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Conners
2008-07-20, 09:29 AM
I was wondering how to stat various animals that hsve been left out from 4e. For example: Dogs, house cats (which are capable of killing a 1st level wizard: http://www.gorbashkazdar.com/demotivators/HousecatWizard.jpg), other types of bear, panthers (why have a section for panthers when you don't even have the original?), tiger, normal snakes, bats, etcetera.

Have you guys worked out any stats for animals already?

Tsadrin
2008-07-20, 12:10 PM
I was wondering how to stat various animals that hsve been left out from 4e. For example: Dogs, house cats (which are capable of killing a 1st level wizard: http://www.gorbashkazdar.com/demotivators/HousecatWizard.jpg), other types of bear, panthers (why have a section for panthers when you don't even have the original?), tiger, normal snakes, bats, etcetera.

Have you guys worked out any stats for animals already?

What purpose do these animals serve in which they'll require a stat block? It is my understanding the stat blocks were left out of the MM 4th because there was never any reason for an adventurer to fight a 'normal' animal.

While a normal animal 'might' be a slight threat to a normal (0 level) human, such an animal would not be much of a threat (or likely even approach) an armed group of adventurers.

The shift from game to simulation, in my opinion, was a huge failure on the part of D&D 3.x. I'm honestly glad to see D&D returning to its roots in a manner of speaking.

almyki
2008-07-20, 12:35 PM
???

"Return to its roots"?

I'm a real newb to D&D, so I don't know much about it all or anything, but I've browsed through one of the first D&D books by Gary Gygax himself, I think it was AD&D? And it had tons of normal animals, from snakes to hippopatamus to bats and everything. Way more than the 4e MM at the very least. I was really glad to see it too, because maybe it's just me, but the thought of living/fighting in a world infested with only mostly inherently evil magical creatures always seemed kinda' weird.

Besides, there are plenty of ferocious animals, and 'heroes' or not, adventurers are still mortal (and also many times human too), right? A pack of wolves hunting in an icy tundra have gotta' put up some sort of fight. Or at least... I should hope they could... I haven't actually played enough to be able to be a good judge of what would or wouldn't be a challenge...

Anyway, what's this about a cat being able to take down a wizard O.o ? I think I heard of something like that before, actually. Weird.

<3 ali

Tsadrin
2008-07-20, 01:23 PM
I need to find time to answer this in detail it seems.

Totally Guy
2008-07-20, 01:32 PM
We've just finished our 3.5 campaign and I'll be the one to run some 4E next time, I was planning since I found this out, to have the first encounter as a bull in a field. That would be purely for averting the the trope.

What I might do is reflavour a drake or something.

Tsadrin
2008-07-20, 01:38 PM
Odd... apparently I can't post anything longer than a sentence or two without getting an error. I'll edit this post later with my response once this matter is cleared up.

Waspinator
2008-07-20, 01:45 PM
Anyway, what's this about a cat being able to take down a wizard O.o ? I think I heard of something like that before, actually. Weird.

<3 ali

It's because in 3.5, ordinary house cats were actually pretty dangerous to a low-level character with a d4 HD if they got the drop on them.

RTGoodman
2008-07-20, 01:46 PM
I statted out dogs a while back in a thread where someone asked about it. If you've got a little bit of time, just go to the DMG and use the rules for creating monsters to create normal animals. Just don't give them crazy powers and you'll be fine.

Armoury99
2008-07-20, 02:05 PM
It is a bit of a shame that most dangerous animals didn't make it in... particularly those of us who liked more down to earth or 'man against the savagery of nature' kind of games (at least in the early levels). You're right that previous editions had an ark-load of real-world critters (or rather "fictionalised real world critters") but I also understand why they have been cut from the first 4e Monstrous Manual - space is precious and I can understand why 'bull' went out in favour of something more "cool and exciting." Also there are no more familiars, so the need for very minor animals is gone.

The smattering we do get should be enough for a good start however: Add a minotaur or gorgon's horn damage to a horse and bingo! Roughly an instant bull. If you want to scale them up to Paragon and Heroic 'Ultimate Fighting Bull' you can just use a gorgon, minus the magical stuff (maybe with an encounter power for charging) or bang on a load of Hit Dice.

Your best bet to deal with very minor creatures (like house cats) is to put them as minions or in swarms like the rat... although all cat-owners know that they are Elite Solo Controllers :smallsmile:. The ommision of an actual good old-fashioned guard dog is pretty unforgiveable, but hyena stats should serve well enough. I wouldn't worry too much about being bang on the money, as 4e is pretty abstract anyway. Just go with whatever feels right for your PCs' level. The biggest challenge you'll face is that 4e characters are just so much more capable (even the first level wizards!) than previous incarnations. After 1 or 2 levels, most 'normal animals' just won't cut it, although in fantasy gaming terms I wouldn't include an elephant or hippo, or anaconda as 'normal' - they're essentially just non-magical monsters.

On the other hand, feel free to homebrew away! A 4e bestiary would be a great addition to the boards and I'm already salivating at the thought of hippos and their "crushing bite" encounter power - mwahahahahahaa!

PS, don't worry about the cat thing, we all know that cats use their minions to take down wizards. :smallbiggrin:

Tsadrin
2008-07-20, 02:37 PM
Well apparently this thread hates me and won't let me post my prepared response. If later I can fix this I will. I'll just say for now, that yes normal animals are good to use against normal humans and weak PCs. Unfortunately D&D 4th presumes a different level of PC power. This is part of what I mean when I say that D&D 4th is going back to its roots.

RTGoodman
2008-07-20, 02:38 PM
A 4e bestiary would be a great addition to the boards and I'm already salivating at the thought of hippos and their "crushing bite" encounter power - mwahahahahahaa!

You know, that actually is a pretty cool idea. If no one has done it by then, I might start up a thread in the Homebrew section later this evening.

Rawhide
2008-07-20, 10:50 PM
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Conners
2008-07-21, 05:03 AM
After looking over some posts and the MM, I have this to say: Why is a Hyena at the same level as a Gray Wolf...? One time I was watching Animal Planet, a leopard was unwilling to fight the single hyena over a fresh kill--and I could see why, the hyena was HUGE. They also have a an incredible jaw strength -- they ranked among (and possibly above) sharks and crocodiles in jaw-strength -- so I think I'd make them a bit tougher than they are...

Back on topic: I can see plenty of uses for normal animals against PCs. Besides the fact they're great for lower-level encounters, you can also just give the animals favourable circumstances. Examples:
The PCs have been stripped of their weapons and armour. The villain who removed the party's equipment then decides to have some fun--by watching his pets rip the now-vulnerable adventurers to small, bloody chunks.
After killing ending the scheme of a tyrant, the PCs rest easily in an inn. The assassin hired to kill said heroes, rather than risk his life, lets loose two deadly vipers into their chamber.
XYZ, the evil druid, takes the orb of ZZY, using it's power to take control of the normally docile animals of the forest--making them attack people at random.
At the town markets, the fighter sees a wolf cub tied up. The custom of the town is to kill a wolf in a horrendous fashion, taking revenge on the creatures which kill their valuable sheep. Since wolves are deadly even when tied up, however, the mayor has decided to use a young, and therefore less-deadly, wolf. Acting quickly, the fighter rescues the wolf-cub and escapes from the angry villagers, raising it into a loyal hound which would be by his side ever since that day.

Fhaolan
2008-07-21, 09:26 AM
After looking over some posts and the MM, I have this to say: Why is a Hyena at the same level as a Gray Wolf...? One time I was watching Animal Planet, a leopard was unwilling to fight the single hyena over a fresh kill--and I could see why, the hyena was HUGE. They also have a an incredible jaw strength -- they ranked among (and possibly above) sharks and crocodiles in jaw-strength -- so I think I'd make them a bit tougher than they are...

There are multiple kinds of hyena. What you saw was very likely the spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), which is the largest and strongest of the hyenas, also called 'Laughing Hyena', so it's also the one best known despite the fact that it lives in a very isolated area in South Africa. There are many other subspecies of hyena such as the striped hyena (Hyaena hyaena), the brown hyena (Hyaena brunnea) and the relatively tiny aardwolf (Proteles cristatus). All of these other types of hyena are significantly smaller than the spotted hyena, and have much larger ranges so they are more 'common'. If you take an average, you end up with something about the size and strength of hte Gray Wolf.

Charity
2008-07-21, 10:07 AM
It's not really very heroic for 5 heavily armed adventurers to take on a badger, or even a jaguar for that matter, tiger/grizzly/rhino fair enough, little animals would be much more interested in running away from half a dozen spikey bipeds.



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Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-21, 11:33 PM
Statting animals for your encounters is dead easy. See page 184 in the DMG; look up the most closely related animal in the M&M for some power ideas. It'll take about 10-15 minutes, unless you get hung up on the power.

Conners
2008-07-23, 06:31 AM
I guess I'll stat my own monsters, then... this will be hard since I'm inexperienced with statting in general :smalleek:. My first goal will be to stat two tiny, but incredibly venomous, snakes (I'll edit their stats into this post when I'm done).

EDIT: I've made the statblock, but I am not quite so sure about it... Viper Level 7 Minion
Tiny natural beast (reptile) 120 XP
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +7; low-light vision
HP 25; Bloodied 12
AC 21; Fortitude 16, Reflex 20, Will 14
Speed 2, climb 2
Action Points 0
:Melee: Venomous Bite (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +12 vs. AC; 1 damage plus secondary attack on same target.
Secondary Attack: +8 vs. Fortitude; 2 poison damage, and ongoing 1d4 + 10 poison damage (save ends; continues even outside of combat). A DC 14 Heal check ends the continual damage, and grants the target bonus hit points equal to half the damage he or she was caused by the poison.
:Reaction: Lightning Reflexes (immediate; at-will)
Upon missing the snake, it will attack the attacker as a free action, unless they are outside of the snakes reach (see: “Venomous Bite”)
Quick Strikes
Vipers can make unlimited attacks of opportunity
Str 6 (-2) Dex 22 (+6) Wis 14 (+2)
Con 9 (-1) Int 3 (-4) Chr 5 (-3)

Behaviour:
The vipers in this case are trained to kill sleeping targets. Once all targets are easily dead, they would leave—this, however, is very unlikely (I hope) to happen to the adventurers.
Once threatened by non-sleeping adversaries, the viper will hiss and stay its ground—striking at anyone who comes into range. Should the party use ranged attacks, or attack it with a reach-weapon, the snake will soon get the idea it is not welcome and try to retreat.

Lore:
Nature DC 15: Vipers have a hard time distinguishing an object from an enemy, at least when angered, and are prone to strike at rocks thrown at them and similar things.
Nature DC 18: When threatened by a substantial enemy, vipers will only attack defensively, retreating should they get the chance.
Possible problems: 1)I gave it extra XP value since it's so tough, but I might need to give it more...
2) I made the snake a Minion since I felt a small snake shouldn't require more than one hit to kill, but at the same time I want the encounter I'm putting it in to be worrying...
3) I want the message, "Do NOT let this bite you--it's VERY poisonous (venomous)!!" to come across strongly, but I'm wondering how to do this with the continuous damage system without massacring someone in two or three rounds...

Can you please give me some advice on this? Note that the encounter I'm using the snakes in is for a party of five, level 1 adventurers. Also, they are set-upon in the night when they supposedly will be asleep (I want the encounter to be dangerous, but not hard should the party imply strategy).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-23, 11:37 PM
My advice is to read the MM, familiarize yourself with the monster building and template rules in the DMG, and go from there. It takes a lot of familiarity with existing monsters, basically.

To start with, you shouldn't tamper with XP. You pick the level according to the XP and threat the creature is - that's the whole beauty of the 4E monster creation system.

Now, working with what you've got there... minion is definitely the right way to go, since this is a creature you'd kill with one swipe but that can still hurt a PC.

I'd say a serpent like this is a Lurker minion (being Tiny, they have to use Stealth to get into your square), so let's use that. (Unfortunately, it seems they forgot to give guidelines for creating minions...)

Viper Level 7 Minion
Tiny natural beast (reptile) XP 75
Initiative +13 Senses Perception +6; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 21; Fortitude 17, Reflex 20, Will 18
Speed 2, climb 2

(Basic Melee Attack) Bite (standard; at-will) Poison
Reach 0; +10 vs. Reflex; 1 damage, and ongoing 2 poison damage and the target is slowed (save ends both). First Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is slowed and weakened (save ends all three).
So Tiny
A viper is treated as having cover in difficult terrain.

Alignment Unaligned Languages -
Skills Stealth +14
Str 3 (-1) Dex 20 (+9) Wis 15 (+6)
Con 12 (+4) Int 2 (-1) Cha 8 (+3)

You can make Bite vs. AC, too - just increase the bonus to +12 instead of +10. I opted for Reflex since the drat thing's so tiny, it'll just bite you where there's no armor.

Might ditch the first failed save effect; minions are supposed to be bookkeeping-light.

Can't be bothered to check if being Tiny is a bonus to Stealth checks.

The viper uses Stealth to get in your square, and bites. Then you stomp it. It's inconveniencing and makes other, bigger monsters more dangerous while you're affected by the poison. A minion!

Edit:
Actually, reviewing your needs, here's an alternate version of the Bite:

(Basic Melee Attack) Bite (standard; at-will) Poison
Reach 0; +10 vs. Reflex; 1 damage, and ongoing 2 poison damage and the target is slowed (save ends both). First Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is slowed (save ends both). Second Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends both).

Too much rolling involved for a minion, in my opinion, but there you go.

Conners
2008-07-24, 05:39 AM
My advice is to read the MM, familiarize yourself with the monster building and template rules in the DMG, and go from there. It takes a lot of familiarity with existing monsters, basically.

To start with, you shouldn't tamper with XP. You pick the level according to the XP and threat the creature is - that's the whole beauty of the 4E monster creation system.

Now, working with what you've got there... minion is definitely the right way to go, since this is a creature you'd kill with one swipe but that can still hurt a PC.

I'd say a serpent like this is a Lurker minion (being Tiny, they have to use Stealth to get into your square), so let's use that. (Unfortunately, it seems they forgot to give guidelines for creating minions...)

Viper Level 7 Minion
Tiny natural beast (reptile) XP 75
Initiative +13 Senses Perception +6; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 21; Fortitude 17, Reflex 20, Will 18
Speed 2, climb 2

(Basic Melee Attack) Bite (standard; at-will) Poison
Reach 0; +10 vs. Reflex; 1 damage, and ongoing 2 poison damage and the target is slowed (save ends both). First Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is slowed and weakened (save ends all three).
So Tiny
A viper is treated as having cover in difficult terrain.

Alignment Unaligned Languages -
Skills Stealth +14
Str 3 (-1) Dex 20 (+9) Wis 15 (+6)
Con 12 (+4) Int 2 (-1) Cha 8 (+3)

You can make Bite vs. AC, too - just increase the bonus to +12 instead of +10. I opted for Reflex since the drat thing's so tiny, it'll just bite you where there's no armor.

Might ditch the first failed save effect; minions are supposed to be bookkeeping-light.

Can't be bothered to check if being Tiny is a bonus to Stealth checks.

The viper uses Stealth to get in your square, and bites. Then you stomp it. It's inconveniencing and makes other, bigger monsters more dangerous while you're affected by the poison. A minion!

Edit:
Actually, reviewing your needs, here's an alternate version of the Bite:

(Basic Melee Attack) Bite (standard; at-will) Poison
Reach 0; +10 vs. Reflex; 1 damage, and ongoing 2 poison damage and the target is slowed (save ends both). First Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is slowed (save ends both). Second Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends both).

Too much rolling involved for a minion, in my opinion, but there you go. Thanks, this is very useful :smallsmile:. I'll use the original Viper statistics as a base for larger snakes I use in future. I guess I'll use the statistics you posted, if that's all right. Thanks again.

Still... I'm wondering about the venom... These snakes are meant to be very venomous, not just immobilize you. How do I explain that ICly...? Perhaps, this?: (Basic Melee Attack) Bite (standard; at-will) Poison
Reach 0; +10 vs. Reflex; 1 damage, and ongoing 2 poison damage and the target is slowed (save ends both). First Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is slowed (save ends both). Second Failed Save: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends both). I]Third Failed Save[/I]: Ongoing 2 poison damage, and the target falls unconscious--the target will die in 4d4 rounds unless attended to with a DC 15 Heal check (can't save until attended to with a DC 15 Heal check; save ends all).

Note that the players will certainly realize how venomous the snake is by the third failed save. I'll have the poor player in question writhe violently and froth at the mouth, you see (that way, they won't ignore him and realize he's dead later).
I'm also tempted to make the saving throw more difficult by giving the target a -2 penalty... can I do that, and should I (I like to go for realism, and the fact that you can shake off the effects of snake venom at ALL is crazy enough :smalltongue:)?

Please give me your advice on what to do, you're obviously way more experienced than I am (I'm pretty new to DMing, and even newer to 4e) :smallsmile:.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-24, 10:20 AM
Very, very, very few things are supposed to outright kill PCs. Immobilizing venom with ongoing damage (a central nervous system venom) is pretty dangerous already (and minions aren't really meant to be used by themselves).

I suppose you could make it something like... ongoing 5 poison damage and slowed, first failed save adds immobilization, second failed save leads to death if you are bloodied. (Compare to the beholder's death ray.)

I think immobilization + ongoing 2 damage is plenty dangerous, though. I mean, if you only use the snakes, you'd throw 20 of them at a party of five 7th-level characters - that's a lot of saves to make, and a lot of ongoing damage. (Although at that point you might make them a swarm of vipers, a level 7 solo monster...)

Telok
2008-07-24, 02:20 PM
Your problem is that a small, fragile snake has to represent a real threat to the PCs without killing them. You also want to keep the snake simple, not too much book work if they panic and the snake manages to bite three of them.

I would suggest checking the character's HP totals. Average the total and divide that by five. Use that number as the average damage of the poison. Use d4s to keep the actual damage close to your target number. Slap a slow effect on for some drama.

By throwing that many dice and dealing enough damage you can threaten the character with death while the 10+ save mechanic almost assures that nobody will actually die. This is assuming that you just drop one snake per room and less than four snakes or something. A critter this poisonous is likely to be very rare, expensive, and illegal. If you want more snakes (five or more, or multiple snakes per person) use a less dangerous poison. Just remember that the save, action point, and healing surge mechanics mean that the poison will will only last three rounds at best.

Tsadrin
2008-07-24, 07:40 PM
I still can't post my long past due and prepared response to this thread. However I do need to comment.

A level 7 viper? You seem to believe that normal animals should be a threat to adventurers. This may be what you want for your homebrew, but it most definitely steers clear of what is intended by the designers.

Normal animals are the scary things that scare villagers. A wild lion or a cornered bear might harm a 0-level normal human but in no way is more than a nuisance to an real adventurer in most other editions of D&D (I'd need to check 3.x as I don't use that system). Where D&D and AD&D had a low level of power not much better than normal human (1st and 2nd level) the most recent version of D&D (4th) distinctly moves the power curve away from normal humans into the hero and superhero range (defined by the original D&D uses for those words, 4th and 8th level respectively). Heroes don't fear normal animals and normal animals steer clear of armed people making a lot of noise.

Honestly, if you want adventurers to be checking their boots for small snakes and scorpions in the morning, throwing rocks into caves to make sure there aren't any bears around, or pussyfooting around a few lions to examine some corpse in the field I'd suggest you dig up a copy of GURPS or Rolemaster.

Edit: I'm finally able to post my original response.

Yes, there were stat blocks of some relatively normal animals in the AD&D MM. The purpose for those stat blocks were for those animals that PCs used for mounts, pets, or were common predatory beasts that may be a problem for 1st-2nd level adventurers. If you look though the AD&D MM many of the normal animals listed are of the giant variety and usually magical in nature.

Typical animals will run away from humans, especially if they are making noise. Herd animals may stampede or a cornered bear might attack a lone human, but on the whole an adventuring party would not be endangered by anything 'normal'. This is part of what makes D&D a game and not a simulation.

The root of D&D 4th is that adventurers skip the early near-normal human level of power that was 1st and 2nd level in D&D and AD&D. In the current edition PCs are presumed to be equivalent in power to what used to be 3rd-5th level to start. There was never a time where a normal animal* could seriously endanger a typical 3rd-5th level adventuring party in D&D or AD&D.

*Normal animals being those animals that may be encountered in the modern world. I'm not including dinosaurs or mega fauna in that category.

post-edit: I'll also like to add that at level 7 you're putting your normal viper on the same level of power as a carrion crawler, a grick, a griffon, and a hell hound. It's more powerful than a vicejaw crocodile, and is a step up from a few demons and devils as well as the Iron Cobra. A riding horse is only level 1 and a warhorse is only level 3. Even the deathrattle viper (described as a monstrous snake) is only level 5.

Conners
2008-07-24, 10:09 PM
.... It seems I forgot to mention some things. I notice some of you think I intend a lot of vipers for a party you're guessing it level 7ish... Details:

The party is five (possibly six) 1st level characters. An assassin lets loose two deadly snakes into their room. The snakes have to be dangerous, but the encounter isn't necessarily hard. Stand back and throw furniture/shoot-missiles at them and they'll sliver away.

I like to go for an amount of realism, and generally if a snake bites you, you can be dead VERY fast... Cobra venom will kill you within seconds, just from touching it.

I made it a level seven minion because: 1) I wanted it to be a threat to the party (they don't just one-hit it) so I wanted it's AC (plus other defences) and attack bonus to be good. It's bite does the minimum possible damage since it's so small, but the poison I want to be very deadly, like a real-world viper.

I note Tsadrin's statement, that adventurers are meant to be powerful and animals rarely attack. However, snakes were a relatively common assassination method, and few things can survive a venomous snake's bite (rabbits, surprisingly, have a good chance due to some immunity system).
The snakes do behave like real snakes, striking only defensively when threatened by humans/demi-humans, and leaving should it see the chance and be under too much threat.

Sorry for not explaining this earlier.

Tsadrin
2008-07-25, 01:44 AM
The party is five (possibly six) 1st level characters. An assassin lets loose two deadly snakes into their room. The snakes have to be dangerous, but the encounter isn't necessarily hard. Stand back and throw furniture/shoot-missiles at them and they'll sliver away.

A tiny sized snake will be stepped on and crushed beneath the heel of a boot. No 'normal' snake can't pierce the average trail boot. We're talking about heroes. Heroes don't die from normal snake bites. In D&D 4th PCs are far above normal humans. Playing a 'realistic' campaign isn't possible using this ruleset unless you change far too many core concepts as to make the game something that it isn't.


I like to go for an amount of realism, and generally if a snake bites you, you can be dead VERY fast... Cobra venom will kill you within seconds, just from touching it.

I won't get into specifics here but you should do some better research in the field if you want to use the real world as a basis for your game world. Even when provoked most venomous snakes tend to 'dry bite' to conserve resources. Venom, while deadly, doesn't kill as often as Hollywood and theatric 'snake charmers' would make it seem.


I made it a level seven minion because: 1) I wanted it to be a threat to the party (they don't just one-hit it) so I wanted it's AC (plus other defences) and attack bonus to be good. It's bite does the minimum possible damage since it's so small, but the poison I want to be very deadly, like a real-world viper.

A level 1 character, no matter the edition, will not be able to kill a level 7 without DM interference. You're setting your players up to die to the equivalent of a kick to the head from a cow or being struck down by lightning. Yes, normal people die from those two and other stupid accidents every year; more so than snake bites.


I note Tsadrin's statement, that adventurers are meant to be powerful and animals rarely attack. However, snakes were a relatively common assassination method, and few things can survive a venomous snake's bite (rabbits, surprisingly, have a good chance due to some immunity system).
The snakes do behave like real snakes, striking only defensively when threatened by humans/demi-humans, and leaving should it see the chance and be under too much threat.

Sorry for not explaining this earlier.

I understood perfectly well your position but I was rejecting it as being out of context of the genre. I seriously suggest that if you want a world of realism that you forgo playing D&D and pick up a system designed to model a more 'realistic' gameworld. D&D is designed to model the stories of Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Aragorn, and Cugal. To think that any of these heroes feared a common adder defeats the intention of the genre.

If you want players to worry about normal animals you demean them and put them into the same category as all the other humans in the game world. Something that is counter to the essence of what it is to be an adventurer.

DMG pg. 146


Even 1st-level characters are heroes, set apart from the common people by natural characteristics, learned skills, and some hint of a greater destiny that lies before them.

DMG pg 150


Adventurers Are Exceptional. Player characters are the pioneers, explorers, trailblazers, thrill seekers, and heroes of the D&D world.

PCs are the ones that wander away from the Points of Light that are villages and towns surrounded by the Darkness and Horror and live or die, not to bears and snakes but to orcs and the stuff of nightmares. Altering this core concept takes you out of the realm of D&D.

Conners
2008-07-25, 04:03 AM
A tiny sized snake will be stepped on and crushed beneath the heel of a boot. No 'normal' snake can't pierce the average trail boot.
We're talking about heroes. Heroes don't die from normal snake bites. In D&D 4th PCs are far above normal humans. Playing a 'realistic' campaign isn't possible using this ruleset unless you change far too many core concepts as to make the game something that it isn't.

I won't get into specifics here but you should do some better research in the field if you want to use the real world as a basis for your game world. Even when provoked most venomous snakes tend to 'dry bite' to conserve resources. Venom, while deadly, doesn't kill as often as Hollywood and theatric 'snake charmers' would make it seem.

A level 1 character, no matter the edition, will not be able to kill a level 7 without DM interference. You're setting your players up to die to the equivalent of a kick to the head from a cow or being struck down by lightning. Yes, normal people die from those two and other stupid accidents every year; more so than snake bites.

I understood perfectly well your position but I was rejecting it as being out of context of the genre. I seriously suggest that if you want a world of realism that you forgo playing D&D and pick up a system designed to model a more 'realistic' gameworld. D&D is designed to model the stories of Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Aragorn, and Cugal. To think that any of these heroes feared a common adder defeats the intention of the genre.

If you want players to worry about normal animals you demean them and put them into the same category as all the other humans in the game world. Something that is counter to the essence of what it is to be an adventurer.

DMG pg. 146

DMG pg 150

PCs are the ones that wander away from the Points of Light that are villages and towns surrounded by the Darkness and Horror and live or die, not to bears and snakes but to orcs and the stuff of nightmares. Altering this core concept takes you out of the realm of D&D. That's why I picked minion for the snake--because it dies real easy when hit but can still be dangerous.
Erm... why can't they? From my perspective, it only makes the adventure more exciting, as well as cutting out the thought, "How the heck does killing orcs make these guys immune to venom...?". Remember that these snakes in particular are especially lethal, their the type assassins use (a goblin assassin who served the drow, to be precise).
Again, if the PCs are careful the snake won't pose any real threat, but if they're careless there could be some nasty results. Heck, I think things are plenty in their favour with the fact they can actually save against venom. With snake bites, either they didn't put in enough and you only get sick, or they put in enough and you die certainly if you don't get medical attention, methinks.

I haven't seen much on the line of theatrical snakes. I do, however, live in Australia, and have seen several nature programs. In the end, I'm not a venom expert, but I do know venom doesn't just subtract five HP every round then stop completely on a successful saving throw :smalltongue:. And while snakes do dry-bite, I doubt they'd bother to while angry or threatened--just guessing, though. A nature-host was using a rubber dummy to STROKE a deadly snake, and it clung onto the dummy's hand for about ten seconds. Note that the snake would bite and inject venom in a fraction of a second...

It has twenty one AC, and 1st-level fighters appear to have a attack-bonus average of +5 to +6 (without powers), right? That means they have to roll a 14 or15, or use a power that increases accuracy--or attack it's less robust defenses. Also, the snakes will not approach people (and would need to get into their square to attack, anyway), so ranged attack will kill/scare-it-off pretty safely.
Just as an interest bit of info, I actually recall three incidents of lightning where the people struck by it were fine (two of the incidents happened to the same guy).

Poison was no less lethal in Conan than in reality, from the comics I read. To get into the ivory tower (or whatever it was called) the Guy with Conan used a poisonous gas which killed the lions in the garden instantly (he then related how he stole it from a caravan, and had to take it from the coil of a venomous snake). Conan doesn't get bitten by a cobra then say, "Darn, that's really getting to annoy me," he just doesn't get bitten. I believe with Aragorn and Lord of the Rings it is the same (note that I have no idea who the other people mentioned are).

They don't normally have to worry about animals, only on occasion. For example: A Giant Tapir killed a unit of kobold warriors who were capable of destroying the PCs, so I guess you can consider that as a time to worry about animals--even though real tapirs aren't that big (one still successfully bit a zookeeper's arm off and mauled her savagely).
Note that while animals being more dangerous can make things harder for the party, it could also make things easier should they collect a few "pets".
You say this will demean the adventurers, but you forget they are only first level. When they get to a high level, the viper's venom will have small chance of success--and it's venom -- in turn -- is among the most deadly there is (in this particular DnD world, I have yet to look up accurate venom statistics).

Does the DMG also say, "PCs are actually Demigods in disguise as weak mortals, that's why they seem to be completely inhuman/demi-human," or, "Venom, in the DnD world, is ten time weaker for.... a reason," :smalltongue:? I respect and understand the wish to make adventures more heroic by belittling things normally dangerous to humans as weak--but that, to me, just makes it seem less about amazing people who survive against the odds, and more about copies of Cohen (from Terry Pratchett's Discworld) who always succeed... ALWAYS. He's enveloped in an explosion which decimates and melts a mountain, but he still survives. Isn't part of the fun of DnD that you survive against great odds, not that you have a 100% chance of always succeeding (remember that it was much harder in earlier editions)?
What I feel is, the higher the PCs starts off, the less impressive it is when they finally get to the top :smallfrown:.

No offense meant. I hope you understand that I'm intending this to make the adventure more exciting, and not to in anyway belittle the players.

bosssmiley
2008-07-25, 06:01 AM
The shift from game to simulation, in my opinion, was a huge failure on the part of D&D 3.x. I'm honestly glad to see D&D returning to its roots in a manner of speaking.

Oh hi. You must be new in these parts.

1E: home of the man-eating frog (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/07/whats-his-story.html) and the killer boar (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/05/you-dont-get-more-old-school-than-wild.html).

Low level character's aren't heroes yet; mundane animals should be a threat to them, just as they are to people in the real world. The image of Tarzan wrestling a lion (or of weasels ripping your flesh (http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/mans_life_weasels.jpg)) is awesome. Leonidas was bad-ass for spearing a wolf, not for spearing a 4E MM [noun][verb]ing [adverb]wolf.

Semi-related: Bear Lore (http://1d4chan.org/images/7/7d/Bear_lore.png). This is why 4E can't have nice things. :smallamused:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-25, 07:30 AM
A level 1 character, no matter the edition, will not be able to kill a level 7 without DM interference.

Check your DMG plz. A monster six levels above PC level is perfectly fine (I think it's the upper limit, though), so long as it's not a soldier or a brute. Heck, just read the stats: AC 21 is nowhere near un-hittable for level 1 PCs, and the other defenses are fairly easy. That AC is standard for Lurkers and most others at level 7.

Conners: for your scene, I'd consider using some more... well, fantastic snakes. It's D&D - why throw in vipers when you can throw in deathrattle snakes or something? Two minion snakes just by themselves makes for a bit of a bad encounter - and if their venom is possibly outright deadly, you're pretty much going against all the 4E encounter/monster design concepts - since either side can just drop dead with one roll, which isn't the idea. Too much randomness.

Conners
2008-07-25, 12:32 PM
Conners: for your scene, I'd consider using some more... well, fantastic snakes. It's D&D - why throw in vipers when you can throw in deathrattle snakes or something? Two minion snakes just by themselves makes for a bit of a bad encounter - and if their venom is possibly outright deadly, you're pretty much going against all the 4E encounter/monster design concepts - since either side can just drop dead with one roll, which isn't the idea. Too much randomness. The problem is, I wanted to do a realistic campaign, meaning poison should work the way poison does. It's always bothered me with the way it works...
As you can see, they'd have to fail three saving throws to be in proper risk of death. Even then, a DC 15 Heal check makes them better (and they have at the least four rounds to have it applied).

I forgot to mention one thing, too: After a DC 15 Heal check has been applied to a poisoned character, they gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to half of the poison damage they sustained.

Mewtarthio
2008-07-25, 03:40 PM
That's why I picked minion for the snake--because it dies real easy when hit but can still be dangerous.

Strictly speaking, minions don't do that. They die real easy, but they have a good chance of messing you up in large groups. What you're thinking of is "rocket tag": First hit ends the battle.


Erm... why can't they? From my perspective, it only makes the adventure more exciting, as well as cutting out the thought, "How the heck does killing orcs make these guys immune to venom...?". Remember that these snakes in particular are especially lethal, their the type assassins use (a goblin assassin who served the drow, to be precise).

The problem is that level 7 PCs are already ridiculously powerful compared to us earth creatures. Totally mundane snakes seem like they shouldn't be able to harm them, simply because they already exist in our world. My solution: Just reflavour it as a fantastic snake. All you have to do is give it a name like "The Dreaded Stretonian Green Asp" to distance it from normal snakes, even though its venom (while potent) is totally mundane.

EDIT: To make myself a bit clearer: It's not that seventh-level PCs should be physically immune to mundane snake venom "just because"; it's because seventh-level PCs are heroes, and we don't want to believe they can be harmed by mundane snake venom. Take Batman for instance. Any random mook could theoretically kill Batman: All it would take would be a lucky shot to send a bullet up his mouth. However, that sort of thing would never actually happen, because Batman is such a powerful symbol that the audience would never believe he could be killed by someone so ordinary. That's not to say that the writers couldn't do that for shock value, but it would appear very arbitrary.

Tsadrin
2008-07-25, 06:54 PM
That's why I picked minion for the snake--because it dies real easy when hit but can still be dangerous.

Minions are not meant to be used in that manner. They are supposed to be used in a 4:1 ratio to replace equal level monsters.


I haven't seen much on the line of theatrical snakes. I do, however, live in Australia, and have seen several nature programs. In the end, I'm not a venom expert, but I do know venom doesn't just subtract five HP every round then stop completely on a successful saving throw :smalltongue:. And while snakes do dry-bite, I doubt they'd bother to while angry or threatened--just guessing, though. A nature-host was using a rubber dummy to STROKE a deadly snake, and it clung onto the dummy's hand for about ten seconds. Note that the snake would bite and inject venom in a fraction of a second...

I've been bitten, multiple times, by both pit vipers (rattlesnakes) and coral snakes. Every time was a dry bite. (I once even pissed off a python enough to bite me though I knew I had nothing to worry about when that happened.) According to the experts I've talked to about this it is because I was not the active target of a hunt. So either the experts are wrong or I've been more than incredibly lucky.


It has twenty one AC, and 1st-level fighters appear to have a attack-bonus average of +5 to +6 (without powers), right? That means they have to roll a 14 or15, or use a power that increases accuracy--or attack it's less robust defenses. Also, the snakes will not approach people (and would need to get into their square to attack, anyway), so ranged attack will kill/scare-it-off pretty safely.

If you insist on using the level 7 snake as a minion the players won't even need to worry. There are multiple ways to kill a minion without actually hitting it (cleave the chair next to it or have the paladin use Divine Challenge on it for example).

This is however as I stated not how minions are supposed to be used. They are supposed to be a form of fodder that can harm the group without overwhelming them with numbers that can't be chewed through quickly. A level 7 minion should be used in a level 7 encounter. There should be four of them for every one regular beast they're replacing i.e. instead of three level 7 brutes and two level 7 controllers the encounter could be made up of 12 level 7 minions and two level 7 controllers.


Poison was no less lethal in Conan than in reality, from the comics I read. To get into the ivory tower (or whatever it was called) the Guy with Conan used a poisonous gas which killed the lions in the garden instantly (he then related how he stole it from a caravan, and had to take it from the coil of a venomous snake). Conan doesn't get bitten by a cobra then say, "Darn, that's really getting to annoy me," he just doesn't get bitten. I believe with Aragorn and Lord of the Rings it is the same (note that I have no idea who the other people mentioned are). No where though did you see Conan worry about being harmed by that poision. When you reach a certain level of power certain trivial encounters stop being of importance. Normal people worry about and do die from falling from step ladders each year. The danger of dying from such a thing is NON-EXISTENT in a heroic story though and as such is trivial and shouldn't be introduced in a heroic game. (I once botched an open ended Movement & Maneuver roll hopping over a fence in Rolemaster, a system designed to be hyper-realistic. My character died from shock in a horrific fashion by breaking his leg and bleeding to death from a gruesome compound fracture.)


You say this will demean the adventurers, but you forget they are only first level. When they get to a high level, the viper's venom will have small chance of success--and it's venom -- in turn -- is among the most deadly there is (in this particular DnD world, I have yet to look up accurate venom statistics).

If this was D&D or AD&D I would agree that being 1st level compares to being close to normal human. However, having seen the development blogs, I can assure you that being 1st level in D&D 4th is not intended to be anything but heroic and beyond the typical normal human.


Does the DMG also say, "PCs are actually Demigods in disguise as weak mortals, that's why they seem to be completely inhuman/demi-human," or, "Venom, in the DnD world, is ten time weaker for.... a reason," :smalltongue:?

The MM 4th is quite clear though that the venom of a powerful 'monstrous snake', the Deathrattle Viper, only does 1d8+2 damage and 5 ongoing (stopped by save). That's clear to me that the intention of poison vs. PCs is supposed to be less a danger than you'd like it to be.


I respect and understand the wish to make adventures more heroic by belittling things normally dangerous to humans as weak--but that, to me, just makes it seem less about amazing people who survive against the odds, and more about copies of Cohen (from Terry Pratchett's Discworld) who always succeed... ALWAYS. He's enveloped in an explosion which decimates and melts a mountain, but he still survives. Isn't part of the fun of DnD that you survive against great odds, not that you have a 100% chance of always succeeding (remember that it was much harder in earlier editions)?
What I feel is, the higher the PCs starts off, the less impressive it is when they finally get to the top :smallfrown:.

No offense meant. I hope you understand that I'm intending this to make the adventure more exciting, and not to in anyway belittle the players.

My point is to say that while your idea is sound and may be what some people like in a game is counter to what makes D&D an adventure game. This is why I'm suggesting some very good systems to model the type of world in which you want to play. Don't take this the wrong way. I'm only defending the genre, not attacking you.

Tsadrin
2008-07-25, 07:14 PM
Oh hi. You must be new in these parts.

I'm 'new-ish' to GitP but I've been playing wargames and RPGs since 1981.


1E: home of the man-eating frog (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/07/whats-his-story.html) and the killer boar (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/05/you-dont-get-more-old-school-than-wild.html).

Low level character's aren't heroes yet; mundane animals should be a threat to them, just as they are to people in the real world. The image of Tarzan wrestling a lion (or of weasels ripping your flesh (http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/mans_life_weasels.jpg)) is awesome. Leonidas was bad-ass for spearing a wolf, not for spearing a 4E MM [noun][verb]ing [adverb]wolf.

Having hunted and killed wild boar with spear and dog I can assure you I understand the threat these animals can be when cornered. However I'm not a hero, nor an adventurer. I'm a normal human in the real world. A human that has feasted on good boar but normal none the less.

In AD&D a random encounter with wild boar (3+3 HD monsters) might seem a threat until you realize that a full group (12) is made up of 1 boar, 3 sow (only 3 HD each) and 8 young. Only the boar will fight until below 0 HP. A typical 1st level party of adventurers in the wilderness will number between 8 and 15 (5 or 6 PCs, one or two henchmen each and a few men-at-arms) in AD&D. The men-at-arms armed with spears alone are more than a match for the boar, the animals have no chance at all if one of the real fighter types is armed with a halberd or glaive.

In D&D and AD&D, yes, 1st and 2nd level adventurers were very vulnerable to some animal encounters in the wilderness. Especially small parties which is why old school wilderness adventures tend to be between 10 and 20 people between the PCs, henchmen, and men-at-arms. However we're discussing D&D 4th, which has been stated by the designers to have been made so that 1st level adventurers SKIP those early weak levels and start out at the level of true heroes right from the beginning.


Check your DMG plz. A monster six levels above PC level is perfectly fine (I think it's the upper limit, though), so long as it's not a soldier or a brute. Heck, just read the stats: AC 21 is nowhere near un-hittable for level 1 PCs, and the other defenses are fairly easy. That AC is standard for Lurkers and most others at level 7.


If you notice I was using a singular. In no scenario is a single level 1 going to take on a level 7 without DM fiat. Yes, a full party of level 1 adventurers could take on a level 7 monster but would most likely lose most of their number by the time it was finished off. The rules suggest though that if you want a hard encounter that is a singular monster you use either a solo or elite closer to the level of the PCs instead of one higher level normal monster.

By using a level 7 minion the minion rules are subverted and in doing so relieves the PCs of any real danger as there are ways to kill minions without actually rolling to hit them thereby trivializing the encounter.