both you and I know, per RAW legalese has zero impact on the Wish spell; it can make for fun roleplaying, and everything else you can sometimes just have things happen via roleplaying instead of strictly limited to the abilities you're guarenteed by RAW (as can, say, roleplaying that you convince an overdeity to make you a god), but everything in your post beyond that point was no more meaningful to a general discussion of ways to get immortality in 3.5 than "I asked my DM to let me get Divine Rank 0 one time and he had me go on an adventure that ended with an overdeity giving it to me!"

I'm glad you had a fun campaign. But it isn't very relevant to this discussion, and didn't need to be spelled out. This method, posted by someone else, uses essentially the same mechanics as yours, but less flavor-specific and with more room for people to fill in the roleplaying theme themselves:

1. Wish to die of old age
2. Wish to never age
3. Redundancy of wishes causes minor planar disturbance
4. ????
5. IMMORTALITY!!!

DigoDragon
2008-07-09, 08:04 AM
Ive played a character I really loved. He grew as a person and became important to his kingdom. He Has risen to lead that kindom to whare it has prosperd beyond there dreames. He has done many things to protect his kingdom, up to and including going toe to toe with a god. He married and had five children.

I think he already ganed immortality.

I so TOTALLY agree that this is the only true path of immortality :smallbiggrin: Like the quote from a very good episode of Gargoyles:

HUDSON: "A friendly word of advice. True immortality isn't about living forever, man. It's about what you do with the time you have."

Aquillion
2008-07-09, 08:06 AM
Hmm... what ways are there to go from being undead to being alive again, for a wizard who became a lich and now regrets it?

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 08:09 AM
I think that you can ture reserect an undead and they come back as the person that they were before, if thats true would the lich that has lived for thousands of years just die of old age?

Aquillion
2008-07-09, 08:31 AM
I think that you can ture reserect an undead and they come back as the person that they were before, if thats true would the lich that has lived for thousands of years just die of old age?
An interesting question. Probably something you want to ask your DM in advance.

I suppose the RAW answer would be... First, Resurrection / True Resurrection can certainly bring you back after you've been undead and then destroyed. (Technically... if you destroy a lich, you can then true resurrect it? It'd have to agree, of course. But what if it already regenerated as a lich?
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.Well... Xykon was destroyed. He got better, but he was destroyed. (Probably it doesn't really count as long as their phylactery survived, though.)

But anyway:

You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age.Technically not a problem.

The problem is this:
A character who reaches his or her maximum age dies of old age at some time during the following year.That's what happens, per RAW, if your DM rules the time spent undead counts against your age -- you don't die instantly, but over the next year. (Hrm, but... it doesn't say what happens if you manage to exceed your maximum age...)

The condition summary for 'dead', though, reads in part:
A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."Condition at time of death" says to me that you will, at least, not have aged physically. But you might still mysteriously die sometime over the next year, because your time is up...

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 08:39 AM
You cant be true reserected if your phylatory(?) still remais because your soul is in it and thus not avalable for reserection...


"Condition at time of death" says to me that you will, at least, not have aged physically. But you might still mysteriously die sometime over the next year, because your time is up...

Thats not really a problem for me because i would only be needing a ture rez if my phylatory was distroyed, and then i would complete the lichification prosess agian :smallbiggrin:

PhallicWarrior
2008-07-09, 09:02 AM
Back on topic: Dragon #354 had an article on ancient PCs which included a 9th level Wizard spell, Kissed by the Ages. The spell binds a person's soul to a small piece of jewlery, which they must wear at all times, but while they wear it they don't age, and can't die of old age. They can still be killed, and they still need to eat and breath, but at least it's something, right?

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 09:08 AM
Back on topic: Dragon #354 had an article on ancient PCs which included a 9th level Wizard spell, Kissed by the Ages. The spell binds a person's soul to a small piece of jewlery, which they must wear at all times, but while they wear it they don't age, and can't die of old age. They can still be killed, and they still need to eat and breath, but at least it's something, right?


O.o

thats really cool, Out of interest can the wizard that casts it use it one other people? Because if he can, not only can non casters use it, But you could use it on some one and then not give them the gem thing :smallamused:

Premier
2008-07-09, 09:14 AM
So far, the only edition of D&D that has ever addressed the question of immortality in an in-depth and truly workable manner was the Mentzer series. Therefore, if you're so crazy about the thing, acquire a copy or pdf of the Player's and Dungeon Master's books for the Master Boxed Set (1985, compiled by Frank Mentzer). If you're interested in what happens to the campaign AFTER you've become immortal, also the get the Immortal set. Then take them to your DM and ask him to incorporate the concepts and cosmology into his campaign.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-09, 09:49 AM
Nope. You admitted otherwise yourself:

Suppose I did. That doesn't change the text of the SSG.


Which I assume covered these things:

As both you and I know, per RAW legalese has zero impact on the Wish spell; it can make for fun roleplaying, and everything else you can sometimes just have things happen via roleplaying instead of strictly limited to the abilities you're guarenteed by RAW (as can, say, roleplaying that you convince an overdeity to make you a god), but everything in your post beyond that point was no more meaningful to a general discussion of ways to get immortality in 3.5 than "I asked my DM to let me get Divine Rank 0 one time and he had me go on an adventure that ended with an overdeity giving it to me!"

I'm glad you had a fun campaign. But it isn't very relevant to this discussion, and didn't need to be spelled out. This method, posted by someone else, uses essentially the same mechanics as yours, but less flavor-specific and with more room for people to fill in the roleplaying theme themselves:

There is a marginal difference between the DM not granting singular overpowered wishes and the DM delivering a giant **** you to the player. Take a look at the three things I asked for, taken individually. There's a reason I used four wishes, with each one asking for a small alteration. No one wish, on its own, is going to grant me anything near immortality (most of the possibility of immortality - the infinitely respawning Phoera thing - is granted through the unwarpable ritual). Your suggestion is that the sum total of the wishes should somehow be taken into account when granting them, which is rather silly. Do remember that I paid several times the XP cost to do it like that, which is normally pretty steep anyway. And the dude can still be killed if you get creative enough.

Oh, and just as there's no RAW argument that prevents the DM from warping a non-ritual wish, there's no RAW argument that spells out that it is the DM's sacred duty to calculate where a player might be going with a wish and prevent it through any means. Most DMs see it that way, however, and make damn sure that wish is never used for anything other than the items on the list. At this point, you're better off just banning the spell because very few of the things on the list are ever worth coughing up 5,000 XP, and none of them are better than Shapechange (even in nerfed form) or Disjunction, Time Stop, Gate, or even Greater Dimensional Jumper. The original flavor of wish dating all the way back to AD&D was that clever enough wording would get you what you wanted. Over time, "be careful when wishing for it" became "don't wish for anything that the cleric can't accomplish through normal spellcasting." Even the line you quoted from the text suggests that better wording makes for a better wish.

There's no real way to grant half of, or a part of, the wishes I presented (and I think I broke up the second one into three seperate wishes). They're small and very specific so that a literal interpretation accomplishes the same thing as a reasonable one. I did not wish for immortality straight up a la Dragon Ball Z and expect it to be granted. Most players took comfort in the fact that I had burned many thousands of gp and XP on this - not to mention the time used in coming up with the wishes. This was a tad more pricey than asking favors from the DM.

Note that I do not recommend this method of attaining immortality for your campaign. I understand that it offends the sensibility of any DM to let his player go and warp reality like that, even in small steps. However, this was a thread about immortality and the ways to get it, and just as there's no guarantee that it will work, there's no guarantee that it can't work in a very high level game - your DM might allow it. And that's as relevant to the discussion as it needs to be.

In fact "your DM might or might not allow it" is a line that could be applied to anything posted on this thread. Even if your methods are airtight by the RAW, most DMs balk at giving players immortality (heck, most balk at giving them regeneration). If the method you post here has to work even with an uncooperative DM, then we might as well shut down the thread now. And before you start quoting the text of wish again, I want you to find the part where it says the DM WILL warp the wishes I posted. If the text don't fit, you must aquit.

And there's no warping the other way I posted that you can use. Ritualize yourself into a dragon and go hit up dragon ascendant. Fun and majestic.

If you like, I can go the extra cheesy mile and do the same thing with epic magic (also available that game), only I would also have much more in the way of funds, equipment, firepower, and XP when it was over, as well as my own demiplane. As always, the DM could interfere, but he's not supposed to in this case - at all. Please try to keep a little perspective.

hamishspence
2008-07-09, 09:55 AM
Epic magic is more abusable than wishes, with the difference that it explicitly states you have to have the DMs permission for any epic spell to get past the research stage. Somewhat Out of the Frying Pan, Into the Fire.

I'm not sure why there is no price tag on wished-up magic items when there is on mundane ones. maybe the item must exist somewhere, and so is teleported in a la Barry Trotter (which means there may be a very annoyed NPC searching for you)

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-09, 10:02 AM
Epic magic is more abusable than wishes, with the difference that it explicitly states you have to have the DMs permission for any epic spell to get past the research stage. Somewhat Out of the Frying Pan, Into the Fire.

If you have to have the DM's permission for everything, then how is it more abuseable than wish? It should, if anything, be less broken (and decidedly less epic). I think the ELH recommends doing it like that, but it's not the default mode of operation.

hamishspence
2008-07-09, 10:04 AM
actually; elemental type in MM says nothing about age, just Does not eat, sleep or breathe. (nor does the most recent MMV incarnation)

So you'd need to change into something explicitly immune to aging.

If DM is generous, can allow wishes outside of the listed ones, but they should use the listed ones as a guideline for power. OTT wishes should invite an OTT response.

hamishspence
2008-07-09, 10:07 AM
Abusability comes from reducing spellcraft DC to 0. (no gold or XP cost is a lot more abusable) Throw in spells like Gate (in the PHB) and you can have serious cheese. And some players get snippy if DM doesn't let them use the epicc magic rules as written.

Leon
2008-07-09, 10:09 AM
Hmm, Open season for the Marut

Douglas
2008-07-09, 10:28 AM
I'm not sure why there is no price tag on wished-up magic items when there is on mundane ones. maybe the item must exist somewhere, and so is teleported in a la Barry Trotter (which means there may be a very annoyed NPC searching for you)
That is because creating a magic item with Wish costs extra XP. Specifically, in exchange for not needing the item creation feat, not spending any gold, and getting it instantly, you have to spend twice the normal crafting XP plus an extra 5000 XP. Wishing for magic items is not cheap normally.

Problems arise with this only when you combine it with any of the various ways to remove the XP cost.

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 10:30 AM
Somehow I don't think a Marut would pose much of a threat to someone with epic spellcasting...

Leon
2008-07-09, 10:35 AM
Somehow I don't think a Marut would pose much of a threat to someone with epic spellcasting...

A "Standard" one maybe, Multiple Advanced ones maybe not

Zeful
2008-07-09, 10:39 AM
Hmm, Open season for the Marut

Open season for highly advanced, templated Maruts and Zelkutes, you are denying justice after all.

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 10:41 AM
Oh please. Then I could say, but he couldn't to anything to a Wizard 20/Epic 10 either. It's an endless loop. I'm talking about standard Marut and standard epic caster. Marut can't do anything to him...

hamishspence
2008-07-09, 01:56 PM
Going by Elder Evils, the Lawful forces of mechanus (whatever those may be) WILL send upgraded inevitables out once the first is slain, and keep sending them, with increase in power each time. If their increase is faster than yours, trouble will be in store.

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 02:16 PM
Then it's a simple matter of imprisong it for good. By imprisonment or some other means, your choice.

hamishspence
2008-07-09, 02:47 PM
I which case, we could have the maruts stop coming, or, if DM is feeling mean, say that Inevitables, as the Lawful creatures they are, are expected to report back. If they don't the process speeds up. Or, if there is a "god of Mechanus" it might send out other servitors: gods are very good at spying on their operatives.

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 03:20 PM
Well the DM can just say that a ton of bricks just fell on your head, too, but gamewise and rulewise, no, the Maruts won't keep coming. I am entirely positive that that particular, imprisoned Marut will keep trying to escape and then carry on with his mission, but if the wizard is smart he won't allow it. And I really don't see why didn't WotC didn't give Inevitables better saves, how big a threat they can be against a caster with their crappy saves? I was at some point worried that a Quarut (Inevitable who hunts those who mess with time flow) will come after my wizard who will get Time Stop as a spell-like ability (as an Archmage), but seeing a CR 17 monster with FRW +6/+7/+9 kinda made me stop worrying. Only Rogues should fear Inevitables (construct traits and all that), they're not that intimidating to others...

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-09, 03:24 PM
I'd expect that if you ever became any sort of problem for a god, you'd have an Aleax (http://www.aleax.com/whatsanaleax.php) fighting you, a construct clone with powers equal to or greater than your own. How do you beat an epic wizard? ...with another epic wizard, of course. :smallwink:

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 03:38 PM
Well, that's assuming that DM can play your character better than you can. :smallbiggrin:

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-09, 03:49 PM
Well, that's assuming that DM can play your character better than you can. :smallbiggrin:

Not only that, he also has to be willing to take the chance that the player will win and pick up some sweet bonuses in addition to an entire party encounter's worth of XP.

"Strike me down and you'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!"

"Ok, then. Let's get on it."

"...Nuts."

Alright, so it's not that huge of an improvement, but it's still nice.

mostlyharmful
2008-07-09, 03:54 PM
I'd expect that if you ever became any sort of problem for a god, you'd have an Aleax (http://www.aleax.com/whatsanaleax.php) fighting you, a construct clone with powers equal to or greater than your own. How do you beat an epic wizard? ...with another epic wizard, of course. :smallwink:

Lead time is pretty much all that matters if you've got an epic caster and a reasonable DM, add all the cool beanies you want to the opposition up to and including greater deity rank and an Epic Spellcaster will beat them with time to prep.:smallfrown:

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-09, 04:21 PM
If you're a Kobold, I think picking up Dragonwrought Kobold (Races of the Dragon) will make you effectively immortal via giving you the dragon template. (Or at least let you live a few thousand years if you're lucky.) In addition, you'll pick up some nice bonuses like +2 to a skill and immunity to sleep and paralysis.

Of course, I don't know wether or not having the dragon subtype is worth it. Sure, you can no longer be "Hold Person"d, but you also can't be "Enlarge Person"d either. And someone can still Dominate Monster you, I think...

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-09, 04:57 PM
Lead time is pretty much all that matters if you've got an epic caster and a reasonable DM, add all the cool beanies you want to the opposition up to and including greater deity rank and an Epic Spellcaster will beat them with time to prep.:smallfrown:

There's nothing saying that an Aleax has to immediately assault you, and there's no way for you to know the mind of god well enough for you be able to perfectly anticipate the arrival of your aleax clone. It may appear instantly beside you, or halfway across the multiverse, and prep to defeat you as well.

The aleax is a perfect clone of you, and knows you exactly as well as you know yourself. All your epic spells, magic items, weapons, buffs, defensive strategies are known to the aleax and also possessed by that same aleax. Add to it's advantages that it's utterly safe from attack by everyone except you, and it's sole purpose is to devise a way to destroy you, even if it dies in the process. To me, the dedication to killing you at all costs is the terrifying part and I really dont see how anyone anywhere could beat something like that, except by sheer luck.

It's true that an Epic Spellcaster with time to prep can kill anything, but when it's two epic spellcasters with nearly identical powers and the same amount of prep time, I think it could go either way. Though I must admit I would like to see a fight between a greater diety and an epic spellcaster.

nargbop
2008-07-09, 05:27 PM
Partial fulfillment makes me grin...

I would , to a player's request to "live forever", take away all but one XP, and watch them have fun working all the way back up as unkillable mooks for years and years.

I'm going to go wrestle with that black dragon! I'm wrestling with him! I'm wrestling with his mouth! I'm wrestling with his insides! It burns most terribly but I think I'm going to be OK! Alright, I've got his uvula! Somebody tell the wyrm to yodel!

mostlyharmful
2008-07-09, 05:29 PM
Now that is a fun idea for a campaign.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 05:32 PM
Though I must admit I would like to see a fight between a greater diety and an epic spellcaster.

Ever heard of Karsus's Folly? Look it up.


The aleax is a perfect clone of you, and knows you exactly as well as you know yourself. All your epic spells, magic items, weapons, buffs, defensive strategies are known to the aleax and also possessed by that same aleax.

Yes, Aleax knows you, but your DM doesn't. At best, it's a 50-50 chance. In more realistic world, you have the upper hand, since you know what your character can do better than anyone.

Vexxation
2008-07-09, 05:34 PM
I had an idea for a kind of superhero-style immortality that would be a neat wish-gone-awry.

The idea is that upon dead, the body is regenerated nearby, but not so near that you die again immediately. In other words, you fall into a volcano, you materialize on the rim.

This seems like a win, but:
You still feel pain. Every. Single. Time.
Death rattles you, so the more you die in a quick period the less able to go on you are.
Your wounds, upon materializing, scar over. Every wound you receive, ever, scars you, forever. Eventually the character would be horribly scarred to the point of scaring everyone away from him; clerics might think he's undead, and if they see him re-materialize, might believe so even harder.

I just like the phoenix-concept.

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 05:38 PM
Nice idea. Too bad that guys from the Black Isle thought of it 9 years ago...

*cough* Planescape: Torment *cough*

The New Bruceski
2008-07-09, 05:43 PM
DM: "You've just found out that an Aleax, a perfect copy of you, has been made and is readying itself to destroy you. How do you want to take it on?"

PC: "Well, I prep with blab blab blah..."

DM: "Ok. You didn't actually find out. It shows up and does that."

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-09, 05:53 PM
Ever heard of Karsus's Folly? Look it up.

Oh, I know about that. I'd hardly count it as a victory for the epic caster, since his spell destroyed him as well as the diety in question and utterly failed it's objective of making Karsus a god. In addition it destroyed his entire civilization, a result counter to the very reason he decided to cast the spell in the first place. His soul is now a vestige, trapped and suffering constantly. If that's the result of beating a greater diety, I'd advise you it's better not to try.

Gorbash
2008-07-09, 05:56 PM
I didn't say it was a victory lol. I merely implied what happens when you try to take on a god. Mess with the bull, you get the horns. :smallwink:

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-09, 08:23 PM
DM: "You've just found out that an Aleax, a perfect copy of you, has been made and is readying itself to destroy you. How do you want to take it on?"

PC: "Well, I prep with blab blab blah..."

DM: "Ok. You didn't actually find out. It shows up and does that."

For killing an epic level wizard the best I can suggest is a hail of voidstones, the raw material for spheres of annihilation. It's the dire half-dragon version of "rocks fall, you die."

llamamushroom
2008-07-09, 09:05 PM
Well the DM can just say that a ton of bricks just fell on your head, too

Or, the DM can say that the ceiling just ate you.

That's the thing, Zoot - if I don't want you to win, there is no way you can. But that's not very sporting.

Actually, becoming a god would be a very, very interesting way of attaining immortality... especially if a fellow party member was particularly zealous for their own god...

What happened to the Latin, Zoot?

Aquillion
2008-07-09, 09:47 PM
Then it's a simple matter of imprisong it for good. By imprisonment or some other means, your choice.The funny thing about this is that it makes perfect sense that the powers of Mechanus would fall for it. They're exactly the sorts to follow the rules even if it makes no sense and actually ends up with you getting off scot free.


Yes, Aleax knows you, but your DM doesn't. At best, it's a 50-50 chance. In more realistic world, you have the upper hand, since you know what your character can do better than anyone.Technically, the Aleax has one big advantage over you: It'll be willing to burn any amount of resources to win right off the bat. You, presumably, aren't going to want to do that. It can, say, Gate in a bunch of outsiders on an extended contract in exchange for its soul and body after you're dead and so on, or make similarly unfavorable bargains via Planar Binding that the real you probably wouldn't want to contemplate.

Jayngfet
2008-07-09, 09:55 PM
I hate to break it to you but...

...There's no way to become really immortal, after 600-700 years marut's come after you, they keep coming after you, if you kill one more come after you, and you better pray no deals have been cheated or broken any laws cheated, or all three come after you.


They are inevitable.

chiasaur11
2008-07-09, 10:52 PM
I hate to break it to you but...

...There's no way to become really immortal, after 600-700 years marut's come after you, they keep coming after you, if you kill one more come after you, and you better pray no deals have been cheated or broken any laws cheated, or all three come after you.


They are inevitable.

Well, there's one solution.

I hope you like playing as a Kobold...

Chronos
2008-07-09, 11:06 PM
Only Rogues should fear Inevitables (construct traits and all that), they're not that intimidating to others...Why? Maruts only have a Spot of +16, and all the others are even worse. What's a rogue got to fear from that?

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 11:11 PM
Or, the DM can say that the ceiling just ate you.

That's the thing, Zoot - if I don't want you to win, there is no way you can. But that's not very sporting.

Actually, becoming a god would be a very, very interesting way of attaining immortality... especially if a fellow party member was particularly zealous for their own god...



The ceiling ate me :smalleek:
I can stop that, ill live in a house with no roof :smallcool:
oops, i edited it out by mistake
And your right, being a god would be very interesting...

monty
2008-07-09, 11:29 PM
Or, the DM can say that the ceiling just ate you.

That's the thing, Zoot - if I don't want you to win, there is no way you can. But that's not very sporting.

Actually, becoming a god would be a very, very interesting way of attaining immortality... especially if a fellow party member was particularly zealous for their own god...

What happened to the Latin, Zoot?

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm

Scroll down to the "Room of Death."

Waspinator
2008-07-09, 11:40 PM
The ceiling ate me :smalleek:
I can stop that, ill live in a house with no roof :smallcool:

Better not go into any caves:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/darkmantle.htm

chiasaur11
2008-07-09, 11:51 PM
The ceiling ate me :smalleek:
I can stop that, ill live in a house with no roof :smallcool:
oops, i edited it out by mistake
And your right, being a god would be very interesting...

No roof means no defense against falling rocks.

_Zoot_
2008-07-09, 11:55 PM
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm

Scroll down to the "Room of Death."


From now on, im allways makeing the meat sheld walk first :smalleek:

@^ oh... i didn't think of that......

Leon
2008-07-10, 12:48 AM
No roof means no defense against falling rocks.

Falling Rocks do not stop

Chronicled
2008-07-10, 01:00 AM
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm

Scroll down to the "Room of Death."

That is an awesome link. Thanks for providing it.

John Campbell
2008-07-10, 01:12 AM
Yes, Aleax knows you, but your DM doesn't. At best, it's a 50-50 chance. In more realistic world, you have the upper hand, since you know what your character can do better than anyone.
Not necessarily. Optimization skills do vary, and optimization doesn't end when the character sheet is filled out. And the GM is often more experienced than most of the players. There are a couple players in my group who I'm pretty sure I could destroy with their own character, because they don't really understand how to make optimal use of their abilities (I actually had to point out to the ninja that his invisibility power could be used to enable his sudden strike), and our DM is, if anything, better with 3.x mechanics than I.

And with my last PC, I suspect my DM could've beaten me with my own character, not because he had a better grasp of what the character could do, but because he wouldn't have been limited to what the character would do. The PC was a high-level fighter-mage who tended towards buff-and-blast because he was of the opinion that that was how fights were supposed to be fought, and who refused to use the majority of the spells in the schools of enchantment and illusion... but who wasn't a specialist and didn't actually have them banned. A DM running his Aleax would've been entirely free to use more effective strategies involving spells that the actual PC considered too evil or cowardly to use, but nevertheless had in his spellbook (he transcribed every spell he came across into his blessed book, even the ones he wouldn't use).

Strategic initiative is a valuable thing, too. If the Aleax is expecting the fight and controlling the when and where, it can be prepared for it where the original PC isn't.

Leon
2008-07-10, 01:56 AM
That is an awesome link. Thanks for providing it.

Aye, QFT

The mind boggles at some of those

Ixtli
2008-07-10, 02:42 AM
Strategic initiative is a valuable thing, too. If the Aleax is expecting the fight and controlling the when and where, it can be prepared for it where the original PC isn't.

I agree.
And this means that the chances are much worse (for the player) than 50-50.

For example.
If I were an Aleax I'll show up just after a big fight: when my target resources are at least partially depleted.
I'll cast all enhancing spell on myself at a safe distance and if possible I'll talk to my target from a safe position, maybe thanks to a project image spell or similar, and the first spell I cast would be Mordenkainen's Disjunction (unless the contingency has been worded to prevent this).

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 03:47 AM
Why? Maruts only have a Spot of +16, and all the others are even worse. What's a rogue got to fear from that?

Well yeah, the rogue can hide, but he is an Inevitable, he'll find him eventually, and then he can throw that +10d6 sneak attack down the can. I'm saying that combat-wise, rogues suck against Inevitables...


And the GM is often more experienced than most of the players

Well, this doesn't have to be true. My DM does know rules better than me, but I'm much better at playing a wizard than he is.


Strategic initiative is a valuable thing, too. If the Aleax is expecting the fight and controlling the when and where, it can be prepared for it where the original PC isn't.

True. But then it wouldn't be a fair fight...


If I were an Aleax I'll show up just after a big fight: when my target resources are at least partially depleted.

After you're out of spells the DM doesn't need an Aleax to kill you, though.

Crazy Scot
2008-07-10, 07:14 AM
I've always thought the easiest way to stay alive was by using the Steal Life spell (BoVD) on the night of the full moon on someone that can heal Constitution ability damage. You could get back 100+ years in a single night, and cancel the spell whenever you like just by ending your concentration. Plus, no one has to die, and a few Restoration potions later and they're as good as new. It's the closest thing 3.5 has to a potion of youth.

To those considering this option, please allow me to dispel any illusions the multiple posters have given with this. First, the spell Steal Life does not deal ability damage, it deals ability drain. Additionally, it specifically states that the caster effectively gains one week of life for every point of ability drain the spell does. Thus, if you use this power on a creature that is immune to ability drain (not ability damage), you are draining no ability scores, thus you are gaining no benefits!

One of the only good ways around this would be to cast this spell which is an [evil] spell, and then return the target's ability drain with a Restoration spell (which is a Conjuration (healing) spell, and thus not readily available to most arcane casters). Preferably, Greater Restoration, since Restoration only restores ability drain to one ability score, and greater restores ability drain to all of them. And since Steal Life does ability drain to all ability scores, you would need either 6 Restoration spells, or 1 Greater Restoration, if you don't want your target to suffer permanently because you sucked out some of their life.

Now, if you find a creature that can normally heal ability drain (I can't think of any off the top of my head), then you could use Steal Life on them and they could keep healing themselves. Then again, if you find such a creature, probably convincing them to allow you to use them for this purpose will be very difficult, or require you to make a pretty big sacrifice on your part. Just think about it...if you find an evil creature willing to be your sacrifice, they will probably want some sort of service or payment for it. And a good creature would probably want nothing to do with being a willing sacrifice for an [evil] spell.

While the concept using this spell is good, there seem to be a good number of obstacles in the way of using this effectively. Well, using it effectively while not becoming a generally evil person. If you are evil, then you would probably have no problem with just draining your sacrifice for all they are worth and leaving them like that.

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 07:19 AM
If you are evil, then you would probably have no problem with just draining your sacrifice for all they are worth and leaving them like that.

Nobody here is discussing the morality of the Steal Life spell, since it's obviously evil. We're just discussing best ways to be immortal.

Crazy Scot
2008-07-10, 07:23 AM
Nobody here is discussing the morality of the Steal Life spell, since it's obviously evil. We're just discussing best ways to be immortal.

Again, I'm not arguing about that. I was just pointing out that the OP said he was trying to do this for his PC, and most PCs are good. He mentioned the idea of becoming a Lich, so I don't know what his leaning is on the alignment scale, but I was just trying to point out the difficulties with using the spell suggested. If and how it is used, and to what degree it is used, is up to the person using it.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-10, 07:31 AM
If I recall, you can put a Crystal of Demolition (Magic Item Compendium) on your weapon as a rogue and be able to sneak attack constructs. A Golembane Scarab has a similiar effect, if I recall...

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 08:36 AM
^Nope, it just negates their DR.

Tehnar
2008-07-10, 08:57 AM
Isint there a prestige class in BoED that gives near immortality?

i think its called Beloved of Valarian (some chick with unicorns thing). Sorry if this has been mentioned allready.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-10, 09:00 AM
Of course, if your DM sends an aleax after you, you know that you have won: that you have forced your DM into the last phase of desperation short of "rocks fall, you die," and the only thing he can think of that can beat you, as he sits upon the Epic Level Handbook and a stack of Dragon Magazines, crying in frustration, is yourself, but better. And as you stand over the broken body of your god-forged opponent, in the middle of a smoldering crater that used to be a campaign setting, you get up from your spot at the table, move over to the DM screen, and take your rightful place there.

That's how it works, right? :smalltongue:

Chronicled
2008-07-10, 09:13 AM
^Nope, it just negates their DR.

The Demolition Crystal lets you sneak attack constructs, and at the level we're discussing, a rogue better have either it, or easy access to the spell that lets you do the same thing.

Leon
2008-07-10, 09:24 AM
What's the best way to gain immortality?


Don't play in a game i run - No PC is safe

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 10:08 AM
I personally dislike that type of DMing: "I'm the DM I can destroy you no matter how hard you try, I'll just think of something worse, because I'm the DM". They tend to actually punish PCs who try to be smart just to prove that they can screw them up.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-10, 10:24 AM
I personally dislike that type of DMing: "I'm the DM I can destroy you no matter how hard you try, I'll just think of something worse, because I'm the DM". They tend to actually punish PCs who try to be smart just to prove that they can screw them up.

I know (and agree), and yet the Aleax was invented for precisely that kind of DMing, which is what the joke was about.

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 10:38 AM
So, here's the situation I've had:

I have spell mastery feat and I've planned on taking Craft Wondrous Items and spending lots of money on trapping my spellbook, even though I was aware that it probably won't come to that, I wanted to make sure my spellbook is taken care of, since as a Wizard, it's the source of my power, and my character would feel unsafe otherwise, so those were mainly RP reasons. Once I elaborated my plan to my DM he said: You're aware that if I really want to steal your spellbook, few spells and a trap won't stop me?

At that point I just took Arcane Thesis.

I mean, what's the point, ok you're the DM you can do that, it doesn't mean you should. So if I take some precautions he'll actually steal it just so he could show it to me he can...? That just pisses me off.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-10, 12:41 PM
So, here's the situation I've had:

I have spell mastery feat and I've planned on taking Craft Wondrous Items and spending lots of money on trapping my spellbook, even though I was aware that it probably won't come to that, I wanted to make sure my spellbook is taken care of, since as a Wizard, it's the source of my power, and my character would feel unsafe otherwise, so those were mainly RP reasons. Once I elaborated my plan to my DM he said: You're aware that if I really want to steal your spellbook, few spells and a trap won't stop me?

At that point I just took Arcane Thesis.

I mean, what's the point, ok you're the DM you can do that, it doesn't mean you should. So if I take some precautions he'll actually steal it just so he could show it to me he can...? That just pisses me off.

The correct response is: "You're aware that if you really want people to keep playing your game, you'd better have a very good reason. No, 'a very powerful entity wants to' is not a good reason." The DM vs. Players attitude should be crushed whenever possible.

chiasaur11
2008-07-10, 01:10 PM
I know (and agree), and yet the Aleax was invented for precisely that kind of DMing, which is what the joke was about.

Or it was invented to make players invincible.
All you need is a way to gain its singular enemy ability, and you're set.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-10, 01:12 PM
People are forgetting one very important facet of the Aleax. When it arrives, it ennumerates your crimes to you. That sounds an aweful lot like monologing. What is the correct response to a monolgue? SURPRISE ROUND!

Plus, it may have your stats, but you have a cleric buffing you, a fighter with a readied action to block LoE with his body on the Aleax's turn, and a Bard forcing concentration checks with his Perform:slapstick skill. Really, I look at an Aleax as a reward, not a threat.

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 01:21 PM
Also, it's singular enemy ablity in no way stops other spellcasters from dispeling Aleax's buffs or counterspelling...

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-10, 01:57 PM
Plus, it may have your stats, but you have a cleric buffing you, a fighter with a readied action to block LoE with his body on the Aleax's turn, and a Bard forcing concentration checks with his Perform:slapstick skill.

Not neccisarily! There's no reason the entire party can't be gnome illusionists or whatever else they please.

Solo adventures are fully possible, as well!

_Zoot_
2008-07-10, 05:37 PM
So its an Aleax VS You and the rest of your party doing all they can to get in its way...

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-10, 05:52 PM
To those considering this option, please allow me to dispel any illusions the multiple posters have given with this. First, the spell Steal Life does not deal ability damage, it deals ability drain.

It still works (though not for Naberius binders, admittedly.) Ideally, you would want to buff your victims ability scores like crazy and have a cleric use a Wand of Restoration for you. If you have Extraordinary Concentration and either UMD skill or a level in a divine caster class you can even do the whole operation yourself.

You could also choose your target and select for a creature with much higher than normal ability scores, so as to maximize the effectiveness of each Restoration.

Chronos
2008-07-10, 08:01 PM
Are there any restrictions on what kind of creatures Steal Life can target? Could you just raise rats or something, and drain a few every full moon?

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 08:30 PM
Yeah, it has to be a humanoid.

Chronicled
2008-07-10, 08:45 PM
Yeah, it has to be a humanoid.

That just means that you should find a king who's willing to pay you to terminate a few pesky tribes of goblins, and kill two birds with one stone. Repeat as necessary.

Gorbash
2008-07-10, 09:00 PM
Well, it's not the same as actually killing them... You're devouring their life force to unnaturally prolong your life by sacrificing them, so this is more evil, since there's torment and an ulterior motive included. Oh, and it has [evil] descriptor. :smalltongue:

monty
2008-07-10, 11:28 PM
That just means that you should find a king who's willing to pay you to terminate a few pesky tribes of goblins, and kill two birds with one stone. Repeat as necessary.

I have to frown on you for suggesting that.

http://www.vermontguardian.com/images/local/WalmartFrown.jpg

chiasaur11
2008-07-11, 12:15 AM
I have to frown on you for suggesting that.

http://www.vermontguardian.com/images/local/WalmartFrown.jpg

See, they're just suggesting the MOST EVIL course of action. Obviously.

Chronicled
2008-07-11, 12:27 AM
I have to frown on you for suggesting that.

http://www.vermontguardian.com/images/local/WalmartFrown.jpg

You just made my night. That is a great frown.

Keep in mind, this is just a suggestion if you're already going to be casting this evil, evil spell. Just because you're evil, doesn't mean you should be inefficient! Would it be better if it were orcs/gnolls/etc (this asked with your sig in mind)?

monty
2008-07-20, 11:58 AM
You just made my night. That is a great frown.

Keep in mind, this is just a suggestion if you're already going to be casting this evil, evil spell. Just because you're evil, doesn't mean you should be inefficient! Would it be better if it were orcs/gnolls/etc (this asked with your sig in mind)?

The message board went down as I was about to reply to this.

The solution is obvious - elves. With their ten billion subspecies, they can afford to lose a few.

Enlong
2008-07-20, 12:19 PM
Dry Lich. Like a Lich, but you have 5 "Phylacteries".

_Zoot_
2008-07-20, 09:32 PM
The message board went down as I was about to reply to this.

The solution is obvious - elves. With their ten billion subspecies, they can afford to lose a few.

That is a very good idea, some of the other members in my party don't like elves and they might help me........:smallamused:

But then all the elves would hate me, and last time i checked the elves had an army.....

Doresain
2008-07-20, 11:24 PM
go necropolitan wizard/tainted scholar...who cares if big nasty things come after you for being "immortal" (last i checked, undeath was not immortality), your spells have ridiculously high save DCs...

go out and kill a god with a single finger of death spell that has a DC of 100...then assume his portfolio Cyric style

Eskil
2008-07-21, 04:12 PM
The first level of the Incantifier prestige class (Dragon version) gives you immortality at the price of your natural healing.

I may be wrong but I think Magic of Eberron has the Renagade Mastermaker that will turn you into a living construct type.

Casting all your spells stilled and silenced while under a continuos Statue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/statue.htm) spell?

The psionic Body Leech (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a) from Mind's Eye

Chronicled
2008-07-21, 05:06 PM
The Psionic Power True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) is another way (I didn't see it mentioned). There's so many possibilities when using this...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-21, 05:21 PM
New, somewhat unusual idea. Mindrape. It lets you completely re-write their head. Make it exactly the same as yours. It would be Rule 0 what levels and abilities the new one gained, but if it got your mental stats, you'd be able to "live" forever, in the form of an exponentially-increasing number of "yous" being created.

To be fair, this will turn you just a bit evil.:smallamused:

Chronicled
2008-07-21, 05:30 PM
New, somewhat unusual idea. Mindrape. It lets you completely re-write their head. Make it exactly the same as yours. It would be Rule 0 what levels and abilities the new one gained, but if it got your mental stats, you'd be able to "live" forever, in the form of an exponentially-increasing number of "yous" being created.

To be fair, this will turn you just a bit evil.:smallamused:

Wow... I like this. Of course, you know that there's going to be a "I'm Sparticus!" moment. With all the copies of you running around absolutely sure that they are you. (Probably be a bit more like the Tachikomas from Ghost in the Shell when they were having their memories synched up.)

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-21, 06:17 PM
The thing is the way the spell is written you only get to pick a single target per casting... so every time you switch targets you need to cast the spell again. So ironically, the best way to use the Evil spell Steal Life for the purposes of obtaining eternal youth is also possibly the least harmful way to use Steal Life. You use someone that can regenerate or reduce drain, or use items to restore the damage as you do it. You want to keep your subject alive because the spell ends when and if they die, but not before.

And before anyone mentions it: Steal Life kinda sucks as a spell. I have no idea why anyone would go to such great lengths and trouble to drain every last ability point out of an enemy when you could disintegrate them more easily. :smallconfused:

_Zoot_
2008-07-22, 02:12 AM
And before anyone mentions it: Steal Life kinda sucks as a spell. I have no idea why anyone would go to such great lengths and trouble to drain every last ability point out of an enemy when you could disintegrate them more easily. :smallconfused:


To prove a point :smallcool:

Eldan
2008-07-22, 05:39 AM
You all forget the simplest solution: Live on the Astral Plane. It should theoretically also take care of the Maruts, since technically no time passes.

Gorbash
2008-07-22, 06:14 AM
But when you leave Astral Plane, the age catches up with you...

Aquillion
2008-07-22, 12:43 PM
But when you leave Astral Plane, the age catches up with you...You don't even have to live on the Astral Plane. In fact, there's something much easier:

You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
By most reasonable interpretations, suspended animation = not aging, I think. And nothing about the age catching up with you if you go back, either, so if that happens you just cast Astral Projection again (of course, you don't have to go back, ever, as long as your body is safe -- you can astral project yourself into other planes with all your equipment.)

Eldan
2008-07-23, 04:06 AM
Well, yes, but then everyone will call you a cordbaby in Sigil...