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Ellisar
2008-07-09, 03:34 AM
Hi all!

I play a LN silvanesti elf* conjurer 3/Master Specialist 3 in a 3.5 campaign set in the Dragonlance setting, and I have encountered a number of problems that have made my character want to murder the rest of his party in their slep and wander off.

The style of play that we prefer involves absolutely brutal encounters, so any character that runs out of luck or is build badly is very likely to die, and we like it that way because we all like to optimize our characters and test our creations, though not all of us are equally good at optimizing. The problems started as the members of our original party (all dead now) started to die, and newer PC adjusted to the plotline entered play and started forcing the more original PCs down on a route that they do not like, and in some cases seems to be made to clash with existing characters. Lets go over the party and analyze the problem:

My character: Entered play at level 3, and is my 2nd character int his campaign. My character is a former silvanesti noble, who have witnessed his entire family slaughtered in battle against impossible numbers of goblins and the like, but were saved as his wizard mentor decided to teleport him to safety. My character escaped the occupied silvanesti lands on foot, took refuge in the neighbouring human lands, and were for a moment reunited with his wife before she died during a raid by a local goblin tribe.

Morriowyn: CE human fighter 2/swashbuckler 4: Entered play at level 2, and is the players 2nd PC in this campaign. A heartless mercenary who fights whoever he is paid to kill. He havent got much of a background, or he hides it very well. Seems friendly towards my character, and no problems exist as long as he continues to hide his evil tendencies.

Trook: LE half-ogre mystic 5 (weak cleric-like class). Entered play at adjusted level 4, and is the players 3rd character in the campaign. This is the DMs favourite PC. A former mercenary, who proudly boasts about his exploits against my characters people. Carries my characters brothers beaten up mythril shield and bloody tabard, and frequently brags about how he took those things as trophies after killing a 'pointy eared paladin'. Also a Neracan squire, and has been the protagonist of the campaignever since the party were forced to take refuge in Haven (a Neracan (Neracans = Eeeeeeeevil) city), and subsequently forced into armed service for the neracans. My character hates this guy with passion.

Kamir: NE human ranger 6. This character entered play at level 5, and is the players 4th character in this campaign. Also a Neracan squire. He havent got much of a background, and is beaten down to the negative HPs in almost every battle. He has murdered several innocent people in front of my character, and I have pretty much ratted him out to every law enforcement agency I got in contact with ever since. Also tries to murder my character once in a while, but has been horribly unsuccesful so far.

The trouble began with the Neracan story arc, form which the two most original PCs (my own and Morrowyn) want to flee, but the later PCs are basically made a part of through their allegiance with the Neracan Knights. Simply leaving Haven would result in us being forced to roll up new characters and follow the Neracan story arc in the heels of Trook, which we do not want to do, and staying would be out of character for us, not to mention that if any elf found out that I were fighting the Solamnic Knights (the archetypical good guys) under Neracan command, I would become a dark elf immediately.

What would you do in my place to make my character continued involvement in the plot make sense? I am all out of ideas.

* I know I know... I should be CG, but my personal interpretation of the silvanesti elves behaviour makes them too cruel to be truly good, and too puritan/autoritharian/bound by tradition to ba anything but lawful.

Crow
2008-07-09, 03:40 AM
If you're lawful neutral, accepting a contract to help the other PC's wouldn't be too far off-base. Make them pay you for your assistance.

Or you can change. Sometimes characters do things that they wouldn't do on any sane day. "Everything told me to walk away, but for some reason, I just couldn't do that. I had to find out what was really going on..."

Swordguy
2008-07-09, 04:38 AM
Offhand, you could just be friends with one of them. People'll do a lot for a buddy, and everyone has friends. Even really evil people.

Bayar
2008-07-09, 04:48 AM
Stab them in their sleep and say "It was for the greater good".

Revlid
2008-07-09, 04:57 AM
Okay, the Half-Ogre is really just trying to provoke you in the most obvious and ridiculously arrogant way - kill him in his sleep and retrieve his equipment.

As for the other one, the murderer - try to get him to stop killing innocents. If that doesn't work, try more extreme measures. Getting the law called down on you is no way to work, for your character or your 'friend'. Mercenaries should try to keep more of a low profile than that.

Really, your party seems to be morally grey, verging on the black, so you can't complain if the other characters are asses/sociopaths.

However, they similarly can't complain if you just kill the guy you obviously killed your brother and looted his body and is now flaunting his ancestral equipment in front of you. Jesus, heroes would kill BBEGs for that sort of thing - a LN character can sure as hell do that to a LE fellow PC.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-09, 05:02 AM
Stab them in their sleep and say "It was for the greater good".

Agreed, especially the ogre. You are a wizard 6, he is a weaker cleric with LA. You can take him.

As for why you would off him? He killed your bro and brags about it to your face.

Off the ranger as well and then go on the run to escape service with the Neracan's.

kamikasei
2008-07-09, 05:24 AM
You say you want an IC reason to stay with the party. But it seems to me you're motivated by the OC desire not to have your characters become NPCs if they go in the wrong direction. This:


Off the ranger as well and then go on the run to escape service with the Neracan's.

...is a pretty in-character thing to do here, it seems to me. It looks like what's holding you back from it is the expectation that if your character goes on the run, the game will continue to focus on the Neracan plot, so you'll just have to make new characters and still be stuck in a situation you're not enjoying.

So, my advice would be: out of game, talk to the DM and the other players about how you and the other "more senior" player aren't enjoying the turn the game's taken. Try to find some way to leave the Neracan plot behind, if the others are willing, and get into something where your character feels he has a reason for staying with his party mates and perhaps where the newer players will moderate their behaviour a bit more.

Ossian
2008-07-09, 06:34 AM
Question (sorry if I missed your answer): who's the boss? is there a "Roy Greenhilt"? in your party? Because that solves it all.

The group as it has been described is kind of one of the most mismatching ensemble of murderers and wannabe avengers ever. I guess that happens a lot in RPG where everyone comes u "cool character concepts" and forces the DM to juggle with plotlines to create a spot for such types.

Most of the time, it is just another band of murderers, with occasional forays into the overarching plotline. You slaughter stuff and pillage stuff 6 days a week, and go on a quest for the local hottie and the greater good 1/week. Fair enough.

Now, if this is the case, and there is not a leader in the group, well, your DM is just not doing his job.

Just like the reason Belkar Bitterleaf made it to strip 573 (and counting) is because Roy sort of tolerated him. So, if the half ogre of your campaign can.

a) walk in the company of humans (WEIRD!!! he is an 1/2 ogre! enemy!!!)
b) be a jerk with the only good player of the party

it better be because there is a "boss" somewhere reprimending him r something to that effect.

Is there no leader in the group? Not even an NPC? Ok, fea not my friend, because that means that internal consistency of your campaign has been flushed down the drain ages before you even started to worry about the 1/2 ogre.

You don't even need to say "I did it for a greater good". Just say: "I don't like your character, (name of your friend), and so does my character. I killed your 1/2 ogre for roleplay reason. Roll the stats for your next char please"


O.

Eldariel
2008-07-09, 06:48 AM
I'd take the Half-Ogres life. He boasts by killing your family members, for Banjo's sake! People have been killed for lesser crimes. It doesn't hurt that the ½ Ogre is human (or well, half-ogre) garbage in every possible way - nobody would miss him, save for maybe the Stupid Evil Ranger.

Actually, do this:
-In an opportune sitiuation in combat, just let them die. Just don't raise a finger to save their asses and Get The Heck Out Of There, and rationalize that the odds were too strongly against us so you chose to fight another day. You're a Wizard. A Wizard does what nobody else can.


If an Elf finds you, just tell him "There's more going on here than you could possibly imagine." Heck, that could be the reason you're with the party; to make sure they die.

Alternatively, you could pull a Raistlin. Withstand the morons until you achieve godhood. They're maggots anyways.

Conners
2008-07-09, 06:57 AM
Yeah, I really have to agree with killing the Half-Ogre and the guy who tries to kill you. Unless your DM is a TOTAL jerk, he should think it's fine for you to murder those evil guys. Also, you could still stay.

That other mercenary whose friendly to you works for whoever pays him, right? You could pay him to help you kill the other two guys, but you want to make CERTAIN he won't betray you at the last moment for some reason (some guarantee of future gold would be appropriate). Try to get the other guy who doesn't like the direction of the campaign to join you in this, too. With 3 to 2, in your favour, the DM should see it as logical that the campaign takes the direction of what the remaining PCs want to do. Better still, you could institute yourself as leader, if you play your cards right. Heck, if you want to, kill only the half-ogre and keep the murderous guy on a tight leash with the aid of your companions. If he can't kill you in general, he certainly can't with the aid of two people.

That sound good?

JeminiZero
2008-07-09, 07:35 AM
I second (third? fourth?) killing the Ogre, and probably the Ranger. At your level, you should have access to Explosive Runes and dispel magic, the simplest recipe for instant kill. Gather everyone for a tea party, stand at least 15 ft away, and blow them up.

As for the semi-friendly but evil Fighter/Swash, while his help might be invaluable, his loyalty cannot be certain. Therefore I recommend killing the Ogre and Ranger without his help or knowledge, fleeing to a LG City, and THEN sending him a note telling him where you went, and invite him to join you.

PnP Fan
2008-07-09, 07:51 AM
You've got two options with regards to the brother murdering oger:
1. Avenge your brother's death.
2. Accept that his death occurred on the field of battle, and was an honorable one (if that is the case).

In any case, the ogre is behaving like a 12 year old. Treat him (the characters) as such. Eventually he'll get angry, and attack. All you have to do is kill him then. It'll be honorable combat, no one can dispute your right to kill him if he attacks first. You can then claim your ancestral adventuring gear and continue with the game.

As for the other guy, the one that tries to murder you. . . Why are you putting up with that in the first place? As a Player or as a Character? Next time he tries to kill you, kill him back. Your character is LN, not Good. Forgiveness is not, necessarily, in your nature. Especially if you can't find any support in the local legal system.

Tippy's right, your a full 6th level Wizard. You have the advantage. The ogre traded in class abilities for a weak class, and hit dice from his race. The ranger went for either two weapon fighting or rapid shot. A little spell armor, and a coup de grace in the night with a spell should take care of both of these guys.

Oh, and take care of the murderer first. He's actively trying to kill you. If you are burned out of spells after dealing with the ogre, he will try and kill you that night. The ogre doesn't expect you to kill him, or at least, isn't waiting for an opportunity to kill your character. Take care of him second, preferrably after a big fight where he's taken damage and you haven't.

Then, I'd go ahead and be ready to change characters, possibly two or three times. Either their next characters will seek vengance on their previous characters, for no good reason, or you should just send your character away, because he really has no good reason for being there. I think Invisibility is somewhere in your spell list at 6th level. If not, certainly Alter Self is. Disguise your way out.

Good luck!

Edit: Oh, and by the way, once you've rid yourself of these troublesome characters, and possibly moved on in the campaign with the other players, be more judgemental in who you allow to join the adventuring party. Just because the GM approves the characters doesn't mean that your character has to. Interview the characters, find out what they are about before you let them join your traveling party. If they are not up to snuff, tell them that "We don't have a need for a <insert character class/race/nationality> right now. Please come again later, our needs are constantly changing." Adventurers don't just travel with any only adventurer unless they are truly desperate.
BTW, as one of the two original characters in the story, how is it that there is a story left? And if there is a story, why isn't it revolving around the two of you, or whatever story the two of you took on at the beginning of the campaign? I'm smelling a bad GM that doesn't understand basic narrative principles, but I could be wrong.

Paul H
2008-07-09, 08:20 AM
Hi

Doesn't sound like you're having much fun in this campaign.

Pity you're not the party Cleric, or you could withold healing, plus the Holy Storm trick - "oops I forgot you were Evil when I included you in the Holy Storm..."

You could off the Half-Ogre - but what's the player like? Would they take it personally & try to get revenge? Ask the DM if there's any Holy weapons in the campaign, then let the problem carry them. (Or use them yourself).

If you need to off anyone, ask the Dm if you can use Lssr Orb spells to coup de gras, then use Lssr Cold Orb. That's 6D8 cold damage, plus Fort save vs instant death. No sign of violence on the body after the ice/cold dissapates.

Cheers
Paul H

xPANCAKEx
2008-07-09, 08:33 AM
If the Ogre is so horrible, surely he must have some sort of price on his head? Shop him in. That would be justice - and fairly LN

Infact - It would be LN to place the price on him yourself (descretely of course), bring a villain to justice. Of course if you were LE, you could just hire some cut throats (bound to be ten a penny in an evil city) to ambush and slay him next time hes out shopping or on his way to the temple.

Of Course hes probably your DMs favourite because he is such a "big" character. Hog the lime light a little yourself... some "avenge my brother" ritcheos action should swing over some lovely DM favour

PnP Fan
2008-07-09, 08:34 AM
Paul brings up a good point. Given what you're saying, I can honestly say, this is not a campaign I would enjoy. At all. Not even a little bit. Of course, different strokes for different folks, and if that's the game you and your friends enjoy, then great. But if all of this inter-party conflict is a problem in the game, where players are constantly seeking revenge against one another, you might want to deal with this stuff OOC, perhaps let the campaign die.

Jayabalard
2008-07-09, 08:49 AM
So, my advice would be: out of game, talk to the DM and the other players about how you and the other "more senior" player aren't enjoying the turn the game's taken. Try to find some way to leave the Neracan plot behind, if the others are willing, and get into something where your character feels he has a reason for staying with his party mates and perhaps where the newer players will moderate their behaviour a bit more.Ageed with this and Paul. This is an out of game problem. It doesn't sound like you're enjoying the game very much. The solution should really be an out of game solution rather than an in-game solution.

From my perspective you should Talk to the players and DM to see if you can't get the game to go in a direction that you'll enjoy. If you can't salvage the existing campaign, then maybe it's time to switch it up and start a different campaign. If you can't get them to budge, you either need to find a way to enjoy the game as it is, or take a walk and stop playing that particular game; sticking around in a game that you don't enjoy can strain friendships or even sour you on D&D in general, especially if you start killing other PCs and let that sort of thing escalate into revenge killing after revenge killing.

Kizara
2008-07-09, 08:50 AM
If you don't feel confident taking the ogre and ranger 2v1 at this level (understandable), just wait until you get to 9. You have more then enough options to take them then.


Honestly, you said your group likes optimizing (and you sound like you have the same playstyle I do, if less mature players)?

Who the heck goes ranger 6 in a self-respecting build? Is he archery or TWF spec? Both are bad, one is just wrose. You also note that he seems crap at playing the character in game and fails alot in combat. Someone needs to get voted off the island.

Now we have a half-ogre cleric-wannabe that goes out of his way to antagonize you? Garbage optimization-wise and is actively disruptive to the game (although for some reason your DM likes this :smallconfused:?). Should be cut as well.


It sounds like the trash is pulling you guys down with it and in a plot-direction you can't stand. Get the players/characters that mean something, draw a line in the sand, tell them (the H-Ogre and ranger) that they're done if they cross it. Hopefully they throw a fit and act like the tards they seem to be, then you can just kill them. If the players are redeemable tell them what you think about a character specifically made to antagonize you, and then tell them next time to bring something that can actually hold a candle to yours. (basically, if you are going to talk sheit and stir sheit up, you better be damn able to back it up)

Premier
2008-07-09, 09:02 AM
The problem is that you have several pretty serious OOC problems. Now, here's an important fact that that OotS-ers tend to ignore (or are not even aware of) 99% of the time:

OOC problems cannot be solved by IC solutions. If you have OOC (and/or metagaming) problems with the game, bring it up with the DM and the players, not with the characters. IC "solutions" will just make everything worse in the long run.

Read that again. Memorise it. Internalise it.

Having said that, the only sensible thing you can do is wait for a good opportunity, preferably not in the middle of the game, and just explain to the others that you have a number of problems with the game. And if the resulting discussion doesn't solve your problems, then vote with your feet and stop playing with these people.

Now, at this point, you might be tempted to say "But they're my friends! I can't just leave their game, that would hurt our friendship!" Think about this again, for a moment. If friends don't cause each other grief over the game, than they shouldn't be doing it to you - maybe they're not aware that they're doing it, that's why you need to bring it up. If they're truly your friend and are worht playing with, they'll partake in intelligent conversation and try to come up with a solution. Alternatively, if it's okay for friends to grief each other over the game, than that works both ways and it's okay for you to grief them by leaving and finding another gaming group.

Anyway, back to what to do: so, sit down with them and discuss your problems in a calm and reasonable manner, but be affirmative. Rule 0 is that everyone should have fun. You have as much right to have fun with the game as the others, never forget that. The way I see it, you have the following problems (I might be wrong, so do clarify):

- The campaign started out as a Good/Neutral one, then it slowly slipped into an Evil game as new characters arrived. You prefer Good/Neutral campaigns and have no interest in Evil ones.

- As a corollary to the above, your fellow players seem to be totally insensitive to other players' preferences, as evidenced by them starting to create Evil characters for a non-Evil party. This is a big NO. It might be fun to try out new builds and whatnot, but party integrity takes precedence. Every character ever created is mandated by the rules to take either the "Meshes Well With The Already Existing Characters" feat, or the "Won't Cause Friction In The Party" racial template. A character lacking both is simply not a legal character in D&D.

- The DM is favouring one particular PC (Trook), and so much so that he's basing the entire game around him. You feel that Trook's player is hugging all the spotlight from the others, who are relegated to virtual NPC roles. (Other players might even agree with you on this one.)

- One player - and make no mistake, it's the player, not the character - is deliberately frustrating you (Trook's). For gods' sake, he created a character specifically to abuse yours constantly! This is never, EVER acceptable.



Frankly, no offense, but it seems your fellow players are pretty, well, ****e, at least as roleplayers. I probably would have left a long time ago.

kamikasei
2008-07-09, 09:17 AM
The problem is that you have several pretty serious OOC problems. Now, here's an important fact that that OotS-ers tend to ignore (or are not even aware of) 99% of the time:

I agree with your advice, but want to point out that the "don't try to solve OOC problems in-game" principle is brought up all the time on these boards by any number of different posters, including in this thread by a few people.

Jayabalard
2008-07-09, 09:27 AM
I agree with your advice, but want to point out that the "don't try to solve OOC problems in-game" principle is brought up all the time on these boards by any number of different posters, including in this thread by a few people.yeah, but the ratio of rational people who preach the "solve ooc problems with ooc methods" gospel to people who just offer suggestions on how to off the rest of his party is pretty small. In this thread, the people suggesting killing the party outnumber the "talk to the players/DM" by about 2:1. I've seen threads that go multiple pages before someone says "whoa, wait, time out, you've got to talk to the players/DM and deal with this out of game"

warmachine
2008-07-09, 11:12 AM
Have to agree with Premier. At the very least, I'd state that a bloody intraparty conflict is a logical consequence of character values and beliefs and suggest that reality be edited to eliminate the reason for conflict.

Let's assume the others aren't jerks and they say that bloody in-fighting makes a good story and they wouldn't be upset if their PCs were backstabbed or betrayed for vaid in-character reasons. Well, I try to avoid assuming the worst of people. Your character conspires with the others to make sure they stay out of the conflict, then you call out Trook in a duel for murdering your brother and kill him. It would be entirely consistent with the character.

If my assumption is incorrect, you don't have a real world reason to stay, let alone a roleplaying reason.

Kizara
2008-07-09, 02:18 PM
yeah, but the ratio of rational people who preach the "solve ooc problems with ooc methods" gospel to people who just offer suggestions on how to off the rest of his party is pretty small. In this thread, the people suggesting killing the party outnumber the "talk to the players/DM" by about 2:1. I've seen threads that go multiple pages before someone says "whoa, wait, time out, you've got to talk to the players/DM and deal with this out of game"

At least for me, giving this sort of advice is repetitive and boring. It's much funner and more satisfying to be able to say "yea! go kick his ass!". This is how the Action Movie genre is structured :).

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-09, 04:18 PM
I always recommend solving problems with a storyline OOC too, but come on! Imagine if someone dangled an item from a slain family member in front of you and bragged about killing them... there's no way to calmly step back from that or work out a truce. You'd have to have some deep emotional issues (or serious family troubles!) for that not to affect you.

Definately discuss with the DM and other players how uncomfortable your character is with the the very dark path this is going to take. Understand that the DM might already have it planned that you follow this plot and you may end up having to adjust your characters expectations in order to continue playing him. There may be a good reason the game is going this way.

However, at the end of the day, the half ogre has to die. Don't kill him because you want to solve some OOC issue. Don't kill him because you as a player want him dead. Kill him because as a character he has murdered, slandered, and continues to defile your families memory. Some crimes don't warrant forgiveness or mercy! :smallfurious:

Eldariel
2008-07-09, 04:35 PM
Just about the 'Lawful Neutral isn't necessarily forgiving', Lawful actually offers the option of being very rigid and unforgiving. For example, Judge Dredd is definitely a Lawful character (really the epitome of Lawful), and he wouldn't forgive anyone for anything (without still being Evil). So by alignment, you've definitely got justifications to kill both of the offending party members.

Further, the party is evil, which tends to create internal conflict, a lot of it. Evil party also should have no issues solving the conflict through blood, especially if it's longstanding and requires vengeance, such as the acting of the Half-Ogre.

So IC, the character has every justification to kill them both.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-09, 05:51 PM
An optimized Mystic? I was a Mystic in a Dragonlance campaign for a while, but I was totally not optimized. And my party, though evil, didn't want to kill me, either. (I was the only Neutral member). Eventually I converted to a Cleric of Reorx, but anyway...

Oh, yeah, that's off topic.

Um, I agree that this is totally an OOC problem. Especially the guy that keeps trying to kill you for no apparent reason.

erikun
2008-07-09, 08:41 PM
Okay, sounds like you have an OOC problem and an IC problem.

The OOC problem is that the DM isn't considering your character at all. It sounds like he's focusing all the party's plotlines around the half-Ogre and the Neracan angle, and doesn't seem to care about much else. I could be reading this wrong - perhaps the DM is very hands-off, and that's just where your party ended up - but it doesn't sound like it. You need to get in touch with your DM and let him know that the game has pretty much ignored your character's motivations and has focused on the half-Orge's. You'll want to have some examples of your character's motivations for the DM to work with, so think of what goals your character wants to pursue.

If that doesn't work, consider removing your character via deus ex machina. One morning, the party suddenly finds the elf missing - it turns out the elf used a teleport scroll in the middle of the night to return home and report on what he found out in Neraca. He'll likely become a recurring BBNG, but at least he'll still have your character's values - sticking with the elves, and fighting the evil Neracans. It's up to you if you want to roll up another character at that point or not.

I'm assuming the party friction is IC rather than OOC. If it is OOC, you'll need to talk to your DM about that, too.

Your IC problems are a lot easier to fix, actually. Assuming your character doesn't end up teleporting away, the half-Ogre/ranger problems seem almost intending on solving themselves. Just wait for the ranger to get himself killed - highly likely the way things are heading. That night, wake up the swashbuckler, let him know you're leaving the Neracan mess and offer him the oportunity to go with you. Then, use a sleep potion on the half-Ogre, take your brother's equipment and all the half-Ogre's supplies (offer the swashbuckler anything he wants, except your brother's equipment) and then leave the half-Orge behind. Make sure you take his weapon and holy symbol, and he'll be pretty much useless. That's a far better revenge that stabbing him in his sleep, after all - and you can direct the storyline somewhere away from Neraca from there.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-09, 09:44 PM
Agree with those saying that this isn't working because players aren't being cooperative--and go re-read the bolded section in Premier's post a few times. So you need to deal with your fellow players--and especially, at least talk it through with your DM--not just try to fix your character's background. You can write motivation till the cows come home, and if (the following is hyperbole for illustrative purposes) Bobby the Powermad Gamer is intent on having his character kill everyone in the party because he thinks it would be fun, that motivation is going to do squat.

D&D is a cooperative tabletop game, not a MMORPG designed for PVP pwning. Sure, people can play evil, and people can play jerks, but if PCs are out to get each other--which generally means players are out to prove "the awesome" of their characters more than play WITH each other--then there's no point to playing D&D with each other at all. Sure, it's fun to do the occasional arena style battle or whatever, but trying to play a plot-filled campaign with players who want to play intentionally antagonistic (or loner) PCs is sort of like trying to bathe a feral cat. It's just not going to work out for you.

So, like everyone else has said, talk to your GM and talk to your players about, "hey guys, if we really want to play an RPG here, we need to come up with a group backstory and stop trying to hack each other to bits."

If they don't want to, then you want an RPG and they want a hackfest. IMHO, in that case, get rid of the character sheets and story entirely and play some D&D Miniatures, or introduce them to full on wargaming. Honestly (this is coming from both an avid RPGer and wargamer), you'll probably have a whole lot more fun that way.

Aquillion
2008-07-09, 09:53 PM
All you people suggesting that he kill the half-ogre in his sleep are missing something:

Trook: LE half-ogre mystic 5 (weak cleric-like class). Entered play at adjusted level 4, and is the players 3rd character in the campaign. This is the DMs favourite PC.From the sounds of it, the DM has basically railroaded the entire campaign around this guy. Kill him in his sleep? Yeah, good luck with that.

There are plenty of DMs that would let you get away with this... but if we were talking about one of them, I doubt the OP would be in this situation in the first place.

Lochar
2008-07-09, 10:07 PM
Summoning can be done from a distance greater than the h-ogre can wake up, get up from prone, and partial charge. So by the rules, you could get a Summon Monster III off and get a huge fiendish monstrous centipede to play with him while you summon more friends.

The_Werebear
2008-07-09, 10:53 PM
You want an RP reason to stay with them?


You want to kill that self righteous Half Ogre Bastard. Having him be dead isn't enough. You have to kill him yourself. Not in his sleep either. You want him to suffer, to see all he has cast down before him, to let him weep over the ashes of everything he ever cared about, just as you weep for your lost brother.

But for this complete revenge to be a reality, you can't let him know it is coming. Let him build. Let him plan, and gain power. You're becoming stronger too, and watching him. Learn his secrets. His habits. His strengths and weaknesses. Shield him from the less worthy who would rob him from your hand. Build him into a tool that you know exactly how to break. And when the time is right, and when he thinks he has triumphed, destroy him utterly in your brother's name.

Good enough?

Gamgee
2008-07-09, 11:04 PM
You said Lawful neutral? Your problem seems quite simple to me... http://www.cold-moon.com/images/Motivators/Alignments/lawfulneutral.jpg

Since you are the law, you know what to do. Kill them with style and bring judgment upon their souls... that teaches them to mess with elves. Now all you need is a cool weapon to take them out. Explain to the DM your alignment, plan to kill them, and show him this picture. I am sure he will understand... heh heh.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-09, 11:04 PM
What's the god of the Ogres and Minotaurs and stuff, in Dragonlance? I should know it, it's the guy we worked for for most of the quest...

Started with an S....

Gamgee
2008-07-09, 11:05 PM
Ends with litting their throat?

Aquillion
2008-07-09, 11:09 PM
Anyway, more seriously: Kamir has been trying to kill you. The half-ogre you have more than enough justification to attack (he certainly seems to want it.)

I assume, from the way you talked, that the fourth member of your party is unhappy with the way things are going, too... and it sounds like the two of you are more than capable of taking out the other two if you take them by surprise.

So, um, go ahead and do it. I recommend not killing them in their sleep (that's no fun for anyone involved, really), but you shouldn't need to do it anyway... just do it when you're alone so they can't call in help. Those two people are the ones tying you to the Neracan storyline, so kill them dead, then flee immediately and their new characters will have to be tied to something else.

Yes, yes, you could try and talk it out with your DM and the other characters OOC... but, honestly, it sounds like this is the way they want it to go down. I mean, Kamir is openly trying to murder you. Give them the fight they want.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-09, 11:09 PM
Ends with litting their throat?

Haha, no no. I just looked it up: Sargonnas! Yeah, get him to smite the Half-Ogre for not worshipping him.

Yahzi
2008-07-10, 12:29 AM
...Carries my characters brothers beaten up mythril shield and bloody tabard, and frequently brags about how he took those things as trophies after killing a 'pointy eared paladin'.

...He has murdered several innocent people in front of my character

...I would become a dark elf immediately.

What would you do in my place to make my character continued involvement in the plot make sense?
You already said it. Your character has a change of heart, goes LE, laughs at his brother's death for being "too weak to live," always kills two innocents when the murder kills one, and eventually sells out the party to a TPK in exchange for his own safety.

Ellisar
2008-07-10, 04:00 AM
OP here! So many great replies, I almost dont know where to start!

I guess Trook has become the DMs favourite character, because the players last character died right when we decided to leg it and take refuge in Haven, and the DM made the Trook a Neracan offícial with a lot connections to people with dirty work that needed to be done, and the squire of a blue dragon knight who watches over him and basically swoops down and saves his ass every time he is in trouble. This has made Trook an invulnerable default party leader during this story arc, so any bad stuff that might happen will be happening very quietly and without direct confrontation, just to be safe.

I also talked to the DM about the brother buisness, and it turns out that he haven autorised it at all. Trook were allowed to start with a mythril shield and trophies from his time as a mercenary, but the DM had no idea that he would start with those items. He decided to let it fly though, and enspects the party to work it out ourselves. Personally I think that this character is made ro avenge his last character, who died at the test of high sorcery because my character had taken a scroll of his unconcious body an attempt to save the parties backside in an earlier dungeon crawl.

As for Kamir trying to kill my character, one of you got it just right; he is so horribly built that he is basically not a threat to anyone but commoners. He did not choose either the ranged or the TWF path, he chose BOTH! He gets ranged feats from his class IIRC, but he selects TWF through his regular feats. In his mind, this bsetup is wicked strong because it means that he can do both things equally good, and therefore have the 'power of two rangers in one character'. At least its not as bad as his first character in this campaign, a dwarven sorceror who fought with a spiked chain that he were not proficient with, while using Shield and Enlarge Person to 'boost his melee powers through the roof!'. The player is without a doubt the worst optimizer I have ever seen, and Trooks player is not too good either.

Anyway, I have started to shop for a teleport scroll and some way of rendering Trook unconcious while the swashbuckler and I are looting him of everything he owns (enchantment are one of my forbidden schools :smallfrown: ). The plan is to let him live for now, but rob him blind. When he comes after us to get his revenge as an NPC, the story will be diffrent.

Aquillion
2008-07-10, 04:48 AM
Anyway, I have started to shop for a teleport scroll and some way of rendering Trook unconcious while the swashbuckler and I are looting him of everything he owns (enchantment are one of my forbidden schools :smallfrown: ). The plan is to let him live for now, but rob him blind. When he comes after us to get his revenge as an NPC, the story will be diffrent.But won't the DM just make you into the NPCs? I thought that was the problem. Obviously, if you have a method to convert him into an NPC, you should, but right now it sounds like you're the one in danger.

You need to kill him. If you're going to split, it's the only way to protect your PC-ness; if he's alive, the story will follow him and your characters' brains will collapse into NPCness, but if he's dead then the story's point of view has to follow you by default. It's self-defense on your part, really. He has done something much worse than threatening your characters' lives -- he threatens their PCness, simply by existing.

He must die. Preferably by a means that precludes resurrection (turning him into a mindless undead will work as long as you can keep the undead you create from getting destroyed.)

Srsly. Kill him and take his screen time.

Baxbart
2008-07-10, 07:48 AM
I'm with Werebear on this one. His response gave me the right kinda shivers! I love a good revenge story, and to be honest it be nice to actually carry out that sort of thing... But at the same time I'd probably grow impatient and just slaughter them both anyway.

I know where you're coming from though. I'm in a game at the moment (Eberron) where one of the party members is constantly insulting people to their faces and murdering people willy-nilly (when you're a ninth-level gestalt... there isn't a whole lot to stop you in this setting). I got tired of his crap last session and just thrashed him to all hell in the town square. Think he went down to about 10% HP in the opening round. Then I stepped back and called him on his behaviour.

The best bit was that all the witnesses sided with me, having saw the way he behaved and provoked me (he quite literally insulted me to my face, so I calmly asked if he was talking 'in-character', and he said yes) and the town guard ran to my aid to arrest him.

Granted, the DM had sorta guessed it was coming. He'd already gotten himself into a scrap with one of the other PCs before - but my character (and you're probably in the same position in terms of optimisation) was considerably more thought out than his Centaur Ranger//Psywarrior (just... don't ask...).

The moral of the story always comes back to rule 0. Everyone should be having fun. If one player is being an ass (in and out of character), then call him on it, get the nod from the DM, and then beat the living hell out of him in punishment. If he can't handle the blow to his over-inflated ego, then maybe he shouldn't be playing a team-orientated game in the first place.

The_Werebear
2008-07-10, 04:39 PM
Glad you liked the wording Bax. I've done a few revenge stories. Of course, this goes along with the idea that you want to stay with the party and need to justify it. If you just want to GTFO quickly, I'm with the crowd that says kill him then and there and move on.

By the way, if you do decide to rob him and run, make sure he is very incapable of responding to you. Would it be in character for you to cripple Trook by lopping his hands off so he can't cast spells?

OOTS_Rules 2
2008-07-10, 07:27 PM
Talk to the other players and DM. Ask them if they are having a good time in Trookland and wait for a response. If the majority says no, leave the group with them and form a new one, or demand a change in game.

Turcano
2008-07-10, 09:14 PM
Normally I wouldn't advocate inter-party violence, but then again, I don't play in evil parties if I can help it (as another poster pointed out, you seem to be in the same boat, as the party has changed around you). But the way this situation is set up, you really have no option but to kill the offending PCs. You have implicit DM permission, one player has actually tried to kill you (which makes him fair game in any case), and the other player is asking for it at every opportunity.

Taking out the ranger should be no problem at all. However, you'll need to be very, very careful with handling the half-ogre, as he will clearly be as impatient for this as you will when the time comes, and therefore probably has a trick up his sleeve if he has any brains whatsoever. Try to do a surreptitious inventory check at an available opportunity to make sure he doesn't have any nasty surprises in store for you. And I do agree that you should make him unresurrectable; the simplest way to do this is to cremate his remains and dispose of them in a body of running water (like what you do with vampires). This will make it impossible to resurrect him without resorting to true resurrection or outright divine intervention, both of which are flagrant DM fiat.

Ellisar
2008-07-10, 09:39 PM
Your input has been most appreciated, but my characters exact course of action is pretty much unpredictable until the next session, in which I will do whatever I find easiest to get away with to get Trook and Kamir.

Yeah, robbing them blind and fleeing does leave the risk of being reduced to an NPC, but I have always considered deliberate interparty fighting bad form, and I would much prefer if I could avoid PvP even if it is called for and would be the easiest thing to do. If I can get hold of any plot vital items the half-ogre might have, the campaign would have to follow me in order to advance, so robbing them blind and fleeing MIGHT work.

Should interparty violence be unavoidable, I plan on dumping some Explosive Runes on Trooks supply of healing scrolls for emergency use, as he will probably either be very weak already when he uses them, standing next to a wounded or dying Kamir when he uses them, or both. If I play my cards right I can make it seem like an NPC did it and avoid further retaliations.

ireina
2008-07-11, 12:19 AM
What about a good old-fashioned duel? Do you think you could goad him into making it a REAL duel-to-the-death by somehow formally revoking the assistance of the blue dragon knight NPC deus-ex-machina guy? (on the basis that you need vengeance for your brother, and that if he won't pre-emptively revoke the blue dragon knight's assistance, he's admitting that he can't kill you.)

Or if not a duel to the death, then just a duel - to determine "who calls the shots among this group." No idea if that's practical

If you are TRULY thinking in character.... there's always the option that Trook lied about the mithril shield being your brothers' in the first place. Did your character acknowledge recognition of these items? If not, here is an option for you: Your char assumed he never saw those particular valuable possessions of his brother's because they were locked away somewhere. But then it dawns him, "This is a lie - the guy just knew my brother's name because my family was high profile - he never fought my brother; he might never even have fought my people." And then you can bully Trook into admitting that he lied about those items, or about how he acquired it ...maybe he got them from some stupid goblins. (force him to retroactively change his RP - this has the nice advantage that the DM was uncomfortable with his RP too.)

How, you might ask, could you bully a character who is the default party leader and has the advantages of being on his "home turf" and being invulnerable to death?

A few suggestions of my husband's:

Alarm his good equipment, and specify him as one of the things the alarm spell reacts to - he'll have to choose between an alarm spell going off a foot away from him permanently, or give up the equipment.

Sleep him, perhaps tie him up and set up an embarrassing or "awkward" situation.

Frame him for multiple crimes. Illusions are great for this. I'm sure there are other situation specific things to do with the right illusion too.

Charm person him while he sleeps. Or, wait till you can lesser geas him. There are, of course, a million ways to abuse suggestion in this context too.

Magic aura his equipment that doesn't have activatable powers, and tell him an angel disenchanted it - or better yet, an agent of his deity, as a punishment for his misdeeds. Or better yet, use a message spell or some other spell to have him hear in his head that his deity is thus punishing him. Or, invent the punishment of your choice, and use other magic to make it look like he really is on his god's badlist.

Unseen servant... I'm sure you can think of unfriendly things to do to him, or better yet, his equipment. The thing is invisible and long lasting too.

Use shrink item on his good or vital nonmagical equipment. He has to suck up to you to get it back. Invis or some such may be necessary to get close enough, or simply do it at night. This, unfortunately, is a 3rd level spell, which may reduce your ability to take him down if he attacks you over the matter, but still.

And the all-time most horrible: sleeping him and removing a limb. AUUUUGGGHHhhhh!

This doesn't even get into what you could do with an opportunity to buy stuff.

You do, of course, have to be prepared to kill him if the DM just tells him you did that. (as opposed to letting you do this in secret).

Maybe you'll pull off enough style points that you'll switch to being the DM's new favorite vengeful guy sidetracking the plot. Except you'll be doing it the right way. In character.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-11, 01:35 AM
Magic aura his equipment that doesn't have activatable powers, and tell him an angel disenchanted it - or better yet, an agent of his deity, as a punishment for his misdeeds. Or better yet, use a message spell or some other spell to have him hear in his head that his deity is thus punishing him. Or, invent the punishment of your choice, and use other magic to make it look like he really is on his god's badlist.

Just a note, he probably doesn't have a deity. If he did, he'd be a Cleric. (Unless he's really dumb.)

Turcano
2008-07-11, 05:12 AM
Should interparty violence be unavoidable, I plan on dumping some Explosive Runes on Trooks supply of healing scrolls for emergency use, as he will probably either be very weak already when he uses them, standing next to a wounded or dying Kamir when he uses them, or both. If I play my cards right I can make it seem like an NPC did it and avoid further retaliations.

That would be the best course of action. Provided you discuss this plan with your DM in private and not in front of the relevant player's face (even note-passing would arouse suspicion), that's probably the epitome of plausible deniability.

my_evil_twin
2008-07-20, 02:02 PM
Premier's advice is good. I would add that you should take the players aside (and maybe the DM) and find out what they're trying to do.

Your half-ogre friend is acting in a blatantly provocative manner. There are only IC reasons I could see for it: either (a) he wants a fight or (b) he wants to assert dominance. Ask the player which of these it is. If he picks (c) neither, he's just having fun, ask him to knock it off, because it's not fun for you and it's making RPing impossible for your character. If he answers (a) or (b), work out with him a time to oblige him in character.

Give the half-ogre the fight he wants, or some sort of conflict that will leave one of the two characters either dead or with a clear understanding of the new power structure. Since your character could probably handle his, a sound whupping gives him an IC reason to shut his face. You don't have to kill him if you can win his respect and/or fear. If your character loses, you should be prepared to have him leave town.

This is assuming that the other player is interested in a cooperative storytelling game and isn't just acting out power fantasies. If he won't stop pushing and won't put up with your character pushing back, it's time to roll up a character that can tolerate his, or leave the campaign.

Again, with the ranger, take the player aside and ask: Does he (the player) want your character dead? If the answer is no, ask him to stop trying to make that happen. If the answer is yes, there's no simply no IC solution.

If the ranger's player doesn't actually want your character gone, work something out. Perhaps you can make a deal: His character can show (or feign) repentance for the innocents he's killed, and of course refrain from killing your character. In return, your character needs to stop trying to turn him in to the authorities.

Your character is the one that doesn't fit here. It sucks that the game moved in a different direction, but you might want to see if there are any changes you could tolerate making to your character's personality that would remove some of the conflict, too.

If, at the end of the day, you can't have fun, there's no shame in telling everyone so. Join another campaign. Play Mass Effect. Whatever. Sometimes a certain campaign just isn't the most fun thing you could be doing with your time.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-21, 01:55 AM
Assuming Necro isn't one of your banned schools, consider waiting until lvl 7 and dropping a Bestow Curse on him while he's asleep. Drug him or something if you want to ensure some sleepytime. Talk to the DM about it first. This needs to happen "behind the scenes" so to speak. make sure you are disguised in some fashion, hire a lady of ill repute to seduce him and then drug him (or just get him really really liqoured up) While he's passed out after a long night, lay a hand on him and bestow the curse. give the woman his wallet for added insult. Dropping a -6 on either his primary casting stat or stringth/con is sort of nice, depending on how he plays. Though if he'smore of a combat monkey hitting him with one of the other basic options is far more crippling.

After you do the deed, don't gloat. Don't even acknowledge that something is wrong. his first assumption will be to hunt down the woman, who'll be able to tell him next to nothing. He'll probably (ooc) asume it's part of the plot, not retribution from another player. he might even come to you for magical advice. if so, feel free to send him on whatever sort of wild goose chase you feel like dreaming up.

fleet
2008-07-21, 03:50 AM
I'm not sure how much this helps, but one of my favorite scenes from an evil game, was when the DM saddled me as a pirate captain, with an oversized crew of pcs, and npcs. (5 pcs, 11npcs) and an undersized gold reward, (50 gp for 6 weeks work).

My solution was to take the most competent of the evil players aside, and explain that the gold would'nt split 16 ways, and we needed to make it split two ways instead. Then after a successful battle, i used the parties trust in me to stage a major party in which everyone got drunk, and i convinced the dm i was just being a good captain by rewarding the crew. I then had my evil first mate, inform the dm that he had decided to randomly kill the entire crew. The dm let him keep going, figuring that since i was on watch, i would stop him. :smallamused:

If you have a pc accomplice, you can overcome dues ex mechina.
My suggestion is that you pay the mercenary to challenge the half ogre to a duel, while you sit by with a healing potion in case the loser gets too injured. Then, when the pathetically unoptimized cleric build fails in combat, you walk over, and hand the potion to the mercenary, and then offload every fire spell you have on the clerics body. IF the dm brings the charred ash back to life, you have a Serious problem with favoritism. Note, the key to this strategy, is that the dm believes this is normal posturing, and not a deliberate attempt to destroy a player character.

alternately, pick up a helm of opposite alignment and wear it. Go chaotic evil and enjoy the game.

wumpus
2008-07-23, 07:30 PM
Does this look to anybody else like something that would lead directly to the "rocks fall, everybody dies" scenario. Not the cliche, but the part where one character slays the quest-giving King? This us your chance to sabotage an enemy party at the perfect moment (especially if the .5Ogre is leader). The big difference was that all your information is not only in character, but has been written all over your character sheet from day one.

Yes, OOC it would be bad. On the other hand, every PRGer should be present at one of these events.