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Zeta Kai
2008-07-10, 12:29 PM
I have a question about the mechanics of the game FATAL. Now, I want to be perfectly clear: I have never played FATAL, not do I ever intend to do so. This is not intended to be a thread to discuss the pros or cons of the game's other content. From what I can tell by reading the samples & reviews, I believe that it is the worst RPG ever made, both for fluff & crunch reasons. But I don't want to discuss its many flaws, suc has the myopic & disturbing focus on rape, or its egregiously racist & misogynist aspects; nor do I wish to brooch a discourse with any apologists who wish to defend the game on these issues.

My question is one of mechanics, specifically the ability score generation rolls. The game has you generate each of the 20 ability scores by rolling 4d100, dividing the result by 2, & then subtracting 1. To put it simply: (4d100/2)-1. This gives you a minimum roll of 1, an average mean roll of 100, & a maximum roll of 199.

This seems to be an obtuse way to generate scores. I can kinda see where the game designer was coming from, in a way, but this seems so... inelegant. If you simply rolled 2d100, & then subtracted 1, you'd end up with the exact same results; to put it simply: 2d100-1. This also gives you a minimum roll of 1, an average mean roll of 100, & a maximum roll of 199. I think people would have had less issue with the insane math of FATAL if it had simply been made more sane (I can only assume that the lack of any editor is to blame).

I guess my real question is: Why? Why was this ugly game given such ugly mechanics? I mean, I suppose that it's only fitting; but still, this example is just one of many instances where a much simpler solution is quite evident, & must've been staring the game designer right in the face. I understand quite well that FATAL is a window into a fairly disturbed mind, but numbers are numbers, & I find it hard to believe that such simplicities simply escaped the designer of even the worse game EVAR.

Telonius
2008-07-10, 12:34 PM
I'm not a statistics expert, but I assume that it's something similar to the difference between 1d12 and 2d6. I'd have to see the tables, but wouldn't there be more of a clustering of possibilities at the top and bottom for 4d100, than for 2d100?

EDIT: Yeah, what Heliomance said.

Behold_the_Void
2008-07-10, 12:34 PM
From what I've heard the guy is going for sheer complexity, and is probably actually TRYING to make it confusing to further the feel of it being an uber game for smart people.

Heliomance
2008-07-10, 12:34 PM
The standard deviation for the two methods is different. I really can't be bothered to do the maths on it, especially as all my statistics knowledge is half-remembered from a year or two ago, but I think that the way it does it by the rules produces a bell curve tighter around the mean - the results will be less evenly distributed and more clustered around the mean.

2008-07-10, 01:57 PM
The more dice you have, the more pronounced your curve will be as edge values are harder and harder to obtain.

For instance, a d12 has a flat curve as each result can roll one way:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

2d6 is different because there are 6 ways to roll a 7, but 1 way to roll a 2 or a 12, and no way to score a 1.
1(-); 2(1,1); 3(1,2 2,1); 4(1,3 3,1 2,2); 5(1,4 4,1 2,3 3,2); 6(1,5 5,1 2,4 4,2 3,3); 7(1,6 6,1 2,5 5,3 3,4 4,3); 8(2,6 6,2 3,5 5,3 4,4); 9(3,6 6,3 4,5 5,4); 10(4,6 6,4 5,5); 11(5,6 6,5); 12(6,6)

If you mapped the height of each of those parentheticals you'd get a bell curve. The middle being 7 because it has more possible ways to get rolled than any other sum. 3d4 would be even steeper and 6d2 would be steeper than that.

In short, fatal is trying to keep stats somewhere in the middle, rather than having too many extremes. Seems counterintuitive that fatal would ever try to reduce an extreme.

Baron Corm
2008-07-10, 02:14 PM
For my own curiosity I just wrote out the outcomes for a 1d4 vs. a 2d4/2. Probably a similar effect for the FATAL example, though I still think the author made his system that way just to piss us off.

1
2
3
4

25% chance of rolling any given number.

or

1+1 / 2 = 1
1+2 / 2 = 1.5
1+3 / 2 = 2
1+4 / 2 = 2.5
2+2 / 2 = 2
2+3 / 2 = 2.5
2+4 / 2 = 3
3+3 / 2 = 3
3+4 / 2 = 3.5
4+4 / 2 = 4

You have a 20% chance of rolling a 1, a 40% chance of rolling a 2, a 30% chance of rolling a 3, and a 10% chance of rolling a 4.

Jayabalard
2008-07-10, 02:41 PM
I guess my real question is: Why? Why was this ugly game given such ugly mechanics?because 4d100/2 -1 gives a different bell curve than 2d100 - 1. the former is much more heavily weighted toward the middle.

The more dice you roll, the greater the tendency is toward the middle of the range.

Just as an example:

to get a 1 using 2d100 - 1, you have to roll two 1's on D100. That's a 1/10000 chance
Assuming that you round up: to get a 1 using 4D100/2 - 1 you have to roll four 1's on D100. That's a 1/100000000 chance.
Assuming that you round down: to get a 1 using 4D100/2 - 1 you have to roll one of the following combinations: {(1,1,1,1),(2,1,1,1),(1,2,1,1),(1,1,2,1),(1,1,1,2) }. That's a 5/100000000 chance.

Chronos
2008-07-10, 05:39 PM
The standard deviation for the two methods is different. I really can't be bothered to do the maths on it, especially as all my statistics knowledge is half-remembered from a year or two ago, but I think that the way it does it by the rules produces a bell curve tighter around the mean - the results will be less evenly distributed and more clustered around the mean.The variance of a single n-sided die is (n2 - 1)/12, so the variance of a d100 is 833.25 . When you roll multiple dice and add (or subtract) them, you add the variances, so 2d100 has a variance of 1666.5, and 4d100 has a variance of 3333. The standard deviation is the square root of the variance, so 2d100 has a standard deviation of 40.82, and 4d100 has a standard deviation of 57.73 . Finally, if you divide a random number by a constant, the standard deviation is divided by that same constant, so (4d100/2) has a standard deviation of 28.87 , significantly lower than the standard deviation of 2d100.

The two distributions also have different shapes. With just two dice, the distribution isn't even bell-shaped at all, but triangular. You need at least three dice to get any bell shape at all, and the more dice you throw, the better an approximation you get to a Gaussian distribution.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-10, 05:40 PM
Of course, if you asked Byron Hall why they used 4D100/2 - 1, I'm sure he would say it's because it's totally realistic.

Jack Mann
2008-07-10, 06:32 PM
I remember reading about this. Apparently, at one point he had a slightly less absurd method of determining stats that reached the same number. He showed this to someone who actually knew a few things about game design. Said person thought the original method was a bit unwieldy, and said, "You might as well do something like (4d100/2)-1." Byron Hall decided that this even more complicated method was better, and adopted it immediately.

This was, naturally, before he released his monster of a game, trolled the gaming world, and showed to everyone just what a moron he was.

elliott20
2008-07-11, 12:37 AM
anybody actually ever tried playing this game or even reading through it? I tried looking for it online but all I can see are some old archived posts on RPG.net.

Stormthorn
2008-07-11, 01:14 AM
anybody actually ever tried playing this game or even reading through it? I tried looking for it online but all I can see are some old archived posts on RPG.net.

Im going to buy this sucker and read it through. Someone had a review online and they had what seemed like a valid point.

If you stop bitching about how the game alows sex then you might notice that the math is very sound and detailed and allows you to generate chances of virtualy anything occuring.

He rated the game fairly high.

So, rather than hate on it without any experiance like some sort of brain-dead media zombie, im gonna try to find it real cheap and give it a read-through. Heavy math isnt my thing, but i can understand it if i need to. Im doing this for the people!

TheOOB
2008-07-11, 01:33 AM
Im going to buy this sucker and read it through. Someone had a review online and they had what seemed like a valid point.

If you stop bitching about how the game alows sex then you might notice that the math is very sound and detailed and allows you to generate chances of virtualy anything occuring.

He rated the game fairly high.

So, rather than hate on it without any experiance like some sort of brain-dead media zombie, im gonna try to find it real cheap and give it a read-through. Heavy math isnt my thing, but i can understand it if i need to. Im doing this for the people!

I tried reading it, and promptly stopped somewhere between where it requires you to roll for anal circumference, and the very misogynist section on rape.

It would be funny, if only it wasn't someone's honest-to-god attempt to make a good system. A lot of love was put into FATAL, horrible misguided love, but love none the less. It's like Plan 9 from outer space...but with more rape.

I'm just surprised that such a horrible mistake of a system generated an honest intelligent conversation about dice averages and bell curves.

Ascension
2008-07-11, 01:37 AM
Although I realize they're theoretically completely optional, I just wouldn't be able to get past the terrible, terrible magic items even if I thought that the core system was the best bunch of crunch ever to grace the page... and I don't. Come on, there's got to be a way to simulate virtually everything without appearing to be a racist boor in the process.

icefractal
2008-07-22, 01:02 AM
From the reviews I've seen, even if you ignore the offensive stuff, and the blatantly stupid stuff, and the embarrassingly juvenile stuff, it pretty much fails at being a realistic or logical system as well. It's got a huge mess of attributes and derived attributes that interact with each-other in nonsensical ways, the skill system is both complicated and extremely random, and the injury system indicates they went through an anatomy book for a list of body parts without taking into account the relative location of those parts.

So no, I don't think there are any awesome mechanics to salvage there.

lin_fusan
2008-07-22, 12:05 PM
I've played complicated systems like Rolemaster and so I really didn't feel that FATAL provided anything new or innovative.

What killed me was the author's continual reassurance that his system reflected reality in everything from character generation and adventuring.

It was nearly a decade ago that I read the rules, but I felt it was a little ironic because if the game truly simulated reality, you should roll randomly to determine gender, social class, and other factors, and thus probably end up as a "inferior" woman with no money and rickets (and possibly raped as a child).

Great, now I feel dirty... :smallfrown:

The Demented One
2008-07-22, 12:52 PM
Im going to buy this sucker and read it through. Someone had a review online and they had what seemed like a valid point.

If you stop bitching about how the game alows sex then you might notice that the math is very sound and detailed and allows you to generate chances of virtualy anything occuring.

He rated the game fairly high.

So, rather than hate on it without any experiance like some sort of brain-dead media zombie, im gonna try to find it real cheap and give it a read-through. Heavy math isnt my thing, but i can understand it if i need to. Im doing this for the people!

The game's problem isn't that it has hard math or allows sex. It's that it manages to be misogynistic, racist, and anti-semitic, while having ridiculously clunky and inelegant mechanics. It's a game that literally has no virtues.

Frosty
2008-07-22, 01:47 PM
I'm doubting if any game can really be this bad. Does anyone have a copy of the core rules I can borrow?

Jayabalard
2008-07-22, 02:33 PM
The game's problem isn't that it has hard math or allows sex. It's that it manages to be misogynistic, racist, and anti-semitic, while having ridiculously clunky and inelegant mechanics. It's a game that literally has no virtues.Unless you like clunky inelegant mechancs (some people do) and can either enjoy the misogynistic, racism and anti-semitism (which some people do) or ignore it (which lots of people can do).

Just because that describes a vanishingly smalll group of people doesn't mean that noone is going to enjoy the game.

Oslecamo
2008-07-22, 02:50 PM

The game's problem isn't that it has hard math or allows sex. It's that it manages to be misogynistic, racist, and anti-semitic, while having ridiculously clunky and inelegant mechanics. It's a game that literally has no virtues.

Sooo, murder, mass destruction, stealing, lying, plundering and terrorrism are all right, but racism, misogynistic and anti semitism aren't?

Tengu_temp
2008-07-22, 02:51 PM
Unless you like clunky inelegant mechancs (some people do) and can either enjoy the misogynistic, racism and anti-semitism (which some people do) or ignore it (which lots of people can do).

Just because that describes a vanishingly smalll group of people doesn't mean that noone is going to enjoy the game.

Some people enjoy riding down a stairs' splintery railing butt-naked into a tub filled with spirits, too.

Sooo, murder, mass destruction, stealing, lying, plundering and terrorrism are all right

Show me an non-horrible RPG that propagates these "values". FATAL propagates racism and sexism.

Jayabalard
2008-07-22, 03:36 PM
Some people enjoy riding down a stairs' splintery railing butt-naked into a tub filled with spirits, too.Probably, but it seems likely to me that more people would enjoy playing FATAL

Show me an non-horrible RPG that propagates these "values". FATAL propagates racism and sexism.I'm pretty sure that he's referring to D&D.

Swordguy
2008-07-22, 03:39 PM
Show me an non-horrible RPG that propagates these "values". FATAL propagates racism and sexism.

murder, mass destruction, stealing, lying, plundering and terrorrism are all right

Any RPG that enables you to play a "Robin Hood" style character as a protagonist propagates those behaviours.

Murder: Killing guardsmen
Mass Destruction: acts of arson against barracks and similar
Stealing: ...from the rich to give to the poor
Lying: "Are you Robin Hood?" "No." "All right then, carry on."
Plundering: same as stealing - unless you mean plundering of the buttocks, which, admittedly, is only really detailed in FATAL and the BoEF.
Terrorism: Armed defiance against the state while not in the uniform of a recognized state

All of these occur in the written stories, and all but the "Mass Destruction" occur even in the sanitized Errol Flynn depiction.

Not gonna defend FATAL, but that's a pretty poorly-thought-out argument. Most every RPG character commits crimes for a living. The fact that the laws they break are inherently unjust doesn't matter - they're criminals. Attack FATAL for crappy mechanics, woman-hating, racism, and an unhealthy fascination with sex and rape for ANY RPG - those are all fair game. But these?

Also, are you Tengu's alt? I thought that having second accounts on these boards wasn't a legal thing...

EDIT: Never mind - didn't see your sig.

The Demented One
2008-07-22, 03:42 PM
Sooo, murder, mass destruction, stealing, lying, plundering and terrorrism are all right, but racism, misogynistic and anti semitism aren't?
Thing is...theoretically, the designers and players of D&D aren't real-life murderers, thieves, or terrorists. However, no one designs a game in which women are referenced almost exclusively in the context of being whores or rape victims for the players, or which has items like armor of, and I quote, "nigrous nincompoopery" or "jewy jewbacca" whose effects mimic offensive racial stereotypes, without being a real-life misogynist and racist.

Oslecamo
2008-07-22, 04:01 PM
Thing is...theoretically, the designers and players of D&D aren't real-life murderers, thieves, or terrorists. However, no one designs a game in which women are referenced almost exclusively in the context of being whores or rape victims for the players, or which has items like armor of, and I quote, "nigrous nincompoopery" or "jewy jewbacca" whose effects mimic offensive racial stereotypes, without being a real-life misogynist and racist.

Prove it. If I can make a game about killing people and design classes to kill my own inocent kind, whitout being a hitman, why can't I design a game about being racist whitout being racist myself?

There are people out there who aparently think that playing as a demon/vermin/zombie/(insert something really evil and rotten here) is quite interesting.

So, one would only expect that there would be people out there wanting to play a racist/sexist character.

Or are you saying that the GTA designers are all horrible criminals? Or the guys who made that game called manhunt?

Or even better, WH40K? The chaos and Dark Eldar are all about raping and torturing and doing horrible stuff to others and themselves. Dark Eldar score extra points for capturing their enemies alive and torture them later, and they can chop off heads on the middle of combat and stick them on lances to improve their moral. Are the guys who designed WH40k sick bastards because of this?

I'm not defending FATAL, I'm just saying that there are a lot of people with all kind of fantasies out there. Those people know those fantasies are wrong, and don't want them to happen in reality, but they can't resist about dreaming about them, and playing/making games with them.

Heck, I could say that the 3.X ranger class is all about being racist. Pick another race. Hate it with all your guts. Exterminate it at all costs. No matter what. Sounds pretty racist to me.

H. Zee
2008-07-22, 04:12 PM
I'm not defending FATAL.

Sure sounds like it.

Listen. If someone, for some unfathomable reason, really really wanted to role-play a racist, sexist character, they could do so perfectly well in DnD using pure role-playing.

The reason FATAL is horrible is because it makes it very hard or even impossible not to be racist and sexist. In DnD, you can at least choose not to mass-murder, lie, etc, for example if playing a paladin (one with genuine morals, not a Miko clone). The choice is always there.

2008-07-22, 04:16 PM
I'm not defending FATAL, I'm just saying that there are a lot of people with all kind of fantasies out there. Those people know those fantasies are wrong, and don't want them to happen in reality, but they can't resist about dreaming about them, and playing/making games with them.Then there is something wrong with those people. Are they animals who cannot control themselves? How about they see a shrink?

Destro_Yersul
2008-07-22, 04:18 PM
Nah, the guys who designed 40k may be bastards, but only because they designed something made of more awesome than the world should reasonably contain. :smalltongue:

And then Ciaphas Cain was invented, and the awesome factor reached a level than cannot be measured by mortal means. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I'd say that if you're trying to design a game you want people to buy, you should make it fun first and add the crimes against nature as an afterthought. They might even make it more fun if you do it well. Look at D&D. The most popular tabletop RPG since ever, and it's basically just killing various things and making off with their loot. So why did it sell? Because it was FUN. FATAL, from what I've read of it, isn't.

Jayabalard
2008-07-22, 04:37 PM
Sure sounds like it.Not really. He's attacking someone's attack on FATAL, since that attack of FATAL is flawed. That doesn't say anything about his opinion of FATAL, just that a particular line of argument is poorly thought out. You don't have to be a fan of FATAL to shoot holes in poor arguments for being poor arguments.

Listen. If someone, for some unfathomable reason, really really wanted to role-play a racist, sexist character, they could do so perfectly well in DnD using pure role-playing. If you want to play a D&D character of any class, you could do it perfectly well in free-form-gaming using pure roleplaying. Some people like to have mechanics for such things.

The reason FATAL is horrible is because it makes it very hard or even impossible not to be racist and sexist. In DnD, you can at least choose not to mass-murder, lie, etc, for example if playing a paladin (one with genuine morals, not a Miko clone). The choice is always there.You can make a FATAL character not be racist or sexist just as easily as you can make a D&D character not be a mass murderer. I'm pretty sure that it's about as simple saying "my character treats all people equally, regardless of race or gender"

Then there is something wrong with those people. Are they animals who cannot control themselves? How about they see a shrink?There's a certain segment of society that would say the same thing about anyone who play's D&D. They don't see any difference between someone who plays FATAL and someone who plays D&D.

I see nothing wrong with those people; they manage to live out their fantasies without hurting anyone, just like D&D players do. Living out weird fantasies in a game doesn't mean that the person who plays them wants them to happen in real life any more than Debbie is really going to cast mind bondage on her father.

2008-07-22, 04:42 PM
If you fantasize about rape, fantasize about you yourself doing it, and have to play a game to stop yourself from raping someone in real life then guess what? You are crazy, insane, and should not be amongst normal society, period.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-22, 04:53 PM
If you fantasize about rape, fantasize about you yourself doing it, and have to play a game to stop yourself from raping someone in real life then guess what? You are crazy, insane, and should not be amongst normal society, period.

Well I played with toy soldier as a boy and although my memory is a bit vague, I'm sure I fantasised about being a soldier and killing people while playing with them, on top of that I play D&D and I've fantasised about the efficient killing of opponents at least a few times.

So I guess I should turn myself in.

Jayabalard
2008-07-22, 04:57 PM
If you fantasize about rape, fantasize about you yourself doing it, and have to play a game to stop yourself from raping someone in real life then guess what? You are crazy, insane, and should not be amongst normal society, period.Strawman argument. The people that Oslecamo is talking about "know those fantasies are wrong, and don't want them to happen in reality, but they can't resist about dreaming about them, and playing/making games with them." There's nothing in there about turning their dreams or games into reality.

You're insinuating that they would, just like certain people insinuate that people who play D&D would really kill people, worship strange gods and cast spells on people in real life. You're using the exact same logic and reasoning and falling victim to the same fallacies as the extreme anti-D&D nuts.

2008-07-22, 05:09 PM
You are using a word-twisting argument. There is no difference between what I said and your 'counter-point'. These people you describe fantasize about rape, have a psychological need for rape, and use games like FATAL as a substitute for rape.

These people? Are not mentally sane. The more they dream and fantasize about rape, the more liking they are going to commit it. They should not be aloud to walk among us and belong in institutions.

One more thing; we are not talking DnD. We are talking about people who play Fatal to fulfill a very dark desire. Stay on the issue.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-22, 05:19 PM
Armchair psychology, and completely failed on top of that. There are people who, for example, feel sexually attracted to children, yet they know this is wrong and don't go around raping kids. Saying that they should be imprisoned is extremely close-minded.

This "word-twisting argument" is completely accurate.

2008-07-22, 05:22 PM
There is a difference. Do these people who feel attracted to kids but do not molest children play games which simulate the same thing? No, they do not. In fact, it is illegal.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-22, 05:25 PM
There is a difference. Do these people who feel attracted to kids but do not molest children play games which simulate the same thing? No, they do not. In fact, it is illegal.

I'm pretty sure they have games for any situation in Japan, at least. :smallconfused:

Jayabalard
2008-07-22, 05:26 PM
You are using a word-twisting argument. Which word did I twist?

There is no difference between what I said and your 'counter-point'. These people you describe fantasize about rape, have a physiological need for rape, and use games like FATAL as a substitute for rape.Yes, there is a difference; the fact that you can not perceive a difference is why I'm pointing out that you are using the same reasoning as the Anti-D&D extremists who suggest that all people who play Fantasy Roleplaying games, where they kill monsters and cast spells, will try to do it in real life.

I agree with the above, armchair psychology, and extreme close mindedness.

These people? Are not mentally sane. The more they dream and fantasize about rape, the more liking they are going to commit it. They should not be aloud to walk among us and belong in institutions.Using your same logic, anyone who plays D&D is not sane. The more they dream and fantasize about casting spells and killing things and take their stuff the more likely they are to try to do that in real life. They should not be allowed to walk among us because they belong in institutions.

It's flawed logic, whether you are talking about D&D or fatal.

One more thing; we are not talking DnD. We are talking about people who play Fatal to fulfill a very dark desire. Stay on the issue.Actually, the point is that FATAL uses 4d100/2 instead of 2D100, and Zeta Kai wanted to know why.

The off-topic and tangential point is that you are using flawed arguments, and are in fact using exactly the same flawed reasoning and fallacies as the anti-D&D extremists, which is why people are using D&D and toy soldiers as a counter example.

There is a difference. Do these people who feel attracted to kids but do not molest children play games which simulate the same thing? No, they do not. In fact, it is illegal.They can read legal books and watch legal movies that deal with the subject. And I'm pretty sure they can find those games out there.

2008-07-22, 05:32 PM
Did I say anyone who plays FATAL will immediately go out and rape someone after play a session or two? No. What I said was fantasizing and playing rape scenes out will encourages people to commit rape in real life. Even if they do not, they are still insane and should see a shrink like I said.

As for DnD; the game stimulates adventure, not murder. People do not play it because they have to kill someone if they do not. Big difference there, and it is an insult to DnD players everywhere each time you try to use this to defend your argument about people obsessed with rape.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-22, 05:41 PM
Did I say anyone who plays FATAL will immediately go out and rape someone after play a session or two? No. What I said was fantasizing and playing rape scenes out will encourages people to commit rape in real life. Even if they do not, they are still insane and should see a shrink like I said.

As for DnD; the game stimulates adventure, not murder. People do not play it because they have to kill someone if they do not. Big difference there, and it is an insult to DnD players everywhere each time you try to use this to defend your argument about people obsessed with rape.

Umm, no, he's right. There's definitely a disparity with what you're saying. This is the same argument that's used to say things like "Videogames make you violent". Or "DnD makes you a witch". "FATAL makes you a rapist". Or in your case, add in "makes you fantasize about being" where appropriate. Same Diff.

Besides, thinking what you please- so long as it's never done- is not a crime. Who are you, the thought police?

Anyway, I just realized I defended FATAL, so I'm gonna go bleach my entire body. brb.

Turcano
2008-07-22, 05:48 PM
Umm, no, he's right. There's definitely a disparity with what you're saying. This is the same argument that's used to say things like "Videogames make you violent". Or "DnD makes you a witch". "FATAL makes you a rapist". Or in your case, add in "makes you fantasize about being" where appropriate. Same Diff.

True. However, I submit that, while D&D attracts more than its fair share of sexually frustrated social rejects, FATAL seems to be explicitly marketed towards that demographic.

Destro_Yersul
2008-07-22, 05:54 PM
And here I was thinking FATAL was marketed to masochists.

But yeah, what they said. Just cause you want to do something doesn't mean you're crazy and need to be locked away, so long as you don't actually do it. Say, for instance, that I think that blowing things up is cool and I'd very much like to blow a few cars up or something. So long as I don't actually blow anything up because that would be vandalism, destruction of property, disturbing the peace and probably a whole slew of other infractions, does that mean I ought to see a shrink so as I don't spontaneously start to blow things up?

Jayabalard
2008-07-22, 05:56 PM
Anyway, I just realized I defended FATAL, so I'm gonna go bleach my entire body. brb.No no no... you're not defending FATAL. You're just striking a blow against gross over-generalizations and the thought police

Just because we dislike FATAL, and would never be interested in playing it ourselves does not make it ok to demonize the people who do enjoy it.

2008-07-22, 06:00 PM
Dear God...

If so many people are going to be this defensive about people who fantasize about rape and say it is perfectly okay I have now officially lost hope in humanity.

Destro_Yersul
2008-07-22, 06:03 PM
What, just now?

Yeah, I don't have a problem with thinking about stuff. I'm not the thought police. If they start acting on their thoughts though, then I got a problem with it.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-22, 06:04 PM
So there is tyranny, murder, actual rape, intimidation and I don't know what for kind of nasty business happening on this planet and this caused you to loose faith in humanity?

I can't feel sorry about that.

Oslecamo
2008-07-22, 06:06 PM
Ok, I've just looked at some reviews of FATAL, and here's my veredict.

The problem isn't the game being sexist or racist or covering any sensible topic.

The problem is that the game covers those affairs in horrible and senseless ways. It depicts a twisted world where the most censorable things can happen. Not only about gender or race, but pretty much anything.

For example, the Dark Eldar from Warhammer 40k are a race wich spend their whole life raping, killing and torturing others beings. They don't want care anything else but feel the most exotic pains and pleasures. It's pretty twisted. The game rules allow you to chop off your enemy heads and stick them in sharp sticks to improve your moral. But the authors aproach it in a sensible way.

FATAL does not. It's a random assortment of the darkest fantasies of history, and the final result is way worst than the sum of the parts. FATAL fails because it simply acumulates bad stuff over bad stuff.

However, there is a market for that kind of stuff.

FATAL is the RPG created from and for the darker side of the net. There are people who like that kind of stuff out there. They hide their identity, and they probably live normal lifes when away from their computers, but they enjoy these kind of things.

Don't pretend you never heard of those places. 4/chan. Girltube. They're out there. It was only expectable that someone would try to create a paper RPG based on that.

Yes, they have somewhat twisted minds, but they aren't more criminals than the guys who download oficial stuff whitout paying from the net or that play war games.

To each their own. Some people like imagining they are spilling the brains of sentient creatures or cuting the throat of some unaware guard. Others like, well, what FATAL does.

And just like playing D&D for years didn't make me go out there try to hack living beings with a pointy metal stick, people playing fatal won't go out there trying to rape whatever they see.

It's called distinguing fantasy from reality. Everybody was suposed to learn that at around 6 years old.

fleet
2008-07-22, 06:12 PM
uhm, not to interfere with reasoned debate or anything, but you all do realize, fatal was built as a deliberate attempt to insult gaming in general? It's as much a parody of all systems as a system.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-22, 06:15 PM
uhm, not to interfere with reasoned debate or anything, but you all do realize, fatal was built as a deliberate attempt to insult gaming in general? It's as much a parody of all systems as a system.
Really? can you prove it? or is it just your justified hope because you can't stand to imagine otherwise?

Tengu_temp
2008-07-22, 06:55 PM
Dear God...

If so many people are going to be this defensive about people who fantasize about rape and say it is perfectly okay I have now officially lost hope in humanity.

As long as they don't put these fantasies in action, it is fine. Go and lose hope in humanity, I couldn't care less - it's not your business what turns people on, and neither is it mine, even if I personally don't agree with it.

Really? can you prove it? or is it just your justified hope because you can't stand to imagine otherwise?

I'd like to see the proof too. Of course, even if FATAL is a joke, it's still pretty tasteless.

Sholos
2008-07-22, 07:30 PM
People have the right to hold whatever fantasies they wish. Fantasies aren't illegal. To say that people who play FATAL are the type that have these fantasies and should be locked up is to say that anyone who plays D&D or GTA is also deranged. D&D because those people have fantasies about killing sentient beings and taking their property. Or stealing stuff. Or casting spells. Take your pick. Heck, some people even play Evil campaigns. :smalleek:

What about GTA? In that game, you can kill anyone you see, blow up cars and helicopters, steal said cars and helicopters, and cause general mayhem. Should players of GTA be institutionalized?

sonofzeal
2008-07-22, 07:53 PM
My two cents

F.A.T.A.L. is horribly offensive, but I could imagine a group of people with really warped senses of humour enjoying it in harmless ways. The game includes a lot of really horrible material, but you could concievably play off most of it for laughs. From what I've heard most of it is pretty ridiculous, and a group with full consciousness of that fact could concievably have some fun. I mean, I'm the type of person who's amused by goatse/tubgirl/etc, and while FATAL goes a few big steps beyond what I'd be willing to play in a group, I don't see why that couldn't work for some people, on a parody level.

That said, if you're playing it to get turned on and/or provide an outlet so you don't act it out in real life, there's something seriously wrong and you need immediate help. And, yeah, I have my serious concerns about the folks who made it.

elliott20
2008-07-22, 08:02 PM
the problem is that FATAL even as just bad comedy is not fun either. The mechanics, like it or not, is just far too clunky and far too random to be anything playable. I mean, just flip through the book and you'll find a million tables stacked on top of tables, each building off of one another but at the same time allow itself to dwindle in minutiae.

Even if you can strip it of all of it's offensive content, the game itself is still about as fun to play as balancing your check book.

H. Zee
2008-07-23, 01:05 AM
Oslecamo, I apologize to you for what I said earlier about you defending FATAL, because you just put in your post exactly what I was very ham-fistedly trying to say.

What I sort of meant was, FATAL is so clearly marketed to the demographic which wanted to roleplay rape and be sexist and racist and stuff, no-one who plays it seriously will ever do anything other than that. I just put it in a very bad way, probably due to being very tired.

Arbitrarity
2008-07-23, 01:26 AM
I think the argument against Kelly seems a bit misguided. He isn't arguing playing FATAL makes you a rapist, etc.
Instead, he is arguing that if you have an obsession with the topic, and use the RPG as a substitute, you have problems.

Comparing to anti-D&D arguments, this is not like "D&D makes you evil!".
This is closer to "If you have strong urges to axe-murder people, and try to deal with these feelings by playing a frenzied berserker with a greataxe, you have problems"
Tautology: "You have problems, and use a game to try and smooth over those problems" implies "You have problems".
This doesn't imply everyone who plays such a game has such issues, either. Either "You have problems" or "Plays game" being false falsifies the initial statement, rendering the implication moot.

Unless, of course, I misunderstood him, in which case I stand against the thought police, grammar nazis, politically correct police (fire all censor beams!), etc.

Cheesegear
2008-07-23, 02:39 AM
I'll have to weigh in.

Any fantasy setting (that is, Not Real Life. Not 'swords & sorcery' per se) allows rape, misogyny, racism and the like. I can already think of a few of my Chaotic Evil end of the spectrum characters who have done just that (though not the rape). Killing children was part of the character. Not that I have ever had thoughts about doing so.

Just in these settings, it's on a much smaller scale.

I - as a DM - have regularly had points in my homebrew setting where females are in the lower class of society (and vice versa). And, of course, there is the eponymous argument towards killing Orcs. Why? Because they're orcs. At one point, IIRC (probably not, it might've been a different system), D&D had produced rules for STDs and the like, implying that yes, there indeed can be sex in the game. How mature you are deciding to implement these rules is entirely up to the player.
In one of my campaigns, two of my players were IC married, and they did all the things that marital couples did.

The problem with F.A.T.A.L. is that it deals out the rules so specifically that it is hard not to be disgusted with it. Not to mention the gender qualifiers that the author uses. It comes off as some sort of strange fantasy because of some of the rules (i.e; Muscular men are more attractive) come off as well, childish.

I'm wondering what you "Games make you evil." crowd think of players who enjoy Shadowrun?

And now I should probably point out the original topic of this thread was Bell Curves and the OP specifically said that they didn't want this kind of debate to take place.

Bayar
2008-07-23, 06:50 AM
Or are you saying that the GTA designers are all horrible criminals? Or the guys who made that game called manhunt?

Rockstar done them both (and both kickass).

On topic: I remember the spell result charts. It was something in the lines of: roll a 2d1000 and then roll a 1d2 to see that result is possible to come...

Jayabalard
2008-07-23, 07:29 AM
Unless, of course, I misunderstood him, in which case I stand against the thought police, grammar nazis, politically correct police (fire all censor beams!), etc.His opening statement was criticizing people who fantasize about things without acting on them; he seems to be implying that people who fantasize about such will inevitably act on those fantasies.

Oslecamo: Those people know those fantasies are wrong, and don't want them to happen in reality, but they can't resist about dreaming about them, and playing/making games with them.
Kelley: Then there is something wrong with those people. Are they animals who cannot control themselves? How about they see a shrink?

He has not conceded that it's ok if people fantasize about it or play a game about it as long as they don't actually act on it. Quite the contrary, the fact the so "so many people are going to be this defensive about people who fantasize about rape and say it is perfectly okay I have now officially lost hope in humanity."

If he was just making a point about how bad it is for people to actually act on such impulses, I'd agree completely, but he's taken it a step further, and is demonizing people who just fantasize about things that he finds repugnant.

And now I should probably point out the original topic of this thread was Bell Curves and the OP specifically said that they didn't want this kind of debate to take place.It seems pretty much inevitable, any time FATAL is brought up some people have to start in with what a horrible depraved game it is. Since we had answered the OP and pretty much exhausted the possibilities of the bell curve discussion, the tangential discussion doesn't really hurt anything.

Yahzi
2008-07-23, 09:55 PM
I suspect you don't realize that is a common erotic fantasy for women. Most women actually have no problem making a distinction between fantasy and reality, and are quite happy to read romance novels where the heroes do all sorts of things they would never want their husbands to do.

Try not being quite so judgmental about people's thoughts. There's plenty enough bad actions to be worry about for the time being.

2008-07-23, 11:12 PM
I think the argument against Kelly seems a bit misguided. He isn't arguing playing FATAL makes you a rapist, etc.
Instead, he is arguing that if you have an obsession with the topic, and use the RPG as a substitute, you have problems.

Comparing to anti-D&D arguments, this is not like "D&D makes you evil!".
This is closer to "If you have strong urges to axe-murder people, and try to deal with these feelings by playing a frenzied berserker with a greataxe, you have problems"
Tautology: "You have problems, and use a game to try and smooth over those problems" implies "You have problems".This is precisely what I was saying, thank you. At least one person understood what I was getting at.
This doesn't imply everyone who plays such a game has such issues, either. Either "You have problems" or "Plays game" being false falsifies the initial statement, rendering the implication moot.I guess there was one thing wrong with what I was saying; not everyone who plays FATAL does have this problem. I apologize. However, when you consider what little this game has to offer it -may- be a sign someone does.

And no, I do not think people should be judged by their thoughts - but state of mind is another thing.

And I've beat this issues to death as it is so this will be my last post in this thread.

-AK

Roland St. Jude
2008-07-24, 12:36 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay a question about why one would use d100 to generate stats is one thing, but this has (as a FATAL threads do) now crossed over into topics that are not appropriate on this board.