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TwystidMynd
2008-07-20, 11:17 AM
This is mostly meant as an FYI. I saw a few Blade Cascade-oriented threads, and meant to post this earlier, but the server move forced me to postpone it.

Anyways, Wizards released a second version of errata (located at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates) that includes this little parcel:


Blade Cascade [Revision]
Player’s Handbook, page 109
On the Attack line, replace the second sentence with “Alternate main and offhand
weapon attacks until you miss or until you make five attacks.”

As an added bonus, they've also updated the D&DI Compendium (http://ww2.wizards.com/dnd/insider/database.aspx) with the same information.

No more killing Orcus with one power as a Ranger or multi-class Ranger. This, I feel, is probably a good thing =P Still, though, it's a pretty nice attack... a potential for 10[W] damage? I'd still take it!

Isomenes
2008-07-20, 11:43 AM
Wouldn't that be 5[W]? Each hand counts as an attack, unless I fail at reading comprehension.Yeah, I fail at reading comprehension. ::facepalm::

TwystidMynd
2008-07-20, 11:57 AM
I'm only going by the D&DI Compendium, since I don't have my books on-hand. On the website, it says


Attack: Strength vs. AC. Alternate main and offhand weapon attacks until you miss or until you make five attacks. As soon as an attack misses, this attack ends.
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack.


so each hit can do 2[W]. There could be a typo on the website, though... WOTC is nothing if not imperfect =P

Viruzzo
2008-07-20, 12:47 PM
I was thinking more of a cumulative -1 or -2 starting from the seconda attack, but it's nice anyway that they have taken care of the cheesiest power in the PHB.
What will you do now, Orcuslayerists?

Crow
2008-07-20, 12:58 PM
Next two powers on the list (hopefully);

Divine Miracle (!)
Seal of Binding

Isomenes
2008-07-20, 01:03 PM
Divine Miracle (!)

Honestly? At 30th level, a Demi-god ought to be that awesome. It isn't broken in that context, nor is it in need of alteration.

I'm still waiting for a Healer's Lore erratum. It should be fine as is, but CustServ has a different opinion :smallyuk:

Viruzzo
2008-07-20, 01:46 PM
Seal of Binding
It's brokenness is highly situational, you can stun an enemy indefinetely BUT you are also "stunned", therefore leaving the party without a leader to dispense cures. Since the enemy in question is probably an Elite and/or Solo he's going to have a lot of HP and won't really get damaged by SoB, the only real effect is that you're exchanging 1 fundamental PC for a strong but rarely fundamental NPC. Also, without Divine Regeneration and/or with some other enemies focused on you you will quickly become bloodied and therefore lose SoB.

Renegade Paladin
2008-07-20, 01:52 PM
I'm still waiting for a Healer's Lore erratum. It should be fine as is, but CustServ has a different opinion :smallyuk:
Who cares what CustDisserv thinks? :smallyuk:

Isomenes
2008-07-20, 02:10 PM
Who cares what CustDisserv thinks? :smallyuk:

My DM :smallfrown:

Crow
2008-07-20, 02:28 PM
Honestly? At 30th level, a Demi-god ought to be that awesome. It isn't broken in that context, nor is it in need of alteration.

I'm still waiting for a Healer's Lore erratum. It should be fine as is, but CustServ has a different opinion :smallyuk:

Almost every broken combo in the game right now is based on Divine Miracle. It's not ok when there is almost no reason not to go with Demigod.

As for Seal of Binding, it becomes broken when you use Divine Recovery. A single line of text in the power could fix this though...

SadisticFishing
2008-07-20, 04:58 PM
Divine Miracle is the one that gives you back encounter powers?

It means Encounter Attack Powers. I have absolutely no backing in the rules for this, just a (very) strong feeling.

Otherwise, a Halfling Demigod is virtually unkillable.

Crow
2008-07-20, 05:00 PM
Divine Miracle is the one that gives you back encounter powers?

It means Encounter Attack Powers. I have absolutely no backing in the rules for this, just a (very) strong feeling.

Otherwise, a Halfling Demigod is virtually unkillable.

You are correct. The only prereq is that it you have to expend all your encounter powers first (4 rounds, 3 with an action point, in most cases).

UserClone
2008-07-20, 05:07 PM
Pah, that power doesn't seem broken at all, given that it's level 30.

Charity
2008-07-20, 06:15 PM
You are correct. The only prereq is that it you have to expend all your encounter powers first (4 rounds, 3 with an action point, in most cases).

Nope.
Second Chance - Immediate Interrupt. You can only make one immediate action per round.
Not broken, just misunderstood.

Immediate Actions: You can take one immediate action per round, either an immediate interrupt or an immediate reaction.

Viruzzo
2008-07-20, 07:55 PM
Level 30 ED powers are all great (except the Eternal Seeker one), and after all you're supposed to quit that character soon enough after you hit 30. And where you're 30 you're supposed to fight the REALLY mean stuff, like Orcus and whatnot, and you will need those (demi)godly powers. So Divine Miracle is really good but not as broken as an unlimited Blade Cascade (especially with the obvious Imperiling Strike).

I totally don't see what's the problem with Seal of Binding and Divine Recovery. I mean, the real catch with SoB is that the enemy is made immune from other attacks, so how can you use it in a really broken way (for a level 25 daily anyway)?

SadisticFishing
2008-07-20, 09:12 PM
Ah. I figured the Halfling Power was a free action for some reason.

Then Elf. Every attack is a critical. Not as hardcore, but pretty damn overpowered.

Colmarr
2008-07-20, 09:12 PM
I'm still waiting for a Healer's Lore erratum. It should be fine as is, but CustServ has a different opinion :smallyuk:

What exactly is wrong with Healer's Lore?

Crow
2008-07-20, 09:24 PM
Nope.
Second Chance - Immediate Interrupt. You can only make one immediate action per round.
Not broken, just misunderstood.

I meant that he was correct in that Divine Miracle was the power he was thinking of. No misunderstanding on my part at all :smallwink:, I just should have been clearer.


Level 30 ED powers are all great (except the Eternal Seeker one), and after all you're supposed to quit that character soon enough after you hit 30. And where you're 30 you're supposed to fight the REALLY mean stuff, like Orcus and whatnot, and you will need those (demi)godly powers. So Divine Miracle is really good but not as broken as an unlimited Blade Cascade (especially with the obvious Imperiling Strike).

I totally don't see what's the problem with Seal of Binding and Divine Recovery. I mean, the real catch with SoB is that the enemy is made immune from other attacks, so how can you use it in a really broken way (for a level 25 daily anyway)?

You're supposed to quit the character after their "final quest" or whatever. That could be 1 session at level 30, or 20 sessions depending on the game. Divine Miracle is what allows you to stunlock opponents and let your team kill them at their leisure (regarded as a bad thing at one time), and that is only one example. Most of the broken combos discovered so far make use of Divine Miracle. Blade Cascade has been "fixed", but is still very powerful.

The problem with Seal of Binding and Divine Recovery is that the damage regenerated by Divine recovery is almost always more than the damage inflicted by sustaining the Seal. For most enemies, this means you can seal the biggest baddass in the group and slowly drain his life away at no risk to yourself.

*Early answers to the next two posters who will inevitably bring them up;

1. Orcus is not the only bad guy in the book, and solos aren't the only monsters you can use this on. (Not to mention the DMG guidelines for homebrewing bad guys).

2. In the case of other monsters in the encounter, the Cleric can be kept safe by the Defenders and Controllers everyone raves about :smallwink: ...when it's convenient for them.

I'm not saying the game sucks or anything, but I am saying that there are some combos to watch out for which can ruin a game if the DM doesn't know about them.

Isomenes
2008-07-20, 09:25 PM
What exactly is wrong with Healer's Lore?

It's basically completely ambiguous regarding certain powers marked with the Healing keyword (the requirement in Healer's Lore) that grant healing in a non-healing surge fashion (e.g., Melora's Tide and Consecrated Ground). The ambiguity is, where does the bonus get applied?

To try to nip the ambiguity in the bud, CustServ has said that these powers and others like them don't get your Wis. bonus applied because they're not direct healing, which is horsehockey as far as the rules are currently written. (The zone I can see, maybe, but regeneration is an explicit form of healing.) So I'd rather they just errata it and be done with rather than leave it up to a CustServ monkey. :smallmad:

Viruzzo
2008-07-21, 03:42 AM
Then Elf. Every attack is a critical. Not as hardcore, but pretty damn overpowered.
It's arguable: it says "use the attack roll", and I would read it as "you have to use it now". Also, it can be argued that the reroll granted by EA it's not really "an attack roll" as it qualifies for the power, so it should be clarified but I would rule this combo out.


You're supposed to quit the character after their "final quest" or whatever. That could be 1 session at level 30, or 20 sessions depending on the game. Divine Miracle is what allows you to stunlock opponents and let your team kill them at their leisure (regarded as a bad thing at one time), and that is only one example. Most of the broken combos discovered so far make use of Divine Miracle. Blade Cascade has been "fixed", but is still very powerful.
True, but still it's a small part of the game and the one in which you're supposed to be really powerful. Anyway DM can really become broken only with free actions (thereby starting infinite loops), much like Blade Cascade. Aside from that, getting a standard action power back means only that you can use it on your next turn and as such any brokenness it may lead to is probably more tied to the power than to DM.
Maybe a good way to rewrite DM so that it works in the same way but prevents infinte loops would be "regain an encounter power of your choice at the beginning of your next turn"?


The problem with Seal of Binding and Divine Recovery is that the damage regenerated by Divine recovery is almost always more than the damage inflicted by sustaining the Seal. For most enemies, this means you can seal the biggest baddass in the group and slowly drain his life away at no risk to yourself.
It's Divine Regeneration that you're talking about. Anyway, SoB does very little damage per turn, so that big monster it's not gonna die in less than 30 turns minimum. If it's alone then it's stunlock and gg, but in those turns your DM can and should call in some reinforcements. If it's not alone, the other NPCs would likely either bloody you or kill some of the ones that defend you, given that you're not giving them as many cures.
Also, level 25 daily + level 26 daily, epic tier, same "supposed to be really powerful" as above. And note that after 50 turns (5 minutes) is the max duration for "for the rest of the encounter" powers, meaning that DR will fade out and probably SoB too.
What I do acknowledge it's that probably this power was just meant to last for a few turns before you became bloodied, that is, just like it works without DR.

Charity
2008-07-21, 05:02 AM
Then Elf. Every attack is a critical. Not as hardcore, but pretty damn overpowered.

I did point this out over on Enworld many moons ago (combined with the original Blade cascade)... but as was pointed out to me the elven accuracy actually says you use the second result, so by very strict raw you may re-roll as much as you like but only the second one counts.
It can, of course also be limited by the 'only as many free actions as the DM allows' rule which is stated in RAW.

Crow
2008-07-21, 12:17 PM
True, but still it's a small part of the game and the one in which you're supposed to be really powerful. Anyway DM can really become broken only with free actions (thereby starting infinite loops), much like Blade Cascade. Aside from that, getting a standard action power back means only that you can use it on your next turn and as such any brokenness it may lead to is probably more tied to the power than to DM.
Maybe a good way to rewrite DM so that it works in the same way but prevents infinte loops would be "regain an encounter power of your choice at the beginning of your next turn"?

That wouldn't fix the infinite stunlock problem though. They need to put a limitation on the usage of Divine Miracle, because I don't think the designers planned on having entire parties stunlock the opposition and make every encounter trivial, even if they are level 30. Encounters are supposed to be Epic at this level, not trivial.



It's Divine Regeneration that you're talking about. Anyway, SoB does very little damage per turn, so that big monster it's not gonna die in less than 30 turns minimum. If it's alone then it's stunlock and gg, but in those turns your DM can and should call in some reinforcements. If it's not alone, the other NPCs would likely either bloody you or kill some of the ones that defend you, given that you're not giving them as many cures.
Also, level 25 daily + level 26 daily, epic tier, same "supposed to be really powerful" as above. And note that after 50 turns (5 minutes) is the max duration for "for the rest of the encounter" powers, meaning that DR will fade out and probably SoB too.
What I do acknowledge it's that probably this power was just meant to last for a few turns before you became bloodied, that is, just like it works without DR.

Thanks, that was the power I was talking about. It might not kill the monster, but you have basically taken away a huge portion of it's hit points basically for free, and it's obvious that the way it is being implemented is not the way it was intended to work.

SadisticFishing
2008-07-21, 06:06 PM
Yep, I reread the Elf power and decided that Second meant Second ever, not the new roll.

Though that's totally arguable RAW, critting on every attack is just silly.

Viruzzo
2008-07-22, 02:55 AM
That wouldn't fix the infinite stunlock problem though. They need to put a limitation on the usage of Divine Miracle, because I don't think the designers planned on having entire parties stunlock the opposition and make every encounter trivial, even if they are level 30. Encounters are supposed to be Epic at this level, not trivial.
Not all classes are going to go Semigod, and not all of them have an encounter stun power (I hope), and even if X members of the party are stunlocking X monsters (which probably means losing some damage from the strikers, some AoE damage from the controller and some cure/buffing from the leaders) the DM could simply add some other monsters that will gladly hack away at the PCs.
Just out of curiosity (since I'm not going to DM epic tier anytime soon), could you make an example of a 4 roles, 5 PCs party that can pull off a group stunlock?


Thanks, that was the power I was talking about. It might not kill the monster, but you have basically taken away a huge portion of it's hit points basically for free, and it's obvious that the way it is being implemented is not the way it was intended to work.
So let's settle it this way: I acknowledge the risk, but I still think that a decent DM would be able to avoid it with little problems, for example by making you pay for the (semi-total) absence of an active Leader.

JaxGaret
2008-07-22, 03:37 AM
Semigod

Is that like a Quasigod? :smallsmile:

Aquillion
2008-07-22, 03:58 AM
Almost every broken combo in the game right now is based on Divine Miracle. It's not ok when there is almost no reason not to go with Demigod.Well, there is the fact that you only get it at level 30. The other Demigod powers aren't nearly so overwhelming.

But the real broken part of it, to me, is that you can use it unlimited times per round. The thing is, there are some powers that don't take an action to use... Divine Miracle lets you use them limitlessly. For instance, Divine Miracle + Elven Accuracy lets you reroll every attack until you hit. Divine Miracle + Pray for More lets you reroll every attack until you do max damage. Divine Miracle + Elven Accuracy + Pray for More + Vorpal Weapon == ...

Have they errated vorpal weapons like the above? Even if they do, though, being able to regain powers that take no action to use limitless times per round is broken -- not 'theoretically broken' like being able to spam a lockdown power each turn, but 'broken broken' like it does something that breaks the game. At the very least, Divine Miracle needs to be errated to state something like 'you can't use the regained power until the start of your next turn' (preventing you from producing infinite loops or using a power endlessly.)

Viruzzo
2008-07-22, 04:12 AM
Is that like a Quasigod? :smallsmile:
Demigod (english) + Semidio (italian) = Semigod. :smallbiggrin: Sounds quite good actually...

Isomenes
2008-07-22, 05:36 AM
But is she a Hemi?

Crow
2008-07-22, 10:54 AM
To those who say "It's level 30, they should be able to do this crap": The level 30 demigod power blows every other epic destiny lvl30 power out of the water. It is unbalanced.

For Viruzzo: You don't need an entire party of Stunlockers, just a couple characters who can hit fairly reliably with it. Ways players can achieve stun:
Anvil of Doom (Level 13 Fighter Encounter) (hammer or mace) (one creature) (until the end of your next turn)
Confounding Arrows (Level 15 Ranger Daily) (Dex Ranged) (one creature ) (save ends)
Channel Divinity: Pelor’s Radiance (Feat Power) (undead inside Close Burst 1,3, or 5) end of your next turn
Cruel Cage of Steel (Level 19 Ranger Daily) (Strength dual wielding) (one target) (until the end of your next turm)
Death Rend (Level 27 Ranger Encounter) (Strength dual wielding) (one creature) (until the end of your next turn)
Destructive Salutation (Level 20 Blood Mage Daily) (Area burst 3 within 20 squares) (save ends) (miss causes until the end of your next turn)
Hurl through Hell (Level 29 Warlock Daily) (Constitution) (one creature) (save ends)
Ice Tomb (Level 17 Wizard Encounter) (one creature) (end of your next turn)
Legion’s Hold (Level 29 Wizard Daily) (Close Burst 20) (save ends)
Long Fall Into Darkness (Level 20 Doomsayer Daily) (Charisma) (one creature) (end of its next turn)
Perfect Strike (Level 27 Rogue Encounter) (Dex rogue weapon) (one creature) (until the end of your next turn)
Prismatic Spray (Level 25 Wizard Daily) (close burst 5) (save ends)
Sacred Word (Level 25 Cleric Daily) (wisdom implement) (Close Burst 5) (until the end of your next turn)
Seal of binding (Level 25 Cleric Daily) (wisdom implement) (one creature) (as long as effect is sustained)
Solar Wrath (Level 11 Radiant Servant Encounter) (Undead and Demons inside close burst 8) (until the end of your next turn)
Stunning Smite (Level 27 Paladin Encounter) (strength weapon) (enemies adjacent to you) (until the end of your next turn)
Stunning Steel (Level 15 Ranger Daily) (Strength dual wielding) (one or two creatures) (save ends)
Stunning Strike (Level 13 Rogue Encounter) (Dex light blade melee) (one creature) (until the end of your next turn)
Thirteen Baleful Stars (Level 25 Warlock Daily) (constitution) (one creature) (until the end of your next turn)
Thunderclap (Level 23 Wizard Encounter) (one creature) (until the end of your next turn)