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Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 01:47 PM
Another funny quirk I've noticed is the Dilettante Half-Elf ability. There's no fluff to justify this, but if you make a character who is a power from another class, you're going to have to justify it somehow.

For most things, this isn't so hard - you did a little training with a Fighter/Wizard/Warlord/Rogue/etc. and picked up some trick. But what about Warlocks and Divine Classes? Both of those imply some sort of connection with a greater power, yet you lack even the connection of a multiclassed character.

Currently, I'm looking at a Half-Elf Swashbuckler (Rogue) who, because of Charisma synergies, decided to pick up Bolstering Strike from the Paladin List. To justify it, I had the Swashbuckler become so superstitious about his luck that he entered a minor devotion to the God of Luck (homebrew). So along the way he underwent a minor ritual to gain the God's blessings and he wears a holy symbol of the god. For RP, he'll swear while gripping the symbol and, before particularly sticky situations, he'll give a small prayer to the God and kiss the symbol.

So I was able to take a racial trait and turn it into an entertaining part of the character's backstory. I think this is neat, and I'm curious if anyone else has stumbled upon this situation, and how they dealt with it.

It's storytime everyone! :smallbiggrin:

Learnedguy
2008-07-10, 02:00 PM
I made a warlord who technically was meant to study and become a wizard in a battle wizarding school. Unfortunately his skills at the arcane are limited at best. Luck is though that he's a bit of a genius at the theoretical warfare part of the education, and what he lacked as a wizard he made up for as a tactical commander:smallwink:

Technically not dilettante, as he was a human who was multiclassing, but it was still easy justification for my character to know how to cast spells and progress as a wizard. It was also a big part of his personality, as his failure as a wizard affected his whole life philosophy and motivation to go on adventures:smallbiggrin:

(I made a post about him a few months ago I think. His name was Johan von FitzLuria)

Starsinger
2008-07-10, 02:03 PM
My half-elf warlock took scorching burst for the minion poppings. I didn't justify it at all. My warlock casts spells, it's just another spell in the arsenal. Sometimes you don't need justification.

Isomenes
2008-07-10, 02:05 PM
There's always the notion of being mysteriously and inexplicably "chosen." I like this option as it demands relatively little work on the player's end, AND gives the DM a possible plot hook.

Myshlaevsky
2008-07-10, 02:08 PM
My warlord took Righteous Brand as his dilettante power. Given that he was already a semi-feral, fey-kidnapped worshipper of The Raven Queen, I didn't feel the need to justify it with extra fluff, but it fitted pretty nicely.

Has anyone refluffed the power, rather than the character, to make it seem more appropriate?

Jayabalard
2008-07-10, 02:31 PM
There's no fluff to justify this, but if you make a character who is a power from another class, you're going to have to justify it somehow.Don't get so caught up on the "I'm picking a paladin ability so I need paladin type fluff to back it up" bit. There's nothing wrong with re-fluffing the ability a bit so that it fits your character rather than doing the reverse, unless your GM is a real stickler for such things.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 06:03 PM
Don't get so caught up on the "I'm picking a paladin ability so I need paladin type fluff to back it up" bit. There's nothing wrong with re-fluffing the ability a bit so that it fits your character rather than doing the reverse, unless your GM is a real stickler for such things.

But it's fun to do, and it helps to explain where the Half-Elf gets his spare power from. After all, he is supposed to have picked it up from somewhere - that's what a dilettante is.

Plus, I dislike merely making bundles-of-stats. If my wizard is trained in armor while none of the other wizards are, there's got to be a good reason for it. Same for why my Half-Elf Warlord happens to have a power normally associated with Fey Pact Warlocks.

I see Starsinger's point (Warlocks, particularly Infernal Ones, have lots of fire) but it'd be kind of weird for that same Warlock to start shooting radiant energy, which is usually associated with Divine users. You can just ignore it, but I'd say you're missing a valuable opportunity for making a more interesting character background.

JaxGaret
2008-07-10, 06:08 PM
But it's fun to do, and it helps to explain where the Half-Elf gets his spare power from. After all, he is supposed to have picked it up from somewhere - that's what a dilettante is.

Plus, I dislike merely making bundles-of-stats. If my wizard is trained in armor while none of the other wizards are, there's got to be a good reason for it. Same for why my Half-Elf Warlord happens to have a power normally associated with Fey Pact Warlocks.

I see Starsinger's point (Warlocks, particularly Infernal Ones, have lots of fire) but it'd be kind of weird for that same Warlock to start shooting radiant energy, which is usually associated with Divine users. You can just ignore it, but I'd say you're missing a valuable opportunity for making a more interesting character background.

I think both methods are just fine - what works better for one person may not for another.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 06:10 PM
I think both methods are just fine - what works for one person won't work for the next.

Very true. I mean, you don't need to care about fluff at all and just play a tactical wargame too.

:smallsigh: I've just never understood people who play D&D and don't like figuring out how their character got to 1st level. Nothing wrong with them, I know, but I literally cannot understand the mindset.

JaxGaret
2008-07-10, 06:12 PM
Very true. I mean, you don't need to care about fluff at all and just play a tactical wargame too.

:smallsigh: I've just never understood people who play D&D and don't like figuring out how their character got to 1st level. Nothing wrong with them, I know, but I literally cannot understand the mindset.

See, you're making the mistake of assuming that reflavoring means not caring. What if the player doesn't want the power to be picked up from somewhere else? What if it works perfectly with the picture they have in their mind of what they want their character to be?

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-10, 06:14 PM
I made a Half-Elf Wizard who took Commander's Strike because he likes telling other people what to do.

TheEmerged
2008-07-10, 06:17 PM
Speaking for myself, it's been easy enough. There's both a mechanical explanation and a cliched RPG explanation.

Machanically? Humans get a bonus power from within their class. Dilettante is just the half-elf version of this; their bonus power happens to come from another class.

The cliche is the obvious "Momma was an <insert here> and Dad was an <insert here> and I learned <dilettante choice> from <the other parent>."

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 06:25 PM
See, you're making the mistake of assuming that reflavoring means not caring. What if the player doesn't want the power to be picked up from somewhere else? What if it works perfectly with the picture they have in their mind of what they want their character to be?

True... but I suppose the actual mechanical differences implies a difference in fluff. Humans are really devoted to their class - they choose their ability boost, get an extra at-will, and get training in an additional class skill. Eladrin are different - they take a wide view of the world, and are focused on learned new skills rather than being devoted to their given class. This is why Eladrin Education has no bar to what extra skill they get training in.

Half-Elves though, are Dilettantes. They borrow from both parent races, and even from another class. They don't focus enough on that second class to multiclass, but they are able to pull off an occasional power that is cake for true devotees of a class.

That fluff just fits so well with the power names, the comparison between classes, etc. that I find it hard to think of Dilettante in any other way. But then again, I also take the concept of Class very seriously (I was always a little uncomfortable with 3e's rampant multiclassing).

Again, this is just me, but how do you justify these mechanical differences?

JaxGaret
2008-07-10, 06:45 PM
I also take the concept of Class very seriously (I was always a little uncomfortable with 3e's rampant multiclassing).

Ah, okay. Holding that viewpoint will taint reflavoring for you.

I personally don't care if you use the class straight from the book, or completely reflavor it to your tastes. Whatever works for you.


Again, this is just me, but how do you justify these mechanical differences?

Half-Elves pick up a power from somewhere, but that somewhere doesn't have to be training from someone else.

For the example of the Half-Elf Rogue who took Bolstering Strike with Dilettante, Bolstering Strike is simply a Charisma based attack that grants the attacker some HP based on their Wisdom score; this could be reflavored in many, many ways.

It doesn't need to be "Bolstering Strike, the Paladin power". It could be "Ha Ha!, Jack the Swashbuckling Rogue's power" that he developed himself, tricking his opponent a bit and thereby getting a short respite from the fight, to regain some vigor.

Starsinger
2008-07-10, 06:56 PM
I see Starsinger's point (Warlocks, particularly Infernal Ones, have lots of fire) but it'd be kind of weird for that same Warlock to start shooting radiant energy, which is usually associated with Divine users. You can just ignore it, but I'd say you're missing a valuable opportunity for making a more interesting character background.

I also see Starsinger's point, and what a fine point it is! :smalltongue: Star pact warlocks have radiant damage. Why can't my laser beam from Cleric dilettante be just a laser beam?

Now, a martial character picking up another power, let's say Scorching burst. Why that's a small black powder grenade. Eldritch blast? That could be a magical talisman that shoots energy, it could be a small curse you picked up from a wandering gypsy. Not every use of dilettante has to be "I learned this from a member of X class." And by holding on to that view, you're limiting yourself.

JaxGaret
2008-07-10, 08:11 PM
I actually really like the idea of flavoring my Starpact Warlock's Radiant powers as being ancient beams of concentrated light from faraway stars (perhaps from a solar flare or some such phenomenon), and they are just now reaching their target, millennia after origination.

Jayabalard
2008-07-10, 08:45 PM
Plus, I dislike merely making bundles-of-stats. If my wizard is trained in armor while none of the other wizards are, there's got to be a good reason for it. Same for why my Half-Elf Warlord happens to have a power normally associated with Fey Pact Warlocks.I dislike that as well; that's not what I'm suggesting.

Sure, you should have a good reason for being trained in armor use, but that doesn't mean you have to add something strained and far fetched to tie yourself to another class. Classes exist entirely in the meta-game, so from a purely roleplaying perspective, it doesn't really matter what class you're getting the ability from.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 09:19 PM
I dislike that as well; that's not what I'm suggesting.

Sure, you should have a good reason for being trained in armor use, but that doesn't mean you have to add something strained and far fetched to tie yourself to another class. Classes exist entirely in the meta-game, so from a purely roleplaying perspective, it doesn't really matter what class you're getting the ability from.

Yeah, here's where we disagree.

Now, this is because I started out with 2e where multiclassing was silly at best, and game-destroying at worse. So most people (in my games, anyhow) were single-class characters, and their class was a major part of their life. Serious warriors were all Fighters, major clergy were Clerics, and bandits were Rogues. Classes, in my mind, represented a specific "career path" if you will, with the special skills and powers that come along with that elite training.

It was how the world worked. People who wanted magical healing would go to people trained as Clerics, they hired Fighters to kill things with swords, and Wizards enchanted stuff and cast fireballs. It's like you'd go to merchants to buy stuff, barkeeps for ale, and wenches for... well, you know.

0th Level NPCs were, therefore, deeply confusing for me.

So, by my thinking, the power sets you see tied to classes are part of those classes. You see someone cast a fireball, and you know they have training in wizardry, smacking people with radiant swords goes to Paladins, and Clerics are always chargin' their lazors. Merely reflavoring, say, Flame Burst to be a type of Warlock Power would confuse the heck out of wizards, since they'd assume that anyone casting one of their spells must have some sort of wizardly training. Same thing with a Fighter doing a bow trick - onlookers would assume he had some ranger training.

Yes, this is just personal choice, but considering how mechanically important the class system is to D&D, it seems weird for the general populace to have no idea how it works (well, if they'd be familiar with the classes in the first place).

Ralfarius
2008-07-10, 10:31 PM
Sure, you should have a good reason for being trained in armor use, but that doesn't mean you have to add something strained and far fetched to tie yourself to another class. Classes exist entirely in the meta-game, so from a purely roleplaying perspective, it doesn't really matter what class you're getting the ability from.
I'm totally with Jayabalard on this one. My fighter could be a regimental soldier turned mercenary, highly disciplined and with lots of training. He could also be some backwater farmboy who was just really big and swung stuff around as hard as he could, picking up a few dirty tricks from the fights he's survived. They'd play way differently, in terms of personality and tactic, but they'd both be fighters.

So, what if that half-elf fighter can toss out with a fiery explosion once in a while? Maybe he's got an engineering bent to him, and spends a lot of his downtime tinkering and putting together blackpowder grenades. I'm a big fan of the power system in 4e because it gives you the part most important to the dice - the numbers - and really leaves the RP aspect of it up to you.

I'd much rather have the actual fluff of powers and classes be left more to interpretation, because it gives that sort of freedom to really develop your character as a person, rather than a selection of abilities. It has that sort of Mutants and Masterminds bent to it, and a good number of people seem to have an appreciation for that game.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 10:56 PM
I guess the problem with the grenade is that it would still be an Encounter power. Fluff-wise, I'd have more trouble explaining why a grenade can only be used once an Encounter (as opposed to using as many as you have around) instead of a spell (because spells are non-physical, and you can argue that you need some time to recollect your inner powers before you use it again).

That works for martial powers too, BTW. It takes a certain amount of focus to be able to execute one of those difficult maneuvers, and in the heat of battle you'll only be able to get one off. Dailies are a bit more difficult, except you'd have to say that you can really only pull those off once, 'cause they're so strenuous or something.

But grenades? They're just sitting there, and you're just throwing them like a rock. Why can't you keep chucking them all day?

Kurald Galain
2008-07-11, 03:47 AM
But grenades? They're just sitting there, and you're just throwing them like a rock. Why can't you keep chucking them all day?

Heh. There's other powers that are really funny if you think about them. For instance, the wise, wise ranger can only give advice once per encounter. "Yeah, that was a good tip. Now we won't listen to you for the next ten minutes". :smalltongue:

Thrawn183
2008-07-11, 06:47 AM
You can't throw a grenade more than once per encounter because the enemies would be smart enough to throw the second one back at you?

Sometimes "can't" and "won't" functionally mean the same thing. :smallbiggrin:

Project_Mayhem
2008-07-20, 11:06 AM
You can't throw a grenade more than once per encounter because the enemies would be smart enough to throw the second one back at you?

Or because having more than one primed and ready at one go is an unacceptable risk? Or something?

Fluff is easy