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View Full Version : I'm interested in Vow of Poverty. . .



Arros Winhadren
2008-07-11, 05:40 AM
I made up a character that was a straight up Vow of Poverty Human Monk. He seemed pretty good, but I'm not so sure that I want to just go as a monk. I'm looking for something that can do a little more damage. For that reason, I'm thinking maybe I can do something like a Changeling Warshaper with VoP. Any ideas as to how that might work out?

Gorbash
2008-07-11, 06:21 AM
Easy. Just don't be a monk. Be a druid.

Bayar
2008-07-19, 05:08 PM
For a monk, Vow of poverty is a trap. You need magic items that cost $$$ and that kills your vow.

crazedloon
2008-07-19, 05:40 PM
Well if you have access to it I would suggest one of the magic of incarnum classes. I will admit I have never played a VoP incarnum class but it seems natural because the classes abilities replace magic item slots.

Roderick_BR
2008-07-19, 06:03 PM
True. VoP gives you lots of cool stuff, but you are better off by buying magic itens.
If you really want to, see if you can play an unarmored SwordSage from Tome of Battle.

Faithless
2008-07-19, 06:35 PM
For a monk, Vow of poverty is a trap. You need magic items that cost $$$ and that kills your vow.

The VoP replaces magic items. Not kills it.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-19, 07:05 PM
The VoP replaces magic items. Not kills it.

The Vow of Poverty gives a set of fixed bonuses, that are theoretically designed to replace magic items. There's some problems, though:

As a non-caster, there's a lot of abilities you'll need that you normally get from magic items - flight, teleportation, and invisibility being the big three - that you don't get under the Vow of Poverty. For a Full Caster, this isn't quite as big of a deal (most full casters can get flight, teleportation, and invisibility from spells), but as a non-caster, this becomes a fairly serious problem.

RTGoodman
2008-07-19, 11:16 PM
The Vow of Poverty gives a set of fixed bonuses, that are theoretically designed to replace magic items. There's some problems, though:

Also, you don't really get as much as you would if you had strict Wealth by Level. (You can look it up, as I'm sure it's been discussed before.) If your DM gives less gold/wealth than normal you'll get a power boost, but if you get more WBL than you should you'll lag pretty far behind.

Eighth_Seraph
2008-07-19, 11:31 PM
Well, Arros, if you want to make a martial artist-style character that deals decent damage, you could try out the monk redux in my sig, or go for the unarmed swordsage. If you have a wizard backing you up in the party, it would serve as a tentative replacement for flight/invisibility items.

Personally, I just love the image of a VoP martial artist.

AstralFire
2008-07-19, 11:42 PM
VoP Unarmed Swordsage is the best option for melee. With the right maneuvers you can get almost everything you'd otherwise miss.

Cuddly
2008-07-20, 07:37 AM
If you go Warforged druid with racial substitution, you can wildshape into constructs. You'll be a freaking transformer.

Bayar
2008-07-20, 09:18 AM
If you go Warforged druid with racial substitution, you can wildshape into constructs. You'll be a freaking transformer.

I'm curios where did you find this racial substitution exactly? All I found was Metal master which is one of the most CRAPPY druid variants that saw light on God's green Earth.

BardicDuelist
2008-07-20, 09:27 AM
I'm curios where did you find this racial substitution exactly? All I found was Metal master which is one of the most CRAPPY druid variants that saw light on God's green Earth.

Which still makes it better than the entire monk class. zing!

Bayar
2008-07-20, 09:43 AM
Which still makes it better than the entire monk class. zing!

Please, it is basically a fighter with no bonus feats and spellcasting. No Animal companion, no spontaneously casting summon nature's ally, no wildshape.

I prefer to play a monk with negative points at the optimisation department than one of those mistakes of nature.

BardicDuelist
2008-07-20, 08:45 PM
Please, it is basically a fighter with no bonus feats and spellcasting. No Animal companion, no spontaneously casting summon nature's ally, no wildshape.

I prefer to play a monk with negative points at the optimisation department than one of those mistakes of nature.

Well, the spellcasting makes it better than any non-spellcasting class (except possibly ToB, which may as well be casters), but that wasn't my point. I made a joke. I thought the "zing!" would give that away.

nargbop
2008-07-20, 08:55 PM
Druid-->Master of Many Forms-->Warshaper
Play with those three classes, and you can make a formidable fighter who can change fluidly and fight as all sorts of creatures, all while casting buff spells. MoMF is from Complete Adventurer; Warshaper is Complete Warrior. Consider Wonderworker from Book of Exalted Deeds if you want some more Exalted Feats.
NOTE : If I were playing a Vow of Poverty druid, I'd have to ask, why in Elhonna's name would I want to leave my own forest/biome? Why would someone so attached to her own trees and birds and such want to have anything to do with people, indeed enough to do with people to actually say "NO! I don't want anything to do with money!" ? That's a difficult story to make besides "Oh. Evil Wizard. Burned down my chipmunks."

VoP gives lots of fun stuff; the reroll feats are great. I once made a VoP Fortune's Friend with over a dozen rerolls a day.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-20, 09:19 PM
NOTE : If I were playing a Vow of Poverty druid, I'd have to ask, why in Elhonna's name would I want to leave my own forest/biome? Why would someone so attached to her own trees and birds and such want to have anything to do with people, indeed enough to do with people to actually say "NO! I don't want anything to do with money!" ? That's a difficult story to make besides "Oh. Evil Wizard. Burned down my chipmunks."
You're forgetting: The Vow of Poverty (and it's pre-requisite, Sacred Vow) are Exalted feats - which means putting your fellow's interests significantly above your own. The Druid class may be about nature, but the Vow of Poverty is about people.

Chronos
2008-07-21, 06:39 PM
The thing with Vow of Poverty is, it's not supposed to make your character more effective. It's supposed to make your character suck less.

There's plenty of room in epic pseudo-medieval high fantasy fiction for someone who voluntarily forsakes material posessions, so you ought to be able to play such a character in D&D, if you want. The problem is, under the standard rules, such a character would completely, utterly suck. The solution is the Vow of Poverty feat: Giving up items is still a sacrifice, as it should be, but it at least becomes possible to play an ascetic character.

mistformsquirrl
2008-07-21, 06:49 PM
The thing with Vow of Poverty is, it's not supposed to make your character more effective. It's supposed to make your character suck less.

There's plenty of room in epic pseudo-medieval high fantasy fiction for someone who voluntarily forsakes material posessions, so you ought to be able to play such a character in D&D, if you want. The problem is, under the standard rules, such a character would completely, utterly suck. The solution is the Vow of Poverty feat: Giving up items is still a sacrifice, as it should be, but it at least becomes possible to play an ascetic character.

This is exactly my own interpretation.

Its to make a serious RP decision feasible; not to make it choice one would make solely because it gives you power.

Signmaker
2008-07-21, 07:42 PM
This is exactly my own interpretation.

Its to make a serious RP decision feasible; not to make it choice one would make solely because it gives you power.

Imagine, the designers actually thought that people would put roleplay first and decided to help them out a little, but in a way that couldn't be abusable.

I wonder what they were smoking at the time. :smalleek: Should try it more often.

Arros Winhadren
2008-07-21, 07:47 PM
If I just wanted to be powerful, I certainly would not be interested in Vow of Poverty. It's something that I like because I don't have to deal with items, I was just hoping for a way to make it more effective. Anyways, the point of this thread was actually more along the lines of VoP combined with a Changeling Warshaper, not just VoP.

Gorbash
2008-07-24, 09:13 PM
Since we're discussing Vow of Poverty... Can other party members buy, let's say, Tome of Clear Thought for a character with Vow of Poverty?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-07-24, 09:46 PM
From my experience, Soulbow is a great choice for a VoP character, especially with Monk 1 thrown in at the low levels and Zen Archery. That way Wisdom would be your only really important stat, since you'd be adding it to your attack rolls, damage rolls, and AC. You can fire a Mind Arrow with one hand, so you can use them with Two-Weapon fighting, or go Thri-Kreen with Multiweapon Fighting. Use the Lucky property on your Mind Arrows and every initially missed shot will get a reroll.

Chronicled
2008-07-24, 10:46 PM
I'm curios where did you find this racial substitution exactly? All I found was Metal master which is one of the most CRAPPY druid variants that saw light on God's green Earth.

It's not a racial substitution, but a druid variant found in the Cityscape Web Enhancement. Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and scroll down.

monty
2008-07-25, 05:50 PM
Since we're discussing Vow of Poverty... Can other party members buy, let's say, Tome of Clear Thought for a character with Vow of Poverty?

You don't need that. If you have a copy of BoED, look under Tithes and Offerings, page 29. If you donate more than the cost of a spell, you can get it cast by the church. If I read the rules right, you can get a Wish cast for 26530 (or if you can pull it off, a Gate for 6530). Compare that to 27500 to buy a +1 tome, even if you could use it.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-29, 11:14 AM
You don't need that. If you have a copy of BoED, look under Tithes and Offerings, page 29. If you donate more than the cost of a spell, you can get it cast by the church. If I read the rules right, you can get a Wish cast for 26530 (or if you can pull it off, a Gate for 6530). Compare that to 27500 to buy a +1 tome, even if you could use it.

Yeah, but how do you get 27,000 gp when you're expected to immediately donate anything you earn? :smalltongue:

I really advise not taking VoP if you are taking the perspective of 'how do I get around X part of VoP?' Voluntary poverty, or any form of voluntary self denial is a method of obtaining spiritual enlightenment by lessening the influence of the material. Intentionally dreaming up ways to subvert your Vow runs counter to the philosophy required and is metagaming. What a VoP character would be thinking is how to survive with even less than the minimum required by the vow, not how to get more while still being in technical compliance.

AstralFire
2008-07-29, 11:19 AM
I think part of that problem with VoP arises because it feels like it's the only way to keep your character up in power without submitting to Christmas Tree syndrome.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-29, 11:44 AM
True, if you're looking for a way to avoid having to go through and hand pick your equipment then VoP is not the solution you're looking for. It would be nice to have a standard list of powers you're expected to obtain from equipment at a certain level, rather than just a raw gp number.

The problem with compiling that is that such an enumeration would be not fit every character build, and would be invalidated everytime a new "gotta-have" Magic Item is introduced. The best you can do is homebrew to fit your campaign, and be aware of the spells that fullcasters get. Once fullcasters get access to reliable flight for example, then everyone pretty much needs it.

Person_Man
2008-07-29, 11:56 AM
As others have mentioned, VoP gives you a mixed bag of special abilities. They are less valuable then what you could buy with standard wealth by level. And you have limited choices about what you get. Any full caster would work fine, as they don't rely on magic items to be productive. You could also make an argument for the Wildshape Ranger, any ToB class, or any Psionic class.

Griffin131
2008-07-29, 01:09 PM
Yeah, but how do you get 27,000 gp when you're expected to immediately donate anything you earn? :smalltongue:
Earn that much on one outing :) When you come back, give them the 30k or whatever and ask for a small favor.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-29, 04:27 PM
Earn that much on one outing :) When you come back, give them the 30k or whatever and ask for a small favor.

True, but that's stretching the limits of the term 'donation.' If I give you a lot of money for a relatively small service that would make me a generous tipper, but I'm still purchasing a service from you. As well, 30,000 gp is an amount awfully close to what it would cost anyone to buy a wish spell in the first place.

Do you see what I'm saying? A transaction where I give a church 30,000gp, and they give me a complimentary Wish spell is disturbingly like handing a mage 26,620 gp in return for a Wish. In fact, if the church had no in-house magi, they might even hire the same wizard and collect the difference. Either way, you're circumventing your vow because you're using the purchasing power of your 'donation' to get magic sparklies for yourself.

I'm not against being able to control where your donation is spent... if for example, there was an orphanage full of sick children, and your VoP character wanted his donation spent on a new wing of a hospital to treat them, that's totally in line with VoP. If a villian has seen the light and wants to reform but needs the money to begin a new life, that's great that you give him your share of dungeon loots. But when your donations ends up getting magic stuff for you I tend to think of that money as not a donation, but rather a payment of some kind.

Morty
2008-07-29, 04:32 PM
Any full caster would work fine, as they don't rely on magic items to be productive.

Does VoP allow you to have a spellbook? Otherwise a wizard who carries a book worth at least 100 gp, not conting spells in it, would be outright out.

Chronos
2008-07-29, 04:52 PM
Does VoP allow you to have a spellbook?Nope. Technically, it doesn't even allow a holy symbol, though that's usually houseruled away.

lord_khaine
2008-07-29, 05:04 PM
so that leaves Psion as the perfect class for a VoP!

hmm, not that a telepath with VoP, VoP & VoN wouldnt be effective, but i think it would easely get annoying for the rest of the party.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-29, 06:03 PM
so that leaves Psion as the perfect class for a VoP!

hmm, not that a telepath with VoP, VoP & VoN wouldnt be effective, but i think it would easely get annoying for the rest of the party.
Drop the Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, and you're generally going to be fine - those extra two tend to be rather ... annoying, shall we say ... for everyone else in the party. Granted, technically all it requires of the rest of the party is just taking captive anyone who's rendered helpless.

Hmm... how does the Vow of Poverty stack up to Wealth by level?

At, oh, 10th, sticking with Core items; Wealth By Level is 49,000 gp.
Vow of Poverty:
Exalted AC Bonus +7; no ASF or ACP, but if we call it a +3 Chain Shirt, it's worth 9,250 gp; running total: 9,250 gp
Exalted Strike +2 - basically a +2 bonus on whatever you're using as a weapon - valued at 8,000 gp; running total: 17,250 gp
Damage Resistance 5/Magic; about the closest you come in Core is the Invulnerable armor property, which is a +3 equivalent bonus. Drop it on a +1 bit of armor, and it costs 16,000 gp to set up, minimum (if we add it to the chain shirt, it costs a lot more). It is, however, around 80% pointless, what with just about any humanoid opponent at that point being able to penetrate DR/magic trivially, and a significant chunk of the nonhumanoids, too. Still, we're running a total of 33,250 gp so far.
Natural Armor +1: This one is easy - an amulet of natural armor +1 is just a simple 2,000 gp. Running total 35,250
Resistance +1: This one is also easy, +1 Cloak of Resistence. Running total: 36,250.
Ability Score Enhacement +2: Easy, the items for it all follow the same pattern. 4k; running total: 40,250 gp.
Deflection +1: Ring of Protection +1, 2,000 gp. Running total: 42,250
Endure Elements: Boots of the Winterlands, 2,500 gp. Running total: 44,750
Sustenance: This is the effect of a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone (4k), or a bit less than the effect of a Ring of Sustenence (2.5k). Using half the Ioun Stone's price (calling it slotted for the Aescetic, essentially), we've got a pricetag of 2k, so running total: 46,750
Mind Shielding: Ring of Mind Shielding, 8,000 gp. Running total: 54,750 gp.
Aligned attack (good). Eh, we'll ignore it, for now.

Now, that value changes significantly based on some assumptions - 16k of that is from the nearly-worthless Armor of Invulnerability enchantment, and 9k of that is from calling the +7 Exalted AC a bit of basic armor (+4 AC) with a +3 Enhancement - rather than calling it, say, mundane half-plate (600 gp), or a Breastplate (+5 AC, 200 gp) and a Heavy Shield (7 gp wood, 20 gp steel).

If we ignore the Invulerability property, and use the minimum cost for getting the AC from normal armor and shield bonuses, we've got the measurable bits of the Vow of Poverty running at 29,707 gp. The less measurable bits (bonus exalted feats) are a bit harder to value. If we include the Vow of Peace in the Vow of Poverty benefit analysis, the +2 Deflection, +2 Natural Armor, and +2 Exalted bring things up a mite (16k for the change in deflection, 16k for the change in natural armor, a bit of change for the armor difference) bringing the total for Vow of Poverty + Vow of Peace to about 86,000 gp at level 10 (using the lowest-cost-interpretation Vow of Poverty, which ignores the DR/magic, the bonus feats, and treats the Exalted bonus like mundane armor/shield)... if we ignore the other bonus exalted feats, the entry feat cost, and the RP costs.

Mind you, almost nobody would take that particular layout of equipment. Mind Shielding at 8k is only situationally useful; almost nobody picks it up. Ditto for Sustanence. What's painful is the loss of special abilities you'd normally get from items (as a non-caster, anyway); Invisibility (Potion, ring, scroll, wand, whatever), Teleportation (boots, helm, cape of the monteback), and Flight (Boots of Flight, potions of fly, whatever).

For a Full Caster (Sorcerer, Psion, Wilder; sort-of Cleric and Druid, and other full casters) that can get these missing abilities without a problem, this isn't so bad. But the kicker? Most of those classes have spells available which eclipse the bonuses from the Vow of Poverty.

Exalted Strike spends most of it's time behind Greater Magic Fang and Greater Magic Weapon. Misdirection handles most of Mind Shielding. Magic Vestments on decent armor (or Greater Mage Armor) tends to beat out the Exalted AC bonus, and so on. The classes that suffer the least from the Vow of Poverty due to their nature also have the ability to eclipse or equal most of the Vow of Poverty's benefits via spells.

Vow of Poverty as a method by which to not suck too badly while playing a character that isn't decked out like a christmas tree? Not too shabby. Mechanically a good idea? Not usually.

Frosty
2008-07-29, 06:18 PM
Would Vow of Poverty be better if you're allowed to pick what bonuses and abilities you get?

Rei_Jin
2008-07-29, 06:21 PM
Eh, if you want to use VoP, just pick up the feat at the latest possible point in character creation, then buy tomes with your cash before you take it. Now you have a stat boost, AND the bonuses from VoP.

And to be honest, I think VoP is a great thing as it can never be taken from you or sundered by a bad guy. It helps create the ultimate survivalist.



Oh, and in regards to the warforged transformer?

Warforged monk/tattooed monk will do that with the right tattoo. Much simpler build.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-29, 06:29 PM
Eh, if you want to use VoP, just pick up the feat at the latest possible point in character creation, then buy tomes with your cash before you take it. Now you have a stat boost, AND the bonuses from VoP.

The only problem there is if you wanted all those extra Exalted feats. And, of course, working out a reason for your character to take a VoP after earning so much swag (not that it couldn't be done, of course!)

AstralFire
2008-07-29, 06:43 PM
The only problem there is if you wanted all those extra Exalted feats. And, of course, working out a reason for your character to take a VoP after earning so much swag (not that it couldn't be done, of course!)

Off-hand, the only nice exalted feats I can think of worth an early VoP are Touch of Golden Ice (druids/UA), that +wis to attack one, and Nymph's Kiss. Though Stigmata and Nimbus are always fun for RP.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-29, 06:45 PM
What if you just had tatoo/permanent elixirs/undispellable versions of spells found in magic items? Added like +50% to the cost, and then you had the equivalent of a magic item that could never be stolen/traded/removed except by effects that break or steal any magic items, like Disjunction or Soul's Treasure Lost? Would that solve the problem without forcing someone to follow a Vow of Poverty, an otherwise necessary evil? :smallwink:

tyckspoon
2008-07-29, 06:46 PM
The only problem there is if you wanted all those extra Exalted feats. And, of course, working out a reason for your character to take a VoP after earning so much swag (not that it couldn't be done, of course!)

That's ok, most of the Exalted feats suck. And the ones that don't are best taken and used as soon as possible (ex, Nymph's Kiss for the extra skillpoints).. the other major problem is that stat tomes are *really expensive*, so you have to be making a high-level character to take advantage of that particular loophole. It's not too practical until level 14 or so, and that's only if your DM lets you spend all of your wealth on just one or two items..

It's not true that there is no way to remove the VoP benefits, however.. all of the effects (except maybe some of the bonus feats) are (Su.) Which means antimagic effects suck for the VoP character even harder than they do for normal gear-dependent characters; the normal character at least is still wearing masterworked armor and a weapon while AMF'd. The VoP character is using practically nothing. Plus getting yourself de-Exalted by ever performing any kind of evil deed, but that's your own fault. Unless you have a DM who takes glee in forcing Paladins to fall, in which case you shouldn't be playing a Paladin or an even more extreme Exalted Good in that game.

2008-07-29, 06:48 PM
Nope. Technically, it doesn't even allow a holy symbol, though that's usually houseruled away.

That's not actually the case. The limit is on money and the like. A holy symbol could be handmade, inscribed on clothing, a tatoo, etc. Your right though, it still all depends on your DM.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-29, 06:52 PM
The only time you should take VoP is if you are making a level 15+ character who needs more feats and the Chaos Shuffle is allowed.

Take VoP at level 1, get all the exalted bonus feats, and then chaos shuffle them all into things that are useful. At level 20 this can net you an extra 11 feats. An elf with 2 flaws can end up with 17 more feats than a regular build character. Now throw in gestalt and take fighter on one side for another 11 feats.

AstralFire
2008-07-29, 06:53 PM
Chaos Shuffle?

Jack_Simth
2008-07-29, 07:10 PM
That's not actually the case. The limit is on money and the like. A holy symbol could be handmade, inscribed on clothing, a tatoo, etc. Your right though, it still all depends on your DM.
It is and isn't.

You're thinking in terms of a "Holy Symbol" as being a set of markings on some object, with the markings themselves being the important bit, and the object itself being meaningless. However, in the Core books, it's never properly specified that way. There's a specific item "Holy Symbol" that costs a particular amount, and that isn't listed as one of the items that a Vow of Poverty ascetic is permitted to have. If this specific item is required for a particular spell, then the ascetic can't have it, as written.

Alternately, one could argue that if you scribe an object with the symbols needed for it to qualify as a "Holy Symbol", it is now also an object worth the 1 gp, which you're no longer permitted to have, because it's that other object.

As there's a small amount of leeway in interpretation, your DM might decide that you can carve your diety's symbol on a quarterstaff, call that a divine focus, and cast with it. Without such permissions, however, strictly as written, a Holy Symbol is a particular item, which you're not permitted to have with the Vow of Poverty as written.

tyckspoon
2008-07-29, 07:12 PM
Chaos Shuffle?

Two spells: Shun The Dark Chaos and Embrace The Dark Chaos. Effectively allows you to re-assign your feats, including any bonus feats you may have from race or class such as the Elf weapon proficiencies. Doesn't count for class-based proficiencies, such as 'Fighters are proficient with all martial weapons'; it has to be stated explicitly as feats.

AstralFire
2008-07-29, 07:20 PM
Two spells: Shun The Dark Chaos and Embrace The Dark Chaos. Effectively allows you to re-assign your feats, including any bonus feats you may have from race or class such as the Elf weapon proficiencies. Doesn't count for class-based proficiencies, such as 'Fighters are proficient with all martial weapons'; it has to be stated explicitly as feats.

That's disconcertingly broken sounding and I am further disconcerted that I've never even HEARD of these spells before.

Did they come out in one of those "GENERIC DARK SCARY EVIL" books towards the end of 3.5?

Jack_Simth
2008-07-29, 07:30 PM
That's disconcertingly broken sounding and I am further disconcerted that I've never even HEARD of these spells before.

Did they come out in one of those "GENERIC DARK SCARY EVIL" books towards the end of 3.5?
Fiendish Codex I, yes.

It's a 500 xp cost per feat, though (250 xp for Embrace the Dark Chaos, 250 xp for Shun the Dark Chaos). If you're doing it a lot, you want a Thought Bottle.

Oh yeah, and the way it's worded, you can replace your low-level feats, when you could hardly qualify for anything useful, with feats you can only qualify for now - so your 3rd level feat that went to Alertness can now go to, oh, Craft Staff.

AstralFire
2008-07-29, 07:33 PM
Fiendish Codex I, yes.

It's a 500 xp cost loop, though (250 xp for Embrace the Dark Chaos, 250 xp for Shun the Dark Chaos). If you're doing it a lot, you want a Thought Bottle....

Ah. I never pick those up out of habit, so that would explain it.

Demons_eye
2008-07-29, 10:47 PM
I know that if you own stuff you break it but if you are magic....?

Thorosofmyr
2008-07-30, 11:35 AM
One thing my friend did, which I believe was a simple houserule (or found in some arbitrary splatbook, who can keep track?), effectively gave him magic items while he still had VoP.

He was a Taoist Monk awakened Panda, who bound "chakras" to his body. Basically, whenever he donated his money to a worthy cause (which was all the time, due to VoP) he accumulated "glory points". These "glory points" acted as the gp value for any magic item. When he sacrificed enough "glory points" he bound a chakra to his body that performed the same effect as the magic item.

I've got no idea if your DM will go for it, partially because it basically allows you to have VoP, get magic items, and furthermore permenantly prevent your magic items from being taken away (would they still be disjunctioned? no idea).

However, if your DM is of the opinion that monks are completely worthless like the people on these boards do, he may let you go for it.

Frosty
2008-07-30, 11:47 AM
The only time you should take VoP is if you are making a level 15+ character who needs more feats and the Chaos Shuffle is allowed.

Take VoP at level 1, get all the exalted bonus feats, and then chaos shuffle them all into things that are useful. At level 20 this can net you an extra 11 feats. An elf with 2 flaws can end up with 17 more feats than a regular build character. Now throw in gestalt and take fighter on one side for another 11 feats.

DMs would only allow that for monks, sicne they need all the help they can get.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-30, 12:54 PM
DMs would only allow that for monks, sicne they need all the help they can get.

Except the one who is letting me do it with an Incantatrix :D

Demons_eye
2008-07-30, 01:22 PM
Were is Taoist Monk found?

Thorosofmyr
2008-07-30, 02:52 PM
Oh, sorry. It's not a class. My friend was a regular Ph 1 monk, the Taoist part was just part of the character concept.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-31, 11:09 AM
However, if your DM is of the opinion that monks are completely worthless like the people on these boards do, he may let you go for it.

They're not worthless! Monks are great for 'battle spectating.' They can move fast and not get hurt very effectively. If your goal is to have a character who could run around watch your friends do effective damage and make their attack rolls, well you really can't do better than a monk. Except maybe a fullcaster who prepared the appropriate spells to outshine you at your own role, but they do that to everyone. :smalltongue:

quiet1mi
2008-07-31, 01:28 PM
even while battle spectating he can provide +4 ac and +1 ref (cover), +2 to attack rolls (flanking), and an additional +2 to ac or attack rolls through the aid another action... so in essence he is a power multiplier to the beat-stick of the group that can also provide the more fragile members of the party with cover and bonus ac...

The high saves, speed, and maneuverability allows him to increase the power of his allies regardless of enemy interfearence...

Think about it... a +4 to attack and a +4 ac for two people... thats Crazy good!!

Tenadros
2008-07-31, 04:01 PM
Has anyone tried Monk/Kensai with the vop? I refer to the Kensai in complete warrior which allows you to cross class with a monk. It allows bonuses to weapons which can be your natural weapons. Could these bonuses not make up for some of the lack in flexibility of items.

I certainly doubt that it would even the playing field so to speak. BUt it could allow you to tailor some abilities and make up for the inflexibleness that is the flaw of VOP.


I have a lev 1 monk who is trying this. I am doing it strictly for RP reasons and taking the hit as a natural sacrifice of having a fun roleplaying experience. But then I'm not big on the optimising thing. Nothing against it, just not my preference.

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 04:03 PM
Has anyone tried Monk/Kensai with the vop? I refer to the Kensai in complete warrior which allows you to cross class with a monk. It allows bonuses to weapons which can be your natural weapons. Could these bonuses not make up for some of the lack in flexibility of items.

I certainly doubt that it would even the playing field so to speak. BUt it could allow you to tailor some abilities and make up for the inflexibleness that is the flaw of VOP.


I have a lev 1 monk who is trying this. I am doing it strictly for RP reasons and taking the hit as a natural sacrifice of having a fun roleplaying experience. But then I'm not big on the optimising thing. Nothing against it, just not my preference.

Until the Kensai lets you fly or teleport, unfortunately, it doesn't really help much.

dman11235
2008-07-31, 04:12 PM
As a general rule the only characters VoP works with are full casters (big 5, sorcerer, Favored Soul, Wu Jen Spirit Shaman, maybe Shujenga, dread necromancer and beguiler), psions, erudites (btw, they were recently added to the Big 5, thereby making it the Big 6), and Incarnate/Totemist. Possibly Binder, but I don't think so.

The only class that benefits from the feat is the Druid. And maybe the Totemist/Incarnate, though not likely.

Frosty
2008-07-31, 04:18 PM
Until the Kensai lets you fly or teleport, unfortunately, it doesn't really help much.

If you wanna use VoP, always be a race that can fly. Go Raptorans!

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 04:21 PM
If you wanna use VoP, always be a race that can fly. Go Raptorans!

VoP UA Swordsage Raptoran can get by surprisingly well. You pick up a combat teleport, you can fly, Touch of Golden Ice is nice at lower levels.

dyslexicfaser
2008-07-31, 04:47 PM
They're not worthless! Monks are great for 'battle spectating.' They can move fast and not get hurt very effectively. If your goal is to have a character who could run around watch your friends do effective damage and make their attack rolls, well you really can't do better than a monk. Except maybe a fullcaster who prepared the appropriate spells to outshine you at your own role, but they do that to everyone. :smalltongue:

I think we once decided that monks made the best porters and butlers in Core.

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 04:49 PM
I think we once decided that monks made the best porters and butlers in Core.

They also make for the best way to piss off core-only archers.