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View Full Version : Who let the Dogs out of 4e? [4e, Statting a dog]



Conners
2008-07-08, 10:19 AM
As the title suggests, I was greatly upset when I found a lack of dogs in the MM for 4e. One thing I've been wanting to do is have a loyal dog to aid the party... I was wondering how to stat a dog, exactly... wolves are a good basis.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-08, 10:32 AM
There are hounds...

Conners
2008-07-08, 11:01 AM
There are hounds... Tried that... but all they have is a couple of Hell Hound variants and a Shadow Hound... It's as crazy as when I went to the bat section, but only found a humanoid-bat-thing and a bat that was on fire--interestingly, the snake section had a snake that was on fire...

Fhaolan
2008-07-08, 11:05 AM
Starting from wolf makes sense.

The 'wolf' entry in the 4e MM would probably encompass not just Canis lupis lupis, but all the Canis genus. So Canis lupis familiarus (domestic dog), Canis rufus (red wolf), Canis simensis (etheopian wolf), Canis latrans (coyote), Canis adustus/Canis aureus/Canis mesomelas (jackals), as well as the actual Canis dirus (the historical dire wolf, which actually was more like a regular wolf than the D&D version has made it out to be).

The variations within the breeds shouldn't be that big of a deal, except for the exceptionally small breeds. I'd say the exceptionally large breeds would just get a couple more points of STR, but that's about it. The very small breeds like terriers and the like... they'll take a lot more futzing with. Whatever you come up with for that, you'll be able to use for the smaller foxes as well (Vulpes and others).

LoopyZebra
2008-07-08, 11:07 AM
I do believe they took all the normal animals, and either made it dire, EVIL, or lit it on fire.

In other news, PETA is suing WotC for lighting so many animals on fire. WotC claims "this is what we do with all the monsters."

For a dog, try making it using the homebrew rules in the back of the DMG. Maybe make a dog a skirmisher (bites peoples legs, but easily hurt)? If you want to have the creature scale with the party, you'll have to keep recalculating it though. Although unorthodox, you could try making the dog an NPC, with, oh, ranger(?) as a class?

Zeta Kai
2008-07-08, 11:51 AM
I do believe they took all the normal animals, and either made it dire, EVIL, or lit it on fire.

Yeah, see, this is just one of the many reasons that there are so many people who find 4E to be so daft. There's just no attempt at reality-emulation; everything's so "heroicly fantastical" that you can't even have normal animals in the Monster Manual anymore. I apologize for the rant, but this is a perfect example of why some people (myself included) see 4E as World of D&D-craft. Why would the premier tabletop RPG seek to emulate its most bastardized of offspring, the MMO?

LoopyZebra
2008-07-08, 12:01 PM
Yeah, see, this is just one of the many reasons that there are so many people who find 4E to be so daft. There's just no attempt at reality-emulation; everything's so "heroicly fantastical" that you can't even have normal animals in the Monster Manual anymore. I apologize for the rant, but this is a perfect example of why some people (myself included) see 4E as World of D&D-craft.

Well, while I do miss the normal animals, fiery, evil, and dire animals were all in monsters manuals before, and are cool in some cases. (Feymire Crocodile = LAME). However, a system is ultimately a tool, and 4E is particularly easy to use (and fun). It'd probably take you or me an hour or two to stat out all the animals that the 3.5 Monster Manual had. I don't want to play World of DnDcraft either; I want to make a believable (well, believable to me) world. The presence of fire snakes doesn't change that, and neither does taking a few minutes to make a normal snake.

Indon
2008-07-08, 12:05 PM
I apologize for the rant, but this is a perfect example of why some people (myself included) see 4E as World of D&D-craft. Why would the premier tabletop RPG seek to emulate its most bastardized of offspring, the MMO?

I might point out that World of Warcraft has you kill plenty of perfectly normal animals who aren't giant or on fire, particularly at low levels.

Jayabalard
2008-07-08, 12:16 PM
I might point out that World of Warcraft has you kill plenty of perfectly normal animals who aren't giant or on fire, particularly at low levels.or even at the mid to high levels...

Indon
2008-07-08, 12:19 PM
or even at the mid to high levels...

Well, they generally do get bigger by then, and Outland frequently sets them on fire.

Zaeron
2008-07-08, 12:22 PM
Well, they generally do get bigger by then, and Outland frequently sets them on fire.

The day I'll really be convinced that D&D has become WoW is the day my DM gives us a quest that consists of digging through the poop of fairly mundane creatures in an effort to locate something.

LoopyZebra
2008-07-08, 12:25 PM
The day I'll really be convinced that D&D has become WoW is the day my DM gives us a quest that consists of digging through the poop of fairly mundane creatures in an effort to locate something.

Or, when tasked to bring Murloc heads back for a reward, you find that the majority of murlocs, are, in fact, headless.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-08, 12:27 PM
The day I'll really be convinced that D&D has become WoW is the day my DM gives us a quest that consists of digging through the poop of fairly mundane creatures in an effort to locate something.

And you would be doing this in the epic tier no less, while you should be killing demons, you find yourself wading through poop! (only to find out that they have water-breathing properties!?)

Arioch
2008-07-08, 12:28 PM
Or, when tasked to bring Murloc heads back for a reward, you find that the majority of murlocs, are, in fact, headless.

Ah, the cry of the logical WoWer: "Why the hell don't these boars have lungs?!"

LoopyZebra
2008-07-08, 12:29 PM
Ah, the cry of the logical WoWer: "Why the hell don't these boars have lungs?!"

That should be on a t-shirt.

Thinker
2008-07-08, 12:34 PM
They have to have something for future monster manuals.

MartinHarper
2008-07-08, 01:24 PM
I was wondering how to stat a dog, exactly...

Use Giant Rat stats. Remove low light vision and climb 3. Increase speed by 2.


I went to the bat section, but only found a humanoid-bat-thing and a bat that was on fire

What type of bat were you after?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-08, 02:45 PM
Yeah, see, this is just one of the many reasons that there are so many people who find 4E to be so daft. There's just no attempt at reality-emulation; everything's so "heroicly fantastical" that you can't even have normal animals in the Monster Manual anymore. I apologize for the rant, but this is a perfect example of why some people (myself included) see 4E as World of D&D-craft. Why would the premier tabletop RPG seek to emulate its most bastardized of offspring, the MMO?

As others have pointed out, I actually can't think of anything less MMO-like than a game which pointedly avoids making you fight mundane animals for the first 25% of your adventuring career.

Part of the design philosophy of 4E was to remove all of the rules for mundane stuff. Deer Hunting should be a skill check, not a Combat.

Crow
2008-07-08, 03:04 PM
As others have pointed out, I actually can't think of anything less MMO-like than a game which pointedly avoids making you fight mundane animals for the first 25% of your adventuring career.

Part of the design philosophy of 4E was to remove all of the rules for mundane stuff. Deer Hunting should be a skill check, not a Combat.

...and accidentally wandering upon on boar's nest and getting charged by a wild pig should be a Nature check.

Eclipse
2008-07-08, 03:10 PM
Use the 3rd edition stats, and tweak them slightly as needed... specifically, take any skills they have ranks in and give them skill training, and add 10 to their saves to make them defenses instead. Look at hit dice and derive attack bonuses and skill checks from there.

It's not perfect, but it will give you a quick outline without needing to spend a lot of time on it. I think I covered the major points anyway.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-08, 03:18 PM
...and accidentally wandering upon on boar's nest and getting charged by a wild pig should be a Nature check.

I'm not sure if you're joking here, because I'd totally run it like that. I'd far rather run a deer hunt as a Skill Challenge, with "you come across a wild boar and get charged by a wild pig" as a consequence for failure (manifesting as either a loss of Healing Surges or as starting a combat with a delevelled Dire Boar) than trying to run combat against a deer.

FoE
2008-07-08, 03:21 PM
How often did anyone ever use that sort of encounter and not make it a dire boar or a wereboar or some other variant?

RTGoodman
2008-07-08, 03:22 PM
You know, I only played WoW for like a month and my dreams are still haunted by people demanding I hunt down 49348034 Cougars and bring them their claws.

Anyway, try this one out - I basically just followed the guidelines in the back of the DMG and it didn't take that long. You could probably come up with a different attack power, but I couldn't think of anything dogs do that's that special.


http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd40/rtg0922/4EDogStatBlock.png

Crow
2008-07-08, 03:24 PM
How often did anyone ever use that sort of encounter and not make it a dire boar or a wereboar or some other variant?

I used exactly that encounter. A boar can easily kill a level 1 (3.x) character (just like they can easily kill a human in real life).

FoE
2008-07-08, 03:48 PM
I used exactly that encounter. A boar can easily kill a level 1 (3.x) character (just like they can easily kill a human in real life).

:smallsigh: I never said they weren't EVER used. My implication was they were very rarely used. Outside of that Level 1 encounter, most DMs would substitute your average, boring boar for some gigantic or magical variation.

puppyavenger
2008-07-08, 03:50 PM
:smallsigh: I never said they weren't EVER used. My implication was they were very rarely used. Outside of that Level 1 encounter, most DMs would substitute your average, boring boar for some gigantic or magical variation.

well with the average boar, you can have a non-tpk stampede., also it doesn't require any explanation for why it's there.

FoE
2008-07-08, 04:01 PM
well with the average boar, you can have a non-tpk stampede., also it doesn't require any explanation for why it's there.

Boars don't stampede. They gore. And wild boars typically avoid humans, even in small groups. Unless they're cornered and protecting their young 'uns, that is.

A dire boar, on the other hand, is a ferocious, predatory brute that has no fear of people. As for "why it's there," well, why is any animal anywhere?

Crow
2008-07-08, 04:17 PM
Boars don't stampede. They gore. And wild boars typically avoid humans, even in small groups. Unless they're cornered and protecting their young 'uns, that is.

A dire boar, on the other hand, is a ferocious, predatory brute that has no fear of people. As for "why it's there," well, why is any animal anywhere?

Because you accidentally stumbled upon it's nest (did this in real life once), in which case, a wild boar is very ferocious.

FoE
2008-07-08, 04:20 PM
Because you accidentally stumbled upon its nest (did this in real life once), in which case, a wild boar is very ferocious.

So's a dire boar/wereboar/fiendish boar. And it's actually dangerous to higher-level parties.

Crow
2008-07-08, 04:25 PM
So's a dire boar. And it's actually dangerous to higher-level parties.

But will demolish lower level ones...what's your point exactly? Or are you just throwing that out there?

FoE
2008-07-08, 06:55 PM
I guess the whole point of my argument is that I don't mind mundane animals being in the Monster Manual. Here are my points:

1) Most animals in real life avoid humans. Typically an animal only fights against a human to defend itself or its young. So a fight with mundane animals is unlikely, aside from a few rare circumstances. You want to get technical, hippos are one of the most tempermental and dangerous creatures on Earth, but I don't see no DMs throwing hippos at their party.

2) Mundane animals aren't particularly useful EXCEPT at the lowest levels, or in swarms. (And that's a whole other ball of wax.) A creature with a higher Challenge Rating can either challenge parties at lower levels on its own or challenge parties of equal levels in a group.

3) Mundane animals are boooooring. This is fantasy, after all. Why not use fantastical creatures? Take Conan the Barbarian as an example: when he fought a bear, that bear was as tall as the trees itself. When he fought a wild boar, it was as big as a horse and a man-eater. And when he fought a gorilla, it was a sentient gorilla that had taken over its master's house.

And technically speaking, Conan the Barbarian was "hard" fantasy. There was more danger from men than there were from demons.

Conners
2008-07-08, 08:19 PM
You know, I only played WoW for like a month and my dreams are still haunted by people demanding I hunt down 49348034 Cougars and bring them their claws.

Anyway, try this one out - I basically just followed the guidelines in the back of the DMG and it didn't take that long. You could probably come up with a different attack power, but I couldn't think of anything dogs do that's that special.


http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd40/rtg0922/4EDogStatBlock.png Hey, this is pretty good. Thanks heaps :smallbiggrin:!


Thanks everyone. What do you think of this sheet here rtg0922 posted?