OOTS #573 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[NerfTW]

I forget, have they mentioned why Haley doesn't want to go to Greysky city, besides it's implied crime rate?

[hamishspence]

Very nice. Could do with an edit: spped for Speed, snipped for sniped, but other than that, goodnews.

[Emperor Ing]

Very nice. Could do with an edit: spped for Speed, snipped for sniped, but other than that, goodnews.

I noticed spped too. but snipped "might" be correct.

[Uthrac]

Nice. Can't wait to see what happens.

[Yerocha]

Whoa, I can't believe how awful Belkar looks. And Diseased Belkar looks even worse.

But yeah, this could end badly.

[hamishspence]

it might. But when we have people making undiplomatic remarks at each other, we usually call it sniping. Snipping is something done with scissors. Sniping can be done with bows, but this is conversational sniping.

they might have been making snippy remarks when they snipe at each other.

[Istari]

Very intresting, anyone have any idea what Gray Sky City is though?

Edit:Woot First Page

[Girl Wonder]

Hurray, a new comic!

I can't decide whether Celia's initiative is laudable or dangerous. Probably both! Haley DOES seem to be catching 'Roy's Disease' of getting tunnel vision following what she sees as the plot goal (Also laudable and dangerous).

And Belkar's yellowing teeth are creeping me out!

[sikyon]

Oh dear, additional tangent.

[hamishspence]

Fans of SoD will remember Greysky City.

[Lira]

Excellent :D, this is going to be good. I'm guessing some long-running plot hooks are going to be wrapped up soon and I'm looking forward to it. I also liked how Haley's saying the same thing at the beginning at in strip #3.

[Destro_Yersul]

Greysky city? sounds pleasant enough. Especially if you're evil and require mass amounts of grimdark fog and suchlike in order to loot unsuspecting people's corpses in the middle of the night.

[Szilard]

I saw the first typo.
Belker's face was funny.:smallbiggrin:

[The Giant]

Very nice. Could do with an edit: spped for Speed, snipped for sniped, but other than that, goodnews.

"Spped" is an error that I will fix now; "snipped" is correct. To "snip" at one another is to argue, particularly in a passive-aggressive way; it leads to you being snippy. "Sniping" is slightly different.

[Pyro]

Belkar looks really sick right now. I wonder how much worse the Mark of Justice will get. Hopefully they won't get any random encounters...

[Dunesen]

I forget, have they mentioned why Haley doesn't want to go to Greysky city, besides it's implied crime rate?

Read On the Origin of PCs.

Well, Belkar certainly looks like s***. And Greysky City looks ominous, even taking into account that it's nighttime and those clouds all over it could be perfectly natural ones.

Maybe it's because there's no lights coming from the town. Never a good sign.

This really is a well-reasoned method of getting the team into Greysky for

the confrontation with the Thieve's Guild I predicted a few strips ago. And I'm repeating here, I expect it will be resolved here and now, rather than introducing more recurring villains.

[orrion]

I believe Greysky City is where Haley was before OOTS. She was a member of the Thieves' Guild. She left when she realized she couldn't earn nearly enough gold to pay her father's 200kgp ransom because the Guild charged really high fees.

She doesn't want to go back because a) Roy and co. still think she's IN the Thieves' Guild, b) she didn't leave on good terms, so c) bad things could happen when/if she's seen there again.

[hamishspence]

For those of us who read SoD,
Xykon was based on an island off shore during that period, if memory serves me correctly. Right Eye also met with Eugene there to give him Xykon's location.

[Yendor]

Yay! See, Haley and Celia get along just fine when Belkar isn't causing trouble.

[hamishspence]

Ok, haven't seen it used that way before, is all.

[mikeejimbo]

I am really glad to see Haley and Celia getting along.

To the Fanservice Thread, Batman!

And Belkar's last line is hilarious.

[Destro_Yersul]

And Greysky City looks ominous, even taking into account that it's nighttime and those clouds all over it could be perfectly natural ones.

Or maybe all the residents own Sports Utility Carts. :smallbiggrin:

[Kato]

Woohoo, new comic ^^
I kind of get the feeling Celia will get in trouble down there... and B will be even more useless than before... (he seems in a very bad shape) though... hope we'll see soon...

Also note: the girls WANT to help B,for whatever reason, even if they will be annoyed again by him... no abandoning poor Belkar ^^
Also... I think the House of Fanservice will soon have some tribute to the slumber party *cough*

[Oregano]

nar, the Fanservice thread is slow at best.

I hope Belkar get's better, he looks worse than Vaarsuvius.:smallfrown:

[Dallas-Dakota]

Heheh. Awesome Giant!

[dish]

Oh dear. (Otoopcs spoilers)
Celia's going to get into trouble, and Hayley will have to come and help her and that will lead to a confrontation with Crystal and Bozzak. And as we know, Crystal may be an awful thief, but she's really good at killing people.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Yay, a new comic.

Yay, another side quest.

They should be back together sometime by Christmas... 2010.

[Tempest Fennac]

This is ironic considering how I said a while back that I thought Greysky City sounded like a nice place based on the name (I like storms).

[Doug Lampert]

Yay, a new comic.

Yay, another side quest.

They should be back together sometime by Christmas... 2010.This isn't neccessarily a side quest. No one in Greysky is looking for Celia, no one there wants to stop Roy from being resurected. Other than the rules of drama there's no reason she shouldn't succeed, and note that the rules of COMEDY might be well served by having her easily manage this when Haley isn't willing to try (or maybe Haley will have to come pull her out of trouble and deal with the Thieves guild, either way...).

[Mauve Shirt]

Yay comic!
Belkar looks really bad. And it looks like he's delirious in the last panel.
Oh noes, Greysky city.
Why doesn't Haley just tell Celia that there are people down there that'll want to kill her?

[expirement10K14]

I believe Greysky City is where Haley was before OOTS. She was a member of the Thieves' Guild. She left when she realized she couldn't earn nearly enough gold to pay her father's 200kgp ransom because the Guild charged really high fees.

She doesn't want to go back because a) Roy and co. still think she's IN the Thieves' Guild, b) she didn't leave on good terms, so c) bad things could happen when/if she's seen there again.

You should probably spoiler that, as it is from OTOoPC's. Anyway, great comic Giant.

[Hobbes13]

Haley: "So the Boots of Speed were totally powerful, but they were, like, lime green"
Celia: "With your skin tone? Pass!"

Heeeey, that looks familiar!

Comic #3:

Haley: "...so the Boots of Speed were totally powerful, but they were, like, lime green."
V: "Indeed. A most grave conundrum you faced."

:smallbiggrin:

[Pronounceable]

That makes two members of the order messed up. If we count Roy as messed up, that makes half the Order.

Is Belkar just being cutesy to Mr Scruffy, or is he suffering mentally as well? And Belkar Is Being Cutesy. The end is nigh!

[Calabask]

Here's my theory.

Haley's likely worried, because if theres on thing theieves like, it's gold. And if the Thieves guild fees were high, and Haley didn't exactly leave the theieves guild, then she owes them quite alot of gold I figure, especially with the likelihood of interest invovled.

[Gamerlord]

Sweet, this one has officially made me want to buy OTOOPC.
Also, belkar has probably gone cuckoo as of now.

[wzeller]

Oh dear, additional tangent.

Surely you jest.

You can't possibly actually consider an attempt to get Roy raised to be a tangent. We've only been waiting for it for 129 strips so far.

I get the feeling that if they said, "Okay, looks like in tomorrow's strip we'll finally have our last show-down with Xykon and get that snarl fixed up and meet Monstersan in the light for tea," you'd still complain about tangents.

Great strip. Light on the yucks, but definitely moving the story along nicely.

w

[Benjerman]

Yay! Roy might actually get resurrected soon!

[chiasaur11]

New comic!
Man, it's nice to see it. And...
Really, I don't have much else at this point.
Cuts the Kobold bickering at least.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Sigh.

And the para-elemental just gets dumber.

Still, nice comic.

[NerfTW]

It's not a tangent when it pertains directly to two plot points:

Roy being raised.
And
Haley's past and the circumstances surrounding her father. (Can't believe I missed that connection)


Also, this is probably one of the "too spoilerific" backstories mentioned in one of the commentaries.

[Fitzclowningham]

I was trying to figure out what was creeping me out so much about Belkar, and then it hit me: his teeth are just the slightest bit yellow. Nice touch, Rich.

As for what comes next,
is it just me, or is Haley having to go undercover into town to rescue Celia about the easiest OoTS prediction ever? She can't go into town because she dissed the Guild, therefore, she has to do exactly that.

Having said that out loud, Celia's trip to Greysky City will be quick and uneventful.

[Bendal]

Well at least Mr. Scruffy still likes Belkar. Maybe he feeds him birds and stuff.

As for the lime green Boots of Speed, the PC's in my campaign found a nice frilly, lacy Belt of Strength +6. Not sure which male PC is wearing it, but I know one of them is...

[Robert de Bruce]

Yay! Roy might actually get resurrected soon!



I dunno it seems like the opening of, not a side quest but a side story which will explain why Haley doesn't like the city (besides the obvious reason of it being dangerous or at least appearing to be dangerous) I wouldn't get my hopes up, if anything celia might find a crooked cleric who will bring Roy back but as a zombie or something like that

[Angel in Black]

Oh god. I think I know how Belkar's going to snuff it permanently.

He looks like he's aging at an accelerated rate, and he's acting senile. Two and two.

[King of Nowhere]

Finally a new comic! I was suffering from acute update deficiency. I already went through the phase when look for update every couple of hour with a sream of pain when I didn't find it, I don't wanna know what will come after that.

[hamishspence]

Origin spoiler

It has been a while since Haley left. Are the thieves guild likely to still be after her? And they might only be on her case if she thieves in the city without their permission

[SteveMB]

Oh noes, Greysky city.
Why doesn't Haley just tell Celia that there are people down there that'll want to kill her?

Perhaps she doesn't want to risk having the rest of the OotS learn that she lied about being in good standing with the Thieves' Guild.

Or maybe it's old secretive habits biting her in the butt.


Origin spoiler

It has been a while since Haley left. Are the thieves guild likely to still be after her? And they might only be on her case if she thieves in the city without their permission

Probably -- that's the sort of thing where they'd think it's important to provide an example to others who might be thinking of running out on them.

[Fitzclowningham]

Does anyone think Celia has enough cash to pay for Roy to be raised?

[Bitzeralisis]

Belkar is just... wow.

[Shatteredtower]

Let me see if I get this straight... Belkar is better at passing Listen checks when he's sick than when he's well?

I know a number of people think he's loopy, based on his dialogue, but it doesn't seem out of the ordinary. Perhaps people see the facial expression and hear delusional where they'd ordinarily see sarcasm? One thing is for sure: Belkar's capacity for causing trouble cannot be diminished by mere incapacitating illnesses and other such curses. :smallwink:

Could be an interesting week. Glad to see we're getting into some backstory again.

[aliron]

I'm starting to feel a little bad for the Belkster.

[Holammer]

If Belkar's health continues to deteriorate like this... "my preeeecious" :smallbiggrin:

[Remirach]

I hate it when I'm half-right. I had been dead convinced there was no way in hell they were going to make it to Cliffport without a side-trip to Greysky, but I had been sure it would be Belkar that ran off with the cart, and that the trip to Greysky would be accidental. Of course, back then I had no idea the MoJ was going to go off...

I, too, am liking the girly-bonding that goes on between Celia and Haley. It's a rather shallow thing right now, but it's nice to see that they'd probably be good friends if it weren't for Belkar, and CG Haley being pressured by LG Celia to "take responsibility for him."

How will this trip go down? The most obvious scenario seems to be that Celia and Belkar will wind up in trouble, necessitating Haley come rescue them, and run afoul of the Thieves' Guild. Perhaps C&B even accidentally reveal their association with her and will be used as bait for a trap. Aside from the obvious problems of the Guild, I wonder if they'll find a cleric and have it be revealed that Belkar's illness isn't natural? And who knows, for all of Haley's reluctance, perhaps they WILL find a Cleric in town to raise Roy.

Which isn't even to count any other surprising people that may show up in town. NALE has at least one level in Rogue, as I recall...

[Bongos]

Those are some pretty big buildings there in Grey Sky city, like high rises.

Seems like it really is a city.

...and I like diseased, delirious too sick to move Belkar. Looks like he will be even more comic relief this way.

[Majorman]

Oh my, I just realized that I'm far more concerned about Belkster's condition than Roy's. I mean Roy might be the LG protagonist guy, but, being dead, he does not not suffer. While the halfling is not feeling himself anymore and if he dies, then the senseless (and sometimes pointless) murders will cease - that won't be fun. But casting Remove disease on him in the first town just won't work because it will be too easy. I'm afraid Belkar's killing spree will be hindered for quite some time :smallfrown:

[Alex Warlorn]

Celia wanting into that city is pure suicide. Guess love DOES suck away at your intelligence score. And Belkar is too sick to realize it, but he's gonna likely get killed and raised as a zombie by the first cleric who agrees to 'help' Celia (which in this case help means sacrificing her on a pagen alter). (when people stop using the term witch hunt, I'll stop using the term pagen alter).

However, since Belkar is destine to play a part in V's death, the sick little thing of death is likely to get out of this alive, can't say the same about Celia.

Since Celia is a paraelemental, does that mean if she's killed, her soul is destroyed too?

One can argue that Belkar played a role already with V's birds falling down, likely driving V deeper into mania, but since it was our thief who shot them down, it's unlikely.


I wonder what V's husband/wife would say about all this. I know Elves are likely akin to long term relationships (abroad for two years is likely a month's vacation to them!).... hey... we never saw V's wife/hubby even in the pre-history material.

V's not the type to make it all up.... so I wonder what THEIR story is.

[Warren Dew]

Greysky City looks ominous, even taking into account that it's nighttime and those clouds all over it could be perfectly natural ones.

They look more like smog to me. I guess it goes with the high rises.


I kind of get the feeling Celia will get in trouble down there... and B will be even more useless than before...

My bet is that Belkar will be the one to get Celia into trouble. It would be funny if Mr. Scruffy was the one that got them all into trouble, though.

[Werewindlefr]

Celia's a candidate for the Darwin Awards. She too is becoming more a liability than an asset.
It's not like she hasn't been warned. In extreme situations such as the one Haley and the OotS is, it would be a good idea for Haley to only about getting Roy back. Saving Celia would be a waste of precious, very precious time and resources (not to mention Belkar).

[Warren Dew]

Celia wanting into that city is pure suicide. Guess love DOES suck away at your intelligence score.

All she knows is that it's a city that Haley doesn't like. Last time she took unilateral action, it was to get people out of Azure city, and she was right that time. She's probably overconfident now, but from her point of view, what's she's doing is not unreasonable.

That said, that she goes off on her own without telling Haley kind of illustrates that the tension between them is not really Belkar's fault, no matter what impression Celia and Haley have. I hate to defend Belkar on anything, but I have to be fair here.

Belkar's pretty safe, but Celia is at real risk here, since she's an NPC. I can see that Celia will be the next character to attract "pro" and "anti" camps.

[Forealms]

Celia's a candidate for the Darwin Awards. She too is becoming more a liability than an asset.
It's not like she hasn't been warned. In extreme situations such as the one Haley and the OotS is, it would be a good idea for Haley to only about getting Roy back. Saving Celia would be a waste of precious, very precious time and resources (not to mention Belkar).

Mmm... I disagree. Celia CAN handle herself in a fight, and I figure she'll even initiate a fight in self-preservation or when made very, very angry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html).

[Alysar]

That makes two members of the order messed up. If we count Roy as messed up, that makes half the Order.

Is Belkar just being cutesy to Mr Scruffy, or is he suffering mentally as well? And Belkar Is Being Cutesy. The end is nigh!

He isn't being cutesy, he's being snarky. He's being sarcastically cute.

[hamishspence]

interesting hypothesis: maybe the halfling who told Haley that her boss, while publicly letting her go, was privately getting ready to send assassins, was lying? Maybe her ex-boss has bigger fish to fry. Or has been replaced. But if Crystal replaces him Haley might be in deeper trouble.

[Antacid]

Another reason why Greysky city is bad:

The hobgoblins in Azure city have already set up trading relations with it. The crates visible in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html) are marked as being imported from there.

This may or may not become relevant. It's possible that Redcloak's posted a reward for the Order Of the Stick that people in Greysky will know about. Celia and Belkar might even run into Hobgoblin merchants.

[Yendor]

Notice that the sign says Greysky City is one mile away. If Belkar isn't noticed, Celia will think she set off his Mark of Justice (which, of course, happened already).

[Ninja]

a new comic? i don't believe it... you know.. it's hard to sleep when you have wings.... and i think B's turning into Shojo!!!! and i don't mean the private ( normal Shojo), but in the public (crazy Shojo)... in a year he'll become Shojo, stop being Belkar and prophecy fulfilled... :smallbiggrin:


However, since Belkar is destine to play a part in V's death, the sick little thing of death is likely to get out of this alive, can't say the same about Celia.

How so? Because that Oracle said : "And as for the elf?".... how do you know that he didn't mean "And as for the elf, well, you won't cause his death, but doesn't matter, since you caused the death of Roy, Miko, and her horse so your prophecy is fulfilled?"... or something like that...

My predictions
B is so sick he starts running around GSC and causes trouble, Thieves guild catches them (Mr. Scruffy gets away :smallsmile:) while tying them up, B pukes in the mouth of one of Haley's "colleagues", Scruffy gets to Haley, she follows him, bust's in, gets em out and they run away, or she gets captured and something crazy happens (someone raises Roy, Scruffy kicks their asses, etc.)

[Lunaya]

Oh god. I think I know how Belkar's going to snuff it permanently.

He looks like he's aging at an accelerated rate, and he's acting senile. Two and two.
I think the pronounced cheekbones are due to the fact that he's rapidly losing weight. After all, he likely hasn't been able to eat in quite some time. If Belkar was visibly aging, Haley would probably figure out that this isn't just the flu. As for the "senility", I think he's running a fever and therefore, not making much sense. Did you see the sweat drops?

Yay comic!
Belkar looks really bad. And it looks like he's delirious in the last panel.

Seriously, does anyone have a thermometer? :smalleek:

On another note, does anyone else find it adorable that Mr. Scruffy is curled up next to Belkar's sleeping bag?

[RandomPlayer]

Did anyone else notice the similarity between this comic and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) comic? Check out the first line in each of them.

[Fitzclowningham]

Maybe Belkar's not delirious. Maybe he overheard Haley talking about Greysky City, and thinks that a "dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets" is Happy Fun Sunshine Land..

[Clertar]

I dislike the city's name. It's so superhero-ish sounding... Even just calling it "Graysky City" could help.

No city name can beat Easthaven, tho.

[SteveMB]

Notice that the sign says Greysky City is one mile away. If Belkar isn't noticed, Celia will think she set off his Mark of Justice (which, of course, happened already).

Belkar was sleeping on the ground, and he's sick enough that I doubt he climbed into the cart under his own power. Most likely, Celia knows that he's in the cart because she helped him get there -- she's lugging both him and Roy's body because they both need a cleric to be healed and rezzed, respectively.

[Lunaya]

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that. Celia knows that Belkar can't be more than a mile from Roy without setting off the Mark. She likely wouldn't forget that as she takes Roy's body into the city. Here I had just assumed that Belkar was a stowaway and that he had somehow managed to haul himself into the cart.

[Warren Dew]

Maybe he overheard Haley talking about Greysky City, and thinks that a "dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets" is Happy Fun Sunshine Land..

My assumption was that "happy fun sunshine land" was Belkar's normal sarcastic way of referring to the city. I'm sure he overheard Haley and Celia - why would he have stowed away in the cart other than to get the remove disease they were talking about? Is there some other reason for him to want to go to Greysky City?

The illness can't be very bad yet - it's only enough to make Belkar's sarcasm a bit lame. When he starts doing without using sarcasm at all, then we can start worrying about him.

Edit: okay, if Belkar knew the city was more than a mile away, he might have another reason to be in the cart. The idea of Celia having put him in the cart is interesting, but then why does he want the cat to stay quiet?

[SteveMB]

Edit: okay, if Belkar knew the city was more than a mile away, he might have another reason to be in the cart. The idea of Celia having put him in the cart is interesting, but then why does he want the cat to stay quiet?

I think he's just babbling because he's feverish and delirious.

[Ninja]

Edit: okay, if Belkar knew the city was more than a mile away, he might have another reason to be in the cart. The idea of Celia having put him in the cart is interesting, but then why does he want the cat to stay quiet?

maybe Celia told him to be quiet, so they wouldn't wake :haley:

[Castamir]

And don't forget:
Crystal looks hawt.

[Aahz]

Did anyone else notice the similarity between this comic and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) comic? Check out the first line in each of them.

Yes, that's certainly intentional. The joke is that Celia is much more of a girly-girl than V is. And I believe the boots show up at least one other time (with Miko?)

[Dangerous Rex]

Am I the only person who thinks that Belkar looks like he is channeling Heath Ledger's Joker?

"Why so serious?"

[Seraph]

Edit: okay, if Belkar knew the city was more than a mile away, he might have another reason to be in the cart. The idea of Celia having put him in the cart is interesting, but then why does he want the cat to stay quiet?

because he's in no condition to fight off the inevitable murderers and thieves?

[Mercenary Pen]

Question is, now that Belkar has set off the mark of justice, can he kill people without suffering additional ill effects?

Also, I suspect Belkar is only referring to Greysky City as 'Happy Fun Sunshine Land' because he's uncertain where exactly they are... I mean, you try lying prone in the bed of a cart, seriously ill for an undefined period of time, then see about telling me where you are... I mean, by the sound of it, Haley and Celia have been talking around the subject in any case, and probably trying to leave Belkar out of it as much as possible...

[Ninjamuffin]

Ah, Celia, endangering yourself and those around you with your inability to listen to those with more experience and your lack of patience. Kids these days, think they know everything.......
Eh, makes for an interesting time, at least.

[Mr. Goodwraith]

I see three possibilities for Belkar's statement in the last panel:

1. He's being serious. He really does think about Greysky City in those terms. This would imply that he snuck into the cart under his own power.

2. He's making a sarcastic joke at Celia's expense. He could have crawled into the cart himself or been assisted by Celia.

3. He's fruitlooped out of his gourd. This would imply that Celia put him in the cart.

I vote #2, although the other choices both have points to recommend them.

[Ninja]

I see three possibilities for Belkar's statement in the last panel:

1. He's being serious. He really does think about Greysky City in those terms. This would imply that he snuck into the cart under his own power.

or he thinks of it that way, but Celia did put him in the cart. i fail to see how his thought about GSC imply he got in the cart alone


or, another possibility: C put him in the cart (or he crawled in, but i doub't it), he has fruitlooped out of his gourd, thinks of GSC in those terms, and is making a sarcastic joke at Celia's expense.

[Emo Samurai]

I don't think he's making a sarcastic joke. "Happy Fun Sunshine Land" doesn't make fun of anything, and "magic fairy" is way to tame of an insult for Belkar to use, ever. And Celia probably didn't bring him along; she doesn't mention Belkar among the reasons for unknowingly risking life and limb.

[Ramien]

I don't think it's fair to blame Celia for her actions yet. Haley's reasons for avoiding the city were very vague, so without something more specific, Celia has no real reason to avoid it (remember, the para-elemental is a para-legal, so she does have a bit more practice taking care of herself than Haley's assuming - those law schools can be killer).

[Ninja]

i think she probaly did. cause of the MoJ, and :belkar: cant stay 1 mile from Roy. she may not like him, but she is too good to just activate the MoJ on a sick person ( she thinks he just has a flu). and besides, i doubt it :belkar: could of gotten in the cart himself, without her noticing...

[deworde]

I see three possibilities for Belkar's statement in the last panel:

1. He's being serious. He really does think about Greysky City in those terms. This would imply that he snuck into the cart under his own power.

2. He's making a sarcastic joke at Celia's expense. He could have crawled into the cart himself or been assisted by Celia.

3. He's fruitlooped out of his gourd. This would imply that Celia put him in the cart.

I vote #2, although the other choices both have points to recommend them.
Hooray! New comic.
It's clearly #3. Look at those eyes, he's lost it. He's in the state of mind where disease meets insanity and tells you that you're a cartoon walrus.

[kakos]

Oh god. I think I know how Belkar's going to snuff it permanently.

He looks like he's aging at an accelerated rate, and he's acting senile. Two and two.

I think you all are taking the prophecy far too literally.

The prophecy regarding Roy being killed by Belkar was fulfilled, but in a highly spurious manner and certainly not the way it was expected to be fulfilled. So, why does everyone expect Belkar's death prophecy to be fulfilled in such a pedestrian manner? The Oracle says that Belkar will "draw his last breath"; perhaps he has an artistic moment and draws a picture of himself dying.

[MisterM]

I am really glad to see Haley and Celia getting along.

To the Fanservice Thread, Batman!

WHAHAHA!!!

[Calabask]

That, actually, is a very good point that I had not considered.

[Jammeez]

NOOOO! Haley is alone! :eek:

Not that she's not capable, but it's never good when the party members are left alone. :sigh:

[Zeku]

1. "Be very quiet Mr Scruffy"

2. Belkar is evil and thus likes the possibility that a evil town presents.

3. Celia wouldn't want a double liability like the sick Belkar, since she probably feels self-sufficient, and intends no harm to anyone.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that Celia is aware that Belkar is in the cart. Belkar is just continuing to be evil in spite of his illness.

[Ninja]

@ Zeku - yes there is reason. remember that C is good. like, don;t throw chocolate cuz some puppy might eat it and die. she might consider it too evil too leave Belkar and take away Roy, thus activating the MoJ (she doesn't know she activated it). and realy, how hard is it to miss a puking and whining halfling in a cart you're pulling? even for an NPC?

[Red XIV]

For those who are assuming Celia is helpless, remember, she does have levels in sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html). And being unwilling to kill doesn't prevent her from inflicting pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html).

[disorder]

I won't impugn Celia's intelligence for going into Greysky City -- her reasons are good, and Haley's argument really didn't make much sense. If anything, I'd say Haley screwed up by backsliding into her old secretive ways; she would have been more convincing if she'd told Celia her real reasons for avoiding the city (which, for now, remain an OotPCs spoiler.)

However, Celia's execution of her plan is less than brilliant. She's got frickin' wings! She could fly into the city, find a cleric (if one is available), and fly the cleric back out to Haley's camp -- maybe after offering to play a little extra for the slight inconvenience. If things turn ugly, as Haley warned her they might, she could just take to the air and escape.

Instead, she's slowing herself way down by dragging the cart, making it less likely she can find a cleric by daybreak (since she'll be covering a lot less ground), and leaving herself no way to flee from trouble without abandoning Roy. Finally, she's either knowingly saddling herself with Belkar, or (as far as she knows) risking setting off his MoJ by moving Roy's corpse too far away.

Until now, I've seen Celia as the group's token sane person, reminding Haley that the "adventurers' mentality" is, from a civilian's perspective, pretty skewed. But this time, she really didn't think things through.

[jmucchiello]

So does Haley wallop Celia a) for not listening, or b) leaving her asleep, alone in the middle of nowhere?

[Ninja]

@disorder - it's love. that's what makes her not-think... :smallbiggrin:

[LordSintax]

hmmmm...... delirious Belkar in a city. Is anyone but me suddenly VERY worried?:smallfrown:

[Red XIV]

So does Haley wallop Celia a) for not listening, or b) leaving her asleep, alone in the middle of nowhere?
There's also wallopping herself for letting it happen. The others aren't supposed to sneak away unnoticed from the Rogue, that's totally backwards!

[Deathtouched]

Just one more reason Haley should drop the foolish fey as a friend. Silly Celia, dark threatening cities are for bloodthirsty cutthroats. :smallfrown:

[Ledrug]

I think you all are taking the prophecy far too literally.

The prophecy regarding Roy being killed by Belkar was fulfilled, but in a highly spurious manner and certainly not the way it was expected to be fulfilled. So, why does everyone expect Belkar's death prophecy to be fulfilled in such a pedestrian manner? The Oracle says that Belkar will "draw his last breath"; perhaps he has an artistic moment and draws a picture of himself dying.

I'm afarid you completely missed the point of that prophecy and the last conversation between Oracle and Belkar. Oracle knew full well that the prophecy would be fullfilled by Belkar killing him, while the "you caused Roy's death" was just his vain attempt of bluffing out of getting killed -- which he also knew wouldn't work, hence the building of the village and schedule of the raise dead.

So far Oracle's foreknowledge of future that can be verified are all proven correct: identifying and locating Xykon (for OotS's first victory over him); Haley's getting her voice back; knowing neither of the two gates Roy asked would be Xykon's next target; his own death. In hindsight, his predictions were all pretty unambiguous, if not all that helpful up front. Thus when he says Belkar will draw his last breath ever, we do have a strong cause to believe it will be the end of the vicious halfling.

Regarding the "Belkar turned into some undead" interpretation of the "drawing last breath" statement elsewhere on the forum: Belkar has a thug-like mentality, so even if he does get raised as some kind of undead, said undead just won't be important enough for the story or the world, like Xykon is. Dead or undead, once Belkar ceases to be significant, what difference does it make?

[rosebud]

Perhaps she doesn't want to risk having the rest of the OotS learn that she lied about being in good standing with the Thieves' Guild.Belkar would not (1) care or (2) remember. So that is a non-issue with him. Celia was not there when this came up, and as a LG character, she would not object, either. Ergo, this is a non-issue. The "they want to kill me" aspect seems to hold stronger weight.


Or maybe it's old secretive habits biting her in the butt.Probably. :smallsmile: Plus the "I have a Julie Andrews and a vomit generator in Vice City" aspect is probably not too appealing.


Belkar is better at passing Listen checks when he's sick than when he's well?The Story is a powerful bonus generator. :smallbiggrin:


I'm starting to feel a little bad for the Belkster.*Stab!* Okay, you should feel better now.


Oh my, I just realized that I'm far more concerned about Belkster's condition than Roy's.*Stab* (Don't worry. There's plenty of them to go around. :smallbiggrin:)


(when people stop using the term witch hunt, I'll stop using the term pagen alter)Howabout "pagan altar"? (And I'm not usually a spelling nut, but unless you talk about "which hunt", your comment makes no sense.)


Celia's a candidate for the Darwin Awards.Cliffport is crappy, too. They do not like magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html) as much. Also, given that she is trying to resurrect her boyfriend, she's trying to get one prerequisite to future Celias taken care of. It's not completely Darwin worthy in this world if you try to save your lover and heal your psychotic but somewhat competent travel companion. Keep in mind that she can both fly and apparate as well as use lightning spells (she was a guard, after all), so she's on the new side but not completely hopeless.


it would be a good idea for Haley to only [worry] about getting Roy back. Saving Celia would be a waste of precious, very precious time and resources (not to mention Belkar).You hate Celia, I get it. But you're better off complaining about Celia leaving Haley alone and asleep. If Grey Sky is so dangerous, it was Haley's fault for not leaving a watch. If Celia was on watch and abandoned it, that would have been inexcusable. But with no watch and Haley the commander, the fault is Haley's.


the tension between them is not really Belkar's fault, no matter what impression Celia and Haley have.Both causes is also reasonable to assume.


Belkar's pretty safe, but Celia is at real risk here, since she's an NPC.Let's see... kill off Celia. That's useful, how? Also, she does have several useful survival skills and serious motivation.


Haley is alone! (...) it's never good when the party members are left alone.So true. Good point. And her fault for not setting watch.


The others aren't supposed to sneak away unnoticed from the Rogue, that's totally backwards!Hee hee. :smallsmile:


Just one more reason Haley should drop the foolish fey as a friend. Silly Celia, dark threatening cities are for bloodthirsty cutthroats. :smallfrown:*Stab* Ahhh, I feel much better now.

[Morgan Wick]

Not even bothering to read beyond the first page. I can't get my laptop screen replaced a second time. I will do a double-check after posting and issue a second post.

I really would have expected this coming after a quick trip to look at the goings-on of the Linear Guild, Team Evil, or O-Chul. I'm also not ruling out Burlew leaving this as a cliff-hanger while zipping off to one of those groups.

It's entirely possible this is the source of a SECOND split of the OOTS: Celia and Belkar still can't get Roy resurrected or the OOTS contacted, and Haley can't catch up to them. It's also possible this leads to:
*Haley getting into trouble chasing after Celia.
*Celia and Belkar contact the OOTS and Roy may be resurrected, but the V/Elan/Durkon contingent, and possibly the entire in-exile leadership of Azure City, has to go to Greysky to find, and subsequently rescue, Haley. (Don't ask me yet how this affects Therkla's situation.)
*The OOTS/Azure alliance find Haley and possibly secure an alliance with Greysky to retake Azure City. (By this point we're a good distance past 600.)
In other words, this is the most optimistic I've been about the short-term chances of reunion, resurrection, and retaking in a while. And I'm not even terribly concerned about Roy's attempts to contact Haley being pointless, as long as he gets to keep his memories on resurrection, because he now has memories of all the events in Sunken Valley/Lickmyorangeballshalfling. I still think there are plot holes in it, but...

[Jammeez]

BTW, did anyone else catch the repeat of Haley's first line in strip#3? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) Has she told this story within hearing of the readers more than twice? :smallamused:

[Coke_Can64]

Yipe, Belkar's gone...

Celia (Hmf, where's that smilie when you need it) possibly hasn't seen :belkar: in the wagon, I can't see the image of Celia actually bothering to put :belkar: into the wagon. I guess that :belkar: has managed to climb into the wagon (or maybe use his ring of jumping +10 :smallconfused: ) to get into the wagon?
Ick, for my over-use of the :belkar: smiley,the word "Wagon" and Belkar's FACE... something is really wrong...

[EDIT]: Also the Giant is seen using the word "Snippy" also in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html) comic.

[the_tick_rules]

Greysky city, has OOTS been there before?

[Starscream]

Mmm... I disagree. Celia CAN handle herself in a fight, and I figure she'll even initiate a fight in self-preservation or when made very, very angry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html).

Not to mention that she now has at least one level in Lawyer. I can't think of anything the population of Greysky would fear more than a flying magical lawyer.

[Ruduen]

The only thing that comes to my mind when I see Belkar's current condition is how he's starting to seem like a really odd alley-loitering-slightly-neurotic-person. That's not exactly new, except he can't really fight this time. Or.... Can he?

I mean, it's not like mental instability's ever stopped him before, and his physical condition (Insert Height Joke Here) has never been a problem in the past, so it'll be interesting to see how he acts in the city.

And sadly, I doubt Haley's got too many ranks in disguise, so she better be ready to deal with any situations that might come up.

After all, if it's a guild, that means that members will be pretty much everywhere in the city. She can hide really well, but she can't exactly drag a large cart and the current party members at the same time, so that could make things tricky. So, chances are, we'll see some kind of confrontation. Of course, it's difficult to tell how they'll react to her situation. Especially her current gold-lessness.

[PhallicWarrior]

Belkar is... poorly.

Celia is being an idiot.

Haley is... *snore*

This is the first time I've commented on a comic while under the influence of Benadryl. (Also the last.)

[disorder]

The only thing that comes to my mind when I see Belkar's current condition is how he's starting to seem like a really odd alley-loitering-slightly-neurotic-person. That's not exactly new, except he can't really fight this time. Or.... Can he?
dun dun DUN!!!!

[Demon Slayer]

I see three possibilities for Belkar's statement in the last panel:

1. He's being serious. He really does think about Greysky City in those terms. This would imply that he snuck into the cart under his own power.

2. He's making a sarcastic joke at Celia's expense. He could have crawled into the cart himself or been assisted by Celia.

3. He's fruitlooped out of his gourd. This would imply that Celia put him in the cart.

I vote #2, although the other choices both have points to recommend them.

Number one is my best bet cause Belkar looks really messed up. Seirioussly his looks really creepy.:smallannoyed:

[Aerysil]

Sumbuddy's gettin in twubba!!!

[VForVaarsuvius]

Oh gosh, Belkar's delirious. Twelve Gods, help us.:smalleek:

I have to say, I definitely wonder how this will turn out...

[delguidance]

Love this comic.
Okay so I'm white fonting my spoiler ideas

What if Belkar does kill while sick, and it raises his level, and he gets a house ruled save from the MoJ?

There's got to be some way out of this where Belkar comes out on top.

[Lunaya]

Yeah. I think Belkar is completely out of it and really thinks that Celia is some sort of magic fairy. I'm guessing that Celia didn't want to activate Belkar's Mark so she took him with her on the condition that he be very quiet.

[delguidance]

Oh oh oh I think I totally know because where have...

Nale Sabine and Thog been? They'll at least have a cameo.

See if they don't.

[Ozymandous]

Oh my, I just realized that I'm far more concerned about Belkster's condition than Roy's. I mean Roy might be the LG protagonist guy, but, being dead, he does not not suffer. While the halfling is not feeling himself anymore and if he dies, then the senseless (and sometimes pointless) murders will cease - that won't be fun. But casting Remove disease on him in the first town just won't work because it will be too easy. I'm afraid Belkar's killing spree will be hindered for quite some time :smallfrown:

Umm, I hope Belkar grows worse sooner rather than later. I find the comic has revolved around him entirely too much lately considering how D&D typically handles LG or NG types associating with CE types (usually they don't stick together).

Actually I'd like to get Roy back and get the gang more together in general, or at least start working that direction. Belkar doesn't look any worse than Varsuvius did when we last saw him.

[eastpaw]

First off, great comic! I've been following it for quite a while now.


"Spped" is an error that I will fix now; "snipped" is correct. To "snip" at one another is to argue, particularly in a passive-aggressive way; it leads to you being snippy. "Sniping" is slightly different.

Actually, hamishspence was right about snip/snipe/snippy.

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary:

snip:
1. to cut or cut off with or as if with shears or scissors
2. to make a short quick cut with or as if with shears or scissors

snipe:
1. to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
2. to aim a carping or snide attack

snippy:
1. short-tempered, snappish
2. unduly brief or curt
3. putting on airs

[Vanguard]

Woah, Belkar has gone Completely nut's, and so has Celia. Haley's gonna have ta go save her buttox now...Kinda sucks.

[Vanguard]

HOOOOO FREK, I just thought of something, maybe Celia will die, thus ending up where all good Fairy's go, thus seeing Roy, thus making him freak-out, and Haley as well, what also sucks is if that happens, there gonna have [B]two[B] people to raise instead of one.

[Remirach]

For some reason I always thought Greysky City was some kind of allusion to Seattle... not that it's known for a high crime rate, or anything, but you get to see the sun, what, 75 days of the year?

I really LOVE the idea that GSC might be one of the nations Redcloak's working on establishing trade relations with. Of course, any plot that could eventually involve Redcloak makes me happy, but even if it's one of his underlings hanging around, it could be a useful opportunity for the group to learn intel.

You know, while you might call Celia stupid for not heeding Haley's extremely vague warnings, I think Haley's insistence on not telling her the REAL reason she won't go into the city is itself somewhat selfish. Roy wouldn't hire someone who wasn't in good standing with the Guild. He was afraid of "assassins" coming after people who hired "scabs." It may have kept Celia away from the town if Haley'd told the truth, but Roy would be certain to hear about it later, and then Haley might be in danger of having her OOTS-membership revoked. I don't exactly blame her, but when she wakes up I wonder if she'll feel guilty, especially if the others get in trouble.

[David Argall]

OK, those arguing that V is female get a minor pull as we see Haley repeating her story from #3 and verifying that it is a girly set of reasoning, which means she was treating V as female at the time. Since Haley is the non-elf most likely to know V’s sex, this is no small thing. Still, it is just Haley’s opinion and we do not know how well founded that is. Moreover, V’s response in #3 is sexually ambiguous. It fits female most easily, but it also fits a male who was only vaguely listening to a woman chatter and simply stuck in a comment that seemed likely to cover the fact he wasn’t listening.
Still, score one for the V=female crowd.

Presumptive theory of the moment: Origin Haley starts out by quitting a thieves guild. The city is not identified, but Greysky is supported by a good deal of evidence. In particular from the book, we know Roy had been to see the Oracle in the South and was on his way North to the Redmountain Hills. This puts him travelling right past Greysky and would allow him to pick up Haley, Elan, Belkar, and V in some village not far from Greysky.
We now have Haley showing familiarity with Greysky, and a major reluctance to enter it, which fits since she was warned she would be marked for death soon after she left the guild.
Somebody, or somebodies, is going to need rescue. The Linear Guild may also be involved some way.



I won't impugn Celia's intelligence for going into Greysky City -- her reasons are good, and Haley's argument really didn't make much sense.
Her argument has a good deal of force to it. “I’m the expert here, and I say it’s a bad idea.” Now the expert is wrong at times, and sometimes is no expert at all, but it is definitely dangerous not taking the expert’s opinion.



However, Celia's execution of her plan is less than brilliant. She's got frickin' wings! She could fly into the city, find a cleric (if one is available), and fly the cleric back out to Haley's camp…
Instead, she's slowing herself way down by dragging the cart, making it less likely she can find a cleric by daybreak (since she'll be covering a lot less ground), and leaving herself no way to flee from trouble without abandoning Roy.
Her chance of finding a cleric by dawn and getting him back to camp is pretty zeroish. She really can’t supply a reason that will get him out of bed. And what reason does she have to think Haley will stay in one place? If Haley has Roy, she has good reason to just treat Celia as deserting and continue towards Cliffport. If Celia takes Roy, Haley will either stay in place or will enter Greysky herself.



Finally, she's either knowingly saddling herself with Belkar, or (as far as she knows) risking setting off his MoJ by moving Roy's corpse too far away.
It seems most likely she was just willing to set off the MOJ. She gives no sign of being aware of Belkar, who seems to be trying to hide. Apparently, Belkar is delirious enough to think Celia is doing something that can help him and just snuck onto the cart.
It seems rather unkind of Celia to endanger Belkar this way, but she has a boyfriend to revive, and that may have made her forget about Belkar.



Until now, I've seen Celia as the group's token sane person, reminding Haley that the "adventurers' mentality" is, from a civilian's perspective, pretty skewed.
A comedy does not need any sane characters. Indeed, it does better without them. When a sober voice is needed, they can take turns being half-way sane when the others are being totally nuts. & Celia has been shown to be as crazy as the others several times.



Another reason why Greysky city is bad:

The hobgoblins in Azure city have already set up trading relations with it. The crates visible in this comic are marked as being imported from there.

This may or may not become relevant. It's possible that Redcloak's posted a reward for the Order Of the Stick
Very unlikely. Haley is the only one he might have any awareness of all, and the awareness of Haley doesn’t seem to rise to the level of putting out a reward, particularly advertising it in a city he has no way to know she is in, nor to care.



For those who are assuming Celia is helpless, remember, she does have levels in sorcerer.
Celia casts spells as a 6th level sorcerer. She likely lacks any true levels [except possibly expert-lawyer]

[Remirach]

Her argument has a good deal of force to it. “I’m the expert here, and I say it’s a bad idea.” Now the expert is wrong at times, and sometimes is no expert at all, but it is definitely dangerous not taking the expert’s opinion.
She says it's bad because there are people there who will rob you. OOOOOoooh. The way she words it, it frankly sounds a lot more pleasant than what Azure City's been reduced to, and Celia had to practically shove her out the door to get her to leave THAT wight-infested hellhole.


It seems most likely she was just willing to set off the MOJ. She gives no sign of being aware of Belkar, who seems to be trying to hide. Apparently, Belkar is delirious enough to think Celia is doing something that can help him and just snuck onto the cart.
It seems rather unkind of Celia to endanger Belkar this way, but she has a boyfriend to revive, and that may have made her forget about Belkar.
I'd vote for "just forgot." I don't think she'd try to set off Belkar's MoJ deliberately.


Very unlikely. Haley is the only one he might have any awareness of all, and the awareness of Haley doesn’t seem to rise to the level of putting out a reward, particularly advertising it in a city he has no way to know she is in, nor to care.
Wha? He saw Roy destroy Xykon right in front of them, and the OOTS bring down the dungeon, killing all of his goblin comrades. He's not likely to be looking for them, true, but he definitely knows who they are -- he even recognizes Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) on sight.

[FujinAkari]

Celia casts spells as a 6th level sorcerer. She likely lacks any true levels [except possibly expert-lawyer]

True, but keep in mind that Haley was only about 6th level when the comic began, which would have put her at 3rd - 5th level when in Graysky. This means that Celia the 6th Levelish Sorcerer isn't especially vulnerable.

[Eccerion]

I have to get my rule lawyer cap on for a minute as I recently came to a revelation.

Why are Haley & CO dragging Roys corpse along with them?

For the first month I can understand it as a raise dead spell is a lot easier (so speak) to acquire then a resurrection spell.

But after the first month no raise dead spell in the land will work, thus a resurrection spell is needed.
HOWEVER; the resurrection spell only needs a small part of the person in question, the True resurrection doesn't even need that.

So why in the holy name of Gygax are they lugging the cart around when all they have to do is take his stuff, clip off a couple of strands of hair (no one ever stated it has to be hair from the HEAD:smallbiggrin:) or a finger or 3
and then be on their merry way?

Cremate the body or whatever the northern believers do, would save them a lot of trouble and carrying tiny bits of Roy would be a lot easier.


Me, I blame a lack of ranks in spellcraft on their part:smallannoyed:

[Ninjamuffin]

I have to get my rule lawyer cap on for a minute as I recently came to a revelation.

Why are Haley & CO dragging Roys corpse along with them?

For the first month I can understand it as a raise dead spell is a lot easier (so speak) to acquire then a resurrection spell.

But after the first month no raise dead spell in the land will work, thus a resurrection spell is needed.
HOWEVER; the resurrection spell only needs a small part of the person in question, the True resurrection doesn't even need that.

So why in the holy name of Gygax are they lugging the cart around when all they have to do is take his stuff, clip off a couple of strands of hair (no one ever stated it has to be hair from the HEAD:smallbiggrin:) or a finger or 3
and then be on their merry way?

Cremate the body or whatever the northern believers do, would save them a lot of trouble and carrying tiny bits of Roy would be a lot easier.


Me, I blame a lack of ranks in spellcraft on their part:smallannoyed:

Mark of Justice, anyone?

[Alces]

Mark of Justice, anyone?

Roy = Roy, even if transported in a small bag as ashes plus a couple of toenail clippings for the Resurrect. Done.

[Ikialev]

Belkar should brush his teeth.

[Lunaya]

Belkar should brush his teeth.
At this point, I doubt it would do any good. If Belkar keeps vomiting, his teeth are going to deteriorate no matter what. Have you ever seen the teeth of a person who suffers from Bulimia?

I wonder. Is Belkar "incapable of hurting anyone" yet? The way I see it, there are times when a delirious person can be more dangerous than a lucid one. Does Belkar still have his daggers?

[TheWarBlade]

Wasnt Greysky city were Haley *censored* and *censored*???

[Eric]

How so? Because that Oracle said : "And as for the elf?".... how do you know that he didn't mean "And as for the elf, well, you won't cause his death, but doesn't matter, since you caused the death of Roy, Miko, and her horse so your prophecy is fulfilled?"... or something like that...

Or:

"Since you didn't stop Haley from shooting those birds, V spent even longer destroying his health trying to contact you and died from exhaustion". He was getting REALLY weird with his "explanations" on why there wasn't a refund. And, since that had already happened, Belkar doesn't have to continue to live to see V killed.

[kierthos]

I believe this deserves an official "DUN DUN DUN!"

[Pandabear]

Since we're discussing the MoJ anyway, I was wondering.. Suppose people find out that it is in fact activated, then noone can say for certain that it was because of Belkar killing anyone.. I doubt the activation word would have been used, but Haley and Celia can't prove that Belkar didn't by accident move out of range of Roy when they were within the valley.. It is unknown how large the valley is, so it could've happened.. a reluctant cleric seeing the curse active might not know it was because of a MoJ, and if he does, he might not know the terms on what activates it, or on which terms it activated..

[LM TR]

Haley has Endurance?

[Ninja]

Or:

"Since you didn't stop Haley from shooting those birds, V spent even longer destroying his health trying to contact you and died from exhaustion". He was getting REALLY weird with his "explanations" on why there wasn't a refund. And, since that had already happened, Belkar doesn't have to continue to live to see V killed.

yes. possible. but we can't know. there are bilions of possibilties. so it doesn't automaticly means V will die, and that it will somehow be conected to B.

[Caractacus]

I have to say that I am really looking forward to seeing if this ties up with Haley's back story, and possibly the Linear Guild, too. I find it hard to believe that it won't tie up with the first of these. The comic has hinted at it a few times, enough to allow even those who haven't read the print-only comics to get a handle on Haley's worries about the town, and Rich did say that the on-line comics can be understood without the books. We're getting the introduction now, soon we meet up with the past! :smallcool:

I second (and third) the 'Dun-dun-dun's from other posters above... :smallwink:

[Shatteredtower]

OK, those arguing that V is female get a minor pull as we see Haley repeating her story from #3 and verifying that it is a girly set of reasoning, which means she was treating V as female at the time."Item looks ridiculous," is a drawback curse in the DMG. That only means something if players let it mean something. It suggests nothing about V's gender -- nor even Haley's for that matter. How many guys do you know that wear lime green boots?

A woman's no more likely than a man to pass up a pair of super-powered shoes for looking tacky.


Somebody, or somebodies, is going to need rescue. The Linear Guild may also be involved some way.Nah. Neither Haley nor Celia would agree to rescue the Linear Guild. Belkar might, but only because they keep bringing him those head ornaments.

:smalltongue:


Her argument has a good deal of force to it. “I’m the expert here, and I say it’s a bad idea.”What force? She hasn't presented a single statement to show why it's a more dangerous place than present-day Azure City.


A comedy does not need any sane characters.They're called straight men. Roy, a good example, is at his funniest when he's the rational one.


Indeed, it does better without them."...Riiiiiight..."

Bill Cosby's Noah routine only worked because of the sane reactions to the ridiculous scenario. It's far from the only example, either. There's a lot of comedic value to be had in playing the only sane man in the room.


Celia casts spells as a 6th level sorcerer. She likely lacks any true levels [except possibly expert-lawyer]Some people would argue that that's the case for every sorcerer. :smalltongue:

[Ninja]

Nah. Neither Haley nor Celia would agree to rescue the Linear Guild. Belkar might, but only because they keep bringing him those head ornaments.

i don;t think he meant that LG will need rescuing. i think he meant someone will need (:hlaey" or C or:belkar:), and that LG might show up too to fight them or eat ice crems or so.... :smallbiggrin:

[Eric]

yes. possible. but we can't know. there are bilions of possibilties. so it doesn't automaticly means V will die, and that it will somehow be conected to B.

Well, I wouldn't really call that a "connection". The Oracle was getting really desperate to make up a connection with the other options for what Belkar killed, so there's no need to feel Belkar has to be there to kill V because the Oracle's interrupted statement on the subject may have been complete baloney.

So "billions" could be a severe understatement...

[warmachine]

Yay comic!
Belkar looks really bad. And it looks like he's delirious in the last panel.
Oh noes, Greysky city.
Why doesn't Haley just tell Celia that there are people down there that'll want to kill her?

First, telling why she can't go to Greysky City will require further explanation and backstory exposition, revealing Haley is an ex-thief. This will go down very badly with the prissy Celia, who is known to get angry over littering and murder. It seems Haley is trying to be friends with Celia and revealing ugly truths will damage that.

Second, Haley is one of those people who won't admit she has emotional vulnerabilities. Rather she portrays herself as a smart action girl who can go anywhere and overcome any problem. She agonised about telling Elan she loves him. She still hasn't told anyone that she needs huge amounts of money to free her father. Stating that Greysky City is a problem for her is another secret no one needs to know about.


Alas, it looks like Celia is about to find all this out anyway.

[HOLEkevin]

I guess they're STILL not going to get along.

[DigoDragon]

It's love. that's what makes her not-think... :smallbiggrin:

This is true. DCs to prevent yourself from doing silly things out of love start in the mid 80s. :smalltongue: Now if Haley comes running to save Celia, I'd like to see Celia end up saving saving Haley (I'm hoping Celia would develop into more then just a plot point). Or maybe Belkar will get well enough to save them both? Eh, it's all possible I suppose.

Spoiler: I think the lime green Boots of Speed were made by my boss. She's the only one I know who looks darn good in lime green.

[disorder]

For some reason I always thought Greysky City was some kind of allusion to Seattle...
Naw. Seattle's just not evil enou...

Oh. Starbucks and Microsoft.

objection withdrawn.

[hamishspence]

Marked for death: probably, according to a halfling who has apparently been "skimming off the top" for months.

I'm wondering if the "Corrupt city" that Elan and his boss were investigating, is Greysky, or Cliffport.

[Ascension]

May I just say that I'm enjoying seeing Belkar suffer?

...that is all.

[Red XIV]

First, telling why she can't go to Greysky City will require further explanation and backstory exposition, revealing Haley is an ex-thief. This will go down very badly with the prissy Celia, who is known to get angry over littering and murder. It seems Haley is trying to be friends with Celia and revealing ugly truths will damage that.
I'm pretty sure Celia already knows about Haley being a thief. It's not something she hides, really. And she'd probably be more inclined to like her if she knew that Haley were an ex-thief.

[Warren Dew]

Her argument has a good deal of force to it. “I’m the expert here, and I say it’s a bad idea.” Now the expert is wrong at times, and sometimes is no expert at all, but it is definitely dangerous not taking the expert’s opinion.

To you and me that makes sense, because we see Haley as the more experienced adventurer, and this seems to be a situation where adventurer style expertise is called for.

Celia, however, has little or no evidence that there's any value to adventurer style skills at all. Since she got this half of the party out of Azure City, they've done relatively little fighting, and even of that fighting, the majority has been unnecessary or even detrimental. There's no reason for Celia to see Haley as an expert, and I doubt she does.

[Doug Lampert]

True, but keep in mind that Haley was only about 6th level when the comic began, which would have put her at 3rd - 5th level when in Graysky. This means that Celia the 6th Levelish Sorcerer isn't especially vulnerable.
The FAQ entry on character level says they're 7th-9th level, and was written near the start of the run. But note: IIRC Haley says in On the Origen of PCs that she's gained four levels already since leaving the guild. Hence if she STARTS the comic at level 7 she did in fact leave the guild when only level 3.

And at level 3 or so she was allegedly the guild's best earner.... So she was presumably one of the higher level characters in the guild at the time. (Crystal has to have been higher than that to have death attack, assuming she actually had it.) But even so Haley shouldn't really be seriously worried about people who are presumably level 3 or so when she's level 14 or so.

OTOH the laws of comedy and plot dictate that the guild WILL somehow still be a threat if they encounter it at all.

[Ninja]

well it is possible that the guild members gained levels too you know.... it has been a long time... the are surely around Haley's level

[Eric]

well it is possible that the guild members gained levels too you know.... it has been a long time... the are surely around Haley's level

OotPC spoiler:

Really completely from memory, but when Haley and V are talking, Haley is going on about how she made more XP in the weeks outside the guild than she did in five years in it.

It may have been just "money" but in D&D they usually equate pretty closely.

[robinmotion]

Very nice. Could do with an edit: spped for Speed, snipped for sniped, but other than that, goodnews.

Looks like a minor layering error in the first few frames with Celia's arm ... it's outside of her sleeve, which at first glance, made me think she was suddenly really well endowed ;).

But hey, maybe it's a sheer nighty sleeve!

[titan_monarch]

I see three possibilities for Belkar's statement in the last panel:

1. He's being serious. He really does think about Greysky City in those terms. This would imply that he snuck into the cart under his own power.

2. He's making a sarcastic joke at Celia's expense. He could have crawled into the cart himself or been assisted by Celia.

3. He's fruitlooped out of his gourd. This would imply that Celia put him in the cart.

I vote #2, although the other choices both have points to recommend them.

Actually, he's at least sane enough to pick up on what Haley said earlier. She was being sarcastic, of course, but I think it's a mixture of #1 and #3: while he's "fruitlooped out of his gourd", he also really does think of Greysky City as "Happy Fun Sunshine Land". After Haley called it "a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets", it does seem like Belkar's kind of place.

[David Argall]

He saw Roy destroy Xykon right in front of them, and the OOTS bring down the dungeon, killing all of his goblin comrades. He's not likely to be looking for them, true, but he definitely knows who they are -- he even recognizes Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) on sight.
Shortly afterwards, he saw Xykon kill Roy. As to the rest of the party, he has little knowledge of where they are or what they are doing. And he has a city to run despite his boss. That doesn't give him time or interest in chasing down irrelevancies.

Haley is the only who may have been annoying enough to notice and if that annoyance has been mostly to the mystic thurge, Redcloak may deem that a bonus.

And who is Redcloak going to be offering a reward to? He expects hobgoblins and slaves to obey, not be motivated by rewards.



keep in mind that Haley was only about 6th level when the comic began, which would have put her at 3rd - 5th level when in Graysky. This means that Celia the 6th Levelish Sorcerer isn't especially vulnerable.
Origin Haley says she gained 4 levels in 6 months of adventuring, which is more XP than she had gained in 6 years in the guild. That sets her maximum level at the start of the strip at 14th level, which we already know is higher that she was.
However Haley in the guild was deemed a reasonably talented thief, certainly well above 2nd level. So she might have been 5-6th when she quit the Guild and 9-10th when the adventure started.
However, the more important point is that hostile NPCs gain levels as fast as the PCs do. So the enemy in Greysky will be well above 10th level to match Haley, and way above Celia unless she is generously given some free levels.

[rosebud]

Belkar has gone Completely nuts, and so has Celia.Belkar has never had a full grip, but please explain why Celia is nuts? She has been given insufficient reason to avoid the city. Haley has secrets, she did not share them, and Celia does not consider Haley her leader. No, it's not safe, but she has some skills. Of course, Haley is vulnerable now, too.

[Doug Lampert]

well it is possible that the guild members gained levels too you know.... it has been a long time... the are surely around Haley's levelNot really, it HASN'T been a long time, it's probably been about a year. Haley had been in six years, and had gotten almost no XP and seems to have been one of their best thieves. In the year or so she's been out she's gained about 10 levels from STARTING at being one of their best.

That's the point of Haley's conversation with V, that adventurers gain levels and power and treasure with ridiculous speed compared to other activities like study and actual practice of the skills you're advancing.

The only reason to expect the guild to be ANY threat at all is that otherwise it won't be level appropriate, and as Haley has also pointed out adventurers find level appropriate adventures and payoffs. So if they find the guild it will have been massively up powered, but this is PURE metagame logic, there's simply no good reason in the gameworld that Haley switching activities precisely because the guild doesn't offer rapid advancement or much loot should suddenly make the guild's people advance fast enough to keep up with her.

[Ninja]

@Doug Lampert - afcourse there is a reason to them gaining levels. the story!!! the sub-plot. where's the fun if :haley: jumps in and they are all level 3? she'd kick their asses... there must be some excitement in the story... :smallbiggrin:

[red-death21]

Poor belkar hes getting all crippled in the head.
I wonder wether roy is gonna come back.
most likely not but celias gonna get raped :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Why are Haley & CO dragging Roys corpse along with them?

the resurrection spell only needs a small part of the person in question, the True resurrection doesn't even need that.

So why in the holy name of Gygax are they lugging the cart around when all they have to do is take his stuff, clip off a couple of strands of hair (no one ever stated it has to be hair from the HEAD:smallbiggrin:) or a finger or 3
and then be on their merry way?

Nobody is sure about how much of Roy is needed to keep the Mark of Justice from activating, so Belkar was unwilling to get more than a mile from the largest chunk of Roy. They were also unwilling to put Roy in a bag of holding for similar reasons. There was simply an obvious, if largely unknown, danger from trying anything of the sort.
And they may have found the cart useful for carrying supplies, etc, so carrying a few extra pounds of Roy is a trivial burden.



Wasnt Greysky city were Haley *censored* and *censored*???
You are supposed to spoiler such questions/answers, but Origen The standard assumption is that Haley left the thieves guild in Greysky and there is a contract out on her.



It suggests nothing about V's gender -- nor even Haley's for that matter. How many guys do you know that wear lime green boots?
How many guys do I know that look like they simply grab the nearest shirt and pants and put them on? Lots.


A woman's no more likely than a man to pass up a pair of super-powered shoes for looking tacky.
The fashion industry is heavily female for a reason. And our cliches work the same way. The character that worries about the looks of clothing is routinely female.



Neither Haley nor Celia would agree to rescue the Linear Guild.
But the Linear Guild might rescue them, say as a way to reach Elan. Or... The basic point is that LG has appeared in each book, and is durn certain to appear in the one after this one. So its appearance in the current book is a very likely trope here. It doesn't require any shoehorning to speak of.


What force? She hasn't presented a single statement to show why it's a more dangerous place than present-day Azure City.
As the expert, she doesn't need to. Her word is presumed to be backed up by loads of facts that are a waste of time bringing out. [That the expert's word sometimes isn't is why we often demand such information, but "I know what I am talking about" can be a decisive argument.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
A comedy does not need any sane characters.


They're called straight men. Roy, a good example, is at his funniest when he's the rational one.
And the straight man gets the lesser position and reward. As said, he can be dispensed with entirely and his duties assigned in turn to each of the comics in the group. Roy is only slightly an exception because he sets up jokes for each of the others.



Bill Cosby's Noah routine only worked because of the sane reactions to the ridiculous scenario.
Noah seemed the least sane character in that scenario. Granted, that is not a high standard since I recall about 3 characters total, but the character works by the clowning, not by any sanity.



I'm wondering if the "Corrupt city" that Elan and his boss were investigating, is Greysky, or Cliffport.
Remember to spoiler. Origin [spoiler] It makes sense to have them in the same general area as Haley. Two of the thieves guild personnel are here too. And it seems to fit Greysky reasonably. [spoiler]



Celia, however, has little or no evidence that there's any value to adventurer style skills at all. Since she got this half of the party out of Azure City, they've done relatively little fighting,
We have seen them do little fighting. Apparently there has been a week off camera between 571 and 573. And there are earlier undocumented periods.



There's no reason for Celia to see Haley as an expert, and I doubt she does.
There is plenty of reason. Haley is an adventurer, a PC. By definition, that means charging into dangerous situations where any sane individual would run away. So Haley is saying the situation is too dangerous for her? What does that say to any individual with a sensible attitude about avoiding danger?

But yes, there is a very good chance Celia refuses to acknowledge Haley's expert status here.

[Doug Lampert]

@Doug Lampert - afcourse there is a reason to them gaining levels. the story!!! the sub-plot. where's the fun if :haley: jumps in and they are all level 3? she'd kick their asses... there must be some excitement in the story... :smallbiggrin:

I quote myself from the post you reply to:

The only reason to expect the guild to be ANY threat at all is that otherwise it won't be level appropriate, and as Haley has also pointed out adventurers find level appropriate adventures and payoffs. So if they find the guild it will have been massively up powered,

So yes, I agree completely with my own logic on why they'll have gained levels.:smallsmile:

[Kato]

Hm....but consider... the guild will probably have dozens of members... and Haley being a rough can't handle so many easily, even if they are fairly strong... opponents of her level would defeat her instantly, wouldn't they?

[Doug Lampert]

Hm....but consider... the guild will probably have dozens of members... and Haley being a rough can't handle so many easily, even if they are fairly strong... opponents of her level would defeat her instantly, wouldn't they?

Fortunately level appropriate encounters have the CR of the foes defined based on the actual number of foes and even the circumstances of the encounter. EL not CR here.

[Red XIV]

Hm....but consider... the guild will probably have dozens of members... and Haley being a rough can't handle so many easily, even if they are fairly strong...
Depends on how big the level difference is. Haley soloed 24 hobogoblins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html) pretty easily, and only got two minor wounds in the process.

[Costantinov]

Well, i love what's happening to Belkar.

That damn hafling asked for it.

[Eric]

"Spped" is an error that I will fix now; "snipped" is correct. To "snip" at one another is to argue, particularly in a passive-aggressive way; it leads to you being snippy. "Sniping" is slightly different.

Uh, not in any of three online and two offline dictionaries and one thesaurus, Rich.

"Why were we so snippy" would have worked.

Snip->Snipped. If you could transform snippy to a past tense (it already is) you wouldn't get "snipped".

In one place, the definition of snip is actually snipe, which is someone who makes slighting or derogatory remarks. More normally nowadays more in line with "rascal" than "guttersnipe".

[Eric]

Well, i love what's happening to Belkar.

That damn hafling asked for it.

No. *Deserved* it, probably.

He never asked.:smallamused:

[B.I.T.T.]

Hmmmm...a pacifist fairy unknowningly giving a ride to a delerious and incapacitated Belkar, whom it has been predicted will draw his last breath ever before the end of the year. Why do I have the feeling that things will go awry? Great comic, can't wait to see what happens.

[factotum]

The only reason to expect the guild to be ANY threat at all is that otherwise it won't be level appropriate, and as Haley has also pointed out adventurers find level appropriate adventures and payoffs. So if they find the guild it will have been massively up powered, but this is PURE metagame logic, there's simply no good reason in the gameworld that Haley switching activities precisely because the guild doesn't offer rapid advancement or much loot should suddenly make the guild's people advance fast enough to keep up with her.

However, we know that Crystal at least was probably higher level than Haley*, and being a dedicated killer rather than a thief, would probably more than match her in a fight if they were of the same level.

*otherwise, why would the guild boss send her to "dispatch" Haley after she left?

[Blaznak]

Belkar - Even when he's magically violently ill, he's still thinking! Woot!

[Shatteredtower]

How many guys do I know that look like they simply grab the nearest shirt and pants and put them on? Lots.First, shirts and pants aren't boots. The only reason you might have for knowing a single man to possess a pair of lime green boots would be so that you could win bets with people who claimed you didn't know a single guy that owned them.

Second, a good look around would yield the honest answer that lots of women look like they've simply grabbed the nearest shirt and pants and put them on. Pay enough attention, and you'll see that more than a few of the males are also aware of how they dress.


The fashion industry is heavily female for a reason. And our cliches work the same way. The character that worries about the looks of clothing is routinely female.And halflings are supposed to be jolly. It's a baseless argument.


But the Linear Guild might rescue them, say as a way to reach Elan....

"That was a joke, son."


As the expert, she doesn't need to.Your doctor, lawyer, and accountants are all experts, and if they won't answer questions before undertaking any activity that affects you, it's well past time you took your business elsewhere.

Haley is apparently not acting in the best interests of Roy, Celia's boyfriend -- and former legal counsel. Roy is in no state to object on his own behalf, so it falls to her for two good reasons. Haley has already delayed his return well beyond the "Raise Before" date by hanging around in Azure City for months. It took Celia's intervention to change that. Now either Haley explains the need for this next set of delays in satisfactory detail or Celia decides to take care of the situation herself, as she did in getting Roy on the road in the first place.


Her word is presumed to be backed up by loads of facts that are a waste of time bringing out.They don't appear to be going anywhere at the time Celia asked, so that's not an issue.


the straight man gets the lesser position and reward.You really don't know a thing about comedy, if you're making a claim like that. Bud Abbott earned more than Lou Costello up until the latter renegotiated their contracts and influence for their television series, with a notable decline in the quality of their work (from the perspective of people who enjoyed it). George Burns earned more than Gracie Allen or Carol Channing at the time he was paired with either of them. Jerry Lewis wasn't the same without Dean Martin, though both suffered personally from the split. Sure, Redd Foxx earned more than Demond Wilson back when they worked on Sanford and Son, but the show actually ran for a full season without the former, and then got another season on top of that. Chico and the Man managed to carry on for a full season and a half after the death of Freddie Prinze, and while Jack Albertson may never have scored a starring role in the three years between the show's end and his death, three movie roles and a guest spot are a pretty good record.


As said, he can be dispensed with entirely and his duties assigned in turn to each of the comics in the group.The result is comedians fighting each other for the "best" lines -- or even to have lines they weren't given cut from the show -- to comedy's detriment.


Roy is only slightly an exception because he sets up jokes for each of the others.... Roy isn't "slightly an exception." He's a straight man. It's what he does best.


Noah seemed the least sane character in that scenario.Compared to the guy about to flood the world? The one who's recruited a single contractor to build a floating zoo that's supposed to carry multiple specimens of every animal living on Earth?

As Noah says, "Riiiight..."


Granted, that is not a high standard since I recall about 3 characters total, but the character works by the clowning, not by any sanity.

"Uh huh. Want to get it out of my driveway?"

That's not clowning. That's a perfectly natural reaction from someone faced with the absurd -- such as some guy building a cruise ship in the middle of dry land.

[silvadel]

It is probably very level appropriate for Celia -- it doesnt need to be level appropriate for Haley. Assassins can be hired with money -- they dont need to be hired by people at your level.

[NikkTheTrick]

I am very troubled about what is happening to Belkar:smallfrown:

At this point, he will go mad soon and will be unable to suffer properly. And dying might get him off the hook :smallfurious:

He should be kept sane so that he can feel and comprehend every bit of pain, sickness and suffering :smallamused:

[Kish]

However, we know that Crystal at least was probably higher level than Haley*, and being a dedicated killer rather than a thief, would probably more than match her in a fight if they were of the same level.

*otherwise, why would the guild boss send her to "dispatch" Haley after she left?

Because Crystal is an assassin and better at killing than Haley. From what Haley and her friend said, Crystal's rogue level is apparently extremely low, and she could have a lower character level than Haley and still be better than her at killing because that's what her class is for.

[Warren Dew]

We have seen them do little fighting. Apparently there has been a week off camera between 571 and 573. And there are earlier undocumented periods.

The argument being that there might have been fighting during that time? True - but there also might have been cases of Celia talking them out of situations without fighting.

[galdon]

I for one think something very very bad is going to happen to celia and the cart, and they will probably lose his sword.

Rule #1 of travel: When a rogue tells you that a city is not safe, it is decidedly not safe.

[Fimbulwinter]

Not to get snippy about all this, but I think the correct word is 'snippy'. Also has anyone considered
Origin of PC Spoiler (in white)
Greysky City is almost certainly the city the Order started out from. Haley definitely lived in Greysky City as a member of their thieves guild. Elan was in Greysky City three weeks before the order meets (Chuck and Crystal rob him and his boss). Haley and V have known each other for years and I don't see V as travelling much before becoming an adventurer. Also this is the first city that Roy and Durkon come to after meeting with the oracle. Clues seem to point to Greysky City as being the starting point for OOTS. And if this is true then Belkar is wanted for the murder of 15 of its citizens. This can't turn out well.

[David Argall]

origin This is a common theory and quite possibly correct, tho it is not as certain as you suggest.
However, it seems that the party assembled in a village near Greysky rather than in the city itself. Haley obviously would not want to be in the city, but might be in a nearby town.

[snoopy13a]

Actually, he's at least sane enough to pick up on what Haley said earlier. She was being sarcastic, of course, but I think it's a mixture of #1 and #3: while he's "fruitlooped out of his gourd", he also really does think of Greysky City as "Happy Fun Sunshine Land". After Haley called it "a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets", it does seem like Belkar's kind of place.

I think Belkar was in and out of consciousness so he didn't pick up on Haley's sarcasm or the context of the discussion. He probably thinks that it is actually "Happy Fun Sunshine Land" and wants to go there.

[Remirach]

Shortly afterwards, he saw Xykon kill Roy. As to the rest of the party, he has little knowledge of where they are or what they are doing. And he has a city to run despite his boss. That doesn't give him time or interest in chasing down irrelevancies.

Haley is the only who may have been annoying enough to notice and if that annoyance has been mostly to the mystic thurge, Redcloak may deem that a bonus.

And who is Redcloak going to be offering a reward to? He expects hobgoblins and slaves to obey, not be motivated by rewards.
I wasn't arguing he'd be looking for them, I'm arguing the odds are good he'd recognize them on sight. And he might have some interest in them -- he thought their presence on the battlefield was "interesting" as opposed to just "inconvenient."

Just speculation, of course, at this point.

[FujinAkari]

Origin Haley says she gained 4 levels in 6 months of adventuring, which is more XP than she had gained in 6 years in the guild. That sets her maximum level at the start of the strip at 14th level, which we already know is higher that she was.
However Haley in the guild was deemed a reasonably talented thief, certainly well above 2nd level. So she might have been 5-6th when she quit the Guild and 9-10th when the adventure started.

Incorrect. The Giant explicitly states that the adventurers are between 5th and 7th level in the F.A.Q, which is where they have to be when the adventure stated.

[brilliantlight]

Maybe Belkar's not delirious. Maybe he overheard Haley talking about Greysky City, and thinks that a "dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets" is Happy Fun Sunshine Land..

That's how I took it. To Belkar that is paradise.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Incorrect. The Giant explicitly states that the adventurers are between 5th and 7th level in the F.A.Q, which is where they have to be when the adventure stated.

The Giant has also stated that he plans on making references to both 3rd and 4th edition rules just to screw around with pedants. I don't think their theoretical levels will have that much bearing on the story.

[Lunaya]

Looking at Belkar's expression in that last panel, there's no way I believe that he's lucid. He's wild-eyed and sweating with a big grin on his face. Even if Belkar's being sarcastic, the expression I would expect would be more of a :smallamused: than a :smallbiggrin:, at least coming from him.

Seriously Belkar, take some Aspirin and go lie down. You're freakin' me out. :smalleek:

[fractal]

Also in Celia's defense, sure, Haley may be an expert. However, if a rogue tells you that a city is not safe, what that REALLY means is that the rogue doesn't want you to go into the city. Rogues are notoriously misleading even when they don't outright lie, so if Celia's and Haley's motivations don't entirely align (and they don't, Roy is Celia's boyfriend, not Haley's), then Celia may be right not to trust.

[David Argall]

Incorrect. The Giant explicitly states that the adventurers are between 5th and 7th level in the F.A.Q, which is where they have to be when the adventure stated.

Can you cite where? I do not find any reference to 5th level. I find where he says 7th-9th for party level, which is an out of date posting of course since the party is in the low teens now. [A fair amount of the FAQ is outdated and has been for some time. I am not sure when this item was posted, but I believe it was around in the dungeon days.]
7-9th would translate to 3-5th for Haley in Greysky, with the evidence of Origin arguing for the high end. Assuming a minor bit of human error by Haley or the writer and we can deem her 6th.

Origin Now we are shown one guild member of 7th level, and another of at least 6th. And the guildmaster is going to be distinctly higher. We have no reason to deem this an exhaustive list. So Haley's position as one of the guild top earners also argues for notable levels.

[FujinAkari]

Can you cite where? I do not find any reference to 5th level. I find where he says 7th-9th for party level, which is an out of date posting of course since the party is in the low teens now. [A fair amount of the FAQ is outdated and has been for some time. I am not sure when this item was posted, but I believe it was around in the dungeon days.]
7-9th would translate to 3-5th for Haley in Greysky, with the evidence of Origin arguing for the high end. Assuming a minor bit of human error by Haley or the writer and we can deem her 6th.

Sorry, I misremembered. However, you basically proved my point. People were arguing Celia basically helpless since she "only" cast as a 6th level sorcerer compared to Haley being a 13th level character, while I was demonstrating that Haley achieved a fair bit of prestige back when she could have only been 4th or 5th level.

((As a note, if your argument for 6th level requires Rich to make a mistake, it isn't a good argument :P))


The Giant has also stated that he plans on making references to both 3rd and 4th edition rules just to screw around with pedants. I don't think their theoretical levels will have that much bearing on the story.

While true, this type of thinking makes ALL discussion moot. Anything we can ever discuss can be dismissed with "well, that may not matter!" theories. As such, any direct evidence is valid for the purpose of (admittedly) fruitless theorycrafting :P

[Selene]

And the straight man gets the lesser position and reward. As said, he can be dispensed with entirely and his duties assigned in turn to each of the comics in the group.

Not a Star Trek fan, I take it? Leonard Nimoy stole the show. The fans knew it, the studio knew it, and Shatner most certainly knew it, given how pissed off it seems to have made him.


Roy is only slightly an exception because he sets up jokes for each of the others.

Yeah. That would be the definition of a straight man.


Looking at Belkar's expression in that last panel, there's no way I believe that he's lucid. He's wild-eyed and sweating with a big grin on his face. Even if Belkar's being sarcastic, the expression I would expect would be more of a :smallamused: than a :smallbiggrin:, at least coming from him.

I think the expression is more of a :belkar: than a :smallbiggrin:

[LuisDantas]

Why are so many people assuming Belkar to be delirious?

Calling a thieves' nest "Happy Sunshine Land" is quite in-character for him, really. And he is thinking clearly enough to realize that Celia would rather not bring him along (which she wouldn't, except perhaps to avoid activating the MoJ - but I believe she simply forgot about that).

He is in bad physical shape, to be sure. But I see no evidence of mental imbalance at all.

Of course, he may well be delirious after this considerable time diseased and ill nourished. We just haven't seen anything to suggest that.

[pjackson]

Doesn't anyone else think Celia is likely to be welcomed by the authorities in Greysky City?


She is bringing in Belkar, who escaped when in jail awaiting trial for murder, killing a guard in the process.

[Calabask]

I don't think so, remember it was Azure city that Belkar escaped from, not Grey Sky city. Unless he was jailed there in the OotOOPCs. Which I haven't read yet.

[Moral Wiz]

OtOoPCs spoilerYes, he was. I think so anyway, but definetly he was imprisoned then, somewhere else, for stabbing a guard or some such.

[factotum]

We don't know that Belkar's escape occurred in Greysky City...

[hamishspence]

what we do knowBelkar's escape coincides with V blowing up the Iron Mage stadium. Right after, V is shown talking it over with Haley, who left the Thieves Guild 8 months ago, compared to the "4 days ago" the exploding of stadium and escaping of Belkar took place. conclusion, it is improbable that these events took place in Greysky City. Add to that the short time between Origin and them arriving at Dorukan's Dungon, and we might upgrade that to Highly improbable.

[Doug Lampert]

It is probably very level appropriate for Celia -- it doesnt need to be level appropriate for Haley. Assassins can be hired with money -- they dont need to be hired by people at your level.The thieves guild has no particular reason to go after Celia, it's Haley they want to assassinate. And since Celia is not a PC there's no reason to expect her to find level appropriate encounters.


Because Crystal is an assassin and better at killing than Haley. From what Haley and her friend said, Crystal's rogue level is apparently extremely low, and she could have a lower character level than Haley and still be better than her at killing because that's what her class is for.If she had actual assasin levels she was at least level 6 or so. Haley can't have been higher than level 5. If Crystal had the prestige class then she likely had as many or more rogue levels than Haley and was a worse thief than Haley because her abilities and skills weren't optimized for it and Crystal didn't really think in terms of theft.

Given Haley's disadvantages I could easily see having the highest level characters in the group being as low as level 8 or so and still challenging Haley (if not part of a group she'd need to be level 11+ probably). Level 8 for Crystal and Bodak is perfectly plausible. It's the rest of the guild that needs an unreasonably large upgrade to challenge Haley.


Incorrect. The Giant explicitly states that the adventurers are between 5th and 7th level in the F.A.Q, which is where they have to be when the adventure stated.

It's 7-9 in the FAQ, 7-9 at start makes her 3-5 when she left the guild. However, comic 12 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) or at least the planning for it may well predate the FAQ.

I'd assume she was level 2-5 when she left the guild. There are inconsistencies with assuming really low levels, so I'd go with level 4-5.

[Grimoa]

Wow, I really like how Celia and Haley have some fun. There should be more scenes like this. In comics as well as in roleplaying.

When looking at panel three again, I noticed Mr.Scruffy still beeing faithful to Belkar. (Someone noted Mr.Scruffy jumping out of the cart when Haley wanted to leave Belkar at the Oracles place.) So, I really wondered what makes this cat acompanying a halfling you wouldn't know for his kindness.
Then enlightment hit me: Belkar's a ranger. Mr.Scruffy is his animal companion.
Wow. I'm playing the ranger class for about two years now and I didn't realise earlier?

But, does that mean he became fourth level in Azure city? I always thought OotS-Members are higher level. But maybe he didn't took an animal companion as soon as he was allowed to.

[Doug Lampert]

But, does that mean he became fourth level in Azure city? I always thought OotS-Members are higher level. But maybe he didn't took an animal companion as soon as he was allowed to.

The spellcasters are level 13 in Azure city. Since everyone is advancing at (roughly) the same rate that means everyone was level 13 in Azure city.

You can check Class and Level Geekery for a detailed discussion on Belkar's likely write-up. But the key point is that this is Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) you're talking about. He can't stab people with an animal companion, so what in the world makes you think he even knows he's allowed to have one?

[Dunesen]

I really LOVE the idea that GSC might be one of the nations Redcloak's working on establishing trade relations with. Of course, any plot that could eventually involve Redcloak makes me happy, but even if it's one of his underlings hanging around, it could be a useful opportunity for the group to learn intel.

Don't think Redcloak will be appearing, or even one of his underlings. There's a more pertinent story developing here, I don't think mention of the others will happend just yet.


You know, while you might call Celia stupid for not heeding Haley's extremely vague warnings, I think Haley's insistence on not telling her the REAL reason she won't go into the city is itself somewhat selfish. Roy wouldn't hire someone who wasn't in good standing with the Guild. He was afraid of "assassins" coming after people who hired "scabs." It may have kept Celia away from the town if Haley'd told the truth, but Roy would be certain to hear about it later, and then Haley might be in danger of having her OOTS-membership revoked. I don't exactly blame her, but when she wakes up I wonder if she'll feel guilty, especially if the others get in trouble.

I don't think Haley will get kicked out of the Order even if Roy finds out about lying on the application. He most certainly has a greater sense of cameraderie with her than he does with Belkar or arguably even Elan. He considers her an ally. If he's around when the Thieves Guild comes a-calling for her, he'll stand by her.

[Dunesen]

Her argument has a good deal of force to it. “I’m the expert here, and I say it’s a bad idea.” Now the expert is wrong at times, and sometimes is no expert at all, but it is definitely dangerous not taking the expert’s opinion.

But with no reasoning given, and Celia has already demonstrated she doesn't always fall into the same mode of thinking as an adventurer. She has other modes of thinking besides "there's danger everywhere" or "how do I get XP and gold?"


A comedy does not need any sane characters. Indeed, it does better without them. When a sober voice is needed, they can take turns being half-way sane when the others are being totally nuts. & Celia has been shown to be as crazy as the others several times.

On the subject of comedy, insane characters need some kind of sane person to bounce off of, whether an ally or an antagonist. Otherwise it gets boring to watch nothing but stupid/insane characters by themselves.

[Dunesen]

Looks like a minor layering error in the first few frames with Celia's arm ... it's outside of her sleeve, which at first glance, made me think she was suddenly really well endowed ;).

But hey, maybe it's a sheer nighty sleeve!

I immediately went to check that out. I have no shame.


I wasn't arguing he'd be looking for them, I'm arguing the odds are good he'd recognize them on sight. And he might have some interest in them -- he thought their presence on the battlefield was "interesting" as opposed to just "inconvenient."

Just speculation, of course, at this point.

Speculation: Redcloak, being the more on-the-ball between him and Xykon, would be very interested if there were other people looking to secure a gate. Twice now the OotS has turned up at the same gate Team Evil was at or approaching.

Now it's reasonable to assume that Redcloak knows about Roy's blood oath. Perhaps not the actual detail of being bound to an oath, but he knows Roy wants vengeance against Xykon.

However, as Redcloak's thinking may go, the Order has been to one gate. If they've learned what power it holds, they may be trying to get one under their own control. Perhaps they were allied with the Sapphire Guild out of convenience, only until Team Evil was repelled.

I don't think Redcloak has taken any active measures to capture or kill the Order, but he's definitely aware of them, knows they've turned up twice in inconvenient places, and he may consider them a greater threat than he's let on.

All speculation here.


Doesn't anyone else think Celia is likely to be welcomed by the authorities in Greysky City?


She is bringing in Belkar, who escaped when in jail awaiting trial for murder, killing a guard in the process.


It's already been answered here, but I want to add that no, it most certainly was not Greysky City. The Iron Mage explosion was only a couple days before the team was formed, which indicates they were much closer to Redmountain than Greysky. In addition, V probably hadn't traveled too far after Iron Mage, yet he's sharing drinks with Haley soon afterwards. There's no way she would be close to Greysky. It's also unlikely the Iron Mage arena would be constructed in a thieve's nest like Greysky, or that V would just start traveling right away after their failure. (S)He seemed to be a bit lost about what to do next after losing the contest when they were talking with Haley.

Edit: Also, Belkar seemed to be eager to join a team and get out of the city. It's doubtful he would have escaped from Greysky and then made it to another town still pursued by police. I always took OtooPCs to show that he joined the team while still in the same city he had been imprisoned in.

[Remirach]

Don't think Redcloak will be appearing, or even one of his underlings. There's a more pertinent story developing here, I don't think mention of the others will happend just yet.
He can set up things in the background while focusing the main story. It might even help nudge the plot back toward the quest to annihilate Xykon. GSC is EXACTLY the kind of city RC was looking for to establish good relations with -- a "mercenary nation."

But I don't have my hopes set on it or anything.


I don't think Haley will get kicked out of the Order even if Roy finds out about lying on the application. He most certainly has a greater sense of cameraderie with her than he does with Belkar or arguably even Elan. He considers her an ally. If he's around when the Thieves Guild comes a-calling for her, he'll stand by her.
Oh, I agree. After all they've been through, and all she's done to try and raise him, he would never turn his back on her like that. But Haley's paranoid, and she thinks everyone leaves her. So she's letting her fear of rejection cause her to somewhat selfishly withhold the truth.


Speculation: Redcloak, being the more on-the-ball between him and Xykon, would be very interested if there were other people looking to secure a gate. Twice now the OotS has turned up at the same gate Team Evil was at or approaching.

Now it's reasonable to assume that Redcloak knows about Roy's blood oath. Perhaps not the actual detail of being bound to an oath, but he knows Roy wants vengeance against Xykon.

However, as Redcloak's thinking may go, the Order has been to one gate. If they've learned what power it holds, they may be trying to get one under their own control. Perhaps they were allied with the Sapphire Guild out of convenience, only until Team Evil was repelled.

I don't think Redcloak has taken any active measures to capture or kill the Order, but he's definitely aware of them, knows they've turned up twice in inconvenient places, and he may consider them a greater threat than he's let on.

All speculation here.
Not bad. He'd be wise to cover his bases and try to prepare for whether they knew anything about the Gates or were just after Xykon personally. But I don't know if he considers them a threat, exactly. It's his "interesting" remark that throws me. I'd expect him to be annoyed to find a bunch of fairly high-level PCs mucking up his invasion plan, but he seems more irritated with Xykon for putting "his foot into a big steaming pile of adventurers." To maybe go just a bit far with the speculation, he seems almost a little impressed with Roy, the "human fighter with a broken sword who managed to defeat us." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) I do wonder what goes on in that green head of his...

[Calabask]

I personally think that Redcloak is actually trying to unleash the Snarl and is trying to use Xykon to that end. Nothing how one of the Sapphire guard recognizes his cloak, and I believe even says that he was an order trying to unleash the Snarl, or eludes to it.

[Warren Dew]

It's his "interesting" remark that throws me. I'd expect him to be annoyed to find a bunch of fairly high-level PCs mucking up his invasion plan, but he seems more irritated with Xykon for putting "his foot into a big steaming pile of adventurers." To maybe go just a bit far with the speculation, he seems almost a little impressed with Roy, the "human fighter with a broken sword who managed to defeat us." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) I do wonder what goes on in that green head of his...

Possibly he is trying to think of a way to use OOTS against Xykon eventually?

[Dunesen]

Not bad. He'd be wise to cover his bases and try to prepare for whether they knew anything about the Gates or were just after Xykon personally. But I don't know if he considers them a threat, exactly. It's his "interesting" remark that throws me. I'd expect him to be annoyed to find a bunch of fairly high-level PCs mucking up his invasion plan, but he seems more irritated with Xykon for putting "his foot into a big steaming pile of adventurers." To maybe go just a bit far with the speculation, he seems almost a little impressed with Roy, the "human fighter with a broken sword who managed to defeat us." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) I do wonder what goes on in that green head of his...

If both sides ran into one another in GSC (or more likely, a hobgoblin saw them in the city, recognized them, and reported back to Redcloak) Redcloak might start wondering if there's more to them than just regular adventuring.

Or maybe not. Depends on if he finds out they're trying to raise Roy. Maybe as a villain he wouldn't understand why they would care enough, or perhaps he'll wonder if Roy is someone worth keeping an eye on. He keeps appearing, his "followers" are concerned with bringing him back, maybe he's the brains behind the operation.

But I think I'm getting way off base here. More likely Roy gets rezzed and the Order faces Team Evil at Girard's Gate, and that is when Redcloak realizes that the Order is a direct threat to Xykon personally, as well as TDO's plans for the Snarl. He probably won't learn all that from a sidequest half the team is taking to GSC.

EDIT: Just realized, Tsukiko definitely knows who Haley is and her role in the underground movement. Assuming she ever spoke to Redcloak and passed on this info, he'd figure out right there that the Order is a threat to the goblins as well as Xykon.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

I dont remember what greysky city is, but this is the first time iv seen rich make a second post. I feel honored. Oh, and Celia is being an @$$.

watch out:two strips later haley gets captured by theives guild. It's like the legend of zorro all over again. Haley:catherine zeta Jones

[David Argall]

Speculation: Redcloak, being the more on-the-ball between him and Xykon, would be very interested if there were other people looking to secure a gate. Twice now the OotS has turned up at the same gate Team Evil was at or approaching.

I don't think Redcloak has taken any active measures to capture or kill the Order, but he's definitely aware of them, knows they've turned up twice in inconvenient places, and he may consider them a greater threat than he's let on.
It would seem not. If Redcloak was really worried about the party, his logical reaction is to rush to the next gate as quickly as possible. He is sticking around Azure City because he thinks the next gate can wait. But if there is a party of adventurers out there who are interested in it too, he needs to start working on the big goal. And trying to kill a party here when that party may well be on its way there is an obvious loser.


It's already been answered here, but I want to add that no, it most certainly was not Greysky City. The Iron Mage explosion was only a couple days before the team was formed, which indicates they were much closer to Redmountain than Greysky.
That is Redmountain hills, not Redmountain hill. The range of hills could easily run for hundreds of miles. If we put the Southern end of the hills near Greysky, the party can enter there and work its way north to find the dungeon.
Note here that there is obviously a gap of time between the end of Origin and Comic #1. The party is a day or two away from the hills, which are clearly extensive in area, and in comic 1, they have not only found the castle, but are well into it.



In addition, V probably hadn't traveled too far after Iron Mage, yet he's sharing drinks with Haley soon afterwards. There's no way she would be close to Greysky.
Quite the contrary. Being in Greysky is dangerous for her, but the Thieves Guild presumably has little influence in anything much beyond the city borders. So staying in the general area of the city, just not too near it, offers a number of advantages to her.


It's also unlikely the Iron Mage arena would be constructed in a thieve's nest like Greysky, or that V would just start traveling right away after their failure.
Which again is consistent with it being in the suburbs of Greysky.



Edit: Also, Belkar seemed to be eager to join a team and get out of the city. It's doubtful he would have escaped from Greysky and then made it to another town still pursued by police. I always took OtooPCs to show that he joined the team while still in the same city he had been imprisoned in.
Which is also consistent with a suburb of Greysky.

We also need to consider Elan here. Three weeks ago, Elan was in the same city as the Thieves Guild. Now Elan being Elan, we can't rule out that he touched the cursed artifact of random teleport and is nowhere near that city now, but Elan is also the type who gets lost crossing the street. The closer we put him to the city of the Thieves Guild, the more consistent we make things. So he too fits nicely with a suburb of Greysky.




But with no reasoning given, and Celia has already demonstrated she doesn't always fall into the same mode of thinking as an adventurer. She has other modes of thinking besides "there's danger everywhere" or "how do I get XP and gold?"
I am not sure of your reasoning here. That Celia doesn't think in the same way as Haley is a reason to defer to Haley when she makes a claim of experteze. Celia would be acknowledging her inability to measure the danger.
It would seem more that Celia simply doesn't acknowledge that Haley is an expert on such subjects.



On the subject of comedy, insane characters need some kind of sane person to bounce off of, whether an ally or an antagonist.
True, and false. They can take turns bouncing off each other playing the straight man. A goes crazy, to the shock of temporarily straight B, who will be crazy with C, who... Such a system is rarely stable since chance or situations or skills will shift the system to where someone does a great deal of the straightman, but even in a team of two where the roles are well established, the straightman will sometimes become the crazy.



if your argument requires Rich to make a mistake, it isn't a good argument
It is a dangerous argument. Almost by definition, he knows more of the situation than we do and even the most blatent "error" can be entirely logical. [In fact, the most blatent ones may be the most likely to be logical.] However we are well aware that our writer makes mistakes. He's human. We catch stuff, mostly trivial, every few strips. So the option that our writer made one of many possible errors is always on the table.

[hamishspence]

Origin and Dungeon Crawling Fools spoilers:
Given that Origin was released after Dungeon Crawling Fools, it is possible that "yesterday" refers to that bonus strip in Fools, which begins in the Redmountain hills. They mention goblin raids on the surrounding villages. They are led by captured goblins to a pass, dealt with its guardians (sort of) arrive at the castle, lure the guard beast off, and enter. Immediately after they destroy Xykon, they head for a village. The impression I get, given the reference to "surrounding villages" is that there might not be a city in the immediate vicinity.

Comments about suburbs do not really apply: Haley's home town appeared to be walled. Walled city and "suburbs" do not go together.

Greysky is probably not within a day or so's walk from the dungeon, if you go by the fact that it is close to the Oracle's tower in the Southlands. Nor do we have confirmation that the "corrupt city" elan is in, is Greysky. Could just as easily be Cliffport, which is described as seedy in places, in SoD. Only evidence is the presence of someone who looks like Crystal in the Rob-U-while-U-sleep inn.

Elan was in that city 3 weeks ago, compared to 8 months ago for Haley being in the city where she was previously employed.

[Dunesen]

It would seem not. If Redcloak was really worried about the party, his logical reaction is to rush to the next gate as quickly as possible. He is sticking around Azure City because he thinks the next gate can wait. But if there is a party of adventurers out there who are interested in it too, he needs to start working on the big goal. And trying to kill a party here when that party may well be on its way there is an obvious loser.

The pressing concern of getting to a new gate should another group be seeking one is a good point. HOWEVER, Redcloak acknowledges Roy as the leader of the team (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html), and he in all likelihood knows Roy fell to his death (if he didn't see it actually happen, he at least saw it on the Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)).

If their leader's dead, they're not much of a direct threat. But if they're trying to bring him back...



That is Redmountain hills, not Redmountain hill. The range of hills could easily run for hundreds of miles. If we put the Southern end of the hills near Greysky, the party can enter there and work its way north to find the dungeon.
Note here that there is obviously a gap of time between the end of Origin and Comic #1. The party is a day or two away from the hills, which are clearly extensive in area, and in comic 1, they have not only found the castle, but are well into it.

And what are we basing the proximity of the southern edge of the hills (assuming it runs north to south) to Greysky City on? Haley, Celia, and Belkar haven't seem to have been travelling too long from when they left Azure City.

Yet compare this to Miko leaving Azure City to get to the OotS, who had stopped at the town nearest the Dungeon of Dorukan. 80 strips to catch them. It's possible they had to march from the southern tip to the middle or upper part to find the dungeon, but do we have anything to actually establish this?


Quite the contrary. Being in Greysky is dangerous for her, but the Thieves Guild presumably has little influence in anything much beyond the city borders. So staying in the general area of the city, just not too near it, offers a number of advantages to her.

What advantage, a greater risk of accidently running into an old guild member? Just because they may not have influence in the suburbs of GSC doesn't mean one of them can't be out running an errand and "Oh, hey, there's Starshine!"


We also need to consider Elan here. Three weeks ago, Elan was in the same city as the Thieves Guild. Now Elan being Elan, we can't rule out that he touched the cursed artifact of random teleport and is nowhere near that city now, but Elan is also the type who gets lost crossing the street. The closer we put him to the city of the Thieves Guild, the more consistent we make things. So he too fits nicely with a suburb of Greysky.

Elan can get lost easily, but he's gleaned some knowledge as a herald (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html). Finding his way to another town isn't too much of a stretch, especially when he has three weeks to move around rather than the four days for V.



I am not sure of your reasoning here. That Celia doesn't think in the same way as Haley is a reason to defer to Haley when she makes a claim of experteze. Celia would be acknowledging her inability to measure the danger.
It would seem more that Celia simply doesn't acknowledge that Haley is an expert on such subjects.

Haley's reasoning for not going to GSC was vague, at best. Celia didn't consider it a reasonable explanation, and after other cases where Haley tried to justify her actions unconvincingly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html) it's very much questionable that Celia regards Haley as a leader or authority at all.

[Red XIV]

Just realized, Tsukiko definitely knows who Haley is and her role in the underground movement. Assuming she ever spoke to Redcloak and passed on this info, he'd figure out right there that the Order is a threat to the goblins as well as Xykon.
Given that Redcloak hates humans in general, and Tsukiko hates Redcloak specifically, I kind of doubt they have many conversations.

[Kish]

I personally think that Redcloak is actually trying to unleash the Snarl and is trying to use Xykon to that end. Nothing how one of the Sapphire guard recognizes his cloak, and I believe even says that he was an order trying to unleash the Snarl, or eludes to it.
What you're speaking of is not a matter for speculation anymore. It's explained in SoD, so it's a matter to avoid spoilering, but not for speculation.

[David Argall]

Origin and Dungeon Crawling Fools spoilers:

Given that Origin was released after Dungeon Crawling Fools, it is possible that "yesterday" refers to that bonus strip in Fools, which begins in the Redmountain hills.
Sigh, I'm going to have to break down and buy that one too...


The impression I get, given the reference to "surrounding villages" is that there might not be a city in the immediate vicinity.
Given that the party starts 18+ miles from the hills and that the theory is that this starting point was a substantial distance from Greysky, this would be correct without challenging the theory.


Comments about suburbs do not really apply: Haley's home town appeared to be walled. Walled city and "suburbs" do not go together.
We often picture the wall of a city as having nothing on the outside, but this was not correct. Land inside the city walls was scarce, and thus expensive. So a large number of functions that needed or wanted a lot of land moved outside city walls, but still as close as they could get. If city authorities let them, they built up onto the city wall itself. In emergencies such as wars, those outside fled into the city and many of these structures would be destroyed, but during times of safety, the majority of the city population might have lived outside its walls.
Assuming the city grew, new walls would eventually be built around the larger area, and the old ones torn down. Some of the widest streets in Europe are the former locations of the city walls.

In addition, there were a number of smaller communities around any city. These might have their own small walls for lesser dangers, but they would count on the nearby city and its greater walls as a refuge against greater threats. So there would be a good number of suburbs for Haley to go to.


Greysky is probably not within a day or so's walk from the dungeon, if you go by the fact that it is close to the Oracle's tower in the Southlands.
Greysky is about a week from the Oracle, which is apparently under a week from Azure city. Cliffport is merely labeled as way more than 4 weeks from Azure City. Since we are talking a distance of roughly a thousand miles, 8 weeks is not an impossible figure.


Nor do we have confirmation that the "corrupt city" elan is in, is Greysky. Could just as easily be Cliffport, which is described as seedy in places, in SoD.
But now we have Haley's behavior. She doesn't want to go to Greysky. Instead, she wants to spend weeks walking hundreds of miles to Cliffport. That doesn't make much sense if she was in any danger in Cliffport. It makes a lot of sense if Haley was threatened in Greysky.


Only evidence is the presence of someone who looks like Crystal in the Rob-U-while-U-sleep inn.
We also have the presence of Chuck at the inn too. It is highly likely there are recycled figures in the story, but that we have two of them from the same story appearing together in the 2nd story? In the same book? Clearly the easier answer is that Elan was in the same city where Haley had been.




I personally think that Redcloak is actually trying to unleash the Snarl and is trying to use Xykon to that end.
Possibly you have not read SoD. It seems to explain Redcloak's motivation quite well, and shows he is entirely willing to risk unleashing the Snarl, but is hoping to control it.

[brilliantlight]

For some reason I always thought Greysky City was some kind of allusion to Seattle... not that it's known for a high crime rate, or anything, but you get to see the sun, what, 75 days of the year?

I really LOVE the idea that GSC might be one of the nations Redcloak's working on establishing trade relations with. Of course, any plot that could eventually involve Redcloak makes me happy, but even if it's one of his underlings hanging around, it could be a useful opportunity for the group to learn intel.

You know, while you might call Celia stupid for not heeding Haley's extremely vague warnings, I think Haley's insistence on not telling her the REAL reason she won't go into the city is itself somewhat selfish. Roy wouldn't hire someone who wasn't in good standing with the Guild. He was afraid of "assassins" coming after people who hired "scabs." It may have kept Celia away from the town if Haley'd told the truth, but Roy would be certain to hear about it later, and then Haley might be in danger of having her OOTS-membership revoked. I don't exactly blame her, but when she wakes up I wonder if she'll feel guilty, especially if the others get in trouble.


Seatle gets quite a bit more sun then that. It has a rainy season and a (somewhat) dry season. It varies more in rainfall then temprature.

[Wardog]

I dislike the city's name. It's so superhero-ish sounding... Even just calling it "Graysky City" could help.

No city name can beat Easthaven, tho.

What's wrong with Greysky? And why would Graysky be better?

And what's so special about the name "Easthaven"?

I tcertainly can't compare with (village not city) Westward_Ho! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westward_Ho!)

[FujinAkari]

We often picture the wall of a city as having nothing on the outside, but this was not correct. Land inside the city walls was scarce, and thus expensive. So a large number of functions that needed or wanted a lot of land moved outside city walls, but still as close as they could get. If city authorities let them, they built up onto the city wall itself. In emergencies such as wars, those outside fled into the city and many of these structures would be destroyed, but during times of safety, the majority of the city population might have lived outside its walls.

While this is historically accurate, it does not seem to apply to fantasy settings. We can note that Azure City had no buildings whatsoever beyond its walls and was significantly larger than Greysky city, being an urban capitol rather than what is, effectively, characterized as a slum.

[Grimoa]

He can't stab people with an animal companion, so what in the world makes you think he even knows he's allowed to have one?

Well... I was thinking more of his player. He certainly knows he's allowed an animal companion and apparantly liked Mr.Scruffy. Belkar on the other hand does not need to know what his player knows. (Although OotS characters seem to know the rules sometimes.) To Belkar it's just Mr.Scruffy who happens to follow him around. ;)

[factotum]

Well... I was thinking more of his player. He certainly knows he's allowed an animal companion and apparantly liked Mr.Scruffy.

Well, quite apart from the fact the PCs in OotS don't HAVE "players", you're talking about the same person who didn't even realise he had Evasion--see strip #469. As far as Belkar is concerned, he chose Ranger because it offered free dual-wield and the chance to name Kobold as a favoured enemy, not because of any fluffy animal companion nonsense...

[Remirach]

Seatle gets quite a bit more sun then that. It has a rainy season and a (somewhat) dry season. It varies more in rainfall then temprature.
I actually grew up in the Pacific Northwest -- but near Portland, Oregon, not Seattle, Washington. I was exaggerating for comedic purposes, but Greysky City really did seem like an appropriate name for either town.

I recall summers being quite dry, especially August, the most miserable month of the year, when temperatures can and do spike into the 90s and 100s and almost no one has central air conditioning. The rest of the year -- it rains. May usually is nice and sunny right up until Memorial Day weekend, where you are guaranteed to get a deluge. And god help you if you've made camping plans.

Ahh, memories...

[Eccerion]

Mark of Justice, anyone?

Argh "slaps forehead" of course how could I forget that..sigh.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Wasnt Greysky city were Haley *censored* and *censored*???
...with a *censored* in her *censored* along with a censer full of *censored*??? I didn't think that was possible even in fiction!

[Arlynos]

Cant wait for the next strip to be up, kinda getting antsy lol.

[Eric]

Well, quite apart from the fact the PCs in OotS don't HAVE "players", you're talking about the same person who didn't even realise he had Evasion--see strip #469. As far as Belkar is concerned, he chose Ranger because it offered free dual-wield and the chance to name Kobold as a favoured enemy, not because of any fluffy animal companion nonsense...

Durkon didn't know he had +1 to hit vs Goblins. Or specialisation.

See #034.

[Eric]

While this is historically accurate, it does not seem to apply to fantasy settings. We can note that Azure City had no buildings whatsoever beyond its walls and was significantly larger than Greysky city, being an urban capitol rather than what is, effectively, characterized as a slum.

Mostly, I think, because it's a far more dangerous world.

If you have to rebuild the larger part of the city every three months and the goblins take off with all the loot, you'll either lose people or have to locate them inside the city.

[factotum]

Durkon didn't know he had +1 to hit vs Goblins. Or specialisation.

See #034.

Isn't that agreeing with what I said?

[Szilard]

Forums are back!

[Dunesen]

...with a *censored* in her *censored* along with a censer full of *censored*??? I didn't think that was possible even in fiction!

Well you know, that's legal in Tijuana.

[Electric_Monkey]

How do we know that Greysky's where Haley's originally from? It seems like a reasonable explanation for why she'd be against going there, but I've flipped throuhg my copy of OtOoPCs and can't find any reference to the city by name. Am I missing something?

[David Argall]

Nope, but you are missing the economy of plot which is that characters and locations are reused. Since there is no reason that Haley didn't come from Greysky and it is about the only city mentioned, the presumption is that she came from Greysky.