OOTS #576 - The Discussion Thread

[Rawhide]

Creating threads for all comics released while the forums were switched off.

[Szilard]

I loved that last bit.:smallbiggrin:

[ss49]

So, can Celia zap the Munster while being held?

[pyrefiend]

Poor belkar hasn't gotten any decent stabbing in forever.:smallfrown:

[sleepy]

Is that partially covered red banner featuring a hammer and sickle?

Golems are communists? Or is it mad golem making wizards that are communists? Is the people's equality truely realized in a conglomeration of animated automatons bound to a single disreputable magician? I guess they never tried that.

[Gopher]

Heh. Herman Munster.

Looks like Haley's warning wasn't entirely selfish. I guess Cliffport is pretty bad.

Incidentally, what species are these two? I don't reconize that race.

[happyturtle]

I'm not crazy about the Greysky City story so far, but "I'm kinda in a hurry" earned a giggle. And also we can now give Roy a blue robe and he can get a job as a Xykon impersonator. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html)

[ArmorArmadillo]

I'm strangely disappointed by this current side-arc...I guess I just don't by the babe-in-the-woods act from Celia. She's always been this smart lawyer, how can she all of the sudden not notice a criminal undercity?

[Om]

I'm strangely disappointed by this current side-arc...I guess I just don't by the babe-in-the-woods act from Celia. She's always been this smart lawyer, how can she all of the sudden not notice a criminal undercity?Perhaps the same way she knows nothing else about humans?

Really though I don't care, I'm just delighted to see the pace of the strip pick up after the revelations at the Orcale's

[r23r5]

So, I guess were hoping Haley saves the day now.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Perhaps the same way she knows nothing else about humans?

Really though I don't care, I'm just delighted to see the pace of the strip pick up after the revelations at the Orcale's
She knows nothing about human biology.
As a law student, she seems to know plenty about human laws, which are the issue.


I thought the oracle was a decent point. And I'm glad to see Haley out of the spotlight for a while.

[happyturtle]

I imagine Celia has spent all her time immersed in law books and very little actually encountering the lawless. Remember, her only actual case so far was against Lawful opponents. And also, the outcome was fixed. She has no idea how to deal with Chaos.

[PhallicWarrior]

And I was sure she'd get a clue before things got out of hand, but what do I know?

[T-O-E]

Loved the references to old horror's, especially the Frankenstein flesh golem.

[Pronounceable]

Cart Fairy is an oddly catchy title.

[fractal]

Fortunately for Celia, with his use of contracts and the like, her current opponent does appear to be lawful evil. Perhaps she can do a deal. The fact that he still seems to want to carry out the transaction as agreed upon is a good sign.

The emotional distress thing, though, isn't likely to get her far in Greysky City. And her lightning bolts will only make the flesh golem now grappling her even stronger.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Come on, is Celia realy that dumb/naive/stupid/trusting/ignorant? She makes Elan seem wise.

[rosebud]

It's not a hammer and sickle. Looks like runes of some sort.

Anyhow, this is an unexpected turn of events, including lack of bargaining and Belkar willing to sell Mr. Scruffy. And her not being precise at the time of request. And the items in the cart are just out there. Okay, I didn't think it could ever be this bad and it's surely only going to get worse.

I still liked Celia though.

PS THANKS FOR GETTING THE FORUMS UP RAWHIDE!!!!

[Lupy]

I hope that Haley saves Roy by 600 or the geeks will flip. :smalleek::smalltongue:

[Mythlor]

Yes, Roy's skeleton is now an animated character (LOL). His animated bones will not prevent a resurrection spell when cast, but can cause some hilarity to pull the spell off. The bone golem will have to be destroyed and/or the elemental spirit exorcised from his bones.

The spells used in 2.5e to make a bone golem were stated as animate dead, symbol of fear, binding and wish. Looks like you had to be a 18th level wizard to make one.

[Ascension]

Can you still resurrect an ex-golem? I'm sure Roy will be revived in this case, rules be hanged, but what I want to know is whether or not it's possible by RAW.

EDIT: And I got ninja'd by the answer to my question!

Now I've got a new one... What happens to the earth elemental inside him when he gets rezzed?

[elonin]

I'm wondering if Belkar might become an undead. That would fufil the prophecy. The cart farie comment was so funny.

[Faramir]

Remember, Celia is a law student with very little real world experience outside her books. I loved the last panel where her reaction to a physical threat is threatening to sue though...

Anyone know what the line "Roker shall see one more sunrise" references? It kinda lost me.

[Bitzeralisis]

Convenient lightning.

[Swordlol]

Mmmm....

I'm too lazy to quote this...

Interesting Side-arc to say the least.

[fractal]

Anyone know what the line "Roker shall see one more sunrise" references? It kinda lost me.
According to Wikipedia, he's a weatherman from NYC. I guess Hieronymus Grubwiggler dislikes inaccurate forecasts.

[elonin]

I'm proposing that Celia is a neutral good charactor. The good is easy to establish, being upset by Belkar killing in front of her. From what I remeber she's taken some chaotic actions like letting OOTS use the employee tunnels to bypass a couple of dungeon levels and not owning up to her end of the contract. Remeber that the guy (don't know what it is) said "roy will be up and walking around again". Celia agreed to that and renigged after she found out how. I'm not saying I'd act differently but he did hold up his side of the bargain. She should have asked for more details etc. Frankley her actions don't show her to be particularly lawful or chaotic. Also, while she's led a sheltered life she must have been exposed to chaos being a fae creature (unless i'm mistaken about that).

[silvadel]

Belkar goes from green to black -- that isnt a good sign.

Did the bone golem etc remind anyone else of spock's brain? It would make it easier to move him around as he could under his own power.

Does being animated as a golem have any adverse implications with being raised?

[Aurorax]

Maybe Belkar can use his vomit as a weapon....which will just make him puke even more...

[Ascension]

Did the bone golem etc remind anyone else of spock's brain? It would make it easier to move him around as he could under his own power.

Though I try as hard as I can to forget that Spock's Brain (and indeed much of the third season) ever aired, I see your point.


Does being animated as a golem have any adverse implications with being raised?

I asked the same question... Mythlor says it won't.

[elonin]

The comments about the "spock's brain" episode reminded me of this. If Belkar's mark of justice hadn't gone off I could see him paying for the golem to be able to control it. Just like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html)

[Blaznak]

I enjoyed the "plot advance", but I can do without Celia's "PC" time. I just think she makes a better "NPC" for interaction with the regular cast than holding a spot on her own.
Still, I gotta wonder how Roy's going to act when he finds out he's all, well, golem-y and stuff!
Later

[dragonseth]

I enjoyed the "plot advance", but I can do without Celia's "PC" time. I just think she makes a better "NPC" for interaction with the regular cast than holding a spot on her own.
Still, I gotta wonder how Roy's going to act when he finds out he's all, well, golem-y and stuff!
Later

On that topic, I'll bet Roy is seeing all of this, and probably is realizing just how much smarter Elan seems when compared to Celia right now.

As for the race of those guys, I have no idea. My first thought was Skum, but I don't think that's right.

[Ascension]

On that topic, I'll bet Roy is seeing all of this, and probably is realizing just how much smarter Elan seems when compared to Celia right now.

Actually, Roy isn't watching right now. He got dispelled (or something similar, I don't feel like going back to check semantics) by the Oracle. So he's got no clue that his skeleton is currently golemified.

[Dark Wolf]

He can still look down from the afterlife and watch. The Oracle just told him to go home when he overstayed his welcome.

[rosebud]

She knows nothing about human biologyActually, she got a firsthand lesson (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) in human biology.


Remember, Celia is a law student with very little real world experience outside her books.She lives in a world with adventurers and worked as a guard at a palace, including the period where Xykon took over. Yes, she lacks a lot of experience, but there's a difference between inexperience and being Polyanna. She was clued enough to ditch her cheating boyfriend, after all. If she were really this naive, she'd have believed him. And it's not like lawyers are beings of pure good. So this sequence seems overplayed past the point of unbelievable. We'll get past it, but it does not fit a character who calmly commented, "I don't think he's off the hook at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)." on Belkar being punished.


I enjoyed the "plot advance"If by advance, do you mean "moving things backwards and making me want to join Belkar"? :smallsmile:


I'm proposing that Celia is a neutral good character.Ugh. Alignment debates. *stabs elonin* *stabs again for good measure* Okay, nothing to see here. Move along...


she's taken some chaotic actions like letting OOTS use (...) and not owning up to her end of the contract.Durokan was dead by that point and her payment stopped months ago, so there was no contract.


Remember that the guy ... said "roy will be up and walking around again". Celia agreed to that and renegged after she found out how.They never really agreed, and by giving her a written contract, there is no strong claim of a binding oral contract. Of course, there is no functioning law in this town, so it's a rather moot. But there is no claim of her being chaotic here. Just poor at negotiations, but this sequence is unbelievable for her character anyways. You'd have a better chance arguing that her lying to Haley and heading into town was Chaotic, but the entire alignment debate seems silly anyhow. Especially that as Roy's SO and a paraelemental, she tends on the lawful side.


I'll bet Roy is seeing all of thisMy one and only hope is that Roy might appear and be able to converse. Or I could take it as sheer slapstick and not worry about keeping my stomach from emptying. :smallbiggrin:

[Belkster11]

(first time poster)

Is it just me or does Celia seem like an idiot? When I saw the machine wired to Roy's skeleton, it didn't take me but a few seconds to figure out what was going on.

vSPOILER!!

I think this is going to work in Celia's advantage. Once she recovers from the shock and thinks about it, she'll find that she'll probably be able to get herself out of this with Golem!Roy and the others.

Just how is she going to explaint to Haley though...
^ END SPOILER

[Robz_defheadz]

hmm i wonder if it would be possible for Roy to possess the golem

[Faramir]

According to Wikipedia, he's a weatherman from NYC. I guess Hieronymus Grubwiggler dislikes inaccurate forecasts.

Ah, got it. That's actually pretty funny. Thanks!

[tojo102]

I'm strangely disappointed by this current side-arc...I guess I just don't by the babe-in-the-woods act from Celia. She's always been this smart lawyer, how can she all of the sudden not notice a criminal undercity?

Um, Defense attorneys quite often HAVE to do just that.

[SteveMB]

Actually, Roy isn't watching right now. He got dispelled (or something similar, I don't feel like going back to check semantics) by the Oracle. So he's got no clue that his skeleton is currently golemified.

I can imagine his reaction if/when he does find out. Another example of when you think it can't get any worse and it does....

[Coke_Can64]

Mkay, I'm gonna lump all my Zomgness into one post instead of spread it around 3 threads

(Spoilered for your ability to gloss it over)


THIS. IS. NOT. GOOD.

Roy is a bone golem. I don't think anybody saw this coming. Well, the comics came pretty fast AND the servers were down, so I guess that no-one could talk when #574 & #575 came out.
...
The main character is now a construct. Everbody thought that Belkar would be a construct/rezzed somehow and so forth. The Giant just caught (I think) a whole bunch of us out in one fell swoop.

Belkar is screwed, anybody puking up black vomit is pretty really messed up.

Celia... umm, she might break free, she might cast something...

But she's acting like a lawyer too, that made me smile :smallamused:

We have ourselves a situation which can go in many different directions at once...
(Speculation)

#1 Haley. She'll... do something, yeah. Like jump through the window and rescue Celia... Nah, too obvious.

#2 Celia dukes it out with Mr Grubbwigger. That could be interesting... but who'd want a fight scene at this point?

#3 Belkar. He'd do something random... I guess that "Chaotic Evil" basically sums up what some possibiltites are... ish.

#4 Bone-golemified Roy... Um, if I think right (I don't play D&D so I'm shaky with this) this construct doesn't have free will (So we'd have an astral Roy yelling "WHAT HAVE THEY DONE WITH MY BODY?! :smallfurious: :smalltongue:)... this could get... weird. I know! Roy breaks up wi-... no, that would be epic bad :smalleek:

I admit... I saw the last panel of #575 and thought "Ooh crud..." but this transcends just "Ooh crud..." right now...

There, I cooled down. Bone golems anybody? :smallbiggrin:

[rosebud]

Is it just me or does Celia seem like an idiot?I don't know who the blue slyph is, but that person is an idiot. It does not seem to be the Celia I've seen in the past, though. It only looks like her. This entire sequence strains believability past belief for me. :smallfrown:


(first time poster) ... vSPOILER!!Welcome to the boards, he who has the name of a character soon to die! :smallbiggrin: Anyhow, there are spoiler tags you can use, which is the preferred method. Just add

your text goes heretags between your text, and you're set!


I can imagine his reaction if/when he does find out.Hey, maybe bone golem/fighter Roy is just what OOTS needs to defeat Redcloak and Xykon! Well... it's possible. :smalltongue:


THIS. IS. NOT. GOOD.We've seen worse. Of course, that's when Roy died and the Order of the Sapphire were all killed and the parties were split up and gained more villains just to make things more complicated and annoying. Which is still where we are, except worse.


the servers were down, so I guess that no-one could talk when #574 & #575 came out.It's *nice* now. There's more discussion and less noise! It's manageable and useful for a change.


Belkar is screwed, anybody puking up black vomit is ... messed up.Huh, black vomit (hematemesis/yellow fever) is actually a distinct condition. Cool! I thought it was merely a joke. Apparently he needs hydration and has about a 1:3 chance of dying were this real life.


a situation which can go in many different directionsWow. I thought we were on a one-way railroad. Oh, wait, we're the viewers and not writing, so we are on one. Sit back, grab your popcorn, and puke or laugh as desired! :smallsmile:

[Faltenin]

So... does this mean it's up to Mr Scruffy to save the day? He'll have to take a level in prestige class "LOLcat" first I guess...

If Haley has to call upon friends and family to help, being a reanimated construct after being killed by a lich is a heck of a way to make a first impression on your future in-laws. I should have thought of that myself.

I know about the "last remaining relative" being imprisoned elsewhere, but still...

[Lunaya]

Things do look bleak. Haley has no idea where her companions are and somehow I get the feeling that Belkar won't be getting up this time. :smalleek:

Nice going, Celia! /sarcasm

[David Argall]

I don't know who the blue slyph is, but that person is an idiot. It does not seem to be the Celia I've seen in the past, though. It only looks like her. This entire sequence strains believability past belief for me.
Please refer back to the gnome killing. Celia has never been shown to have street smarts, and has been shown with a quite ivory tower attitude.
That she has walked right into a dangerous situation is quite predictable. Now as a lawyer, she really should have read the contract first, but a lot of us operate on the theory that good advice is what the other guy should have done.


Hey, maybe bone golem/fighter Roy is just what OOTS needs to defeat Redcloak and Xykon! Well... it's possible.
Not very. I can't find bone golem stats, but it should be a nuisance monster for Roy's level, and hardly even noticed as a foe by Xykon. It's a lot more useful than Roy as a pile of bones, but it's still a petty concern.


It's *nice* now. There's more discussion and less noise! It's manageable and useful for a change.
I found the comic horribly inferior as a result of the lack of that noise and idiotic comments. Welcome back.


Huh, black vomit (hematemesis/yellow fever) is actually a distinct condition. Cool! I thought it was merely a joke. Apparently he needs hydration and has about a 1:3 chance of dying were this real life.

His in comic chances may well be 100%, but based on the description of the Mark, the condition itself is non-lethal.
We do have to keep in mind that the difference in color may be caused by a difference in background rather than a difference in Belkar. If the old color blended in or something, the artist may have changed it for a non-story reason.



So... does this mean it's up to Mr Scruffy to save the day? He'll have to take a level in prestige class "LOLcat" first I guess...
Well, it's not an impossible continuation. Haley comes rushing to the rescue and also gets in dire difficulties, and so it is up to the cat... Still, kitty has been pretty much just scenery to date.



hmm i wonder if it would be possible for Roy to possess the golem
Probably not. I don't recall if he tried antimating his bones before, but we are let to assume he tried everything he could think of before giving up, and so the presumption is he did try, and failed, and should fail now too.

[brilliantlight]

Please refer back to the gnome killing. Celia has never been shown to have street smarts, and has been shown with a quite ivory tower attitude.
That she has walked right into a dangerous situation is quite predictable.


Yeah, but we are talking :elan: level of stupidity here. Sheltered or no she has had more then enough clues that Haley was right.

[wumpus]

Could I point out that not only is Celia acting at a roughly Elan-level wisdom level, Elan wouldn't have this problem. First, his knowledge of tropes should clue him onto the point of the electric slab. Second, Elan (and only Elan) has a chance to nail his spot check to see the idiot ball, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall) and hopefully snatch his personal item back (yes, I'm ignoring how far away they are).

[Nerdanel]

Speculating about Mr. Grubwiggle's prestige class:

Does anyone think Hieronymus could be a green star adept and really after Roy's sword so that he could eat it? That would explain his and Giro's interesting coloration and why they would want to do business with Celia even if it meant pretending to misunderstand what she was after so that they could get the sword as a payment.

[Lord Seth]

I'll be blunt and say I haven't enjoyed the last few strips, especially this one. The humor is greatly diminished, the whole thing seems like a pointless sidequest (which is annoying, as I already feel the story may be moving a little slowly), and to be honest I'm already not that big a fan of Celia, and the last few strips have made her look astonishingly stupid (like pre-Took A Level In Badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TookALevelInBadass) Elan), which only makes it worse.

[rosebud]

If Haley has to call upon friends and family to help, being a reanimated construct after being killed by a lich is a heck of a way to make a first impression on your future in-laws.Haley ♥ Elan. Celia ♥ Roy. So, no, not an issue here unless we're talking about Celia's mom.


Please refer back to the gnome killing. Celia has never been shown to have street smartsI don't think she was that ridiculous. Haley was not happy, either. And Celia did do a nice number on Nale and Thog when they were hog tied. :smallsmile:


Still, kitty has been pretty much just scenery to date.Mr. Scruffy was key to fighting Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html). Not to mention settling the feud (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html) between city resistance factions.

[Daen]

So... interesting. Bone golems are immune to most magic and weapons (except magical blunt weapons, I think), yes? What an interesting development, considering that Xykon pretty much just casts spells... :smallbiggrin:

[notanel02]

I have only 6 things to say about the last few strips:
(the last one is from my friends who are too lazy to make a forum account! :smallbiggrin:)





1. WHAT THE....????? OMG!!!!! And other exclemation comments!!!!!!!
how can that Mr.Grubwiggler (or in fact ANYONE?) do that to roy!!??? he's a LAWFUL GOOD guy for Mrs. Mishel Omegod's sake!!! :smallfrown: :smalleek:

2. i still feel sad about what happened to Roy! (that his body is/was a rotting...(what's a nice word for someting dead? let's just say vulture food ok?) :smallfrown:

3. can you think/immagine (just for 1 sec!) that Belkar will mysteriously/amazingly Survive untill AFTER the end of the "in-comic" year? you know... despite the Oracle's prediction? :smallconfused:

4. Celia should have really(i repeat... REALLY!) seen something bad like this coming... i knew that this guy was no good! i had a feeling like that when Celia read the flyer!

5. I just hope that OOTS has a happy ending! If you're reading this Giant, then I BEG of you! PLZ let OOTS have a happy ending!!! :sigh: I HOPE THEY ALL LIVE AMONGST US!

6. NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS,OOTS WILL ALWAYS LIVE AMONGST US!
:roy: :durkon: :elan: :haley: :vaarsuvius: :belkar: :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[chibibar]

wow... This is going to be interesting.

isn't Greysky city is the same city that Haley went to trade during the time when she was with the underground movement?

[Freelance Henchman]

So... interesting. Bone golems are immune to most magic and weapons (except magical blunt weapons, I think), yes? What an interesting development, considering that Xykon pretty much just casts spells... :smallbiggrin:

I thought the same thing, Roy's soul in a bone golem body would seem like a stronger opponent against Xykon than Roy alive.


I get this image of Roy traveling to the Elemental Plane of Earth and finding the elemental that controls the bone golem, then proceeding to bind and gag the elemental and remote-controlling his body for the final match against Xykon in a game of (Un-)Mortal Kombat :smallsmile: Though I hope the Giant comes up with something less lame :smallbiggrin:

[AlexanderRM]

I enjoyed the "plot advance", but I can do without Celia's "PC" time. I just think she makes a better "NPC" for interaction with the regular cast than holding a spot on her own.


You know, if this were supposed to be, like, an actual D&D game with people playing the PCs, I could see Roys' player taking over Celia while he's dead. It would certainly make sense.

[Geno9999]

(still comic related) Why doesn't Roy visit Durkon? He's a cleric, he most likely can see the dead, so WHY THE FREAKIN NOT?

Also, Roy can become a bone golem w/ a soul?
Oh responding to notanel02, the caster isn't a LG, in fact probably LE (he made a document and all) and can do what ever he wants with Roy's cold dead body. Unless there's 3.5 against it, it's legal.

[DBear]

Wow, Celia seems to have taken a flying leap into stupid good. As Miko was lawful stupid, this looks like a running theme for Roy's girlfriends.

And killing off Belkar is like South Park killing off Cartman. He's the straw that stirs the drink.:smallcool:

P.S. Celia needs a smiley.:smalltongue:

[Coke_Can64]

Wow, Celia seems to have taken a flying leap into stupid good. As Miko was lawful stupid, this looks like a running theme for Roy's girlfriends.
Nice one. Though you might get hammered by a bunch of Pro-Miko people, that sums up the case. I wonder who would be Roy's the next girlfriend... Stupid Stupid? :smalltongue:

[Mr._Michael]

So... There's a fight... Chaos, confusion, vomit, blood, lawsuits... and Roy looking down sees the PIN code.

It... Could... WORK!!!! :biggrin:

[Werewindlefr]

Well, I guess Roy's next girlfriend could be Tsukiko :p.

[David Argall]

1. WHAT THE....????? OMG!!!!! how can that Mr.Grubwiggler (or in fact ANYONE?) do that to roy!!??? he's a LAWFUL GOOD guy
Given Roy is currently dead, it seems clear he is not immune to much as a result of being LG. As to Mr. Grubwiggler, we have no reason to assume him LG. Not impossible, but he seems rather willing to deal with criminals, murderers inparticular, and creating a flesh golem is pushing evil.



3. can you think/immagine (just for 1 sec!) that Belkar will mysteriously/amazingly Survive untill AFTER the end of the "in-comic" year? you know... despite the Oracle's prediction? :smallconfused:
Sure I can imagine it. I can also imagine my phone is about to ring and I will learn that a dozen playmates of the month are on their way to murder me in the most pleasant way possible. Both are about the same odds. Belkar has about a half-dozen different prophecies that say he is about to bite the big one and it's durn hard to wiggle out of all of them.



4. Celia should have really(i repeat... REALLY!) seen something bad like this coming... i knew that this guy was no good! i had a feeling like that when Celia read the flyer!
Well of course. But see the FAQ



5. I just hope that OOTS has a happy ending! If you're reading this Giant, then I BEG of you! PLZ let OOTS have a happy ending!!!
Elan gets one.



Why doesn't Roy visit Durkon? He's a cleric, he most likely can see the dead, so WHY THE FREAKIN NOT?
Durkon does not have a constantly functioning see dead, and has no reason to be casting such a spell. It's an idea he might try, but only because he doesn't have much in the way of alternatives.


Also, Roy can become a bone golem w/ a soul?
Possible, but far from the norm. Roy needs a houserule if he wants to do it.

[Timespike]

*sigh* This is starting to just feel like stalling to me. I really just want the order back together and Roy resurrected, already. He's been dead for hundreds of strips now.

I like the comic, but this current bit is starting to really get tiresome.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

1. WHAT THE....????? OMG!!!!! how can that Mr.Grubwiggler (or in fact ANYONE?) do that to roy!!??? he's a LAWFUL GOOD guy

Given Roy is currently dead, it seems clear he is not immune to much as a result of being LG. As to Mr. Grubwiggler, we have no reason to assume him LG. Not impossible, but he seems rather willing to deal with criminals, murderers inparticular, and creating a flesh golem is pushing evil

I think he means that Roy is lawful good and his skeleton shouldn't be made into a bone golem.

Yes, Celia should have seen it coming, but then again, if any of the OOTS did the logical thing, we wouldn't have much of a comic. Well, at least she's got a new weapon now.


*sigh* This is starting to just feel like stalling to me. I really just want the order back together and Roy resurrected, already. He's been dead for hundreds of strips now.

I like the comic, but this current bit is starting to really get tiresome.

Yes, I really want Roy to be back among the living. I REALLY hope he comes back by #600. Or at least the end of this book. But at least it's not Azure City.

[disorder]

I liked this strip a little better than the last couple. Celia's sudden attack of blind stupidity in #574 and #575 seemed a little too forced.

Granted, it's in character for her to be naive and ill-informed about humans. And a certain amount of blundering is perfectly normal for the OOTS (it probably even says so on their business cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html)..."Order of the Stick. Somehow surviving our own suboptimal decisions since 1183") Still, every member has at least one thing they are truly good at. They need those shards of competence so that we can believe that with perseverance and a little luck, this bunch of lunatics just might end up saving the world.

Legal matters and careful negotiations are two areas where Celia should shine. Her performance in #575, especially, was painful to watch -- she seems to be screwing up simply because the plot demands it, not because these are the sort of mistakes her character would actually make. (Dammit, Celia, you're negotiating a deal here. This is what you're good at. Don't tell him not to make undead; say what you you do want. 'Resurrection' isn't that hard to pronounce!)

In #576, we seem to get the "real" Celia back. She's still screwing things up, but now she's screwing them up like a goofy overconfident law student, not like a garden-variety idiot. It's good to see her actually reading and critiquing the contract, even if just a little too late, and trying to answer physical force with legal threats. And the casually tossed lightning bolt ("I'm kinda in a hurry") got a laugh from me and a (• •) from old Grubwiggler...for a second, there, she actually caught him off-guard.

[Red XIV]

Wow, Celia seems to have taken a flying leap into stupid good. As Miko was lawful stupid, this looks like a running theme for Roy's girlfriends.
Miko was never Roy's girlfriend.

[Pandabear]

The first thought that came to mind when I saw the flyer was "flarn, that guy is probably no cleric, but someone that makes dead bodies disappear.. acid, quick drying cement etc." That'd make even True Resurrection very hard..

[notanel02]

actually what i meant to type was that "Roy's A LAWFUL GOOD GUY AND DOESN'T DESERVE THIS!" kind of thing, but i didn't have time to edit it! not the "Grubwiggler" guy :smallannoyed::smallconfused:

[Kish]

(still comic related) Why doesn't Roy visit Durkon? He's a cleric, he most likely can see the dead, so WHY THE FREAKIN NOT?
Being a cleric wouldn't let Durkon see the dead any better than any other class without casting a spell to enable himself to do so, and he has no reason to cast such a spell.

[hamishspence]

Bone golems existed in pre-advanced D&D (but were 4 armed). Not sure if there was a 1st or 2nd ed version, and the closest thing to a 3rd ed version was the Dragonbone Golem from Draconomicon.

[Jieze]

Awesome comic.

I'm really enjoying the current side-arc.

Keep up the good work!

[Laurentio II]

Also, Roy can become a bone golem w/ a soul?
You can make a golem from a drawer, if you like. Or from stones. So what's the problem with bones? It's not like there is any soul in a golem. Just a resident earth elemental spirit.
And it doesn't prevent resurrecting him from the animated bones.

It's like when Shojo used the dead wizard skeleton as an hand puppet, only there is an hint of magic.

[DigoDragon]

Maybe Belkar can use his vomit as a weapon....which will just make him puke even more...

Well it could act like a grease spell... a disgusting one at that. :smallsmile:

[Charles Phipps]

Bone Golems were in the Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium. I know because I have them. They're even mentioned in Van Ritchen's Guide to Golems, which I proudly own two copies of. It's the first game to make mention of the Golem/Frankenstein connection.

Wow, I'm old.

But I don't see what the problem is. Roy exists to suffer.

[banjo1985]

Okay...so Roy's a bone golem now...I have to say I did not, by any stretch of the imagination, see that one coming. :smalleek:

[Charles Phipps]

Okay...so Roy's a bone golem now...I have to say I did not, by any stretch of the imagination, see that one coming. :smalleek:

I really hope he possesses it.

That would satisfy my two urges.

1. To stop hearing people demanding Roy back.

2. To see Roy remain dead.

:-)

[jamroar]

And it doesn't prevent resurrecting him from the animated bones.

Hmm, half-golem template for Roy?

[Darkhands]

I agree with the Roy-in-a-golem idea... Roy's already powerful self with his very powerful sword inside the body of a bone golem made from his own skeleton, which is itself incredibly powerful and immune to magic?

THAT'S what you need to fight Xykon!!

[sihnfahl]

Um, Defense attorneys quite often HAVE to do just that.
No, defense attorneys are pretty aware of the criminal element.

Whatever their personal feelings about their clients, though, they have to put aside in their job: namely, defending their interests of their client to the best of their ability and properly advising their client on the legal matters at hand.

They don't go walking down the street of the most depraved slum and go: "la la la, I don't see those prostitutes turning tricks, I don't see those drug dealers on the corner handing out baggies of crack, and I definitely don't see that guy in the alley smacking someone around..."

[Fighteer]

No, defense attorneys are pretty aware of the criminal element.

Whatever their personal feelings about their clients, though, they have to put aside in their job: namely, defending their interests of their client to the best of their ability and properly advising their client on the legal matters at hand.

They don't go walking down the street of the most depraved slum and go: "la la la, I don't see those prostitutes turning tricks, I don't see those drug dealers on the corner handing out baggies of crack, and I definitely don't see that guy in the alley smacking someone around..."
Let's also not forget that defense attorneys are just about the closest thing to sacred persona among the criminal element. It's not smart to bite the hand that (maybe) keeps you out of prison. In a fantasy setting, this of course depends somewhat on the general Lawful/Chaotic orientation of the society, but the basic point remains. Celia, however, is not known to any of the inhabitants of Greysky City and would not enjoy any special immunity from their predation that she wouldn't otherwise get from being able to kick their asses in combat.

Her naïvete (read: low Wisdom score) is fairly simply rooted in her lack of worldly experience. As someone else said, she's pretty much fresh out of school with only one job worth of experience, and that only barely (her one "official" act was to get turned to stone). She has the rose-colored notion that everyone pretty much obeys the law as much as possible. Now, even I have to admit that blindly walking into Greysky City despite Haley's warnings smacks of the Idiot Ball, but it still leads to much hilarity, which is after all the whole point of the comic.

[Mojique]

Is that partially covered red banner featuring a hammer and sickle?
No. Look at #575, row 3, panel 2.

[Ironfang]

Rich,

I had to post because so often I see "LOL" or "ROFL" and I just roll my eyes because I don't don't even need all the digits on my left hand the count the number of times I actually physically laughed aloud in front of a computer screen or book.

However for some strange reason just looking at Belkar falling over and the sounds he was making made me chortle, I am glad I was drinking anything at the time.

Please keep up the great work. I savor reading your strips and save them up as long as I can. By far my favorite comic, the only others I really look forward to reading are Dilbert and Sinfest.

[see]

Look, she was a bit slow earlier, but she caught on soon enough that she made sure the guy wasn't going to turn Roy into an undead. That she didn't think of him turning Roy into a golem, well? How much experience with golem makers does she have, anyway?

[elonin]

Would have been better if she'd asked if he was going to turn Roy into a construct. Also, I've commented before but I can imagine that if Belkar recovers I can imagine him "buying" Roy in order to mistreat him.

I'm guessing that I've missed the reference about "hate and Barrel" that Celia made. Just googled that and came up with crate and barrel, so this was just a play on words.

[teratorn]

I don't think she was that ridiculous. Haley was not happy, either. And Celia did do a nice number on Nale and Thog when they were hog tied. :smallsmile:


Yes, but she believed Nale's story. She simply can not antecipate evil behaviour...

Although of the same alignment she's a sort of anti-RFRI (Roy's former romantic interest).



5. I just hope that OOTS has a happy ending! If you're reading this Giant, then I BEG of you! PLZ let OOTS have a happy ending!!! :sigh: I HOPE THEY ALL LIVE AMONGST US!
Only elan would try to hide his name with such an obvious anagram. notanel= not nale... yeah, nice try.

You already know you'll have your happy ending. Go back to protecting Hinjo!

[AceOfFools]

Wait, what makes you think Celia is a defense attorney? That she was the only underqualified student of law willing to risk their reputation by taking a completely unwinible case deliberately to get close to the hot black guy?

I've met people like Celia; environmentalist nutjob law students. Hell, I know at least one law school that has something of a specialty in environmental law.

Plus she trying to get her boyfriend back from the dead and has been spending time with first stab and then vomit crazy Belkar. I'm not surprised she's not making the best decisions of her life.

Well, I am surprised at the depth of her foolishness, but not enough to threaten my willing suspension of disbelief.

[Querzis]

Yes, but she believed Nale's story. She simply can not antecipate evil behaviour...

Which is something I find totally believable about a sylph. Sylph are naturally good and she mainly lived with other sylph until now. Shes not being dumb at all, shes being pure and innocent. She simply cant understand or see through evil behaviour at all.

You know its kinda ironic how inherently evil people who cant understand and never expect good behaviour is kinda a cliche now but, for some reasons, it seems nobody expect the opposite to happen.

[rman]

Celia is so Good in LG that she cannot see the evil side to most acts. She naturally assumes the best of everyone and all situations.

Miko was so Lawful in LG that she could not see the good side to most acts. She forced the lawful path on everyone in preference to the good.

[Duric]

Product of envivification?

[lord_khaine]

i really cant see any stupid mistakes by Celia in the last couple of pages, most of what happend is simply lack of knowledge, because Celia doesnt have the same metagame knowledge as the readers.

[rosebud]

Shes not being dumb at all, shes being pure and innocent. She simply cant understand or see through evil behaviour at all.Thanks. Yours is the first statement in the entire thread (or perhaps three threads) that actually made sense to me with respect to Celia's actions. Merely calling her naive or inexperienced did not match with her experiences and chosen profession.


Celia is so Good in LG that she cannot see the evil side to most acts. She naturally assumes the best of everyone and all situations.And the second.


i really cant see any stupid mistakes by Celia in the last couple of pages, most of what happend is simply lack of knowledgeShe's a lawyer (in training). You are supposed to use precise language. You do not use slang like, "back up on his feet again". You say, "resurrected" if you mean resurrected. And many lawyers deal with contracts (and thus negotiations). Just because there are limits on options does not mean you don't negotiate and haggle on the terms and price. And why didn't she ask about remove disease for Belkar as long as he was there? (Not to mention that since they are at least a mile away from Haley, she would have set off the Mark of Justice if it had not already gone off. That would have been hilarious, actually. It would have been a fun way to wake Belkar and Haley and alert them to Celia's disappearance, too. But I'm not complaining on how it was set off. That was great.)

Basically, the comments on her being a Sylph and believing in the good of everyone makes some sense. That can explain a lot of her actions. But her imprecision of language and poor negotiations seem out of character. That is why the plot still seems forced. If she had said resurrect and the golem guy said, "Well, I can get him back up on his feet. Will that do?", then one can place the blame of the events on his deceit rather than the sense of her being entirely out of character. Not that it's a huge deal, but it makes it more painful to read and makes me want to get through the train wreck. (In contrast, many sequences, including the entire Hotel series and Roy post-belt, was pure joy to read.) But we're just visitors, and your mileage may very.

[Mercenary Pen]

I think the crucial bit about Celia is not so much the word Lawyer as the words in training. I mean, it's a fairly safe bet that she has some skill points in profession (lawyer) already, but I also think it's safe to say she hasn't got many. I mean, we know for a fact that Roy and co. were only acquitted in the trial she represented them for because it was specifically stacked that way.

I think it's quite probable that Grubwiggler (as a proposed lawful evil character of some long term experience) has more smarts at finding loopholes than Celia (as a law student) has at detecting and outsmarting potential loopholes.

We have no indication that Celia has any sourcebook material to scour when she needs to read up on something (unlike characters such as redcloak), and the only cleric we know she has associated with for any length of time is Durkon, who hasn't raised anyone for the entire duration of the comic. It is unfair to assume that innate knowledge of the mechanics of clerical resurrection is part and parcel of her life experience- especially since she has little or no magic outside of spell-like abilities. Basically, she's never really had to work for what magic she has, and therefore hasn't got any experience concerning how these things are done the hard way.

[Nevitan]

Being a cleric wouldn't let Durkon see the dead any better than any other class without casting a spell to enable himself to do so, and he has no reason to cast such a spell.

well maybe he got help with a permanency see dead, he seemed pretty zealous about destroying undead here ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html ) ...and this certainly isn't the last hopes of someone wanting to see Roy alive at any cost:smallfrown:...

[lord_khaine]

She's a lawyer (in training). You are supposed to use precise language. You do not use slang like, "back up on his feet again". You say, "resurrected" if you mean resurrected. And many lawyers deal with contracts (and thus negotiations). Just because there are limits on options does not mean you don't negotiate and haggle on the terms and price. And why didn't she ask about remove disease for Belkar as long as he was there? (Not to mention that since they are at least a mile away from Haley, she would have set off the Mark of Justice if it had not already gone off. That would have been hilarious, actually. It would have been a fun way to wake Belkar and Haley and alert them to Celia's disappearance, too. But I'm not complaining on how it was set off. That was great.)


i cant agree on this, after he says he isnt going to turn Roy into a undead very few people would cach that its because he will be turned into a golem instead, for a start most people connect golems with the more common iron and stone versions, and bonegolem is proberly one of the most obscure golems there is.

[see]

(Not to mention that since they are at least a mile away from Haley, she would have set off the Mark of Justice if it had not already gone off.

But distance-from-Haley wasn't a trigger, distance-from-Roy was. And Belkar was in the same cart as Roy's body.

[David Argall]

i cant agree on this, after he says he isnt going to turn Roy into a undead very few people would cach that its because he will be turned into a golem instead, for a start most people connect golems with the more common iron and stone versions, and bonegolem is proberly one of the most obscure golems there is.
While few would catch the idea of golem, many would catch the idea that something is wrong here and start asking questions, which would [assuming our fellow's basic honesty] reveal the actual situation. As a lawyer, partly trained or not, Celia should be in that category. It is a weak point in the story.
It is somewhat covered by the comment about being in a hurry [tho just why she is is not clear], so we can assume she was thinking it was all routine and she could check the document as she went, but she is in serious danger of flunking her contracts law class.



But distance-from-Haley wasn't a trigger, distance-from-Roy was. And Belkar was in the same cart as Roy's body.
This was not known to Celia until she arrived at the golem-maker's. So she was being negligent in not thinking of the possibility her taking Roy into the city would endanger Belkar because of the Mark, or she was outright willing to risk damage to an "innocent bystander".

[AceOfFools]

...she was being negligent in not thinking of the possibility her taking Roy into the city would endanger Belkar because of the Mark, or she was outright willing to risk damage to an "innocent bystander".

Belkar is an innocent bystander now?

Celia actively dislikes the little bastard. I'm sure she believes that getting Roy back to be worth the price of triggering the Mark on Belkar.