Em/immigration advise

[InaVegt]

So, due to recent events, I decided my plan to leave the Netherlands needs to be sped up. As in, I want to leave the country as soon as possible, and never come back. A total cut-off from family is to be expected, but is considered a bonus. In fact, I'm considering not telling my family (or anybody, really) until I'm standing on the airport, beyond check-in, and make a phone call to inform them I'm gone.

I have a view requirements that need to be met, however. And, I'd need advise on how to meet those requirements.

1. I'd need to be able to follow a proper education, due to the way stuff works, the Dutch government will lend me a load of money (About 16000 USD a year for tuition, and a slightly smaller amount (about one third of which is a gift) for free spending), so, money is only likely going to be an issue for expensive colleges. I also have a, from as far as I can judge, internationally well regarded secondary education, which I did at a pretty high quality. (From what I've heard, had I gotten similar results on an American college, it would've been magna *** laude)

2. It would need to be a fairly liberal place, as the circumstances I spoke about earlier have something to do with conservative views.

3. It can't be too sunny, my skin can't take sun well, In fact, the Netherlands is too sunny for my skin already.

4. People need to be able to speak English or Dutch, as their native language. My skills with other languages are just too poor, while I have no doubt I'd adapt quickly, it's just too much of a hassle.

So, advise please?

[Player_Zero]

In fact, I'm considering not telling my family (or anybody, really) until I'm standing on the airport, beyond check-in, and make a phone call to inform them I'm gone.

Is this such a great idea?

...I mean, I don't know your circumstances or whatnot, but is that really what you wanna' do?

[InaVegt]

Is this such a great idea?

...I mean, I don't know your circumstances or whatnot, but is that really what you wanna' do?

I have no intention of keeping on touch with my family/friends. And I'm certain my family would try to stop me.

If they really want to keep in touch, they can send a private investigator after me or something, not my problem.

[Player_Zero]

Is there noone in your family that you might miss or might miss you?

It's your decision in the end, naturally, I just hope you don't come to regret it.

...According to wikipedia, the only countries which speak Dutch natively are Belgium, the Netherlands, Aruba and Suriname.

Also according to wikipedia English is spoken as an official language in these countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_English_is_an_official_lan guage).

As I only really know anything about England I would say that England is a fairly liberal country, not sunny at all and has a good education system, however I have no idea about the immigration regulations.

I would ask you to think carefully about such a decision though.

[InaVegt]

Is there noone in your family that you might miss or might miss you?
My family consists of close minded pigheads.

It's your decision in the end, naturally, I just hope you don't come to regret it.
If I decide I really want to, I have their phone numbers.

...According to wikipedia, the only countries which speak Dutch natively are Belgium, the Netherlands, Aruba and Suriname.
Dutch was never a real option.

Also according to wikipedia English is spoken as an official language in these countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_English_is_an_official_lan guage).

As I only really know anything about England I would say that England is a fairly liberal country, not sunny at all and has a good education system, however I have no idea about the immigration regulations.
Sounds yummy, a tad too close to here, perhaps.

I would ask you to think carefully about such a decision though.
I have made this decision several years ago, I just decided to speed things up.

[Reinboom]

Given your requirements, I would suggest towards Canada.
So we can blame it for more.

Also, always ensure that - if you are cut off - that you have some way to eat. Eating became my biggest issue when I did the "I'm going 1,800 miles away from home! Cya!" thing.
For the university you get to, make sure they have a student plan for you to get food from tuition, or something, anything to ensure that you can get food in some possible way. I make a big deal of this, because, I had to resort to soup kitchens, personally.

I really don't have much advice beyond that though.

[Crow]

Would it be too invasive to ask if you need suggestions for a non-extradition treaty country?

[InaVegt]

Would it be too invasive to ask if you need suggestions for a non-extradition treaty country?

I've done nothing illegal, as far as I'm aware, so, nope.

[Crow]

I've done nothing illegal, as far as I'm aware, so, nope.

I'm tainted by my profession, so I just assume otherwise =) Sorry to imply anything.

I'll second Canada.

[InaVegt]

I'm tainted by my profession, so I just assume otherwise =) Sorry to imply anything.

I'll second Canada.

Well, I could certainly see where you were coming from. So, no offense taken.

[potatocubed]

I'd recommend Canada, too - their immigration procedure is pretty straightforward and they're looking for skilled people at the moment (skilled people and business consultants, for some unknown reason). You get bonus points if you can speak French, so you might want to spend a few weeks picking up some basic French if you really want to get in.

[Lord Herman]

I'm not sure how liberal Canada really is. I've heard they're actually quite conservative by European standards. Of course, if you want to be sure, you should ask a Canadian.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Well, Vancouver is colloquially known as Amsterdam North so you might feel right at home here :biggrin: But it's for an entirely different reason *cough* weed *cough*. On a serious note, I would recommend Vancouver (Canada) and Seattle (US) as more liberal places. Vancouver has lots of hippy/liberal artsy/regular artsy/bohemian people.

Montreal probably isn't an option for you - people aren't always friendly if you speak English to them (or basically if you're not speaking French 24/7), Quebec city is even worse in this respect. Ottawa is pretty conservative and Toronto... Well as a Vancouverite I feel obliged to dissuade you from even considering it :amused: I also feel obliged to point out that Maple Leafs suck and haven't won the Stanley cup for longer than Canucks have been around.

Calgary and Edmonton - there's pretty much nothing to do.

If you want you can also look at smaller universities like Waterloo or Wilfrid Laurier (they are both located in a small college town not far from Toronto).

PS: just curious... what about Australia? I know they aren't as liberal as Canadians, but I would consider it as an option.

[Quincunx]

Ixnay on the Anadacay when you already have freedom of movement and resettlement throughout the Schengen areas. A swath from Ireland through Germany, with the possible linguistic exception of France, is open to you without any of this visa malarkey.

It's too late to have a 'clean' break. First, you announced yourself here. Second, you aren't planning to cut off all of your internet contacts as well. Third, crazy stalker exes aren't just for the "boyfriend" category any more. Fourth, and most important, I believe you're still under the age of legal adulthood; if you are a minor, anyone else's concern very much becomes your problem as law enforcement can be called to look for you.

[Rawhide]

I can't really say much, but Australia suddenly became a lot more... understanding and accepting, recently.

[InaVegt]

Ixnay on the Anadacay when you already have freedom of movement and resettlement throughout the Schengen areas. A swath from Ireland through Germany, with the possible linguistic exception of France, is open to you without any of this visa malarkey.And except for England, I'd be required to learn a new language.


It's too late to have a 'clean' break. First, you announced yourself here. Second, you aren't planning to cut off all of your internet contacts as well.I have always made it a point to keep internet and RL apart, nobody in RL knows the monikers I go by on the interweebs. The computer I'll be leaving behind will experience not just one, but several hard formats.

Third, crazy stalker exes aren't just for the "boyfriend" category any more.While it has nothing to do with exes, there is a reason I want to leave as fast as possible.

Fourth, and most important, I believe you're still under the age of legal adulthood; if you are a minor, anyone else's concern very much becomes your problem as law enforcement can be called to look for you.Last time I checked, I was a legal adult, now, that has only been the case for a couple of months, but still.

@Don Julio and everybody else: Thanks for the suggestions.

Edit: About Australia, as far as I've heard, that falls under the 'too sunny' category.

[Quincunx]

Ireland speaks English also. I was going on the advice of another Netherlands resident, but upon reflection she may have had a working knowledge of German. If you're above the age of majority, that clears away a lot of forced repatriation, but your name would linger in the lists of questionable international movement for awhile (not quite as long as when a crazy ex puts his mind to it, but still). I am having trouble reconciling staying in contact with the Dutch government for a stipend with utter un-traceability and have no knowledge of how to change name here or anywhere in the E.U.

[Tom_Violence]

You should be able to move around the EU easily enough without having to worry about visas and whatnot. Or, at the very least, they should be a lot easier to get hold of than if you were going outside Europe. And as for the language barrier, that really just depends on how much effort you want to put into moving. I'm currently in the process of relocating to Germany, and about a month ago I didn't speak a word of the language. Intensive courses can get you quite far quite quickly if you're really determined to get to a certain place.


(skilled people and business consultants, for some unknown reason)

Makes sense - if you've got a lot of fresh skilled people you need someone to tell you what to do with them. :smallwink:

[Dallas-Dakota]

This idea has been lingering on my own mind as well. But I was atleast going to wait for me to shrug of the title of Minor so that I could have way more legal freedom and such.


I'd recommend Canada, too - their immigration procedure is pretty straightforward and they're looking for skilled people at the moment (skilled people and business consultants, for some unknown reason). You get bonus points if you can speak French, so you might want to spend a few weeks picking up some basic French if you really want to get in.
Canada huh....

Well, maybe I"l follow your footsteps in a few years, around 5 of them I think....

[Paladin29]

Recently Spain has becoming more and more liberal, we are friendly and kind people, however my country is too sunny and our english sucks usually. I think your better options are England and Canada (I hear that Vancouver is great!).

[Rawhide]

Edit: About Australia, as far as I've heard, that falls under the 'too sunny' category.

Australia is very big. We even get snow down south!

Heh, on a more serious note, you could consider the southern stares or the very southern island/state Tasmania. It is far less sunny down there.

[Lord Herman]

I'd suggest Ireland. Galway in particular. It's a very friendly town with the lowest crime rate on the planet. It has a university, and there are lots of nice pubs.

v, :smallbiggrin:

[Rawhide]

I'd suggest Ireland. Galway in particular. It's a very friendly town with the lowest crime rate on the planet. It has a university, and there are lots of nice pubs.

Yes... pubs (http://goldenpages.ie/search/Ireland/sober_people.html)...

[InaVegt]

Yes... pubs (http://goldenpages.ie/search/Ireland/sober_people.html)...

I don't know why, but that literally made my laugh out loud.

[_Zoot_]

Um.... i was going to say Australia but if you dont like the sun then i don't think you would like it here much....

What about New Zealand?

It isn't very sunny in Tasmania from my experiance.... but i haven't been there alot

[puppyavenger]

I'll third Canada, though I'm a bit biased from, having lived here y whole life with the economist as my only international media, As a [person from Halifax] I'll have to say no Toronto too.

[Eldpollard]

With you being from The Netherlands England might be a wise bet. Seeing as we're both in the EU it would make immigration a lot lot easier for you.

[alexeduardo]

I recommend notamerica, unless you want to assaulted and kicked by some F:smallfurious:ing ICE agent.
then again, you're white...

[Dallas-Dakota]

With you being from The Netherlands England might be a wise bet. Seeing as we're both in the EU it would make immigration a lot lot easier for you.
Take note please that she has said that she wants it to be far away. And thus denied England for that.... I think......

Hmm, New Zealand....

[sktarq]

Canda: First off a warning. It often is dang cold there. As in wearing-8-layers-including-parkas-down-doodads-4-layers-of-pants-and-still-shivering cold. That said there are some very nice places. I'd llook at three areas to match your criterion. The North shore of the Great lakes that speak English. Southern Ontario with Toronto, Thunder bay etc. This area will have both good and bad spots for you but well hold a gem or three. The maritimes-The far Eastern portion of Canada. I'd look at Halifax and parts of NB. With similar issues to S. Onatrio-some towns will be more accepting than others. Then I'd look at Vancouver. Several people have mentioned it already and I'd certainly recomend looking into it. Plus it is an area where having a non-North American background could be worked to your advantage. Vancouver is holding the next winter olympics in 2010. If you figure out where the speed skating is going to be held it would probably be easyier for a dutch speaker to get a job even.

Oz/NZ: The Mainland of Australia is probably too sunny for you but a quick check of Hobart may pan out depending on what sorts of legal issues there are in comparison. The same goes for New Zealand, espacially Christchurch.

Europe: I figure you'd want to get farther from family than this.

USA: Firstly the US can be a pain to get into ATM. Student and working visas are both backlogged and can take quite a while, plus if you come as a student you can't work at all, even during the summers. That said several areas may interest you.
At the top of the list I'd put the Northern Pacific Coast. from San Fransisco to Seatle. SF is famous for it's fog and being rather chilly-ask Twain so it may just work for your weather guidlines and it is probably the most liberal big city in the nation. There are nice little towns all the way up the coast that may suite your fancy and Seattle is a blast too-also not very sunny. They had something like 100 days of Rain in a row a couple of years ago so if you get Seasonal Affective Disorder then look elsewhere but it soulds like it could be your thing. Plus it is just a quick trip to Vancouver.
Second region I'd recomend is New England plus NYC. You said you're looking for uni's. Univercity towns in new England lean pretty liberal on average and have many good schools, state ones included. Boston would probably be great for you. Lots of young people there.
Finaly I'd look at Chicago.

[StickMan]

Well lets see by European standards (and mine) the United States is just about the most conservative western nation on the planet. However we do have some liberal areas New York or California are good. I live in Ohio and if you live in a city most are liberal. Also good point for Ohio is only the summer is really sunny nice cold long lasting winters. If you issue has anything to do with your banner tag, things are getting a lot more open about that in the US. Of course we still have some people that are very close minded as well.

On the major plus side for the US are colleges do cost a lot of money but really are some of the best in the world, my college has people from all over the world and I go to a small branch campus.

As for other nations England is great.

I would not go for Australia as a report I just read suggested that due to climate change Australia is going to turned from being mostly a waste land to a total wasteland in like 10-20 years. (Sorry Rawhide)

[Rawhide]

I would not go for Austria as a report I just read suggested that due to climate change Austria is going to turned from being mostly a waste land to a total wasteland in like 10-20 years. (Sorry Rawhide)

http://users.on.net/~rawhide/kangaroo.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4813976.stm)

[Deepblue706]

Wait, Austria or Australia? :smallbiggrin:

[StickMan]

Tried to look up the news story/report I read but all I found when I did a search was a bunch of stuff about an apology from the Pope to Australia. I even narrowed the search and all I still got was news stories about the apology from the Pope about the sex abuse scandal.


Wait, Austria or Australia? :smallbiggrin:

Australia my bad. Silly me losing a al in the name of a nation. Fixed above post, don't know how I managed that one.

[LCR]

Um, you're looking for a country more liberal than the Netherlands? No offense, but that might be hard to come by. Especially outside of Europe.
I wouldn't advise on moving to the US, not only because it really is just very conservative, but also because of their harsh immigration policy (everytime I visit, I feel like a criminal at the airport ...). I think Canada's pretty much the same, but then I've never been there personally.
What do you think about Iceland? I know, you would eventually have to learn a new language, but most of them should speak English just fine , they have good educational facilities (as far as I know) and it is a very, very remote place.
The same thing can be said about most Scandinavian countries.

[SilverSheriff]

So, due to recent events, I decided my plan to leave the Netherlands needs to be sped up. As in, I want to leave the country as soon as possible, and never come back. A total cut-off from family is to be expected, but is considered a bonus.


Anyway, I'd second Australia, anywhere in Australia really. there is no "too sunny" I live in Brisbane, Queensland (the "Sunshine State") and I've got nothing more than pale skin, unless you are doing some heavy sun-baking (which nobody with half a brain does) it shouldn't be too sunny, yeah I know it will be a little bright when you get over here, thats just because your so used to the weather back in the Netherlands.


...the Dutch government will lend me a load of money (About 16000 USD a year for tuition, and a slightly smaller amount (about one third of which is a gift) for free spending)...

I could send you some links for Schools/Universities as I am in the middle of looking myself. Housing is a bit expensive, you'd still need to be in a job to live.


I would not go for Australia as a report I just read suggested that due to climate change Australia is going to turned from being mostly a waste land to a total wasteland in like 10-20 years. (Sorry Rawhide)

Source? I'd like to read up on that, also if we can get some of the desalinization plants up and running (mostly the fault of ex-prime minister John Howard.) we'd have enough water for everyone on this "Wasteland". :furious:

[StickMan]

(everytime I visit, I feel like a criminal at the airport ...).

Hey hey now we all feel like criminals when we go through the airport.

But yea your if you actually want to be come a citizen in the US then you have to learn a horrid amount of information about the U.S. that most citizens do not even know. In the past I know you've had to learn all the presidents names in order. I can't even do that and I'm a freaking historian training to be a history teacher. However student visa is not so hard to come by from what I've been told.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Vancouver is rainy. Very rainy. It is, however, very warm. As in wear a light jacket and a t-shirt in January warm. Although it does snow once in a while (but never lasts for more than a few days... it just becomes rain again).

Boston and well.... most of the East coast outside of Florida and little university towns I wouldn't recommend if you're looking for anything remotely liberal. There's a common stereotype and I found it true when I was in New Jersey and Philly - west coasters put fun, friends and family first, career second. East coasters put career first, career second, career third and there's very little room left for fun. This of course also makes people much more serious.

IMO: Vancouver, Seattle, SF or San Diego if you want North America, although as people mentioned, US isn't very friendly to immigrants (unlike Canada or Australia). Immigration to Canada is much easier.

[xPANCAKEx]

{Scrubbed} here are some suggestions:

*england (especially brighton - about as 'liberal' as it gets, but only slightly less expensive than london, although far less hassle)
*denmark (english is pretty widely spoken there, so you could get by until you learn danish)
*canada (land of awesome),
*northwest usa

and only pretentious goths don't like the sun - you need sunlight for vitamin D intake (which affects your body's use of calcium)


so what in your life is so bad that you need to escape the country? {Scrubbed}, your friends can't exactly be 'friends' if you've not consulted them on this. Why not just stay in the netherlands and get a place of your own? You can cut off contact with your family all the same if they're that bad. The reason im so sceptical is you've kept this all very vague

[Om]

Well seeing as emigration is once again becoming a favourite pastime in Ireland, I can tell you that the top two destinations at the moment are Canada and Australia. Now I don't know much about how 'liberal' the latter is (beyond Priscilla Queen of the Desert anyway) but apparently Australia is going through an economic boom at the moment

Of course if you're still in education then I strongly advise you to stick within the EU where, as a citizen of the Union, education should be a lot cheaper. In fact in Ireland we have free(-ish) universities... but then why would you want to leave NL for here?

[Serpentine]

On Australia: Like any place, people's attitudes vary. I think, overall, though, that you'll probably be right just about anywhere - especially, but not only, Sydney or another fairly big city or in a university community/town. You'd probably want to stay away from (sorry Rawhide :smallwink:) Queensland. Gold Coast and Brisbane might be okay, but... well, politics again.
Regarding too-much-sun, well, we do have a lot, but... well, the place I live is called "New England", and all the towns are named after Scottish ones. I think that should give you a good idea of what it's like. Canberra's like a much bigger Armidale (which is in New England), Melbourne's notorious for its nasty weather, and Tasmania's on the way to Antarctica.
I know my university (University of New England) has a lot of international students, very big on 'em. I'm sure others do too.
If it's citizenship you want, then Aus could be a bit of a bother. We've recently had a "citizenship test" installed, and it doesn't look as though it's gonna get taken away anytime soon. Things could be improving, but we've had a decade-odd of border closing to get through.

I think New Zealand is a reasonably generally liberal sort of a place, very pretty, with England-like, I think, weather kinda.