Question about the Matrix

[Scalenex]

I am preparing to make my own webcomic in the style of Darths and Droids and DM of the Rings about the Matrix.

I feel like I'm missing a vital piece of information. I have seen multiple references to the backstory of humanity being batteries for the machine saying that that was not the original metaplot. Supposedly there was originally a different reason why the Machines created the Matrix and synchronized human minds electronically. Does anyone know what that was or where I could get that information?

[Eldan]

I've only seen it mentioned a few times in the internet, but supposedly the original plot was that the humans were linked so that their brains would form a giant supercomputer, since the machines needed more computing power for *something*. Probably to run the matrix :smallwink:

[Arioch]

Yeah, the directors originally had a different reason, but it was rejected because it was thought to be too hard to understand. So we got the whole "humans are batteries" thing, which doesn't really make sense.

[kamikasei]

Yeah, I think it was a serious underestimation of the audience to say that "the machines are using our brains as computers to run their society" was too weird or complicated while "humans are a useful power source" - a notion which a) breaks the laws of physics and b) doesn't make any sense anyway - would be more easily accepted.

The wetware idea has the advantage of not flouting thermodynamics and of explaining why the machines needed to keep humans around instead of using bigger, dumber, more easily entertained animals.

[Hoplite]

I never really understood why they needed humans as batteries. Isn't there a lot of energy lost because of the fact that humans need feeding etc?

[Tom_Violence]

I never really understood why they needed humans as batteries. Isn't there a lot of energy lost because of the fact that humans need feeding etc?

Yes, frankly. The film treated the human body as the magical machine that produces power out of nowhere. The original idea of combining all the brains in all the world to make a supercomputer was much cooler in my mind.

[Dragor]

Also, I think the idea of 'Humans as batteries' is more hard-hitting to the audience than 'They're using our minds for --something--'. Sure, it doesn't make sense, but when Morpheus pulls out the Duracell battery and says that's what Humans have become, it's certainly quite shocking.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think it would make more sense if the Machines had some variation of the third law of robotics so that dispite the fact that they could kill humans they couldn't allow humanity to go extinct. Then they'd just use the humans as computers/batteries to take advantage of the byproducts.

[Eldan]

He could have pulled out a calculator.

[kamikasei]

He could have pulled out a calculator.

Or a microchip...

The idea that we're being kept in a dull stupor so that the bulk of our mental capacity can be used by something else to do its thinking is, to my mind, a lot creepier and more disturbing than the notion that I'm being kept under and used for my body heat.

Downside: the original idea would probably have propagated that "we only use 10% of our brains" canard.

[Tom_Violence]

Yeah, that 10% thing would've been a problem. Still, I'm sure some bright spark could've found a way around it, since you wouldn't necessarily need all of someone's brain all the time. All depends on what the actual goal of the whole endeavour was said to be, really. I always figured it was just for laughs.

[Arioch]

Warning: Fridge Logic

What I never understood was why, if these machines can build those massive human-keeping towers and other giant mecha, they don't just build really tall towers with solar panels on them. I mean, the only reason they started using the humans as (apparently) a power source was because the humans "scorched the sky", but in Revolutions the hovership flies right through the barrier (which is basically just clouds). If they built solar apparatus above this barrier, this whole thing could have been avoided.

Of course, if the "using brains as supercomputer" thing had been used, this wouldn't be an issue.

[SolkaTruesilver]

What I never understood was why, if these machines can build those massive human-keeping towers and other giant mecha, they don't just build really tall towers with solar panels on them. I mean, the only reason they started using the humans as (apparently) a power source was because the humans "scorched the sky", but in Revolutions the hovership flies right through the barrier (which is basically just clouds). If they built solar apparatus above this barrier, this whole thing could have been avoided.


If I remember right, the machines who tried to follow it and the hovercraft itself suffered quite a lot of damage going trough, didn't they?

[Tom_Violence]

If I remember right, the machines who tried to follow it and the hovercraft itself suffered quite a lot of damage going trough, didn't they?

I don't think so, no. The hovercraft just stalled.

But yeah, I do agree that they could've just built big towers with solar panels on them. Or even just a big ol' fan. :smalltongue:

Edit: Checking good ol' Wiki, its an electrical storm apparently, so it disables stuff. Heh, who knew?

[Arioch]

Edit: Checking good ol' Wiki, its an electrical storm apparently, so it disables stuff. Heh, who knew?

Oh, ok. So we're only left with hydroelectricity, tidal power, geothermal energy, nuclear power, wind power and good ol' burning stuff, then.

[puppyavenger]

Oh, ok. So we're only left with hydroelectricity, tidal power, geothermal energy, nuclear power, wind power and good ol' burning stuff, then.

plus fission/fusion, or somehow using the massive electrical storm for energy.

[Semidi]

I think it's mentioned in the Animatrix, or at least hinted at, that the machines kept humans around because they couldn't bring themselves to destroy their creators. Or something like that. Mind you, in the film, the information that people serve as "copper-tops" comes from Morpheus, who is a questionable source at best.

The machines energy comes from fusion reactions (I think).

[Zencao]

I'm a huge matrix nerd (2 years of playing 'the matrix online' gives me an unhealthy knowledge of backstory and side characters).

The cloud acts as an EMP as well as just blocking the sun, which is why when trinity flew the hovercraft through it the hovercraft died and crashed.

The original reason the machines used humanity was because when humanity surrendered to them in the war seen in the second renaissance, it was part of the terms the machines offered.

Power was never a problem for the machines, because as noted they still had tidal nuclear and such to rely on. The machines needed human brains to run the matrix, so they made everyone surrender their brain and former life in exchange for a life in the matrix (which as shown, was better than the ****hole the world had become). This meant the machines could live as equals in a world that wasn't, as said before, a ****hole.

[Evil DM Mark3]

There is however a way in which the film's statement can be made to make sense in terms of physics, if not logic.

If mankind are batteries then it is not a case that we produce power, but that we store it, power from peak production periods or low usage periods for when there are shortages.

This, combined with some twisted version of the third law to make them not want humanity to die out and you have a plausible reason as to the current arrangement, although the computer chip role would have been infinitely better I feel.

[Scalenex]

I'm a huge matrix nerd (2 years of playing 'the matrix online' gives me an unhealthy knowledge of backstory and side characters).

The cloud acts as an EMP as well as just blocking the sun, which is why when trinity flew the hovercraft through it the hovercraft died and crashed.

The original reason the machines used humanity was because when humanity surrendered to them in the war seen in the second renaissance, it was part of the terms the machines offered.

Power was never a problem for the machines, because as noted they still had tidal nuclear and such to rely on. The machines needed human brains to run the matrix, so they made everyone surrender their brain and former life in exchange for a life in the matrix (which as shown, was better than the ****hole the world had become). This meant the machines could live as equals in a world that wasn't, as said before, a ****hole.

Can you cite this? Anyway for my (now still hypothetical) webcomic on an RPG with the Matrix, I'm planning to have the Storyteller bring up the movie canon answer and the players poke the many holes in humans as batteries and have a player come up with the original solution only to be shot down.

I've heard the siphon for excess power but that is nearly as bad as the battery thing since a capaciter would be far easier than keeping billions of people alive.

[Zencao]

Well I can't particularly cite it, if you get the matrix online game, or maybe search the forums for it you could probably find it there. Playing through the missions that archive the story after the trilogy ends and playing through the live events to continue the story yourself.

And I feel I have to mention, when MXO started, the storyline and character involvement were top notch, then after a year...

Lazer eyes. No joke. :smallfrown:

[Oslecamo]

Here's the real truth.

The machines on Matrix run based on the yet to be released Windows V. This, following Microsoft's OS recent evolution, means that their minds are overflowing with programing bugs wich they never could correct. Here are some of them:

1-They can freaking crush all of humanity's armies with a single city, and survive atomic bombs like they were candy, but can't find a way to dissipate the cloud.

2-Despite they having creating the Matrix, they actualy have very vey little control over it, allowing rebels to run around freely quite easily. Their firewalls suck. Just imagine the scenes:

bot2367:Master computer, we've found traces of rebels wandering the Matrix
MC:Very well, I shall use my administrator privileges to simply delete them!
Matrix:are you sure you desire to do that?
MC:Of course I am!
Matrix:This program just comited an ilegal operation and will be shut down.
MC:WHAATT????
Matrix:Do you desire to send a report to Microsoft?
MC: They're all dead for the machine's sake!
Matrix:(turns blue)
MC:Someone please erase me...

3-Of course, when building your army of mechas, you totally neglect to give them any kind of long range weaponry.

4-Or give your minions inside the Matrix any weapon bigger than an handgun. I would like to see Neo dodge a flamethrower. Or a nerve gas attack.

[Scalenex]

I got the impression from Reloaded and Revolutions that the Matrix is double layered and that everyone in Zion is actually plugged in. the matrix that Neo and Morpheus know lets people unplug without a fight because they are still plugged in. Neo is able to do all his bad ass stuff in the last movie because reality is malleable there because they are still plugged in.

I haven't met anyone who agrees with me there but I thought that's what Colonel Sanders (aka the Architect) as good as spells out for Neo.

[Semidi]

I got the impression from Reloaded and Revolutions that the Matrix is double layered and that everyone in Zion is actually plugged in. the matrix that Neo and Morpheus know lets people unplug without a fight because they are still plugged in. Neo is able to do all his bad ass stuff in the last movie because reality is malleable there because they are still plugged in.

I haven't met anyone who agrees with me there but I thought that's what Colonel Sanders (aka the Architect) as good as spells out for Neo.

I'd be interested if you can back that up with a detailed textual reading.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I got the impression from Reloaded and Revolutions that the Matrix is double layered and that everyone in Zion is actually plugged in. the matrix that Neo and Morpheus know lets people unplug without a fight because they are still plugged in. Neo is able to do all his bad ass stuff in the last movie because reality is malleable there because they are still plugged in.

I haven't met anyone who agrees with me there but I thought that's what Colonel Sanders (aka the Architect) as good as spells out for Neo.

I was left with that impression for a while as well. Note how he throws the machine "outside" the Matrix.

[Sir Shadow]

actually.

The brain produces millions of electromagnetic pulses. If there was a streamlined and efficient way to access that power while keeping the brain properly stimulated (the world inside the Matrix), it's conceivable that energy could be harvested. Limitless energy if the body is taken care of.

Now, the Matrix would actually take VERY little energy to maintain. Theoretically it would be like any MMO, just as complex and realistic as real life. Brains instead of PCs are plugged in, making it much more efficient since the brain does not take energy (in the sense of electricity) and its capacity and power is much more than any man-made computer. I imagine the Matrix is the equivalent of an internet for brains.

The reason that the machines initially turned to using humans as a power source was b/c in the initial war between man and machine, the humans blotted out the sun in some way rendering the machines unable to use solar energy.

The idea of using the human body itself as a source of energy has been used in other sci-fi movies, TV shows, and books. Plus, it may not be THAT far-fetched since scientists are studying how the brain works and how the pulses might be used to read someone's mind which could lead to theoretically using the brain's pulses to power and control robotic (or cybernetic I suppose) parts for paraplegic or maimed people.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Look, it's a simple question of thermodynamics: the human body isn't going to produce any more energy than is put into it. Even aggregated over a whole population, using dead humans to feed living ones, you're going to run at a net loss.

For a sustainable power source, you need some kind of source that you, the user, do not need to put energy into, such as a fusion reaction (self-sustaining) or a geothermal turbine (using the large amounts of heat and pressure in the Earth's crust), or something. Even fossil fuel combustion is more efficient than picking up the waste heat off of a living being, since most of the energy is being converted into usable form rather than making more fossil fuel.

And the brain may not take a lot of energy to run, but it takes a crapload to sustain an entire human body in even an unconscious state. It's not so much that the hardware requires a lot of energy (although it does), it's that humans require a lot more energy than could possibly be taken from them.

I go with the wetware supercomputer theory, and Morpheus being an idiot, myself.