Avatar: Sozin's Comet

[Phase]

At this moment, I am watching the series finale of perhaps one of the best animated series of all time, Avatar: The Last Airbender. This is the thread for remembering the old times, and reveling in the new. I have so far desribed the final, episodic movie as: awesome, Kickass, sweet, etc.

I would keep typing, but it's back. Goodby- Holy Crap that was awesome!

[Twin2]

Good lord now thats the way fights in a finale should be done.

[thubby]

all the awesome of an anime, + potentially one of the best endings in TV show history!
*head explodes from awesome*

[Phase]

The above posts= Yes + Hell Yes.

[GryffonDurime]

Wow.

I'm really not sure what to do in the face of that. I've tried to watch other things after that, or play games, or...

...but they all just seem unsatisfying by comparison.

I want to run an Avatar game, and I want it now.

[AlterForm]

HELLS. To the YES.

Azula...and Zuko...damn.

[Rogue 7]

Maaaan, you know, I tried to love it. I really did. The fights were amazingly awesome. The opening bit, with Aang struggling over the fact that he had to kill the firelord was good. Azula going apewire was fun and awesome. But....total casualties: Sokka's leg. And the deus ex machina that pulled Aang into the avatar state, followed by the deus ex machina that allowed Aang to not kill Ozai, and a few questions: namely- how the hell they got to Ba Sing Se that quickly, kind of ruined it for me. I mean, I liked it, I really did, but when you compare it to what happened in the second season finale, it played out completely cliched. They set it up so hard that Aang had to kill the firelord, that he had come to terms with that...and then he copped out. I'm a bit irritated.

Also- though the way they pulled it off was awesome and totally not a wallbanger now that I think about it, who in the hell thought that it would be a good idea to send two nonbenders and an earthbender against a fleet of airships? Though Toph's Metalbending ownage was ten kinds of awesome, as were Sokka and Suki, that plan seemed somewhat flawed. It would have made more sense to send the White Lotus society and then mop up Ba Sing Se.

So: Zuko was great, destroying Azula, getting his girl, becoming firelord, and generally being awesome. Katara's waterbending prowess against Azula was fun (though I had hoped that that chain would send the lightning shooting through her and killing her), Toph had her moments of pure awesome, as did the old masters, and the Dragonball Z esque fight was ridiculously fun (even if I do like the martial arts a bit better), the cliches and cop-outs just...bugged me.

[Twin2]

Though Toph's Metalbending ownage was ten kinds of awesome

You want even more wallbanging goodness? She'd have been baked goods thanks to convection schmonvection (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvectionSchmonvection). That being said it's best to simply take in the awesome, and not think to much into it. Do that and you'll ruin most things for yourself trying to apply any sort of logic to it.

[Rogue 7]

That was something like a half-inch or so of steel. It would probably take a lot more than a few quick blasts of fire to penetrate, I think (unless my physics knowledge is lacking.) Like with Aang in that ball getting wasted by the Firelord. But I disregard that just because Toph is awesome.

[Phase]

Also, we see that there is at least an inch of air in there between two layers of metal. Even if the outer shell got hot, the inner would remain... un-hot...

[AstralFire]

The biggest weak spot was Aang and the Fire Lord, I felt.

But oh my god, the Agni Kai was all kinds of awesome.

[GryffonDurime]

I have to say, even after letting my feelings on the finale mellow for a while, I'm still blown away.

As always, the finale meant the arrival of a new spiritual force in the Avatar's life: in the first season, Aang braved the depths of the Spirit World to reap advice from Koh, and also invoked the very power of the Ocean Spirit. In the second season, he was drawn to the Guru, and came close to mastering the Avatar State. And in the last finale, he takes council from his latest incarnations and is pulled towards the Lion Turtle, his final adviser.

It has a nice symmetry to it.

Also, the Agni Kai? Simply put, one of the most beautifully animated sequences I've ever seen.

[Ceric]

Toph the Melon Lord = WIN! :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and the rest of it was good too. 'Specially the Agni Kai. Pure Awesome.

[Inigo Montoya]

I feel a great disturbance in the Internet. As if millions of shippers suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced....

Great episode.

[Caewil]

Yeah but they really kept up the ship-tease right till the end. I can imagine thousands of Zutara fans squealing when Katara heals Zuko.

[Xilehxt]

Indeed. Full of awesome. Loads of it. Cringed abit at the deux ex machina bits in the Aang Firelord fight, but still, thoroughly enjoyable. I'm just piqued at some loose ends, like Zuko's mother and Azula's fate.

Also, shippers don't care what the show says. ZUTARA will live on!!

[thubby]

*agrees about deus ex machina*
what are shippers?
azula is an interesting problem. you'd be hard pressed to keep her imprisoned. heck, they'd be lucky if they could move her from that spot without getting killed.

[Krytha]

I just logged the all nighter going through youtube, but it was worth it. As a zutara fan, it killed me to see that the last 2 hours of Avatar were PURE zutara, especially when I knew that it wasn't going to happen. *shakes fist*

The whole Lion Turtle thing was a giant jumble, very unclear and not so good when it comes to why or how it works. I don't mind the avatar fighting, the show is called avatar so I expected it to come down to Aang's superpowers, but what I didn't like was the "I can strip people of bending LOOKOUT Lion Turtle style!" because (as I mentioned before) poorly explained, and something of a cop-out.

I loved the first airship crew. Sheer genius.

[Arioch]

I agree with most of what's been said here, except that bit about Aang's avatar state being a deus ex machina. When the characters have been dwelling on something since the series began, I don't really think it counts. I noticed that Ozai tried to pull an Azula and kill Aang while he was in the State, but failed because he lacked the supreme eviltude that made it possible for his daughter.

My one complaint is that I would have liked to see Azula keep her cool, evil genius attitude until the end, rather than going loopy and losing her magnificent bastard status by banishing all her servants. I guess losing Mai and Ty Lee is what did it.

[Beholder1995]

Great show last night, although there were a few moments that had me thinking more or less WTF??? (I.E. That bit with Aang taking Ozai's firebending) I was also kind of shocked to realize that no one was gonna die. It just seemed akward that Azula and Ozai just get chucked in prison. In every last culture across the world from the cave men to modern america, execution was perfectly acceptable. I don't believe in it myself, but I still think someone should've died. Frankly, I think there's a surprising amount of meat left for a fourth book. And after all, there isn't an 'air' book. I mean, what with Aang and Katara being together, and Zuko being fire lord, and Azula having gone completely off her rocker, and the business with Zuko's mother never being resolved... a fourth book certainly seems like an avid possibility. The only thing I can think of that would hamper this would be the 'The End' at the end of last night's show. Hmmm.....

On a completely different note, how is Ozai really that bad? I mean before the comet, of course. All the guy's trying to do is conquer the world! And last I checked, only about a dozen people ever got killed during his reign! It's not like he's rounding up innocent civilians and chucking them in death camps! Ozai's just conquering cities and leaving it at that. Alexander the great, as far as I can tell, was quite a bit worse than Ozai. Even Charlemagne, or William the Conquerer, were far nastier fellows than the Fire Lord. The only thing that seems to justify this hatred of Ozai the characters have for him is this whole 'balance' issue. So.... yeah.

[Arioch]

On a completely different note, how is Ozai really that bad? I mean before the comet, of course. All the guy's trying to do is conquer the world! And last I checked, only about a dozen people ever got killed during his reign! It's not like he's rounding up innocent civilians and chucking them in death camps! Ozai's just conquering cities and leaving it at that. Alexander the great, as far as I can tell, was quite a bit worse than Ozai. Even Charlemagne, or William the Conquerer, were far nastier fellows than the Fire Lord. The only thing that seems to justify this hatred of Ozai the characters have for him is this whole 'balance' issue. So.... yeah.

I think it's because the world the characters live only really has three sovereign powers (plus the Air Nomads, who weren't really a nation at all). In a situation like that, trying to take over another country is a pretty big deal.

[AstralFire]

I think it's because the world the characters live only really has three sovereign powers (plus the Air Nomads, who weren't really a nation at all). In a situation like that, trying to take over another country is a pretty big deal.

Uh, the planned genocide of the Earth Kingdom when the comet came?

[Saurous]

He wasn't just trying to conquer the Earth Kingdom. He was talking about conquering the Earth Kingdom by way of complete genocidal destruction of the earthbenders, similar to the way the airbenders were wiped out.
That massive wave of fire he was creating with the airships wasn't going to be used just to burn down some trees.

So, yeah. Conquering countries = okay, genocide = not okay.

[Arioch]

I assumed that by "before the comet", he meant "other than his plans for the comet" as well. Otherwise the question is a redundant one. Before the whole business with Sozin's comet, all Ozai was was an expansionist warlord and megalomaniac, different from the dozens of such people in our history only in that he could firebend. With the advent of the comet he became a potential mass-murderer. That's why the Gaang changed their minds regarding the plan to wait until after the comet had come and gone before attacking him.

[EmeraldRose]

My son and I have recently begun watching the series, having gone thru the first season. We haven't watched the second season yet, but watched most of this week's final episodes. He got to stay up late last night to watch the end, and it was really incredible! Honestly, for a kid's show I think it was very well done, and I don't know how my 5 year old would have reacted had Aang killed Ozai...I found the stripping of his powers to be much more satisfying.

Anyway, he's decided over the last couple of weeks that he is going to be an airbender when he grows up :smallbiggrin:

[Beholder1995]

He wasn't just trying to conquer the Earth Kingdom. He was talking about conquering the Earth Kingdom by way of complete genocidal destruction of the earthbenders, similar to the way the airbenders were wiped out.
That massive wave of fire he was creating with the airships wasn't going to be used just to burn down some trees.

So, yeah. Conquering countries = okay, genocide = not okay.

I dunno.... I feel like Alexander the Great did something a whole lot like that with some city in Persia (the whole burn down and spread with salt deal). And Ozai seemed like he was only gonna burn the land, not the people. (A pretty bad deed, but burnt land can recover pretty fast, if I recall correctly.) Although, it all was pretty vague.

[AstralFire]

I assumed that by "before the comet", he meant "other than his plans for the comet" as well. Otherwise the question is a redundant one. Before the whole business with Sozin's comet, all Ozai was was an expansionist warlord and megalomaniac, different from the dozens of such people in our history only in that he could firebend. With the advent of the comet he became a potential mass-murderer. That's why the Gaang changed their minds regarding the plan to wait until after the comet had come and gone before attacking him.

He had benders kidnapped/killed - even ones who hadn't done anything to him, like Katara's mom (okay, yeah, she can't actually bend but they came to the village for the bender) and while few on-screen deaths occur, I think we are supposed to walk away with the impression from stuff like how the Mechanist got blackmailed about that the Fire Nation does kill people.


Anyway, he's decided over the last couple of weeks that he is going to be an airbender when he grows up :smallbiggrin:

Hee! Me, I'd take Firebending anyday, looks like they have an easier time flying under their own power.


I dunno.... I feel like Alexander the Great did something a whole lot like that with some city in Persia (the whole burn down and spread with salt deal). And Ozai seemed like he was only gonna burn the land, not the people. (A pretty bad deed, but burnt land can recover pretty fast, if I recall correctly.) Although, it all was pretty vague.

There was mention of assuring there would be no more earthbenders, a la Air Nomads.

[Gorbash]

Damn. This episode was made of win. Just the sheer awesomeness out of EVERYONE - White Lotus Masters, Toph, Azula, Zuko made my day, but the Phoenix King - Avatar fight man oh man... I particularly enjoyed the music in the Agni Kai duel. Everythig's been said. An epic series. Yeah, it lacks the brutality of an anime, but it sure does give in return by awesome fighting scenes, great humor (Suprisingly knowledgable merchant of cabbage, I laughed my ass off :smallbiggrin: Or the scene on the airship when Sakka tricks the crew - not very beliveable, but brilliant), character development, voice acting (if only they gave Kevin Michael Richardson (aka Sarevok) a bigger role)... My favourite afer Fullmetal Alchemist.

[Enlong]

I just logged the all nighter going through youtube, but it was worth it. As a zutara fan, it killed me to see that the last 2 hours of Avatar were PURE zutara, especially when I knew that it wasn't going to happen. *shakes fist*

The whole Lion Turtle thing was a giant jumble, very unclear and not so good when it comes to why or how it works. I don't mind the avatar fighting, the show is called avatar so I expected it to come down to Aang's superpowers, but what I didn't like was the "I can strip people of bending LOOKOUT Lion Turtle style!" because (as I mentioned before) poorly explained, and something of a cop-out.

I loved the first airship crew. Sheer genius.
The Lion Turtle thing makes perfect sense to me. The fifth element, open to the Avatar alone, is Spirit. As the Turtle says "in the time before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves." This explains the Avatar State and the Avatar's ability to enter the Spirit World: all of these are forms of Spiritbending, though Aang didn't know it. The Lion Turtles are the original source of this power, just like the Moon, Badger-Moles, Dragons, and Sky Bison were the sources of the other Bending styles. Not only does it make perfect sense, but it also explains some of Aang's powers that were previously unexplainable.

Also, it wins because Aang is now Captain Planet.

[Arioch]

The Lion Turtle thing makes perfect sense to me. The fifth element, open to the Avatar alone, is Spirit. As the Turtle says "in the time before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves." This explains the Avatar State and the Avatar's ability to enter the Spirit World: all of these are forms of Spiritbending, though Aang didn't know it. The Lion Turtles are the original source of this power, just like the Moon, Badger-Moles, Dragons, and Sky Bison were the sources of the other Bending styles. Not only does it make perfect sense, but it also explains some of Aang's powers that were previously unexplainable.

That...makes a lot of sense, actually. Thanks.

[Beholder1995]

There are two things that have been bugging me about this episode (well, two things that I haven't already mentioned :smalltongue:)

1. The airships. What is the surface of those things made of? If it's some kind of cloth, the ships should've been ripped and stopped floating when Sokka rammed them. In fact, they did it twice and didn't manage to puncture the airships. Or THREE times if you count that one ship Sokka pierced with his sword. And yet they remained in the air. What up?

2. The firebending. Last I checked, fire doesn't have any mass. So how is it that Fire Lord Ozai, launching fireballs at Aang's little stone sanctum, managed to toss it around like a ball? Or Azula's jetpack-thing. Fire shouldn't be moving things around, otherwise it should be called 'explosionbending'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Enlong]

There are two things that have been bugging me about this episode (well, two things that I haven't already mentioned :smalltongue:)

1. The airships. What is the surface of those things made of? If it's some kind of cloth, the ships should've been ripped and stopped floating when Sokka rammed them. In fact, they did it twice and didn't manage to puncture the airships. Or THREE times if you count that one ship Sokka pierced with his sword. And yet they remained in the air. What up?

2. The firebending. Last I checked, fire doesn't have any mass. So how is it that Fire Lord Ozai, launching fireballs at Aang's little stone sanctum, managed to toss it around like a ball? Or Azula's jetpack-thing. Fire shouldn't be moving things around, otherwise it should be called 'explosionbending'. Correct me if I'm wrong.
1. I'm sure I heard a clang or some other such sound when someone fell and landed on the balloon, so I think it's a fairly rigid shell of metal, with the envelope inside or something like that.

2. It may not be realistic, but at least it's consistent: Firebending has caused explosions a number of times, mot notably when Zuko's attempts at lightning blew up in his face.

[Saurous]

2. The firebending. Last I checked, fire doesn't have any mass. So how is it that Fire Lord Ozai, launching fireballs at Aang's little stone sanctum, managed to toss it around like a ball? Or Azula's jetpack-thing. Fire shouldn't be moving things around, otherwise it should be called 'explosionbending'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess a better term for firebending would be "Energybending," or perhaps "Hotthingsbending." Strong firebenders can create lightning and explosive force, so it could be possible that Azula's flying and Ozai's fireball pummeling could be caused by explosions and flame.

Did everyone forget Combustion Man already? He was a firebender, and he could blow things up.

[WarriorTribble]

I do wish they didn't bring up heart, the fifth element, spirit, and any other name one can think of. I find writers tend to use that force to bring about last minute miracles.

The four parter was nice. Though I wonder why Azula snapped so severely when it came to matters of trust. I guess being royal, and having a scary personality doesn't prepare the mind for betrayal. Still I hoped she'd be mentally prepared for it happening eventually. Even the Y7 Avatar world has its share of close betrayals, and it usually happens to the jerks to boot.

Overall while it was a very pretty ending, they focused on just one plot point, albeit a major one. As odd as it may seem, I wished they rushed through the take out Sozin/Azula part, and focused on answering questions like "Where's Zuko's mom?" Perhaps I've seen one too many stories where a character struggles to do a necessary evil, then finds a way around it. Hell, in retrospect just one series made me jaded to that theme, but that another topic. :smallsmile:

[Beholder1995]

Did everyone forget Combustion Man already? He was a firebender, and he could blow things up.

I always assumed he was a psion-type, and not a bender. :smallconfused:

How does an airship fly when it's coated in steel?

[Arioch]

Overall while it was a very pretty ending, they focused on just one plot point, albeit a major one. As odd as it may seem, I wished they rushed through the take out Sozin/Azula part, and focused on answering questions like "Where's Zuko's mom?" Perhaps I've seen one too many stories where a character struggles to do a necessary evil, then finds a way around it. Hell, in retrospect just one series made me jaded to that theme, but that another topic. :smallsmile:

Yeah, I'd've liked to find that out, too. Shame they didn't sort it out, though I'm sure it'll be fixed by word of god (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod)eventually.

Oh, and the Fire Lord in the episode is Ozai, not Sozin. Sozin was the fire lord before the fire lord before Ozai. I think. Anyways, Sozin started the war.

[Enlong]

I always assumed he was a psion-type, and not a bender. :smallconfused:

How does an airship fly when it's coated in steel?

How does a ship float when it's made of metal? They must have found some way to keep it buoyant. Some really light gas or something. Idunno.

[Arioch]

I always assumed he was a psion-type, and not a bender. :smallconfused:

How does an airship fly when it's coated in steel?

It's not an airship as we would use the term - it's not a dirigible. It's more like a hot air balloon, kept afloat by convection. I don't know if that's really viable, but that's how I understood it.

That's how the smaller war balloons work, anyway. The fire nation just scaled it up.

And Combustion Man (or Sparky Sparky Boom Man, as I prefer to call him) was definitely a firebender. Like Bumi, he could bend without using his hands.

[Beholder1995]

Y'know, there's always room for another season.... maybe.... There certainly seem to be far more plot holes left than in most series finales. I think it would be interesting to have a 'Book 4: Air', to see the airbenders repopulate and Zuko find out about his mom. My personal theory about his mom is this:

Fire Lord Azulon ordered Ozai to kill Zuko, but Zuko's mom couldn't bear to see Zuko die. Zuko's mom then offered herself up in Zuko's place, and Ozai ended up killing her. Ozai then blames his wife's death on Zuko, and they have a heated (pun intended) relationship onward.

[Krytha]

The Lion Turtle thing makes perfect sense to me. The fifth element, open to the Avatar alone, is Spirit. As the Turtle says "in the time before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves." This explains the Avatar State and the Avatar's ability to enter the Spirit World: all of these are forms of Spiritbending, though Aang didn't know it. The Lion Turtles are the original source of this power, just like the Moon, Badger-Moles, Dragons, and Sky Bison were the sources of the other Bending styles. Not only does it make perfect sense, but it also explains some of Aang's powers that were previously unexplainable.

Also, it wins because Aang is now Captain Planet.

Ok, well I watched it on youtube and I couldn't hear a thing he said, so I guess I just tuned out most of it. But don't you still get the impression that they were like... quick! How do we fix Aang's problem? LION TURTLES!

[Beholder1995]

Ok, well I watched it on youtube and I couldn't hear a thing he said, so I guess I just tuned out most of it. But don't you still get the impression that they were like... quick! How do we fix Aang's problem? LION TURTLES!


:biggrin:

Well, they had to do something to prevent someone actually *gasp* dying, didn't they? I think that throughout the whole third season, they used the word 'death' a total of 0 times.

[Moff Chumley]

It won. There was nary a duff moment. All though I wish Katara had a more active role...

[Nerd-o-rama]

I have two questions:

1) Where are you people seeing this? Was it on last night in the US and I was busy at the movies?

2) Why in the name of Shiva and Bruce Lee are you not spoiler-tagging things! At least put it in the title, seriously, since it seems that every post is speaking openly.

Come to think of it, I'm not really sure how I'm going to check responses to this for the answer to my first question.

[Arioch]

I have two questions:

1) Where are you people seeing this? Was it on last night in the US and I was busy at the movies?

The internet, dear Nerd-o-rama. Personally, I've been watching them here (http://www.freakncool.com/watchavatar/17/), but I'm sure there are other sites.

And they've been using the words "death" and "kill" plenty of times. Sometimes they say "end" or "demise" or something instead, but death is certainly present, if not explicit.

[EmeraldRose]

It was on last night in the US. They spent a week playing up to it, and replaying the last several episodes. I believe they may have run thru the entire series leading up to it, though I only saw the last several this week.

[Helanna]

I believe they may have run thru the entire series leading up to it, though I only saw the last several this week.

Indeed they did. It's probably supposed to make up for the fact that they weren't showing it at ALL for the last few months.

But that finale was pure awesome. And while it does resemble a dues ex machina, we must remember that we are the periphery demographic, and that the show is (wrongly, in my opinion) aimed at kids. Besides, it wasn't a complete asspull, there was an explanation.

I especially liked the Agni Kai and watching Azula slowly slide into madness. Not to mention all the bad-assery going on. Toph, Iroh, Zuko, Bumi, all the White Lotus members . . . pretty much everyone, really. It was pretty epic, but also really funny! I watched it with my friend, and we both felt sorry for the birthday guy. Poor guy!! We decided Sokka probably saved his life in the long run, so it was a good birthday present. :smallsmile:

My hope is that if there's not another season (which I hope there is. They left it open!) then the creators will move onto another show, one aimed at adults, where they can explicitly go into more mature themes, and show more deaths . . . I was kinda disappointed no one died.

[Krytha]

My hope is that if there's not another season (which I hope there is. They left it open!) then the creators will move onto another show, one aimed at adults, where they can explicitly go into more mature themes, and show more deaths . . . I was kinda disappointed no one died.

Death doesn't make a show mature.

The birthday guy was a favourite scene of mine.

[Tragic_Comedian]

I followed the show during the first season, and part of the second season, but then they stopped making episodes for some reason for a while and i haven't watched it sense then. Is it out on DVD yet?

[Jayngfet]

It was awsome, totally worth missing so much of hellboy.

[GryffonDurime]

To those who argue that the Lion Turtle came from nowhere, I counterargue that it was definately meant to be there:

From the Library:
http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/210/341.jpg

Likewise, I think everyone's missing the point of Spiritbending and the Lion Turtle's words. That sentence is probably the most telling revelation about the entire nature of Bending and the origin of the Avatar world!

"In the time before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves."

There was a time before the creation of the Avatar! There was sentient life before the planet spawned a soul, and before anyone could bend! There is a direct connection implied between the Avatar and the very capacity to bend! From the way it's described, it seems almost as if there was a time when the bounds between the Spirit World and the Mortal World weren't as clearly defined. The Lion Turtle offers up a bridge for all the unexplained spiritual phenomena of the Avatar world, from the Guru's knowledge to the powers of Spirits.

[Talkkno]

I would liked Ty lee and Mai to do actually do some fighting....and

[Rogue 7]

I loved that Ty Lee joined the Kyoshi Warriors. Glad to see that she got a happy ending.

But I still feel that, though fairly justified, the energybending was a cop out. Aang spent about half the movie worrying about the fact that he would have to kill the firelord, and coming to grips with the fact that, yes, he did have to do it. The previous Avatars agreed, Zuko agreed, and Aang finally came to grips with it. The moral clearly set up was that to oppose great evil, one must do morally questionable things- I.E. kill people. Now, me, I feel that that's a perfectly acceptable thing. But evidently it wasn't appropriate for a Y-7 audience, so it got changed, and the moral, for me, got twisted.

[Tengu_temp]

DON'T LOOK AT THE SPOILERS DON'T LOOK AT THE SPOILERS DON'T LOOK AT THE SPOILERS!!

Oof, success. I am going to watch this today. Seeing that the last episodes were very good (especially Ember Island Players - lampshade hanging galore!), I am expecting an awesome ending, fitting an awesome series.

[Gorbash]

Why in the name of Shiva and Bruce Lee are you not spoiler-tagging things!

Becuase the name of the topic is Avatar: Sozin's Comet. What did you think it's about? Of course we're gonna talk about what happened, and there's no point for those who didn't watch it to read it. Since everything in this topic is spoiler, kinda no point in spoiler tagging...

[AstralFire]

I loved that Ty Lee joined the Kyoshi Warriors. Glad to see that she got a happy ending.

But I still feel that, though fairly justified, the energybending was a cop out. Aang spent about half the movie worrying about the fact that he would have to kill the firelord, and coming to grips with the fact that, yes, he did have to do it. The previous Avatars agreed, Zuko agreed, and Aang finally came to grips with it. The moral clearly set up was that to oppose great evil, one must do morally questionable things- I.E. kill people. Now, me, I feel that that's a perfectly acceptable thing. But evidently it wasn't appropriate for a Y-7 audience, so it got changed, and the moral, for me, got twisted.

I was expecting him to cripple the Fire Lord like a more permanent Ty Lee job, removing his ability to bend. That would have been decisive harm without killing - a nice middle ground, one which both gets the moral to kids while also encouraging the idea that there is another way. I feel like either of the other two options (killing him or what actually occurred) was something of a cop-out.

[Cybren]

Azula wouldn't escape- she lost it, she was totally bonkers. That's how Zuko beat her so handedly. That's how Katara beat her (which was so clever I think Sokka finally rubbed off on her)
And Azula is certainly not more evil than Ozai. Ozai is who taught her to be a manipulative evil hag. And when she finally gained power she couldn't handle it. Azula thought she was evil, she wanted to be evil, she thought her 'friends' were just tools but when they crossed her, they didn't violate her evil schemes, they violated her trust. It was unsettling for her and it broke her. Ozai clearly saw that, and had no problem kicking her daughter to the curb.



I think it's because the world the characters live only really has three sovereign powers (plus the Air Nomads, who weren't really a nation at all). In a situation like that, trying to take over another country is a pretty big deal.

A nation is a group of people sharing a common culture and language- the air nomads were a nation.

[Tengu_temp]

Okay, I've seen it. It was great. I love how masterfully the pacing was done (not even a single dull moment), and the action was awesome. There were really no plot holes to begin with - the thing with the lion turtle seemed very fitting to be, and, as GryffonDurime has shown, it was foreshadowed before. The only thing that made me raise an eyebrow was how quickly Azula lost her sanity, but... I guess I know the reason for that. And it's not the betrayal of her friends, although it had an impact too, but the realization that, after all the stuff she's done loyally for her father, he simply throws her the title of Firelord as a second prize and excuse. She trying to tell herself that she actually has an important position now, and failing, has driven her insane and even more hateful.

Or something along these lines. I'm not a psychoanalist and neither did I ever really like Azula much.

I expected that there will be no deaths. This is Avatar, after all. I agree with Krytha - showing people die right and left would not make this show more mature. Just Darker and Edgier.

[Cubey]

My personal theory about his mom is this:

Fire Lord Azulon ordered Ozai to kill Zuko, but Zuko's mom couldn't bear to see Zuko die. Zuko's mom then offered herself up in Zuko's place, and Ozai ended up killing her. Ozai then blames his wife's death on Zuko, and they have a heated (pun intended) relationship onward.

Not quite. Here's an official version, straight from the creators themselves (actually, either that or TVTropes is full of hateful LIES!)
The first part is as you predicted: Fire Lord Azulon ordered Ozai to kill Zuko, but Zuko's mom couldn't bear to see Zuko die. So she killed Azulon, then fled/was secretely banished. And Ozai used the opportunity to seize the Fire Lord title. So, Ursa is still out there somewhere. Probably.

[Cybren]

Okay, I've seen it. It was great. I love how masterfully the pacing was done (not even a single dull moment), and the action was awesome. There were really no plot holes to begin with - the thing with the lion turtle seemed very fitting to be, and, as GryffonDurime has shown, it was foreshadowed before. The only thing that made me raise an eyebrow was how quickly Azula lost her sanity, but... I guess I know the reason for that. And it's not the betrayal of her friends, although it had an impact too, but the realization that, after all the stuff she's done loyally for her father, he simply throws her the title of Firelord as a second prize and excuse. She trying to tell herself that she actually has an important position now, and failing, has driven her insane and even more hateful.

Or something along these lines. I'm not a psychoanalist and neither did I ever really like Azula much.

I expected that there will be no deaths. This is Avatar, after all. I agree with Krytha - showing people die right and left would not make this show more mature. Just Darker and Edgier.
I think accepting the fact that during a war you have to kill people is something you have to do. And all the characters but Aang did (think how many fire nation airmen Sokka killed by downing all those airships)

[Beholder1995]

I think accepting the fact that during a war you have to kill people is something you have to do. And all the characters but Aang did (think how many fire nation airmen Sokka killed by downing all those airships)

Actually, the airships never went down. Something that really made it wierd for me to watch.

[Tengu_temp]

I think accepting the fact that during a war you have to kill people is something you have to do. And all the characters but Aang did (think how many fire nation airmen Sokka killed by downing all those airships)

Very few or none, actually, seeing that the downed ones just landed on the ground and kept being there while the one that was destroyed got all the crewmen thrown into the ocean? Avatar has the biggest (mostly) casualty-less conflict I've seen, ever.

Which reminds me... anyone else felt sad when Sokka lost his weapons? C'mon, boomerang!

[Helanna]

I agree that death doesn't necessarily make a show more mature, but well-done and well-placed death can, and a show CAN be better because of death. Of course, this takes exceptionally good writing, otherwise it just comes off as rather psychopathic.


Very few or none, actually, seeing that the downed ones just landed on the ground and kept being there while the one that was destroyed got all the crewmen thrown into the ocean? Avatar has the biggest (mostly) casualty-less conflict I've seen, ever.

Indeed. The show actually takes pains to show crewmen and whatnot escaping. The best example is Day of the Black Sun, when the tanks were being crushed - and two FN soldiers ran out of each one right before it was crushed (or something like that, I can't really remember.)

I'm re-watching it now . . . I want to see a spider-fly, caught in its own web. This image really amuses me for some reason (surely not because I hate spiders. That can't be it.)

Edit: Still watching it, at the Agni Kai part. I just thought I'd say that this is without a doubt my favorite part: I love the music, I love the red vs. blue theme (I like that in all the shows I've seen it in, I just think it's really cool). But Katara actually freezing herself and Azula at the same time . . . that was pretty awesome, and not something I ever thought of. It was very clever . . . and I liked it more the second time because I wasn't worrying about the character's fates this time around. They really did make it look like Zuko died for a moment or two. He's my favorite character, and my favorite characters have a habit of, well, dying.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay, now I've seen it. Much better.

\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/

Anyway, yeah, I found no real fault with it. One or two important things came out of nowhere, but eh, it's just a TV show. Everyone was awesome in this, in fight scenes and out of them. And I have to say, Katara's finisher on Azula was probably my favorite part. I was like "wait, what? Oh man, OWNED!"

And writers, don't think I didn't notice what you did with the party split. You shipper-taunting bastards (on both parties).

Finally, I leave you with my favorite line of the epilogue, and leave it at that.

Kiyoshi Warrior Ty Lee: "Yeah, the girls and I really bonded in prison."

[Rogue 7]

Man, I was convinced for a moment that Sokka, Toph, and Suki were done for. That whole bit was very well-done.

[Firestar27]

Man, I was convinced for a moment that Sokka, Toph, and Suki were done for. That whole bit was very well-done.

Yeah, me too.


The Lion Turtle thing makes perfect sense to me. The fifth element, open to the Avatar alone, is Spirit. As the Turtle says "in the time before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves." This explains the Avatar State and the Avatar's ability to enter the Spirit World: all of these are forms of Spiritbending, though Aang didn't know it. The Lion Turtles are the original source of this power, just like the Moon, Badger-Moles, Dragons, and Sky Bison were the sources of the other Bending styles. Not only does it make perfect sense, but it also explains some of Aang's powers that were previously unexplainable.

That makes a lot of sense.


Also, it wins because Aang is now Captain Planet.

Sheer Awesomeness. I laughed out loud at that one (because I hate the phrase "lol" and it was literally out loud).

I have to say that at first I thought that Azula just had really bad voice acting, starting with the end of The Boiling Rock Part II. I thought that the voice actor couldn't portray an angry Azula that was using hot anger instead of cold anger (rage vs. control). As the season finally went on, I realized that the voice actor was great. She was giving a really good portrayal of Azula losing her mind. I just hadn't realized it yet.


This was a great season finale. The way another review put it was that one of the only bad things in the finale was that it made the rest of the season pale in comparison.

[GryffonDurime]

I must be the king of the Lion Turtles, because I found one again, though this time outside of "canon" material. Ladies and gentlemen, from the unaired pilot:

http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/007/018.jpg

Not really terribly relevant to the discussion at hand, but hey.

[Phase]

Wait, there was an unaired pilot? Where?

[thubby]

doesn't a totem of the turtle show up in the opening? *aang smashes into it*

oh, and about the oomf in fire bending. the force of any explosion, rocket, bomb, or engine, is merely a massive expansion of air. if a fire bender could make enough heat to cut a building (azula), pushing a rock wouldn't be any real jump.

[Paragon Badger]

Did anyone else feel sorry for Azula when she cried, after being defeated in that (awesome) fight?

She felt betrayed by her mother for 'being a monster', but at the same time had immense guilt about said monsterism and also felt guilty that her mother really did love her.

She felt the need to control everything around her ever since she was a child, perhaps out of fear of being betrayed.

Then, Ty Lee and Mai really do betray her (people she genuinely grew to like and confide in, as seen in the Beach episode), and put a serious dent in her feelings of dominence.

Now she becomes Fire lord, and she knows this is a coveted position that has been usurped in the past. This pushes her over the edge and Azula becomes paranoid that everyone is out to get her. She has her power, but believes it is a fragile one...

Finally, she is defeated in quite a symbolic manner; chained and bound. She struggles vainly, but just ends up crying. She's lost all control over everything.

Really, Azula's theme in the entire series was about her dominence over everyone around her, and it's quite fitting that she cries like a little girl because thing's didn't go her way (to put it simply.)

I thought it was actually quite sad. :smallfrown:

[H. Zee]

To all the people complaining about the so-called 'lack of realism' in the finale:

You are watching a show where PEOPLE SHOOT FIRE FROM THEIR FINGERTIPS. At one point, we see a GIANT TURTLE WITH TREES ON ITS BACK. Complaining about the airships is petty and, frankly, just ridiculous. MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra). If your enjoyment of something this awesome was genuinely marred by such tiny, insignificant details not conforming to your worldview, then your standards are simply too high and no fictional work will ever satisfy you.

Ahem.

Yes. The only thing wrong with this finale was that they should have made it half an hour longer, and fit in what happened to Zuko's mother and Iroh's son and all that jazz. And they can always make a one-off episode explaining all that, or even a whole season called 'Air.' But if they don't, if they just leave it there, I won't mind. They've said all they needed to say. Quite simply, Mike and Bryan have created a masterpiece, despite Nickolodeon's best efforts.

I am now basking in post-Avatar glow such as I have not felt since the second season's finale. :smallbiggrin:

[Nevrmore]

Though I wonder why Azula snapped so severely when it came to matters of trust. I guess being royal, and having a scary personality doesn't prepare the mind for betrayal. Still I hoped she'd be mentally prepared for it happening eventually. Even the Y7 Avatar world has its share of close betrayals, and it usually happens to the jerks to boot.
She snapped because Mai and Ty Lee betrayed her in The Boiling Rock. Not only were they her two most loyal soldiers, they were her only friends. Her delusions of grandeur kept her from seeing that they were forced to betray her because of her own megalomania and instead her psyche rationalized it as being "if my friends can't be trusted, no one can."

---

I readily admit that the Lion Turtle and Aang's "Spiritbending" was not a copout and was indeed the intended conclusion to the series, and while it works on an intrinsic level that withholds from breaking the universe's established rules or breaking willing suspension of disbelief, it's still disappointing.

I mean, all that build-up. All Aang's friends telling him he has to kill Ozai. All Aang's past lives telling him he has to kill Ozai. Aang himself saying he has to kill Ozai. Iroh, more subtly, saying that he can't kill Ozai since it would look like in-blood feuding, but it'd be the Avatar who would have to kill him.

I was fully expecting Aang to come to terms with it when he used Toph's vibration-o-sense to trap the Fire Lord and reluctantly kill him. I wanted it to happen. I was expecting that he would do it, and the world would be saved, and Zuko would become the Fire Lord and Aang be a hero, but there would always be that evidence of Aang's guilt over having to break his pacifistic vows, always that nagging inner-turmoil. Hell, maybe that'd be what would keep him from kissing Katara in the finale's final moments (I'm not a fan of the "get-the-girl" endings).

I mean, I just like a little ambiguity with my closure. The "Everything will be sunshine rainbows from now on!" ending won't ruin a story for me, but it convinces me that it could have been done better. I dunno...At least the fights were balls awesome.

[Kobold-Bard]

Agree with everything that has been said. The finale was a true masterclass in excellence.

The reason for the metal topped airships is simple - bigger explosions.

Just my opinion but sparing the Fire-Lord (which was obviously because it was aimed at children) is made up for by Azula going properly insane and becoming a rampaging, blood-hungry psychopath.

I don't see an 'Air' series happening but I wouldn't mind a one-off special just to tie up the loose ends (Zuko's mother, Toph and Bumi fighting it out for the title of 'Worlds Strongest Earthbender, etc etc).

Didn't expect so much enjoyment from a kids show I found by accident on a Sunday morning.

Avatar in general - :smallbiggrin:
Avatar series three finale - :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

R.I.P Combustion Man. You were truly the finest of all the secondary antagonists.

[Kobold-Bard]

Also does anyone know of any Avatar RPG rules, and would there be a possibility of a PbP game?

Once again, R.I.P Combustion Man.

[WarriorTribble]

She snapped because Mai and Ty Lee betrayed her in The Boiling Rock. Not only were they her two most loyal soldiers, they were her only friends. Her delusions of grandeur kept her from seeing that they were forced to betray her because of her own megalomania and instead her psyche rationalized it as being "if my friends can't be trusted, no one can."From the looks of things Mai betrayed Azula due to love, and then Ty Lee disabled Azula because she didn't want to see the two fighting. I don't think Azula's well established megalomania was the driving force behind the betrayals.

I can't disagree with your rationale for Azula's mental snap, I just feel that her character was more cynical, and should've been prepared even resigned that those close to her would betray her due to some moral obligation. She was familiar with royal history after all, with all it's juicy backstabbing, and misc drama. Personally I figured her personality was going to be closer to Voldemort (basic sociopath) rather than a conflicted teen who decided she couldn't trust anyone if she couldn't even control her closest pets/friends.

[Katasi]

I guess a better term for firebending would be "Energybending," or perhaps "Hotthingsbending." Strong firebenders can create lightning and explosive force, so it could be possible that Azula's flying and Ozai's fireball pummeling could be caused by explosions and flame.

Did everyone forget Combustion Man already? He was a firebender, and he could blow things up.

This goes back to the classical usage of the element fire- it's not just the fire we see or the actual chemical reaction of fire. Fire in the classical term refers to all energy when it is in motion of some sort.


I loved that Ty Lee joined the Kyoshi Warriors. Glad to see that she got a happy ending.

But I still feel that, though fairly justified, the energybending was a cop out. Aang spent about half the movie worrying about the fact that he would have to kill the firelord, and coming to grips with the fact that, yes, he did have to do it. The previous Avatars agreed, Zuko agreed, and Aang finally came to grips with it. The moral clearly set up was that to oppose great evil, one must do morally questionable things- I.E. kill people. Now, me, I feel that that's a perfectly acceptable thing. But evidently it wasn't appropriate for a Y-7 audience, so it got changed, and the moral, for me, got twisted.

I don't think it was a cop out. Aang came to terms with killing Ozai, yes. But that's NOT who Aang is. He was told to be decisive by Roku... he was, and he also stayed true to his own personal ethics as well.


Also does anyone know of any Avatar RPG rules, and would there be a possibility of a PbP game?

Once again, R.I.P Combustion Man.

There has been work on an Avatar D20 homebrew systerm on these boards since at least book two: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67493 As for a PbP game, I might put one together in the coming month or so, I'm not sure yet.

[EvilElitest]

meh, i have mixed feelings. There were some honestly good stuff, and some stuff that just felt, i don't know, bad


Let me say, that looking back on the series, it is an amazingly well done series, and possibly the best kid's series i've ever seen, but in the end, it is still a kid's series, which i find somewhat dissapointing (IE, the perfect ending). Personally, i think that a remade show that was more teen aimed would be very interesting



Anyways, lets go through this


I have to agree with Zuko about them just hanging around, but i do understand why Aang wouldn't want to attack on the day of the comit. I have to say, when i say the genocide part, that was actually a very good idea on the part of the fire nation. The fire nation has always been imperalistic, and the genocide is not only smart from a miltary point of view, but also it fits in with the whole phonix king aspect.

I like Aang's heistation to kill, but really, he has already killed people on the show. The fleet at the south pole, all those people who fall off things during the fights, it seems like a another "I don't want to kill a person who actually has a name". I do have to say howver, i liked the theme through (however out of hundreds of thousands of avatar benders, we don't see a single pacifist? eh) and i think the fight between Aang and the Fire lord was all kinds of awsome, just two questions on that
1) WHy the hell didn't the fire lord expect the avatar state? He knows about it, and i don't think he knew about aangs inablity to summon it
2) I think the perventing bender thing was really really cool just........i wish they made some sort of mention of it before hand (the same way they did with the lion turle, which was very cunning)

also does anybody else find it ironic that a lot of fire nation people died during that attack....anyways


my main beef is azula. Ok, you know what, i expected her to go insane in the end, i predicted it. However, this was badly done, and felt like major spikification, or badass decay. What made azula an awsome magnigicant bastard was taht she was totally confident, unflinchenly evil, cunning, and genre saavy. I felt that if she had to be defeated, fine, no problem, but make it
a) a death like Greed in FMA, where we are somewhat upset to see the character go
b) a cool fight where she is taken out by a group, and kinda over come en mass, but with lots of cool fighting
c) a one on one with the avatar, or zuko, with her making niftty comments like she normally does, however making some sort of mistake, or them being clever and them winning, which happens to a limited extent with katara but i felt off
my main problem is azula


Basically, crazy azula makes the character lose her appeal, i liked her because she was cool, funny, actually intellegent, sarcastic, and collected, and i wanted her to go down with flames of glory, brought down because of her actual existing flaws (arrogent, proud, close minded ect). Personally, i think a fight where she should win, but being such a perfectionist, she refuses to win until she pulls off something particurally special, IE brought down by her own perfectism. For example, if she brages she would take out Zuko's other eye, i think it would be somewhat interesting seeing her lose because she focuses all her energy at one task. Sadly, in the actual version, she is almost pitaful

now crazy Azula, makes sense actually, betryal, pressure, massive stress, but i don't think it was handled right. She was too crazy. She was freaking bonkers, and in the end and totally out of it, which seems to be taking insanty too far. I realize that TV normally doesn't handle instanty logicall, but it felt here mental instablity should be subtle.

Here is what happened

Paranoid- Ok, that fits her character perfectly, but it shouldn't be this absurd paranoida, it just makes her look silly, and makes Zuko's victory look stale

Schizopprenia- Ok, that just seemed like last second spikification, so bad form. Could have worked if it had been a running theme throught the show, with her occasionally talking to her mother or other people at other points in the show, maybe even planning

Just generally bonkers- it feels like major badass decay, and she was way too lony for me to take her fight seriously, which is a pity because it was a very cool fight, and katara's idea was great. It felt like a deus ex macina so she is generally beatable


A few other questions

1) Why did the fire nation not tell its troops in other parts of the world to be wary of the day of black sun? It seems kinda silly
2) What about the fire nation in the other parts of the world. I mean think about it, there were fire nation all of the place, if they are all super powerful, and focused on genocide, think about what might happen
3) wait, if there aren't any more air nomads, then what will happen with the avatar state
4) I missed the very ending, what happened with the villians
5) Why did the fire nation except a new leader so easily, when they are brainwashed and benifiting from the expansion. I"d think Zuko would be assisnated and a new general would take over
from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

3) wait, if there aren't any more air nomads, then what will happen with the avatar stateThe somewhat copout ending gave us a rather interesting solution to the lack of air benders I think. Afterall, if one could take away the ability to bend shouldn't the opposite be possible? Initially I figured the children of Avatars would be genetically part of whatever tribe is the weakest to mantain balance. Well I guess that'll still work, but at least now Aang can restore his trible w/o becoming a playboy. :smallsmile:

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm responding to EE's grievances. Someone get me my meds, please.

First,

I have to say, when i say the genocide part, that was actually a very good idea on the part of the fire nation. The fire nation has always been imperalistic, and the genocide is not only smart from a miltary point of view, but also it fits in with the whole phonix king aspect.
I would comment how horrified I am at this, but given that Ozai a) had the capability to do it easily and b) wouldn't really have any political opponents left to be appalled, you might be right. I still think a literal scorched-earth policy on the territory you're trying to conquer for resources is counterintuitive, though.

Second, I'm with the group who liked Azula's descent into madness. It was well-done and spread over several episodes, and I found it all perfectly plausible. Azula had one central philosophical tenet to her life: fear makes you powerful. When Mai betrayed her, and told her that she didn't fear her as much as she loved Zuko, that was a total inversion of Azula's core beliefs. With that shaken, she lost that basic confidence that made her Magnificent Bastard Azula, and was left with only Psychopathic Monster Azula. Later events like not being able to beat Zuko or getting left to the side by Daddy just pushed her completely over the edge. I found it totally believable and entertainingly pathetic (as in, "having pathos", not the modern usage of the word.) Plus, even after she snapped, she was more scary than sad, which is what matters.

And she did get beaten by her arrogance and misconceptions. She underestimated the lowly Water Tribe "peasant", got overconfident, and was hit with the most awesome nonlethal finisher I've ever seen.

And now, for the questions:


1) Why did the fire nation not tell its troops in other parts of the world to be wary of the day of black sun? It seems kinda sillyBecause Ozai's a massive jerk? More likely, for security purposes: they didn't want the rebels to know that they knew that they knew (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYouKnowIKnow) about the eclipse.

2) What about the fire nation in the other parts of the world. I mean think about it, there were fire nation all of the place, if they are all super powerful, and focused on genocide, think about what might happenI'm guessing that the regular army and occupation forces had no orders to start torching things. They may not even have heard about Ozai's policy change, though that seems unlikely. Still, you're not going to do something like that unless you can tell the war crimes trials that you were only following orders.

3) wait, if there aren't any more air nomads, then what will happen with the avatar statePeople have been wondering about this for a while. They have four lifetimes to resolve it, since it'll have to get around to an Air Nomad reincarnation again for it to matter. My personal pet theory is that the Machinist and friends who were hanging out in the Northern Air Temple will eventually attain the spiritual awakening to become a new Airbending culture (remember all the gliders).

4) I missed the very ending, what happened with the villiansAfter Azula's loss and Ozai's depowering, the only other real thing we see with the villains is Ozai in prison, and Zuko asking him about where his mother is. The Fire Nation as a whole seems to be going along with Fire Lord Zuko's plan for a peace treaty.

5) Why did the fire nation except a new leader so easily, when they are brainwashed and benifiting from the expansion. I"d think Zuko would be assisnated and a new general would take overDivine right/tradition, most likely. Killing the king and usurping his position is all well and good if you're a member of the royal family. A random military nut doing so would lack the popular support of the "rightful" king (and with Ozai humiliated and depowered, not to mention abdicated, and Azula completely insane, Zuko is definitely "the rightful king"). Plus, bear in mind that the Fire Nation just lost both of its major conquests in the Earth Kingdom, had its king, its heir designate, and its airship fleet suffer humiliating defeats, and was being politely told to STFU by a fully-realized Avatar, with the Fire Lord's backing. I'm sure Zuko will have to deal with dissatisfied warmongers in the future, but for now, I can see the populace backing him, and the military biding their time.


On unrelated discussion, Sokka did lose both his weapons, didn't he. Aww... And both of them were lost protecting Toph. D'aww...

I'm sure the non-canon shippers were irritated, but at least the "secondary" couples got a lot of platonic closeness out of the finale.

[Telonius]

The new Fire-Lord (Azula) wasn't exactly making friends in the realm. She banished or threatened everybody, and the palace would have known that. Besides, Zuko had the support of both the Avatar (who actually has made some friends in the Fire Nation) and Iroh, who also has a claim to the throne; as well as all of the rest of the Lotus folks.

[Rogue 7]

I loved Azula going apewire. I concur with Nerdorama's analysis, but on a shallower level, it was great fun to watch this villain I loved to hate, always on top of things and in control, lose it so badly. Karma, as they say, is a *****. And watching Zuko destroy her in that fight (did you notice he barely moved, while Azula was running all around?) was just the icing on the cake.

@ Zaraki- that's not really how it works. At least for me, you suspend physics when expected (mainly for the bending), but expect it to apply everywhere else. Now, I'm willing to make several exceptions for the rule of cool and whatnot, but too much of it can bug me. There's a limit.

@Nevrmore- totally concur on all parts, with the caveat that, given that we saw the finale all at once, the Lion-Turtle felt tacked-on at the end to give Aang an eleventh hour superpower.

[Blayze]

I would comment how horrified I am at this, but given that Ozai a) had the capability to do it easily and b) wouldn't really have any political opponents left to be appalled, you might be right. I still think a literal scorched-earth policy on the territory you're trying to conquer for resources is counterintuitive, though.

I don't think Ozai ever mentioned conquering for resources. Doesn't really matter, though. The Fire Nation isn't exactly going to have been trading with the other countries, so it proves that it's a self-sufficient empire. The literal scorched-earth approach would work extremely well in that regard. Ozai was just out to conquer.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, that's not how imperialism works in real life. But, it's a cartoon, and Ozai's clearly an insane megalomaniac. It works in context.

[EvilElitest]

I'm responding to EE's grievances. Someone get me my meds, please.

Here we go again (cue music)


First,

I would comment how horrified I am at this, but given that Ozai a) had the capability to do it easily and b) wouldn't really have any political opponents left to be appalled, you might be right. I still think a literal scorched-earth policy on the territory you're trying to conquer for resources is counterintuitive, though.

exactly. I mean, he isn't going to win any medals for morality, but considering that the fire nation is the smallest of the tribes (not counting the air tribe of course) and that it has already suffered some major losses and is extremely spread out, destroying half of the earth nation's population would actually be a smart move from a military stand point. I think his main flaws are this

1) He clustered all of his air ships together. Considering this is simply a genocide policy, he would be better off splitting the fleet into smaller groups to cover more ground, as his raw power alone was enough to cause plenty of chaos. he doesn't need more guys running around
2) Where were his ground forces? We have giant fire nation army all over the world, they should be be attacking as well
3) Why was his navy following the air ships? The air ships can handle that area, what are they needed for, they should be attacking one of the poles with renewed power. I mean, its made of water and has already suffered losses.


Second, I'm with the group who liked Azula's descent into madness. It was well-done and spread over several episodes, and I found it all perfectly plausible.
Actually my complaint is that it came out of no where. I could easliy imagine her slip into madness being handled in a cunning and subtle way that doesn't make it seem like a mixed crop out/spikificaiton. Betrayal might cause her to become absurdly paranoid yes, but she was bats crazy at the fight. I mean like freaking loony toons crazy, utterly wacko. I expected her to be frothing at the mouth and barking like a dog while singing "I'm feel pretty, oh so pretty, pretty and witty and gay" with the twins singing back up. Really, it was just absurdly heavy handed and badly done. The way she acts seems to be paranoia and mostly stress, which makes sense considering how much of a perfectionist she is.


Now it is established early on, that dispite being a magnificent bastard, she is suffering from a lot of mental problems. Anti social disorder i think would be on the top of hte list, along the title of sociopath, and possible naccacist. We know that she can't stand being defeated in any way (see vollyball game and early cart wheel). She is a major perfectionist (see first non flash back appearance), utterly cold, and ruthless. Like zuko she suffers from absurd neglect as he is a total and utter sociopath (who reminds me of Twin Lanninister actually)

So her turning insane would fit and make sense, but the way it was handled was simply crude. A better way is to have more hints, not just of her social awkwardness (which we have seen enough) but more so, hints of actual stress over coming her normally logical control. We have not hints of her wavering under the stress, we just see her suddenly snap. A better way would be to show her interaction with her two friends becoming more and more strained as time went on, small clips of her slipping up due to stress and mental scaring (horray) or more shows of her social fears and insecurities. And considering how that betryal apparently mentally scarred her, then fine, we should see are growing reliances upon her friends.

If this was an ongoing theme with azula showing signs of stress boarding insainty prior to the betryal, it would be fine (through not to the extent it was used), but as it was, it was kinda thrown in there. It makes sense, just isn't well handled sadly.


Also she went too insane. Even under stress and parania, she was way too insane, it just was over done. It should have been more subtle. I have a crazy aunt who went nuts over stress, you can show the person being crazy without making it totally bonkers. I mean when Zuko said "Hey, i think there is something off about her" i was thinking "well duh, she looks like an unwashed lunatic, of course she is off Belkar" Personally, i think it should have been handled with more tact




Plus, even after she snapped, she was more scary than sad, which is what matters.
she wasn't scary at all, she was pitiful. When ever she fought the gang earily, she was scary, because we knew she was an actually competent villain who stood a chance, now she was just about as scary as the three dudes in "zuko alone"



And she did get beaten by her arrogance and misconceptions. She underestimated the lowly Water Tribe "peasant", got overconfident, and was hit with the most awesome nonlethal finisher I've ever seen.

I think that was her being bats crazy, and while it was a cool finish, the whole handling of the villain and the fight just seems heavy handed



Because Ozai's a massive jerk? More likely, for security purposes: they didn't want the rebels to know that they knew that they knew (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYouKnowIKnow) about the eclipse.
Possibly, and i can understand taht for some areas, but really, in certain places a day without fire bending could be really really really bad. i mean, that city that was taken, they should be ready for a problem (also why did they take king crazy pants alive anyways? Why not just kill him when he is sleeping)


I'm guessing that the regular army and occupation forces had no orders to start torching things. They may not even have heard about Ozai's policy change, though that seems unlikely. Still, you're not going to do something like that unless you can tell the war crimes trials that you were only following orders.
1) Why didn't he order them that night or at least the commanders? They only have 24 hours, 12 for maximum effectiveness, they ought to be having every dude they can on the job, like they did for the air nomads
2) Um, war crimes? This is pre UN/war crime era, i doubt they would care. It is like the romans actually, they commited genocide a few times, and they didn't really care.


People have been wondering about this for a while. They have four lifetimes to resolve it, since it'll have to get around to an Air Nomad reincarnation again for it to matter. My personal pet theory is that the Machinist and friends who were hanging out in the Northern Air Temple will eventually attain the spiritual awakening to become a new Airbending culture (remember all the gliders).
1) I don't think those dudes can become air nomads, because i think it is some sort of blood line thing, i mean, why can't fire benders learn earth bending if it isn't some sort of heritage thing?
2) Through the Aang play boy might work, he has three generations


After Azula's loss and Ozai's depowering, the only other real thing we see with the villains is Ozai in prison, and Zuko asking him about where his mother is. The Fire Nation as a whole seems to be going along with Fire Lord Zuko's plan for a peace treaty.
Hmm, i wonder how that will go


Divine right/tradition, most likely. Killing the king and usurping his position is all well and good if you're a member of the royal family. A random military nut doing so would lack the popular support of the "rightful" king (and with Ozai humiliated and depowered, not to mention abdicated, and Azula completely insane, Zuko is definitely "the rightful king"). Plus, bear in mind that the Fire Nation just lost both of its major conquests in the Earth Kingdom, had its king, its heir designate, and its airship fleet suffer humiliating defeats, and was being politely told to STFU by a fully-realized Avatar, with the Fire Lord's backing. I'm sure Zuko will have to deal with dissatisfied warmongers in the future, but for now, I can see the populace backing him, and the military biding their time.

I kinda doubt that actually. Think about it
1) We have two more legit heirs alive, so we should have loyalists
2) the fire nation has been brought up for a hundred years to belive in the new policies and the ideals of the Fire lord, so Zuko's new approach (and his coup) will piss a lot of people off
3) The miltary as we have seen are run by totally amoral dudes, so....
4) Zuko has been banished twice, declared a total traitor at least once, has betryed the nation to work with a radical enemy of hte state (avatar, remember 100 years of proganda) twice, and also lacks social skills himself. Why are they loyal to him en mass? If he doesn't control the army, why would the populace put up with him, when the old firelord made sure he was the most well liked dude around
5) also, quite frankly, they benifit from this war. I mean, why would they like being forced to give up the massive terratory they gained and admit defeat when victory was in their grasp


I'm sure the non-canon shippers were irritated, but at least the "secondary" couples got a lot of platonic closeness out of the finale.
I liked Toph's crush


two other questions

1) How was zuko able to get into the capital? I mean, wouldn't the army be ready when they spotted him, i doubt Azula would be wasting time when there was an attakc, they should be swarming him
2) Why did she challenge him at all? She has an army at her command, and she doesn't need to prove anybody wrong when he has been disowned, why bother?
from
EE

[AstralFire]

I think Spiritbending will bother me less if it's used in a less Last-Minute-Superpower fashion again (in other words, not another Avatar State.) Someone's mentioned the idea that it could be used to help bring back Airbenders.

Really, the Avatar State part of the fight was what bothered me the most. First of all, total DeM since it's supposed to be cut off, and the mechanic pretty much exists in the first place just to be an "Eleventh-Hour Superpower" (I like that wording, thank you!) And on another level? Flight... has a lot of cool applications, but that was probably the most boring major battle of the show since it went DBZ-style humongous power instead of the many examples of high power, high skill fights that we see in things like the Agni Kai.

[tyckspoon]

Really, the Avatar State part of the fight was what bothered me the most. First of all, total DeM since it's supposed to be cut off, and the mechanic pretty much exists in the first place just to be an "Eleventh-Hour Superpower" (I like that wording, thank you!)

FWIW, I think the Avatar State can probably be assigned to the lion-turtle's intervention too; it may have corrected Aang's burnt chakra when it introduced him to Spiritbending. Then the actual activation of it was perfectly in line with the rest of the show. Aang was getting his butt whipped.. so Avatar State activates to keep him alive.

Changes.. I would have toned down the visual metaphor on the Aang-bends-Ozai scene. I'm fine with what happened, I just found the display excessive. And taken some of the time from Aang and Ozai's fight to put in a few more scenes of the White Lotus cleansing Ba Sing Se, because they're awesome.

[GryffonDurime]

Oh sweet Buddha, why did i become an English major?

...Anyway, I'd just like to examine on of the major claims, namely "the four Avatars told Aang to kill Ozai."

They didn't. They were intentionally vague, and in essence ultimately told Aang nothing more than that he had to find a way to stop Ozai--the obvious (and, perhaps to them, only) choice may have been to kill the Firelord, but Aang found another way that leveraged a great and terrible risk against a commiserate benefit. The Lion Turtle himself was seemingly an unknown, at least to Roku. By "bending another's energy," Aang risked his own destruction to find a way to end the Firelord's threat without violating his own spirituality.

Likewise, here's another question: did the hit to the spine unlock the Avatar State, or was it just the jarring Aang needed to realize that it was already unblocked? The Lion Turtle clearly did some sort of Spiritbending to Aang, so I think it's a bit myopic to assume that that hit cleared everything up.

[Nerd-o-rama]

EE: Oy, long post.

Anyway, the inherent problems in Ozai's burnination strategy can probably be explained by overconfidence and wanting to make a show of things. I'm not sure why he didn't order the regular army to attack as well as his air force, though. Perhaps he was planning to have the zeppelin force burn a giant cursive "Ozai" signature into the Earth Kingdom and didn't want other forces messing up his art? (Note: this is a joke.)

On Azula, I think it's just a matter of opinion on how gradually and effectively it was presented. Remember, it might seem rushed because we saw all the episodes starting with The Boiling Rock right at once (probably). Plus most of that section of your post is illegible.

And back to the questionnaire!

Possibly, and i can understand taht for some areas, but really, in certain places a day without fire bending could be really really really bad. i mean, that city that was taken, they should be ready for a problem (also why did they take king crazy pants alive anyways? Why not just kill him when he is sleeping)
It was a calculated risk, probably taken because Ozai knew that the enemy would be concentrating on an assault on his capital. The Earth Kingdom army was effectively leaderless, so he didn't fear provincial rebellion. As for keeping Bumi alive...um, kid's show? Plus, they thought they had a perfect anti-Earthbender countermeasure for him (bad guys are allowed to make mistakes, you know).

1) Why didn't he order them that night or at least the commanders? They only have 24 hours, 12 for maximum effectiveness, they ought to be having every dude they can on the job, like they did for the air nomads
2) Um, war crimes? This is pre UN/war crime era, i doubt they would care. It is like the romans actually, they commited genocide a few times, and they didn't really care.I addressed the first part above, and as for the second, I didn't mean literally. I meant that people aren't capable of committing genocide unless they're a) completely insane, or b) they have a higher authority to shift the responsibility to. It's not a matter of being prosecuted, it's a matter of self-justification. I could go into the whole long psychological spiel on why this is and on why blaming authority is such an effective means of justification, but can you just take my word for it?

1) I don't think those dudes can become air nomads, because i think it is some sort of blood line thing, i mean, why can't fire benders learn earth bending if it isn't some sort of heritage thing?
2) Through the Aang play boy might work, he has three generationsWell, bending disciplines are confirmed as being a spritual/cultural thing rather than strictly genetic. You can only ever learn to bend one element unless you're the Avatar, but the nation of your birth doesn't technically define which one you can learn. This was in an interview with the creators somewhere.

However, I also approve of your second theory there.

Hmm, i wonder how that will go Probably not very well, but Fire Lord Zuko's friends with pretty much all of the physically most powerful people on the planet. I think he can handle things.

I kinda doubt that actually. Think about it
1) We have two more legit heirs alive, so we should have loyalists
2) the fire nation has been brought up for a hundred years to belive in the new policies and the ideals of the Fire lord, so Zuko's new approach (and his coup) will piss a lot of people off
3) The miltary as we have seen are run by totally amoral dudes, so....
4) Zuko has been banished twice, declared a total traitor at least once, has betryed the nation to work with a radical enemy of hte state (avatar, remember 100 years of proganda) twice, and also lacks social skills himself. Why are they loyal to him en mass? If he doesn't control the army, why would the populace put up with him, when the old firelord made sure he was the most well liked dude around
5) also, quite frankly, they benifit from this war. I mean, why would they like being forced to give up the massive terratory they gained and admit defeat when victory was in their grasp1) Azula's batspoon loco and was defeated in a semi-legal duel for the position. Iroh's backing Zuko. Ozai himself abdicated Fire Lordship and was subsequently beaten like a redheaded stepchild and stripped of his bending.
2) Yes, you're right. There will probably be rebellion when the flush of "hey, neat, new king!" enthusiasm wears off. However, there's also the matter that the people were indoctrinated to be fanatically loyal to the position of Fire Lord, rather than a particular individual.
3) And segments of the military will be leading the inevitable counter-revolution.
4) No one's willing to openly defy someone who is a) the Fire Lord, b) personally super-powerful, and c) allied with the rest of the most powerful Benders in the world, including the Avatar. Yet. You're not going to have a popular revolution against a king right off the bat, not when he's got that kind of backing. Like I said in the previous two points, though, someone is plotting to bring back the old ways, I agree. It's just not immediate and obvious resistance.
5) I think I've explained this pretty well right now. Zuko's position is strong enough that there's not immediate violent outcry, but there will be repercussions. I do think I should point out that the majority of the populace, i.e. the peasantry, was not benefiting from the war, as it just means they get conscripted and killed, or watch their standard of living plummet while all national resources are diverted to the war effort for a century. So they would, at least, nominally support peace once they got over the propaganda.

1) How was zuko able to get into the capital? I mean, wouldn't the army be ready when they spotted him, i doubt Azula would be wasting time when there was an attakc, they should be swarming him
2) Why did she challenge him at all? She has an army at her command, and she doesn't need to prove anybody wrong when he has been disowned, why bother?
1) Good question. Some of the camouflage techniques that were used earlier in the series, maybe (bending a cloud around Appa)? What I really want to know is how they got there so fast...everyone got ridiculous plot-based speed boosts in the finale, I guess, or the planet just became ridiculously small.
2) Frankly, at that point, Zuko could have taken the army. Remember that Azula had already dismissed the Dai Li and the Imperial Firebenders. All that were left were mooks who wouldn't stand a chance against comet-empowered Firebending. Azula challenged him solely as a divide-and-conquer strategy, since at that point, no one else was around that could fight on her, Zuko's, and Katara's levels.

[Gorbash]

1) How was zuko able to get into the capital? I mean, wouldn't the army be ready when they spotted him, i doubt Azula would be wasting time when there was an attakc, they should be swarming him
2) Why did she challenge him at all? She has an army at her command, and she doesn't need to prove anybody wrong when he has been disowned, why bother?

1) It isn't that important, in the first place, and I believe someone mentioned that she fired all of her servants, could be the guards too, and Zuko aka the Blue Spirit *is* a stealthy guy, after all.

2) Like you said, she's crazy.

[puppyavenger]

Actually, the airships never went down. Something that really made it wierd for me to watch.

how about when he dropped the heavy-amour wearing crew?

[namo]

Loved it, loved it, loved it. I was actually in withdrawal after watching it - because the awesome had just washed away my neurons. :smallwink:

I really liked all the final fights, the crown going to the Agni Kai for the blue-red ballet and the softer music.

None of the so-called cop-outs bothered me

[Nerd-o-rama]

how about when he dropped the heavy-amour wearing crew?They appeared to be floating just fine to me. I have no idea how, but the soldiers themselves didn't seem terribly concerned.

[Skyrocket]

My only major letdown was that Aang's lesson from the guru never really cam to a head. He never had to let go of Katara. Instead the lion-turtle or the rock knocked loose the final barrier to him having full control of the Avatar State. :smallyuk:

[tyckspoon]

My only major letdown was that Aang's lesson from the guru never really cam to a head. He never had to let go of Katara. Instead the lion-turtle or the rock knocked loose the final barrier to him having full control of the Avatar State. :smallyuk:

Kweh? I'm pretty sure he managed that last psychological barrier in season 2 (or.. might have been early in 3), when they were fighting Azula underground. He raised a crystal chrysalis to meditate in and rose out in his first voluntary activation of the Avatar State.. and then Azula shot him in the back. His problem from there was that Azula had fried one of his chakras and wrecked the clear energy flow he needed to use the State properly.

[Telonius]

Ozai's burnination strategy

During that scene, my wife busted out with, "Ozai, the Burninator!"

Yeah, I lucked out. :smallcool:

[tyckspoon]

~ Burnin-nating the countryside! Burnin-nating the peasants!~

Yeah. You ain't the only ones.

[EvilElitest]

EE: Oy, long post.

Anyway, the inherent problems in Ozai's burnination strategy can probably be explained by overconfidence and wanting to make a show of things. I'm not sure why he didn't order the regular army to attack as well as his air force, though. Perhaps he was planning to have the zeppelin force burn a giant cursive "Ozai" signature into the Earth Kingdom and didn't want other forces messing up his art? (Note: this is a joke.)

Meh, the big issue is that Ozai, while always psychotic, was never stupid, hence my complaint. Spelling his name into the nation seems actually a logical reason for his stupidity. The army and naval forces.



On Azula, I think it's just a matter of opinion on how gradually and effectively it was presented. Remember, it might seem rushed because we saw all the episodes starting with The Boiling Rock right at once (probably). Plus most of that section of your post is illegible.

1) My main point is that it was too heavy handled
2) here is my point again, edited for spelling (according to spell check at least)


Actually my complaint is that it came out of no where. I could easily imagine her slip into madness being handled in a cunning and subtle way that doesn't make it seem like a mixed crop out/spikificaiton. Betrayal might cause her to become absurdly paranoid yes, but she was bats crazy at the fight. I mean like freaking loony toons crazy, utterly wacko. I expected her to be frothing at the mouth and barking like a dog while singing "I'm feel pretty, oh so pretty, pretty and witty and gay" with the twins singing back up. Really, it was just absurdly heavy handed and badly done. The way she acts seems to be paranoia and mostly stress, which makes sense considering how much of a perfectionist she is.


Now it is established early on, that despite being a magnificent bastard, she is suffering from a lot of mental problems. Anti social disorder i think would be on the top of the list, along the title of sociopath, and possible narcissist. We know that she can't stand being defeated in any way (see volleyball game and early cart wheel). She is a major perfectionist (see first non flash back appearance), utterly cold, and ruthless. Like zuko she suffers from absurd neglect as he is a total and utter sociopath (who reminds me of Twin Lanninister actually)

So her turning insane would fit and make sense, but the way it was handled was simply crude. A better way is to have more hints, not just of her social awkwardness (which we have seen enough) but more so, hints of actual stress over coming her normally logical control. We have not hints of her wavering under the stress, we just see her suddenly snap. A better way would be to show her interaction with her two friends becoming more and more strained as time went on, small clips of her slipping up due to stress and mental scaring (horary) or more shows of her social fears and insecurities. And considering how that betrayal apparently mentally scarred her, then fine, we should see are growing reliance upon her friends.

If this was an ongoing theme with azula showing signs of stress boarding insanity prior to the betrayal, it would be fine (through not to the extent it was used), but as it was, it was kind of thrown in there. It makes sense, just isn't well handled sadly.


Also she went too insane. Even under stress and paranoia, she was way too insane, it just was over done. It should have been more subtle. I have a crazy aunt who went nuts over stress, you can show the person being crazy without making it totally bonkers. I mean when Zuko said "Hey, i think there is something off about her" i was thinking "well duh, she looks like an unwashed lunatic, of course she is off Belkar" Personally, i think it should have been handled with more tact




It was a calculated risk, probably taken because Ozai knew that the enemy would be concentrating on an assault on his capital. The Earth Kingdom army was effectively leaderless, so he didn't fear provincial rebellion. As for keeping Bumi alive...um, kid's show? Plus, they thought they had a perfect anti-Earthbender countermeasure for him (bad guys are allowed to make mistakes, you know).
1) Possible, i can understand generally, but rebel forces all over the world will be causing chaos in those twelve hours. True, that is a limited time frame, but still, he should have some congincy plans for problems
2) Fair enough with Brumi (through i honestly just hate that character, i mean really, why did he surrender in the first place)
3) meh, i suppose



I addressed the first part above, and as for the second, I didn't mean literally. I meant that people aren't capable of committing genocide unless they're a) completely insane, or b) they have a higher authority to shift the responsibility to. It's not a matter of being prosecuted, it's a matter of self-justification. I could go into the whole long psychological spiel on why this is and on why blaming authority is such an effective means of justification, but can you just take my word for it?
Really? I mean, i look at history, like Rome and imperialism of the west, and i don't think acts of complete brutality and barbarism are that rare. Through i admit, without orders i find it unlikely the fire nations would happen to come up with the same idea as their leader (see, why the hell he didn't order them to attack) but with these power high fire nation benders with super powers, i expected they'd do something



Well, bending disciplines are confirmed as being a spritual/cultural thing rather than strictly genetic. You can only ever learn to bend one element unless you're the Avatar, but the nation of your birth doesn't technically define which one you can learn. This was in an interview with the creators somewhere.
really?


However, I also approve of your second theory there.
yeah, through we wouldn't talk about that on a kid's show.

Personally, i imagine there are some other benders out there of hte air tribe


Probably not very well, but Fire Lord Zuko's friends with pretty much all of the physically most powerful people on the planet. I think he can handle things.
Actually, i doubt he can hold the nation at all. even with his friends
The avatar is only one dude, and he can't be every where. He has no fire nation support to speak off, just an exiled uncle, a single swordsmen, and a deserter, along with one small crew and a single noble family. The earth king is gone, the other king is almost dead of old age, the earth tribe, dispite the good guys best efforts, has almost been wiped off the map, suffering absurd losses, both poles are absurdly damaged in terms of man power. the two enemy nations are weakened and faulty, with the fire nation only still powerful nation, and Zuko's control faulty


1) Azula's batspoon loco and was defeated in a semi-legal duel for the position. Iroh's backing Zuko. Ozai himself abdicated Fire Lordship and was subsequently beaten like a redheaded stepchild and stripped of his bending.
And zuko and his uncle were disowned, and once azula fell, i find it doubtful that hte troops in the city would simply let him get away with it. Wouldn't they try to save their lord's heir?


2) Yes, you're right. There will probably be rebellion when the flush of "hey, neat, new king!" enthusiasm wears off. However, there's also the matter that the people were indoctrinated to be fanatically loyal to the position of Fire Lord, rather than a particular individual.
Alright, fair enough. I think the people were taught that they are nationally superior to the other people and to enjoy expansionist and imperalistic ways of life


3) And segments of the military will be leading the inevitable counter-revolution.
fair enough, through why they would even let Zuko have a brief control is beyond me, maybe just so they can take stock of the situation


4) No one's willing to openly defy someone who is a) the Fire Lord, b) personally super-powerful, and c) allied with the rest of the most powerful Benders in the world, including the Avatar. Yet. You're not going to have a popular revolution against a king right off the bat, not when he's got that kind of backing. Like I said in the previous two points, though, someone is plotting to bring back the old ways, I agree. It's just not immediate and obvious resistance.
A) through coup
b) Is zuko that powerful? he is good, but i don't think he is absurdly powerful, day of the comite aside.
C) who can't control and entire nation however.
But yeah, your right


5) I think I've explained this pretty well right now. Zuko's position is strong enough that there's not immediate violent outcry, but there will be repercussions. I do think I should point out that the majority of the populace, i.e. the peasantry, was not benefiting from the war, as it just means they get conscripted and killed, or watch their standard of living plummet while all national resources are diverted to the war effort for a century. So they would, at least, nominally support peace once they got over the propaganda.


The fire nation was doing fine under the conquest, i mean war problems aside, they have new lands, resources, riches, power, slaves, advanced tect ect.




1) Good question. Some of the camouflage techniques that were used earlier in the series, maybe (bending a cloud around Appa)? What I really want to know is how they got there so fast...everyone got ridiculous plot-based speed boosts in the finale, I guess, or the planet just became ridiculously small.
2) Frankly, at that point, Zuko could have taken the army. Remember that Azula had already dismissed the Dai Li and the Imperial Firebenders. All that were left were mooks who wouldn't stand a chance against comet-empowered Firebending. Azula challenged him solely as a divide-and-conquer strategy, since at that point, no one else was around that could fight on her, Zuko's, and Katara's levels.

1) Yeah, people are crossing the entire world in second, i mean from Ba sing se to the fire nation capitial?
2) I don't think so. Even if azula got ride of the imperial firebenders and the Dai Li, they are still around in the city, and when they show up, they could come out to help. Also, there were half a dozen fire benders right next to her, and i imagine there is an army in the capital. I doubt two benders could take on an entire city, particrually when the fire benders in the city are far more powerful than normal.

from
EE
edit
Oh yeah, the Dai Li held the earth kingdom capitial during the day of black sun, forgot that

[WarriorTribble]

My only major letdown was that Aang's lesson from the guru never really cam to a head. He never had to let go of Katara. Instead the lion-turtle or the rock knocked loose the final barrier to him having full control of the Avatar State. :smallyuk:That one always confused me. Roku also ended up marrying someone. If what the guru said is true, his was a loveless marriage... Perhaps Roku just wanted to bone her? Lets not forget how the water bending avatar also had a girl friend course it’s possible he never mastered the Avatar State.

[Person_Man]

American children's cartoons can't (or won't) kill. I was bitter about this from ages 13-29, when I felt that it would be more realistic, interesting, and cool if violence led to its natural consequence. But now that I'm 30 and have young nieces and nephews and godchildren who watch cartoons, I'm happy that children's cartoons don't kill unless they're played after 8pm-ish on sci-fi or cartoon network. Death is a serious subject, best explained carefully during a teachable moment, not capriciously whenever GI Joe decides to shoot down a Cobra heliviper.

Knowing that they had to maintain the censorship in order protect their youthful audience, but wanting to write a serious ending for their adult audience, the writers did the best job that was humanly possible. They discussed death and treated it seriously, but allowed Aang to use perseverance/spirit powers to remove Ozai's bending instead of killing him. They created an interesting and realistic rationale (Aang's pacifism) to support arbitrary rules (violence is ok, as long as no one gets killed), and I think they did a great job at turning it into the decisive plot point of the series.

My only real critique is that Momo followed Aang for his Lion Turtle spirit quest, even though the Lion Turtle was not on the same realm of existence and/or took Aang off the primary plane of existance, and that during every previous spirit quests Aang just left his body behind. They could have written it in such a way that it was consistent with previous series tropes. Doing it in some new way was just confusing.

Also, it was physically difficult to hear and understand the Lion Turtle - I had to rewind it and watch it again on mute (gods bless DVR) to get what he was saying. Another mild critique is that they took away Sokka's space sword for no particular reason, and that they ended up doing the final kiss after inexplicably moving to the Earth Kingdom so that they can drink tea and goof off, when they could have easily done it in the Fire Kingdom after Zuko's speech.

As a side note I think that Aang pretty much had to end up with someone. In 4 generations, the Avatar will reincarnate into another Air Bender, and Aang is the last air bender. Thus he needs to have kids and he needs to train them as air benders, or the Avatar will have no one to reincarnate into.

So, any speculation on the upcoming movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0938283/)? Hopefully, M. Night Shyama-lana-ding-dong won't reboot everything and then ruin the ending with yet another twist that makes no sense.

[WarriorTribble]

Death is a serious subject, best explained carefully during a teachable moment, not capriciously whenever GI Joe decides to shoot down a Cobra heliviper.Well that's true, but as someone who grew up with the darker Japanese cartoons I do think they dealt with death in a serious albeit simplistic manner. Usually it came down to; bad guys kill capriciously, good guys only kill in self defense and usually take almost suicidal lengths to prevent death. I can't think of many cartoons in general that deviated from this formula, even those that are aimed for teen audiences.

[AstralFire]

That one always confused me. Roku also ended up marrying someone. If what the guru said is true, his was a loveless marriage... Perhaps Roku just wanted to bone her? Lets not forget how the water bending avatar also had a girl friend course it’s possible he never mastered the Avatar State.

The Avatar State isn't something fully realized Avatars depend on. Also, per Hindu philosophy (which gives us Guru Pathik), you can love someone and be detached from them. It's a matter of enjoying them but not wanting them. See: Siva.

[Telonius]

Infamous example of the "no deaths policy" was, of course, Duke going into a coma in the GI Joe movie. From what I remember, he was originally scheduled to die. But after the outcry over Optimus Prime's apparent demise in the Transformers movie, they made the decision to revive him. And they introduce the BAT's (Battle Android Troopers) just so they could finally show an enemy being killed, instead of parachuting out as their plane/tank/whatever was blown to smitherenes.

Regarding the movie, I think the episode just prior to Sozin's Comet will provide Shymalan with some motivation. "That was ... not a good movie. But at least the effects were good."

[WarriorTribble]

The Avatar State isn't something fully realized Avatars depend on. Also, per Hindu philosophy (which gives us Guru Pathik), you can love someone and be detached from them. It's a matter of enjoying them but not wanting them. See: Siva.Hmm... so how does Hindu philosophy define love? Enjoying someone's company, but having zero desire for them sounds like a casual friendship at best. If by Siva you mean Shiva, you'll need to be a bit more specific. There's alot of data on that deity.

[AstralFire]

Hmm... so how does Hindu philosophy define love? Enjoying someone's company, but having zero desire for them sounds like a casual friendship at best. If by Siva you mean Shiva, you'll need to be a bit more specific. There's alot of data on that deity.

Siva's considered the ultimate example of being detached, yet also the ultimate lover (in both senses of the word.)

[EvilElitest]

two points

1) i'm worried about the movie. It could be great, but i have bad experiences with movies based off shows
2) I personally think that killing is a good thing in shows, because it makes the gravity of people's actions clear, and it is realistic. one of the reasons why i think song of fire and ice is far better than say, eragon (writing, plot, characters, events, story, style, design, world, ect) is taht in Martin's work, the actions of people actually makes a big difference. Defeating the enemy may be a victory, but things don't work out perfectly and people die and get hurt. It feels too picture perfect, but it is a kids show
from
EE

[Person_Man]

The Avatar State isn't something fully realized Avatars depend on. Also, per Hindu philosophy (which gives us Guru Pathik), you can love someone and be detached from them. It's a matter of enjoying them but not wanting them. See: Siva.

Agreed. Ghandi + bending = Aang. Put another way, part of life is accepting death. You can love someone, but you must accept that all love is ephemeral. In order to achieve inner peace, you must fully realize that everything anyone gains in life will be lost in death. It does not prevent food from being delicious or love from being passionate - but it does preclude you from being motivated by it.

A non-Eastern way of looking at it is that no one is married in heaven. God wants us to love each other, but eventually we ascend/are reborn onto a higher plane of existence, where everyone loves everyone to the degree that you could love a spouse.

[EvilElitest]

i think Aang isn't quite ghandi, who was strongly political and thoughtful in terms of writing. Just because they are both pacifists doesn't make them the same
from
EE

[kamikasei]

That was absolutely fantastic.

I only got in to the show a few weeks ago, having seen it praised to the skies on here for ages. The praise was justified. I'm so glad I didn't have to wait for the finale like longer-term fans - the couple of days to acquire and find time to watch it were torture enough.

(Some of the below has been said already.)

On the subject of how bad Ozai really was: remember that his grandfather, in whose footsteps he was quite happily following, had already committed genocide against one of the nations just because they would eventually threaten him (in fact, just because one would eventually threaten him). The rest of the world was perfectly justified in regarding conquest by the Fire Nation as worse than just occupation - it's the threat of extinction on a whim of thoroughly evil people.

On the burning: I agree with EE that, from the point of view of an evil, imperialist sociopath, exterminating an entire race rather than dealing with the effort of occupying them makes sense. I agree with Nerd-o-rama that literally setting fire to the land you want to resettle with your own people is stupid.

Boomerang didn't come back! But I'm sure Sokka'll find them both.


But I still feel that, though fairly justified, the energybending was a cop out. Aang spent about half the movie worrying about the fact that he would have to kill the firelord, and coming to grips with the fact that, yes, he did have to do it. The previous Avatars agreed, Zuko agreed, and Aang finally came to grips with it. The moral clearly set up was that to oppose great evil, one must do morally questionable things- I.E. kill people. Now, me, I feel that that's a perfectly acceptable thing. But evidently it wasn't appropriate for a Y-7 audience, so it got changed, and the moral, for me, got twisted.

I don't think that's true. None of the avatars actually told Aang to kill: they said to be decisive, to take action, etc. He was preoccupied with the prospect of killing Ozai, so that's what he heard. He hadn't resolved the conflict before he met the lion turtle and learned about spirit bending, and he went in to the fight with the Firelord knowing what he'd have to do. At least, that's how I saw it.


Not quite. Here's an official version, straight from the creators themselves (actually, either that or TVTropes is full of hateful LIES!)

This is what I had assumed myself. After all, when last we see Azulon he's delivering a very emphatic "no" to Ozai's proposal to usurp Iroh.

I was disappointed that Katara's trick with the chain didn't end up redirecting Azula's lightning so that she fried herself. You show us a store of water and a metal chain while there's a crazed electricity-wielder on the loose, what do you expect us to expect? Even if she'd only knocked herself out (easily enough explained as the power being diminished by the interference) it would have been delightfully karmic.

[tyckspoon]

Personally I'm worried about the movie because I don't really trust Shyamalan. He's done good work; there's potential for an excellent movie. But I'm afraid that he'll end up trying to make it one of his 'great work of art' message movies and wreck the charm of Avatar for his own ends.. also, Airbending will be kind of hard to depict well in live-action. 'tho I've seen some reasonable 'shimmer'/distorted air effects in other stuff that would serve.

Re: Zuko's power and position.
I don't think Zuko is the most powerful Firebender in the world (keeping in mind that it's hard to directly judge power in Avatar; about the best we can say is that Zuko's fire was able to contain and disperse Azula's, which doesn't say a lot about how he compares to anybody else.) But he is probably stronger than anybody who might challenge him for the throne- he has the support of those who may be more powerful, like Aang or the firebending members of the White Lotus. So he's fairly secure if anybody wants to do it the honorable way and duel him for the title.

For larger or more secret actions- like a military coup or other conspiracy- Zuko has both the official support of the Water and Earth nations and the secret support of the White Lotus group. Water and Earth have been damaged, yes, but they're hardly impotent. Even during subjugation by the Fire Nation they were able to organize a strike force capable of attacking the Fire Nation capital. If a militaristic ruler should happen to overthrow Zuko and try to re-establish the old order, you can bet organized and united Earth and Water nation forces will be there to stop it. With an Avatar at their backs.. keep in mind the Fire Nation's ascendancy happened during an era where there was no Avatar to interfere, so they could use their more militarized society to overcome more peaceful people. Now there's an Avatar *and* those other societies are better at war; it's not likely the Fire Nation could get very far again. The next chance for any such action to be very successful is going to have to wait for the next Avatar incarnation, when they can make a move while the new Avatar is still young and untrained.

Which gives Zuko, Aang, and their allies most of a lifetime to change people's attitudes. Call it 50 years. 50 years where the official propaganda machine of the Fire Nation can be aimed at promoting peaceful coexistence in the world. 50 years for Aang to be an emissary of balance. 50 years for the personally powerful and influential members of the White Lotus to seed new ideas in their communities (well, ok, most of them will probably be dead before 50 years.) 50 years on there may be a new raw Avatar who could leave a chance for imperialism to move.. but 50 years on the Fire Nation culture that had those dreams of empire and superiority could be gone entirely.

[EvilElitest]

Re: Zuko's power and position.
I don't think Zuko is the most powerful Firebender in the world (keeping in mind that it's hard to directly judge power in Avatar; about the best we can say is that Zuko's fire was able to contain and disperse Azula's, which doesn't say a lot about how he compares to anybody else.) But he is probably stronger than anybody who might challenge him for the throne- he has the support of those who may be more powerful, like Aang or the firebending members of the White Lotus. So he's fairly secure if anybody wants to do it the honorable way and duel him for the title.

1) He is powerful, but i don't know if he could take a full force of fire benders, let along half a dozen palace fire benders with azula at the same time
2) Wouldn't they assassinate him


For larger or more secret actions- like a military coup or other conspiracy- Zuko has both the official support of the Water and Earth nations and the secret support of the White Lotus group. Water and Earth have been damaged, yes, but they're hardly impotent.
Which doesn't mean much, because one is crippled, the other is almost non existent


Even during subjugation by the Fire Nation they were able to organize a strike force capable of attacking the Fire Nation capital.
they let that happen


If a militaristic ruler should happen to overthrow Zuko and try to re-establish the old order, you can bet organized and united Earth and Water nation forces will be there to stop it. With an Avatar at their backs..
the water nation and the earth nation aren't in a good state, and even after that last defeat, the fire nation still has the greatest army of them all. The avatar is a threat, but he is one guy


keep in mind the Fire Nation's ascendancy happened during an era where there was no Avatar to interfere, so they could use their more militarized society to overcome more peaceful people. Now there's an Avatar *and* those other societies are better at war; it's not likely the Fire Nation could get very far again. The next chance for any such action to be very successful is going to have to wait for the next Avatar incarnation, when they can make a move while the new Avatar is still young and untrained.

The other nations are crippled, the fire nation is still the most powerful, and hte other societys, while war like, have already been occupied and servely weakened. The fire nation really only lost land.

Avatar is a threat, but he isn't perfect, and if the fire nation did an all out attack, he couldn't stop them alone


The fire nation is the most powerful of all the nations, and Zuko simply can't reinforce his new ideas, which are contrary to those of the fire nation at current


Remember, as long as Ozai and Azula are alive, his rein is threatened. If he allows Azula to marry and have kids (considering the type of person zuko is i don't doubt he'd cut his sister some slack) even longer. And the just on another note, what happened to the dai li? They could still support Azula, or at least support a neutral earth kingdom force
from
EE
from
EE

[endoperez]

My complaint is that it came out of nowhere. Betrayal might cause her to become absurdly paranoid, but she was bats crazy at the fight. I expected her to be frothing at the mouth and barking like a dog while singing "I feel pretty".

It was established that despite being a magnificent bastard, she is suffering from a lot of mental problems. She can't stand being defeated in any way (see volleyball game and early cart wheel). Her turning insane would fit and make sense, it just isn't handled well. If this was an ongoing theme with Azula showing signs of stress boarding insanity prior to the betrayal, it would be fine. We just see her suddenly snap.

Also she went too insane. It should have been more subtle. My aunt went nuts over stress, you can show the person being crazy without making it totally bonkers. Personally, i think it should have been handled with more tact.

You have lots of things to say. PLEASE, edit it. Cut it in half. Something, anything. You are everywhere in these forums, and I'd like to read your posts, but they're an unorganized mess and that's really discouraging. I shortened the quoted part to make it easier for others to follow this discussion.
EDIT: In hindsight, my own post is just as verbose as the quoted part originally was. :( Feel free to point and laugh.


As you said, it's been established that Azula isn't an example of mental health. Several of her problems (perfectionism, something bordering on sadism) were apparent before she was betrayed by her friends. I think the betrayal was the last straw and let her problems catch up with her.
Here's the end of Boiling Rock, and the talk the three girls had:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d-8XNAk4_wU
Azula: "Why did you do it?"
Mai: "I love Zuko more than I fear you."
Azula "You should have feared me more!"
Ty Lee attacks Azula

Before that, she was in control, and controlled others through fear. After that, she couldn't trust her control, and thus she couldn't trust anyone at all. That's what started her paranoia, and it all escalated from there.

When I watched Southern Raiders, I kept thinking that the animators forgot to remove her grin or something, because she just kept smiling throughout her little duel and even when Zuko escaped. And then in the finale, when she wasn't taken to burninate the world, she argued more like a normal girl than Azula. She wasn't herself after Boiling Rock for even a single scene, IMO; never truly in control.

An extra scene in Southern Raiders could have helped a lot, but it worked well enough for me. I didn't really connect it to the end of Boiling Rock before I read about that on the internet, and I didn't catch what was happening in Southern Raiders even though I noticed something was off, but all in all I think it was well done.

They went intentionally overboard with Azula's madness. I think it fit her. She was never slightly anything. It was also a powerful image, and many people found themselves pitying her. That's one of the worst fates they could show in a kids' cartoon.

From what I read of your posts, you expected more than even a good kids' show can give. I fully agree with PersonMan's post above - the show had limits in what it could and couldn't do, but they got around them by e.g. making Aang choose between something they couldn't have showed him doing, and what he really did. That's really big part of why I enjoyed the finale as much as I did, looking at all the things they could do even with all these limits they had. It wasn't perfect, but it was very good,

[AstralFire]

Personally I'm worried about the movie because I don't really trust Shyamalan. He's done good work; there's potential for an excellent movie. But I'm afraid that he'll end up trying to make it one of his 'great work of art' message movies and wreck the charm of Avatar for his own ends.. also, Airbending will be kind of hard to depict well in live-action. 'tho I've seen some reasonable 'shimmer'/distorted air effects in other stuff that would serve.

This, and I'm opposed to the premise that everything is better in live-action. Some things just look better animated, and some things just look better acted.


Re: Zuko's power and position.
I don't think Zuko is the most powerful Firebender in the world (keeping in mind that it's hard to directly judge power in Avatar; about the best we can say is that Zuko's fire was able to contain and disperse Azula's, which doesn't say a lot about how he compares to anybody else.) But he is probably stronger than anybody who might challenge him for the throne- he has the support of those who may be more powerful, like Aang or the firebending members of the White Lotus. So he's fairly secure if anybody wants to do it the honorable way and duel him for the title.

I would hazard a guess that Zuko is probably the second most dangerous firebender alive right now, with Iroh ahead of him. Jeong-Jeong we don't really have a bead on, but while Azula's more raw powerful, Zuko was fighting on even terms with her ever since The Boiling Rock, and the Season 2 finale proved they were on relatively equal level at that point.

[GryffonDurime]

Interesting to note in terms of how long Aang will be around...Kyoshi was born four hundred years ago. Assuming that she lived to be a generous 100 years old, and Roku lived to be a hundred, and Aang is currently sitting around 113 with all the years spent in the Iceburg...we've still got a good 97 years floating around. I'd say it's quite possible that Avatars (or even others in the Avatar world, we've never gotten conclusive ages or life expectancies) can live to be around 150. That's, at least, the only way I've ever found to explain the timeline.

Edit: Additionally, consider that Bumi is 112 or older, completely naturally.

[Katasi]

American children's cartoons can't (or won't) kill. I was bitter about this from ages 13-29, when I felt that it would be more realistic, interesting, and cool if violence led to its natural consequence. But now that I'm 30 and have young nieces and nephews and godchildren who watch cartoons, I'm happy that children's cartoons don't kill unless they're played after 8pm-ish on sci-fi or cartoon network. Death is a serious subject, best explained carefully during a teachable moment, not capriciously whenever GI Joe decides to shoot down a Cobra heliviper.

Knowing that they had to maintain the censorship in order protect their youthful audience, but wanting to write a serious ending for their adult audience, the writers did the best job that was humanly possible. They discussed death and treated it seriously, but allowed Aang to use perseverance/spirit powers to remove Ozai's bending instead of killing him. They created an interesting and realistic rationale (Aang's pacifism) to support arbitrary rules (violence is ok, as long as no one gets killed), and I think they did a great job at turning it into the decisive plot point of the series.

My only real critique is that Momo followed Aang for his Lion Turtle spirit quest, even though the Lion Turtle was not on the same realm of existence and/or took Aang off the primary plane of existance, and that during every previous spirit quests Aang just left his body behind. They could have written it in such a way that it was consistent with previous serious tropes. Doing it in some new way was just confusing.

Also, it was physically difficult to hear and understand the Lion Turtle - I had to rewind it and watch it again on mute (gods bless DVR) to get what he was saying. Another mild critique is that they took away Sokka's space sword for no particular reason, and that they ended up doing the final kiss after inexplicably moving to the Earth Kingdom so that they can drink tea and goof off, when they could have easily done it in the Fire Kingdom after Zuko's speech.

As a side note I think that Aang pretty much had to end up with someone. In 4 generations, the Avatar will reincarnate into another Air Bender, and Aang is the last air bender. Thus he needs to have kids and he needs to train them as air benders, or the Avatar will have no one to reincarnate into.

So, any speculation on the upcoming movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0938283/)? Hopefully, M. Night Shyama-lana-ding-dong won't reboot everything and then ruin the ending with yet another twist that makes no sense.

Ok, the final scene makes sense if you link it back to Iroh's previously stating that he was going to get his tea shop back. If a friend of yours is having a grand opening of a business, wouldn't you go? My guess is that's just what that was, they where having a party for the grand opening, nothing more.

As for the air benders.... I think it's possible that there could end up being a mix of Aang's kids and new awakenings, possibly among the descendants of air nomads in other nations or like was previously suggested Aang could teach the mechanic's people the spirituality of airbending, allowing them to learn it.

[kamikasei]

I forgot to mention.

*ahem*

Comets do not work that way!

[H. Zee]

@ Zaraki- that's not really how it works. At least for me, you suspend physics when expected (mainly for the bending), but expect it to apply everywhere else. Now, I'm willing to make several exceptions for the rule of cool and whatnot, but too much of it can bug me. There's a limit.


Fair enough. I guess it's not the same for you, but I'll happy swallow almost anything as long as the results are spectacular enough.

EDIT: ...Hm. That sounds more like I'm describing drug-taking than TV-watching. Hopefully you know what I meant.

[Katasi]

I forgot to mention.

*ahem*

Comets do not work that way!

They do in the Avatar world, at least that one does.

[Kobold-Bard]

I have an idea for future air benders.

100 years ago(ish) - the fire nation attacks the Air Temples and massacre the airbenders, sky bison and lemurs there.

But what about the ones that weren't there?
We have seen that airbenders would leave the temples (Aang visiting Bumi etc). It is highly unlikely that every air nomad in the world were at the temples when they were attacked. Most maybe, but almost certainly not all.

So you are an airbender who has just found out your home and people have been destroyed. What do you do?
Nine times out of ten you hide.

If they hold onto their pacifict beliefs and are sensible enough to realise that attacking the fire nation in vengence is suicide they will either live outside general society in mountains or whatever, or they would cover their tattoos (as Aang did for a while) and blend into society, probably Earth Kingdom villages that have also been hurt by the Fire Nation.

The latter of these options may lead to the possibility of having a child that would be able to airbend. If this happens the airbender parent can either teach their child it in secret (see Haru) or it can remain hidden.

Either way Post-Ozai, airbending would no longer be taboo. If there are any airbenders who realise they can do it, they come out of hiding and recreate the air nomads. Or those that do not know about their abilities discover them through mimicking Aang or something like that. Combine these with Aang and Katara's kids (because from what evidence we have in Zuko's family all descendents of the Avatar can bend) then bish-bash-bosh, enough airbenders to repopulate the air temples.

This is just my theory, feel free to shoot holes in it if you wish.
(Also sorry if it was not as articulate as it could have been but I am really tired)

[Telonius]

I forgot to mention.

*ahem*

Comets do not work that way!

The moon doesn't shut off when you kill a fish, either. :smallbiggrin:

[Phase]

The moon doesn't shut off when you kill a fish, either. :smallbiggrin:

Very true. But I do if I don't like you. So, if I ever leave, it's your fault.

[YPU]

You know i think azula actually keeps to her nature in a way. She has a history of ruining victories right, always finding a way to turn it to her use or later on totally destroying the spoils the victories had brought. In a way she does that again, when at the end she totally snaps and starts to cry she really makes me feel uncomfortable and ruin the victory feeling of that part, so I might not fit in persona perse, it fits in role in the series.
Indeed, the spirit bending should have at least been foreshadowed a bit, perhaps it was and we aint looking good enough. But it was cool in the end, and quite a few lion turtles show up here and there it seems so its only fitting.

Also, kobold-bar; in the avatar card game, (which nobody seems to play or sell) there is a card whose name I forgot but it ended in witch, the persona of that card was a air bender who lost her way from her family as a small child and ended up being an airbender without knowing what sort of powers she had even tough she did use them. Why doesn’t she know its airbending? I don’t know anyhow the airbenders soon after got whipped out and remember that soka calls water bending ‘magic’ at the beginning of the series as wel. There might very well be more airbenders left, and if so there is one in the lotus order, you can be sure of that.

[Firestar27]

You know i think azula actually keeps to her nature in a way. She has a history of ruining victories right, always finding a way to turn it to her use or later on totally destroying the spoils the victories had brought. In a way she does that again, when at the end she totally snaps and starts to cry she really makes me feel uncomfortable and ruin the victory feeling of that part, so I might not fit in persona perse, it fits in role in the series.
Indeed, the spirit bending should have at least been foreshadowed a bit, perhaps it was and we aint looking good enough. But it was cool in the end, and quite a few lion turtles show up here and there it seems so its only fitting.

Also, kobold-bar; in the avatar card game, (which nobody seems to play or sell) there is a card whose name I forgot but it ended in witch, the persona of that card was a air bender who lost her way from her family as a small child and ended up being an airbender without knowing what sort of powers she had even tough she did use them. Why doesn’t she know its airbending? I don’t know anyhow the airbenders soon after got whipped out and remember that soka calls water bending ‘magic’ at the beginning of the series as wel. There might very well be more airbenders left, and if so there is one in the lotus order, you can be sure of that.

But the people who made the card game made some stuff up. The creators of the show said so. There wasn't enough material to make a whole card game at the time.

[Kato]

Yeah, I'm late, but I just finished it ^^'
So... hm... it was quite awesome but there was at least one important question I wonder about... 'Where is my mother?' Wtf? Why did they let him ask when there was no answer? And then they were all happy and smiley and stuff... (maybe it was mentionedon one of the five sides before, but maybe someone could help me there)

Also... I liked it quite a lot. Though I think the fight Ozai bs Aang wasn't the best in the book. At the beginning Ozai had way the upper hand, until Aang could have shot him down with the lightning, but then again was way stronger. And when in Avatar state it jst turned around and Ozai didn't stand a chance. Azulah's fight or even the recapturing of Ba Sing Seh were better, imo.
Also... I know it's the plot but still... the white Lotus had that much trust in a bunch of kids leaving the whole fleet to them? Couldn't one or two have joined them and waited with attacking Ba Sing Seh? Like... until after the firebenders had super powers? *shrug*

[averagejoe]

I don't think there are any major spoilers in this, but it doesn't hurt to be safe. Either way, read at your own risk.

I have to get this off my chest. I loved seasons one and two, but, honestly, the third season fell kind of flat for me. Largely it felt too rushed; there was too much of that "become the grand ultimate master in two hours" silliness, a lot of the characterization felt abrupt and shallow, and there was very little of the great forshadowing and use of wossname's gun that we saw previously. The whole finale ran rather predictably, without any of the tension that was built up in the season one finale, or the skillful and blatent subversions of what would normally be standard in that of season two. I mean, the finale wasn't terrible, but on the whole I could have seen this as a finale of any show, without any of the specialness Avatar brought to the genre. There was a lot of great stuff built up at the end of season two, and almsot none of it was used; there weren't even any complications in the Kitara/Aang One True Pairing (One True Pairings annoy me, just as a quick aside, and it always irritates me when the two characters so obviously pushed together by the writers end up together), as one might expect with Aang's decision at the climax of the season two finale. All we got was Kitara feeling confused for no damn reason, and then getting better for no reason two days later.

Heck, season three wasn't even all that funny, though that was something Avatar always did well, and what (nearly) always made the fillers so enjoyable, sometimes even more so than the more plot based episodes. It did have its moments; the recap episode was hilarious, as were the parts of The Beach that didn't involve overly-forced and cringeworthy "character development." However, overall, they didn't do a good job of incorporating humor into it.

The lack of humor wouldn't even be so bad if the arc had a darker feel, as one might expect. However, it didn't. There was never really any buildup. We just got a bunch of everything-normal-except-in-the-fire-nation episodes, and then, abruptly, "hey, we're going for the attack now."

I can't even manage to be angry about this. Mostly I was suprised and dissapointed by the lack of quality when compared to the cartoon I fell in love with.

[Lostintransit]

Hmm, I too am a keen fan of the avatar setting and have pondered much over the season finale.

Overall I enjoyed it and was kept interested, however a number of points, all of which have already been said, did crop up. The main stickler was the "where is my mother?" as I'm a big fan of having a show leaving no loose ends and a sense of completeness at the end of a show.

So now I'm bouncing around waiting to see if they do a book 4.........

[Wraithy]

"he remembered my birthday!"

[BRC]

So over the last couple days I took it upon myself to watch the entire series, and I was fairly impressed. Toph was probably my favorite character.

Azula's descent into total madness was done fairly well I thought, Though it seemed abit sudden, and her chained to the grid at the end was just pitiful.
One of the problems with the Finale I had was the Aangst about pacifism. By that point he'd engaged in some pretty darn lethal combat, and I would be surprised if at least one person hadn't died, even if we didn't see it on screen. I mean, he'd blown up the giant drill, and somebody could have gotten caught in that, and thrown plenty of big heavy rocks around at high speeds. That's not exactly a non-lethal form of combat. The Big Aang Vs Ozen fight seemed kinda spectacle ish and "OVER NINE THOUSAND" style, but not too much.
With the series as a whole I only really had three problems, all of which I should just recite the MST3K mantra for, but anyway
1: Airbenders control air, Earthbenders control earth, Waterbenders control water. Firebenders broke the pattern by being Human flamethrowers. They didn't just control fire, they were able to create it, which while being cool, did break the pattern a little.
2: You constantly saw Earthbenders pulling rocks out of the ground, however there was never a hole in the ground where they pulled the rock out of.
3: Bent fire aparrentally involved concussive force, much more so than heat. In general, people didn't seem to get burned by firebending, they got thrown back. Stuff generally didn't light on fire so much as it got smashed.

[thubby]

1: Airbenders control air, Earthbenders control earth, Waterbenders control water. Firebenders broke the pattern by being Human flamethrowers. They didn't just control fire, they were able to create it, which while being cool, did break the pattern a little.
i think thats justified, unless it would be more entertaining to have them carry around matches

2: You constantly saw Earthbenders pulling rocks out of the ground, however there was never a hole in the ground where they pulled the rock out of.
because they pulled up deeper earth to fill the void. why would the bender decide to leave a hole when they could fill it and bring up more ammo? if you notice, paved streets are frequently damaged in the process.

[Nerd-o-rama]

And regarding Firebenders, it's sort-of explained that they're more energybenders, able to pull heat and ki (I guess) from their surroundings and themselves and transform them into fire and concussive force. More the latter, because it's a kids' show. It's not energy or matter creation, it's energy conversion.

[Gmmaster42]

Wow... Just wow... The Avatar finale in my opinion can only be described as pure awesomeness. It had everything; laughs, pure ownage and awesome fight scenes, and of course the happy ending. I will certainly miss the show, hopefully they won't ruin it with the movie, and hopefully they'll find a way to make a fourth season. I doubt they will though. Anyway, great series, definitely the best cartoon I have seen in many long years. I will definitely have to run a campaign in the Avatar world soon.


By the way... Toph as the Melon Lord is an epic win! :smallbiggrin:

[motionmatrix]

Hey guys,

Is there a thread discussing Sozin's Comet d20? or is it all broken down in the seeds, feats, etc?

[Rogue 7]

Check the homebrew forum. An Avatar d20's been brewing there since I joined the forum.

[Otempora]

Saw this ages ago, but haven't had a chance to post.

Personally, I thought it was pretty awesome. I particularly loved the music and the animation.

The energybending thing wasn't exactly a cop-out, but I think it could've used more foreshadowing. Maybe one of the silly time-wasting adventures could've mentioned a lion-turtle.

One of the things that bugged me was Kataang. I'm no Zutara fan, but it sort of... fell flat. It seemed like Katara was just Aang's prize for saving the world, especially considering her conflicted feelings just one episode before. Gah.

[thubby]

One of the things that bugged me was Kataang. I'm no Zutara fan, but it sort of... fell flat. It seemed like Katara was just Aang's prize for saving the world, especially considering her conflicted feelings just one episode before. Gah.

what is the actual time between the play and sozin's comet? like 2-3 days wasn't it?
real relationships have "i don't know"s, i personally thought it was one of the best bits of cartoon romance to date.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I still haven't watched it.
Its on TiVo, but I haven't touched it.

Very rarely do I ship something so strongly that I will refuse to watch the show after the ship becomes impossible. I find flexibility is best with shipping, usually.
Sadly, Zutara is one of my few exceptions.
I cannot bring myself to watch this...

[Leon Stormchild]

Blew. My. Mind.

:smallbiggrin:

[Lord of Rapture]

I still haven't watched it.
Its on TiVo, but I haven't touched it.

Very rarely do I ship something so strongly that I will refuse to watch the show after the ship becomes impossible. I find flexibility is best with shipping, usually.
Sadly, Zutara is one of my few exceptions.
I cannot bring myself to watch this...

I am laughing at you pathetic Zutara shipper. You want to know why I hate shipping? Zutara. The finale was extra awesome for sinking Zutara. *cackles madly*

[RabbitHoleLost]

I am laughing at you pathetic Zutara shipper. You want to know why I hate shipping? Zutara. The finale was extra awesome for sinking Zutara. *cackles madly*
Sir, while it may be silly of myself to think of Zutara as my preferred ship, I don't appreciate you calling me pathetic.

[Lord of Rapture]

Sir, while it may be silly of myself to think of Zutara as my preferred ship, I don't appreciate you calling me pathetic.

I was joking, sorry.:smallredface:

[endoperez]

Sadly, Zutara is one of my few exceptions.
I cannot bring myself to watch this...


It isn't that bad. It's not like Zuko and Katara will never meet again, they just go on with their respective lives. They aren't sad about who they ended up with, and that's all that the ending really says. I suggest watching the finale and taking the ending as fully political: as a Fire Lord Zuko must take a fire nation bride and Aang is still too insecure about his role for Katara to leave him.

I remember the time I was reading Finnish fantasy. It's not common, and it's not very good, and most of it is quite low on magic. I finished a book, and it was a romance until the end when it became sad, so I started another book. It's romantic subplot also became a tragedy. :smallfrown: I don't like sad endings.


At least animated series end, unlike comic book stories, who must continue, and old lovers and families and powers and plots are eventually phased out. Few decades ago, Swamp Thing started a tender romance with Abby... and then some writers didn't like it and got rid of her. And Books of Magic (about Timothy Hunter, and little about Molly O'Reilly) had a great start, but the story turned to worse not long after their kiss in hell ("you fools! you can't love in hell! it's not allowed!" screamed the demon!).

[AstralFire]

It isn't that bad. It's not like Zuko and Katara will never meet again, they just go on with their respective lives. They aren't sad about who they ended up with, and that's all that the ending really says. I suggest watching the finale and taking the ending as fully political: as a Fire Lord Zuko must take a fire nation bride and Aang is still too insecure about his role for Katara to leave him.

I remember the time I was reading Finnish fantasy. It's not common, and it's not very good, and most of it is quite low on magic. I finished a book, and it was a romance until the end when it became sad, so I started another book. It's romantic subplot also became a tragedy. :smallfrown: I don't like sad endings.


At least animated series end, unlike comic book stories. Few decades ago, Swamp Thing started a tender romance with Abby... and then some writers didn't like it and got rid of her. And Books of Magic (about Timothy Hunter, and little about Molly O'Reilly) had a great start, but the story turned to worse not long after their kiss in hell ("you fools! you can't love in hell! it's not allowed!" screamed the demon!).

Mainstream comics are impossible to read long-term and keep any emotional investments in the characters. Nothing permanently changes to the main characters and all the side characters are just so many specks of dirt in the wind. (With some exceptions, of course.)

Part of why I like the DCAU and X-Men: Evo much more than the comics.

[thubby]

infinite series syndrome! wooo!

[Revanmal]

The energybending thing wasn't exactly a cop-out, but I think it could've used more foreshadowing. Maybe one of the silly time-wasting adventures could've mentioned a lion-turtle.

A lion-turtle is mentioned in "Sokka's Master." Sokka's heart is twice as big as one or something. It didn't say anything about em save they were huge, but other than that I can't think of anything else either.

[Thrawn183]

So I saw some mention of this on the third page, but I didn't read any further. I don't have a problem with what Ang did because:
1) It was actually explained
2) Because the whole point was laughing at us the viewer. We all thought the past avatars were telling Ang to kill the firelord, but that's only because we couldn't see another way. The whole point of the avatar is that they can find that other way. Don't you remember the episode where Ang has to lead the two tribes through the canyon and eventually get them to work together? I have to say that while I wish Ang had to work a little harder to obtain that ability, it certainly fit in with the theme of the series.

[Revlid]

I would have loved the final episodes if:

a) Aang had actually had to kill Ozai. If there had been another season (focusing on the rebuilding of the world) then this would have made for good character development. However, there was no fourth season, and Aang's angst over taking a life would left the show with something of a Downer Ending. Plus, kid's show, so yeah.

b) The alternative to killing him had been foreshadowed. Even, like, an episode ago. At all.

As it was, they were a series of really good episodes that went out with a damp squib (except Southern Raiders, which is ranked down there with The Great Divide on my list of Avatar episodes).