The Imperial Order Vs. Mordor

[Steven the Lich]

The Imperial Order has found a magical rift in the border of the New World and Old World, and sent a scouting party through to discover an entirely new and alien land. They now seek to conquer the new domain, to gather new spoils to help them in the war against D'hara, which Emperor Jagang decided to halt war with for now, considering it not much of a threat without Richard Rahl to lead them. They soon learned, however, that they were not the only ones in the new land they found.
Sauron's all seeing eye detected the massive force entering, and considered it a threat to his plans of domination, and thus he moblized his forces to confront the new enemy. The Imperial Order had a small skirmish with the forces of Mordor, and they decided that if they wanted the new domain, they would need to destroy the savage natives which acted so hostile to them. And Jagang grins as he has found a new worthy opponent. Thus begins a new conflict.

The Imperial Order is a kingdom in the world of the Sword of Truth series, led by the Dreamwalker Jagang, who has the ability to possess spellcasters under his control. The numbers of his army reaches the millions by a good guess. He has at his disposal the Sisters, magic users who have at their disposal two different types of magic depending on whther it is the Dark Sisters or the Sisters of Light. These two magic are Addictive magic or Subtractive (The more rare of the two). Like the names imply, Addictive creates, Subtractive removes. They are forced into the numbers of the Imperial Order through Jagangs powers.
Also in his forces are wizards, of varying power and age. Their grasp is on Addictive magic.
Jagang can take to the field without being there by possessing the minds of the wizards he has under his power.
There is no resisting his power... the only way you can have freedom is if there is a dismissal of magic throughout the world (Which actually did happen, but those who were under his service dismissed the hope of escaping... stupid Sisters...), or swearing loyalty to Richard Raul, who is a war wizard (Wizard with both kinds of magic, which makes him powerful).
Mordor gets it's lieutenants and generals, Ring Wraiths and such. We all know what Sauron has... after countless debates and vs. Threads with him.

Two vs. Types.
1. Just the Imperial Order vs. Mordor
and...
2. Imperial Order vs. Mordor... and everyone in their worlds against those two. FFA!

So, epic tale vs. epic tale, lets talk politics... and war, and magic, and destruction, etc.
Who wins?

[Emperor Tippy]

The Imperial Order. Mordor can't get to their supply lines without going through the rift (which will be guarded) so they have to defeat the army with unlimited replacements.

And fighting the IO is a loosing proposition because of magic. Most any of the Sisters of the Dark could wipe out an unprotected army on their own, as a linked group they could incinerate everything from their toes to the horizon in all directions. Mordor just doesn't have enough magic users to counter the IO's.

[warty goblin]

I am just a little intrigued as to what would happen when Jagang tried to take control of Sauron's mind, since Sauron is undeniably a spellcaster. There is precident for humans surviving direct contact with the mind of things as evil (actually moreso) than Sauron, Hurin survived Morgoth's mind after all, but something tells me that Hurin > Jagang in terms of willpower et cetera. My guess is that such contact would be rather Palantir-like in nature, and, as such, would result in Jagang's mind being roasted until enthralled.

Also, without a near limitless supply of viewpoint characters to almost rape, it is unclear to me how the Imperial Order can hope to actually conquer anything.

[Bago!!!]

Interesting.... almost as interesting as a vs. thread between Gandalf and Zedd.... hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm................



Anyway.... I would say Imperial Order. They have incredible resources at their command, massive numbers, (easily in the millions), brilliant leadership, a great deal of spell casters with destructive capablities, an empire that expands far and wide with resources that he has yet to really draw upon, and a dreamwalker, which in itself is a terrifying thing.

Its also terrifying to know that the sisters have the capabilities of slaughtering many without being stopped. The Ring Wraiths would hardly stand a chance, since the sisters could simply unmake them with their subtractive magics.



If Jagang tried to control Sauron, I think he may very well succeed! Terrifying as it is, Jagang is a dreamwalker at his full potential, and controlling spellcasters seems to be his specialty. And as far as I know, no one has ever resisted Jagang's control without the Bond to Richard. And Jagang is not ordinary human, he is a dream walker with the knowledge of many years and many people at his command.

[warty goblin]

If Jagang tried to control Sauron, I think he may very well succeed! Terrifying as it is, Jagang is a dreamwalker at his full potential, and controlling spellcasters seems to be his specialty. And as far as I know, no one has ever resisted Jagang's control without the Bond to Richard. And Jagang is not ordinary human, he is a dream walker with the knowledge of many years and many people at his command.

I'm really not sure of this, remember what happened to Saruman when he came into contact with Sauron's mind, he was pretty much folded up like a damp tissue under a concrete mixer- and Saruman knew what Sauron was. Hell contact through the Palantir for only a few seconds nearly killed Pippin, who, being a hobbit, is far more resiliant than most humans. Gandalf the White on the Seat of Hearing was only able to allow Frodo to choose between himself and Sauron in the moments before his mind broke, and Gandalf the White is no slouch at the willpower thing, along with the help of a powerful magical location, yet was unable to actually win decisively. Also note Gandalf's abiding fear of the Palantir

Add to this that the only [proven] defense against Sauron's will is goodness, and I'm not seeing much chance of Jagang surviving the experience, since I don't think anyone can make much of an argument that Jagang isn't an evil bastard. Even being a goody-two-shoes isn't exactly proof though, see what happened to Frodo

[Emperor Tippy]

Will has nothing at all to do with resisting Jagang. There is no way to resist. The only defense is being bonded to the Lord Rahl, and that is not something that Sauron would do. Now the fact that Sauron isn't human might mean that he is immune, but we have no idea how dreamwalking interacts with non humans so that is a moot point.

And whether or not Jagang can mind rape Sauron is irrelevant, his Sisters of the Dark have the power to level Mordor.

[Steven the Lich]

I honestly do not believe Jagang can possess Sauron simply like that. Sauron is the Lord of Evil in Middle Earth (current one), and a demigod to boot. He is beyond mortal limits, and survives an cataclysm caused by the Valar to sink Numenor. Sauron himself is a good manipulator, and has done his own share of unspeakable deeds. I am not saying Sauron would win, because while I believe if Jagang tried to overcome the will of Sauron, he would fade because of Saurons intense evil.
Granted, Jagangs mind control stretches to all spellcasters easily, but I think that Sauron would likely be immune to it. The ring wraiths would be immune as well, since they are bound to Sauron.
I also question the power of Subtractive magic, with the simplest question... Does it actually have the power to unmake a being? Because if so, how could they lose in their own world? I do not believe it is that simple.

[Emperor Tippy]

I honestly do not believe Jagang can possess Sauron simply like that. Sauron is the Lord of Evil in Middle Earth (current one), and a demigod to boot.
His being a demigod might provide immunity, none of the rest will.


He is beyond mortal limits, and survives an cataclysm caused by the Valar to sink Numenor. Sauron himself is a good manipulator, and has done his own share of unspeakable deeds. I am not saying Sauron would win, because while I believe if Jagang tried to overcome the will of Sauron, he would fade because of Saurons intense evil.
Again, its all irrelevant. The person being mind raped is irrelevant. That person can't effect the dreamwalker in any way. This is really a simple question; Either Sauron can be effected or he is immune. If he is effected then he will have no thought that Jagang doesn't want him to have.


Granted, Jagangs mind control stretches to all spellcasters easily, but I think that Sauron would likely be immune to it. The ring wraiths would be immune as well, since they are bound to Sauron.
Doubtful.


I also question the power of Subtractive magic, with the simplest question... Does it actually have the power to unmake a being? Because if so, how could they lose in their own world? I do not believe it is that simple.

Subtractive magic can unmake anything. As for how they lost, they were up against magic users of similar power who were opposed to them and a war wizard who was head and shoulders above them power wise. And they were still winning until said war wizard went and got the power of God and defeated them with it.

[Steven the Lich]

Got the power of god... Ah man, spoiler. I didn't read that far. :smallfrown:


Doubtful. If Sauron is immune, it only makes sense that his most personal and elite men who are bound to his very existence share in that benefit.


As for how they lost, they were up against magic users of similar power who were opposed to them and a war wizard who was head and shoulders above them power wise. If they could simply unmake someone with the wave of a hand, the D'Haran forces shoud've been decimated before Kahlan came back to lead them, and before that Richard was absent for a long time. There is not much evidence saying that they can actually unmake a person altogether.

I believe that in numbers, Mordor and the IO are equally matched. Mordor has nearly infinite reinforcements, and IO shares in that benefit. Note that Mordor has it's own special units as well, that would balance out the spellcaster benefit the IO has. The IO lacks magical creatures in their ranks. They also don't have flying units with arrows that can cause comas or worse.

[Bago!!!]

Steve, read up on Subtractive magic. It has the power to unmake anything. The thing is, Richard had it, the sisters of the light who served richard were no slouches, Kahlan had a little bit at her command, Zedd was helping them and he had hell of alot of experiance in a war between armies and wizards, plus the terrain proved to be incredibly useful.

I agree with Tippy. The only way Sauron may be able to not be taken over if Jagang tried to rule over him. The only set back to being a dreamwalker is that your limited to who you can control. Non-spellcasters? Almost out of the question! He can still possess one, but it requires tremendous effort.

Willpower means little here. Jagang would be able to command Gandalf, Saruman, and just about anyone else who can use magic without so much as batting an eye. Will power? Means nothing in the face of a dreamwalker. Part of the reason why dreamwalkers were so effective in the wars before the sword of truth series.

As for number of troops, the imperial army easiy has millions, and they haven't even drew upon any real reserves. Mordor, they could produce that many if given the time, but thats not too hopeful. And can I just say that the Sisters of the Dark can just about destroy any special unit that Sauron can command. The Sisters of the Dark are, without an inkling of doubt, the most powerful tool on the field. And without any spellcasters on Sauron's side to counter the spells, there could be devastating consequences.

The Ring Wraiths may be immune, if for nothing else but the simple fact that they are kinda already dead.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Sunbtractive magic can unmake anything which they never really use when they are facing no-one who can oppose it and when they face someone who can oppose it they cannot use it either...

Not sure but that sounds like we need to use THEIR powers and OUR tactics and strategies to make them effective...

Another example of where we playgrounders can take those super powers and somehow NOW they are super but if the people who are supposed to have it and use it try they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag...

[Bago!!!]

Actuelly, the sisters of the dark used subtractive magic, its just that they could still be countered by the other sisters or Richard could easily deflect or Jagang stopped them all together.

And their tactics worked wonders till Kahlan came and lead them. And before, Zedd was leading them, an experiance wizard who fought a war against Rahl, which was basically the same battle, which was to counter whatever magic Rahl and his casters could come up with, providing a balance of power on the field. Without that balance, it would all go to hell. On this, we have spell casters on one side, and none on the other. That means that the orcs are nothing but targets! Additive magic alone is immensely dangerous. Wizard fire for the win?

[WhiteKnight777]

Can we agree that Sauron wins by virtue of not being part of a series that's basically Objectivist propaganda and bondage porn? :smalltongue:

In all seriousness... I'm (Obviously) not a fan of Sword of Truth (Mostly for the above reasons... I dislike Ayn Rand's political theories, and Goodkind has a tendency to try to cram them down one's throat in the series.) But this seems like a bit of a mismatch, power-wise. It's like setting The Culture up against The Federation from Star Trek.

[Mr. Scaly]

Whiteknight, I'm honestly not sure about that, General crappiness and 'my readers are morons' attitude aside, the Imperial Order actually does seem to match Sauron in numbers at least and the average soldiers looks to be on par with an orc.

On the other hand I may find myself rooting for Sauron this time just because he's less of an ass about being evil.

[Bago!!!]

If I may just say, Jagang believes that he is good. Sauron knows he's evil. And I for one don't see him as an ass for being evil. Just very brutal, arrogant, proud, zealous, and powerhungry.

Mismatch? Probally. But I've seen my fair share of unfair vs threads, most of them revolving around LOTR's favor.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well that's the thing. He sees himself as good but he deliberately goes out of his way to be more brutal and cruel than he needs to be when taking things over. I remember what happened to that one city at the edge of the Old World...and they'd wanted to stay neutral! And he sees himself as good?!

This ain't no mismatch. Orcs vs. Men. Even fight. Trolls vs Mriswith. Still pretty even though harder to tell how that would end up. Wraiths vs Magic. Magic actually hurts the dang things most times. Only mismatch is if Jagang tries confronting Sauron personally.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well that's the thing. He sees himself as good but he deliberately goes out of his way to be more brutal and cruel than he needs to be when taking things over. I remember what happened to that one city at the edge of the Old World...and they'd wanted to stay neutral! And he sees himself as good?!

This ain't no mismatch. Orcs vs. Men. Even fight. Trolls vs Mriswith. Still pretty even though harder to tell how that would end up. Wraiths vs Magic. Magic actually hurts the dang things most times. Only mismatch is if Jagang tries confronting Sauron personally.

No, magic is the miss match. The IO's casters could deal with the entire might of Mordor in an afternoon without a problem. The Sisters of the Dark can literally turn everything from their toes to the horizon into a flat, featureless, perfectly level plane. Armies, mountains, whatever, it's all gone as if it never was.

[Bago!!!]

Et has gist of it.


If you have a cause, you go to great lengths to insure your cause's success. Neutral people? They could very well be a liability against and for you. And if your trying to take over the world and you have all the resources in the world, so you don't need allies, why leave one guy alone for a while when you could easily deal with him/her? More resources almost free without any cost. Something that is always good if you don't want to tax your own supplies.

And lets not forget, he thinks his cause rightous, himself probally not so much but he doesn't care. His belief is that man is cruel and that the creator is perfect, and that man must work hard to better other men. He's a sadistic cruel bastard at heart and takes too much pleasure in what he does. There are people like that.

[WhiteKnight777]

No, magic is the miss match. The IO's casters could deal with the entire might of Mordor in an afternoon without a problem. The Sisters of the Dark can literally turn everything from their toes to the horizon into a flat, featureless, perfectly level plane. Armies, mountains, whatever, it's all gone as if it never was.

This was my point. The Imperial Order has ridiculous Deus Ex Machina power. A working "I Win" button, if you will.

That said, I still maintain Sauron wins by virtue of being part of a series that's actually well-written. :smallbiggrin:

[Bago!!!]

And I maintain that the series was a good series. Tolkien's may be better, but thats not what is at trial here. :smallwink:

They have about as much Deus Ex Machina power as Morder does. They just have it in a more FLASHY form.

[WhiteKnight777]

And I maintain that the series was a good series. Tolkien's may be better, but thats not what is at trial here. :smallwink:

They have about as much Deus Ex Machina power as Morder does. They just have it in a more FLASHY form.

... The power to instantly reshape reality as you will is a bit more powerful than anything Mordor demonstrates.

I won't try to convince you that it's a bad series - that's a futile sort of endeavor in my experience... but it always felt extremely pretentious - an impression the author did not help to alleviate with some of his commentary. And a lot of it just felt gratuitous, not to mention the many characters who were... unsympathetic, to say the least.

[FoE]

Orcs are a metaphor for Communists or something, right? Maybe Nazis? No matter, they're enemies of Life, so Richard will have to destroy them. The One Ring is no match for Richard's moral clarity and amazing Mary Sue powers. :smalltongue:

[Bago!!!]

Oh thats no doubt, but the inevitable end by the hand of morder, the shield of the WK, the manipulation of the ring to those weaker beings... Both worlds have pretty powerful Deus Ex Machinima



Its impossible to change one's oppinion unless they want to change it. I dunno what you meant with pretentious exactly, but there a great deal of scenes I thought the heros became cold hearted. I never seen his commentary, nor any other author's. I don't agree with most of the author's views, but I find it to be a good read.
But, I guess we can agree to disagree. :smallsmile:

[WhiteKnight777]

Oh thats no doubt, but the inevitable end by the hand of morder, the shield of the WK, the manipulation of the ring to those weaker beings... Both worlds have pretty powerful Deus Ex Machinima



Its impossible to change one's oppinion unless they want to change it. I dunno what you meant with pretentious exactly, but there a great deal of scenes I thought the heros became cold hearted. I never seen his commentary, nor any other author's. I don't agree with most of the author's views, but I find it to be a good read.
But, I guess we can agree to disagree. :smallsmile:

The author has made statements to the effect that he "doesn't write fantasy", and frankly the whole series is a thinly-veiled dissertation on why objectivisim is the only correct political theory.

Of course, the latter is merely my opinion. The overdone bondage porn scenes don't help its credibility in my mind, either.

[Gavin Sage]

Nobody in Tolkien's world of any power has "magic" or such base cheap conjuring of tricks, thus Jagang has no power over anyone there.

And counting only villanous forces Jagang has no way to destroy the One Ring (since nobody evil would stand the corruption) thus Sauron cannot be killed. So even if the faceless legions of the IO break Barad-Dur asunder and scatter the hosts of Mordor, sooner or later the whole place is going to be nothing more then a recruiting ground for Sauron's legions.

Jagang needs to get Gary Stu... err I mean Richard Rahl to destroy the Ring for him to win. Because a being that saw the creation of time is no match for the philosophical expy of Ayn Rand. Oh and LOTR heroes will get together with Gandalf and Zedd, then Aragorn will promptly abdicate his rights to Richard as the true king of Gondor... because Richard is a special person.

[Bago!!!]

Gandalf doesn't have it? Nor Saruman?

Actuelly, yes he can because he can indirectly manipulate his minions and force them to toss them into the fires of mount doom. And even if he can't he can simply keep killing him over and over again, wipe all orcs off the face of the worlds, and all loyal minions would be subjugated eventually.




Political theories mean nothing to me.

It is true that the whole bondage thing is over done.
I still find the books entertaining, and I enjoy reading about Zedd! BEST WIZARD EVAR!

[Gavin Sage]

Gandalf doesn't have it? Nor Saruman?

Nope.


Actuelly, yes he can because he can indirectly manipulate his minions and force them to toss them into the fires of mount doom. And even if he can't he can simply keep killing him over and over again, wipe all orcs off the face of the worlds, and all loyal minions would be subjugated eventually.

Jagang dies of old age, Sauron wins. Or Sauron makes nice with Jagang and send him a ring. Either way the emperor is human afterall. What's a few decades when you've already lived through multiple millenia and that's merely recorded history.

[Bago!!!]

Then their not demi-gods or wizards.


Not so. There is a way he almost gained complete and total immortality, and I am under the impression that option is still open if he goes on this whole mission. Whats a few 100 thousand years if you slow time at your palace to almost a 1/100000000000000000 of its normal capacity?\



Still doesn't change the fact that the magic users on Jagang's side would utterly destroy Sauron's army.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Technically Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf and others (like Radagast) are Maia. They're not wizards or spellcasters. They're technically minor god-like beings (I read "beings of angelic order" somewhere although I don't know whether this comes from Tolkien himself or from some other source).

The only difference (aside from alignment) between "wizards" like Gandalf/Saruman and Sauron is that the first two were prohibited by Vala from using their powers and were only supposed to inspire the people of Middle Earth and help them fight evil. They don't do any magic. Sauron though doesn't have such restraints and he used his power quite a bit before locking it up inside a ring for some weird reason (aka plot).

On topic wise - can't say anything. I haven't read the Sword of Truth series. I'm just saying that the Dreamwalker wouldn't have anyone in LotR universe to possess since none of them are technically casters.

[Gavin Sage]

Tolkien never used angelic but essentially yeah, its not "magic" as we consider it or has been done in almost every fantasy since then. This is also rather a subtle but important plot-point for Middle-Earth. So Jagang has no one to possess there since no one is Gifted, or rather would be wasting his time since. Or feeding right into Sauron hands by trying to do it on the Eye itself.

And the army is irrelevant since as long as Sauron doesn't die (and he won't without heroic assistance, which would mean a Richard Purity Sue win anyways) he can just convert. It, raises the masses of the IO against Jagang, or even corrupt Jagang himself. Jagang shares much with the men of Numenor. Who knows Sauron might make his own personal addition to Jagangs jewelry, a dream walker Nazgul is not a pleasant thought.

And slowing time was only done at one location, which was blown up. I remember plans for building but they weren't complete right? Or did they in the later books. If not we have no garuntee Jagang would pull it off, or that a radical slowing to the point of nigh immortality is possible. Plus to much and governing would be impossible since you'd be bombarded by constant problems as days ticked by outside to your minutes.

[snoopy13a]

Orcs are not equal to men. Denethor wonders how mere orcs were able to kill Boromir so Pippin has to explain that they were vastly outnumbered and the orcs were shooting arrows at Boromir. Of course, Boromir was one the great warriors in Middle Earth but still, the average orc isn't too tough.

An army in the millions sounds like it would defeat Sauron. However, Sauron is a clever one. He'd probably pretend to give in and worm his way into the other side's favor. This is pretty much what he did when the Numenoreans decided to conquer Mordor. Over time, he might actually take control of the Imperial Order from within.

This is also a little used I-Win button in Middle Earth but it is used by the good guys. Remember what happened when the Numenoreans got the bright idea to invade Aman. If these millions of people came into Middle Earth then old Manwe might call up Eru for another favor.

[Bago!!!]

Alright, then after all orcs, trolls and servants of sauron are utterly extinct, he possesses one of his own minions to jump into the fires of mount doom with the ring.

Jagang won't allow anyone with any real power that he can't control into his army or on his side. And he would consider Sauron, whether true or false, a being of magic. Someone he probally won't be able to control, so he would destroy him instead of let him on his good side.

And how is it not magic? How is the power that they possess not magic?

[WhiteKnight777]

Orcs are not equal to men. Denethor wonders how mere orcs were able to kill Boromir so Pippin has to explain that they were vastly outnumbered and the orcs were shooting arrows at Boromir. Of course, Boromir was one the great warriors in Middle Earth but still, the average orc isn't too tough.

....

This is also a little used I-Win button in Middle Earth but it is used by the good guys. Remember what happened when the Numenoreans got the bright idea to invade Aman. If these millions of people came into Middle Earth then old Manwe might call up Eru for another favor.

Orcs aren't terrible fighters by any means. It's just that when we see them, they're fighting incredibly potent warriors. Also, remember that Denethor was extremely overconfident when it came to Boromir, so even considering his prowess, Denethor's reaction is less a detriment to the orcs and more a testament to his own arrogance regarding his favorite child.



And how is it not magic? How is the power that they possess not magic?

They're powers of creation granted to them by Eru, the One, AKA God. It's quite a bit different from, say, the powers that Galadriel possesses. It's stuff that's officially beyond mortal ken. Or even immortal ken, in the case of the elves.


And frankly, no matter how good Jagang is, Sauron is just plain older, wiser, and smarter. The only reason he lost is because of his own arrogance and lack of understanding of the altruistic nature of his enemies... since Jagang is far from altruistic, Sauron, being the master corruptor that he is, will find some way to corrupt him. Sauron's greatest skill is as a deceiver, remember. He could probably convince Jagang that he could control him. He did it to the Numenoreans, and they'd had experience in dealing with him before.

[Don Julio Anejo]

And how is it not magic? How is the power that they possess not magic?
By most conventions a magician in fantasy is someone who manipulates some kind of energy/runes/force/etc through either spells or willpower to do something (like make a fireball or make the broomstick fly).

Maia, on the other hand, don't do it. For them "doing magic" is simply being themselves.... for example an intelligent fish might think of us being magic superior beings because we can manipulate stuff with our hands but the fish can't because it doesn't have hands.

[Emperor Tippy]

Whether or not Jagang can take over any of the Middle Earth people is debatable but ultimately irrelevant.

His gifted are an "I win" button. They can erase Mount Doom or the one ring or anything else from existence without a real problem.

[WhiteKnight777]

Whether or not Jagang can take over any of the Middle Earth people is debatable but ultimately irrelevant.

His gifted are an "I win" button. They can erase Mount Doom or the one ring or anything else from existence without a real problem.

To be fair, though, if he were to start erasing parts of Middle Earth, I'm sure Illuvatar would step in and curb-stomp him.

[Bago!!!]

Not really. If they wanted to intervene at all, they probally would have done it during the 3rd age, you know? When Sauron was basically taking over and corrupting the kingdoms of man?


I thought the whole point of magic in LOTR was will power? That was what I have been argueing against for about a year or two.

And Jagang is wise, is smart, and is experianced. He took over the entire old world, he has the knowledge of all of those he controls and has walked through the halls of prophets through the minds of others.

Fish don't make light FLASH or make Balrogs or make twisted elves or make bolts of lightening. Nor do we.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Maybe it is willpower. It's not really the point. They don't use spells or magic per se. They're just fighting in a way that we (humans) can't really see. For one thing, we can't kill one another with willpower.

As for fish - suppose a fish needs to move an object.. It could shove it with its' nose or grip it in the mouth. But what happens if said fish needs to move the object upwards or manipulate it at the same time? All a human has to do is put it in one hand and manipulate it with the other. To do the same thing a fish would need to use "magic (telekinesis for example)," since it doesn't have the same abilities as us.

It's the same with humans and flying... sure, they can make airplanes or use magic to levitate (in fantasy obviously), but it's completely natural to birds and a part of their being birds.

IMO it's the same with Maia vs. human wizards.

[Bago!!!]

No, this is most definately magic. Just because there are no spells does not mean there is no magic. The forces miai? command are supernatural and should be considered magic. Heck, they have raising the spirits magic.

The whole fish arguement can only get you so far. If they were doing stuff like complete top stop, telekinisis or something that Q would do, then maybe it wouldn't be magic. But instead, they have the twisting of elves into orcs, bright flashes of light, pinecone gernades, necromancy, and the power of scrying. Its magic. Its just not arcane magic.

[Jaxile]

I won't try to convince you that it's a bad series...

I will. Or rather, I will direct you in the proper direction...

Goodkind XXXIX: Ledgend of the Yeard (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=30019)

The 39th thread heralding all things worthy in Goodkind's 'books'.
Beware, death choosers!

**WARNING**
The Westeros boards partake in religious discussion daily! Often in political threads!

[Bago!!!]

Jaxile, what is that thread? I looked through the first page and I said, "What the heck are they talking about?"
It made little sense in general.

These guys didn't give any particular logic or reason behind their dislike to the book. And theres 10 pages of it? I don't have the time to read through this.

After reading the first page, my opinion on the series is still unchanged.

[Mr. Scaly]

Yeards? The heck you say?

So now we're talking about the SoT series instead of the match up? Because to me the series ends with the fourth book. All the rest is mindless crap that cheapens what came before.

[WhiteKnight777]

No, this is most definately magic. Just because there are no spells does not mean there is no magic. The forces miai? command are supernatural and should be considered magic. Heck, they have raising the spirits magic.

The whole fish arguement can only get you so far. If they were doing stuff like complete top stop, telekinisis or something that Q would do, then maybe it wouldn't be magic. But instead, they have the twisting of elves into orcs, bright flashes of light, pinecone gernades, necromancy, and the power of scrying. Its magic. Its just not arcane magic.

Just because it looks like magic doesn't mean it's a kind of magic that the Imperial Order can use/manipulate/sense/control. The powers they have are simply part of their very being, not a manipulation of some external force or tapping an outside source of power, which is generally what magic relies upon.

[Bago!!!]

Magic is magic, no matter how one controls it. Not all creatures tap into an outside source. Some creatures in the ST Series use magic like the Maia (Not as powerful mind you).


Magic is part of every being in the ST series. Every being. Jagang can control his own soldiers (Though its most difficult) except those protected by Richards Oath. Only a few are totally free. A whole nation and Richard's sister (I think).


My point is, even though the manipulate it than a sorcereress or wizard, Tolkien's wizards may very well be more vulnerable than most, since magic is intertwined with themselves. 'Magic' does not rely on tapping of other power. Not always.

[Sholos]

You're missing the point. They Maia don't "control it" anymore than you control your own body. They simply have abilities that are superhuman.

[Bago!!!]

But those abilities are from the use of magic.

[Sholos]

No, it's not. It's not magic. No one else can do things like that. The things they do are just their abilities.

[Geddoe]

That said, I still maintain Sauron wins by virtue of being part of a series that's actually well-written. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I don't know about that.

[WhiteKnight777]

Well, I don't know about that.

You're free to disagree, of course. But I maintain that LoTR is a classic of literature, whereas Sword of Truth is not. Of course, that's subjective and I'm generally just being a smartarse for the fun of it.

[Sholos]

I would actually argue that while the plot and concept of LOTR are very, very good, the actual books are of only mediocre-to-good quality. Tolkien did not know how to stop describing things at an appropriate time.

[Geddoe]

I would actually argue that while the plot and concept of LOTR are very, very good, the actual books are of only mediocre-to-good quality. Tolkien did not know how to stop describing things at an appropriate time.
Indeed. I found both series to be pretty bad.

[Bago!!!]

No, its magic. Just because only they can use it doesn't make it not magic.

Heck, elves can use it, to a degree. They can use it. There are loads of settings where magic is only used by a small population or a specific group. Just because only a few can use the magic, and that they are not human, doesn't mean that its not magic.

Why would magic it be considered not magic if only the gods, demi gods, and Elves could use it?




LOTR is a classic, though some scenes I found lacking emotion. Like, Gandalf's fall. But I still enjoyed the books a great deal, and the movies were pretty neat.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Dude. Suppose there's a mage and a bird. A mage is using telekinesis to fly. Is the bird also using magic?

[GoC]

Sauron's greatest skill is as a deceiver, remember. He could probably convince Jagang that he could control him. He did it to the Numenoreans, and they'd had experience in dealing with him before.

They didn't know he was evil. And given five years even I could have corrupted them. It is human nature to want to be on top, second to none.


No, it's not. It's not magic. No one else can do things like that. The things they do are just their abilities.

So they're metahumans?
Interesting...:smallamused:

[Sholos]

They didn't know he was evil. And given five years even I could have corrupted them. It is human nature to want to be on top, second to none.

They didn't know he was evil the second time around?


So they're metahumans?
Interesting...:smallamused:

Not exactly, but it's a decent enough comparison for the purposes of detailing exactly why they don't use magic as typically understood.

[DraPrime]

Hold on, wouldn't the sisters of the dark lose their subtractive magic simply because the Keeper doesn't exist in Middle Earth, so he won't be able to provide them with that kind of magic?

[Mr. Scaly]

Hold on, wouldn't the sisters of the dark lose their subtractive magic simply because the Keeper doesn't exist in Middle Earth, so he won't be able to provide them with that kind of magic?

Or more interestingly, if The Keeper is some kind of generic embodiment of death that stretches across the multiverse, would they get their powers from Morgoth or Sauron or whoever 'the Devil' is on Middle Earth?

[Bago!!!]

No, which is the difference between the mage and the bird. The bird uses everyday abilities while the mage uses what we would call supernatural abilities.

The bird has the instinct and the tools to fly on his own without calling supernatural powers. Its totally normal to humans and other races who are not in possession of this power.

The mage calls upon supernatural abilities, whether from another source or from himself, is still using supernatural power, which is the very deffinition of magic. Though he would think it normal, it is still a supernatural power that we would consider magical in effect.


I would say the keeper's power would extend with their followers or something along those lines.

[Sholos]

No, which is the difference between the mage and the bird. The bird uses everyday abilities while the mage uses what we would call supernatural abilities.

The bird has the instinct and the tools to fly on his own without calling supernatural powers. Its totally normal to humans and other races who are not in possession of this power.

The mage calls upon supernatural abilities, whether from another source or from himself, is still using supernatural power, which is the very deffinition of magic. Though he would think it normal, it is still a supernatural power that we would consider magical in effect.

Very, very good. Now, realize that in that analogy, the Maia are the birds.



I would say the keeper's power would extend with their followers or something along those lines.

Is there any reason to believe this besides making it so the invading force is "only" a few million people?

[Eita]

The Keeper's powers should not transcend dimensions. The Keeper is foreign to Middle-Earth, and holds no power there. Why? Because Eru said so.

Now then, as for magic, the Maia use their willpower to use their inherent abilities. It's like you willing your arm to move. Except that a continent moves. The Maia and Valar are tied into the very fabric of the universe, they are beings that have existed before the very beginning of time. When they use 'magic', they pretty much just move a thread of reality.

[snoopy13a]

Or more interestingly, if The Keeper is some kind of generic embodiment of death that stretches across the multiverse, would they get their powers from Morgoth or Sauron or whoever 'the Devil' is on Middle Earth?

Death isn't a bad thing in Middle Earth. It is called the "gift of Man" and is actually a good thing. However, Melkor (and later Sauron) twisted the views of men so they fear death. So, the evil forces in Middle Earth do not control death (as it is a positive) but rather exploit men's fears of it to increase their power.

[Bago!!!]

If the maian is the bird, then lets think the dodo as the man. It looks at the bird flying and thinks, "Thats magic!" Thats from our view. It is magic, because they are supernatural beings from our view. Magic's very diffinition is supernatural.


Their willpower and abilities seem normal to them, much like it would seem normal to a dragon's abilities. Or, rather a dieties' abilities. But from the stand point of man, "HOLY ****! HOW DID THAT DRAGON MAKE ALL MY WATER VANISH!" The same thing in all other worlds, except the magic is needed to be taken from elsewhere. But that doesn't make it more or less than magic. Just because they think that moving a continent with their very willpower is normal doesn't make use think that.


I would rather have the keeper's abilities transcend diminsions. Why? Cause thats how its been in every thread I've came across. Even though its another world, the WK's shield is maintained no matter where its been, even though its not at all like other magic.


A few million? Hardly. And thats not even really taking a toll on his forces. He could draft even more troops into the army to make it even larger, but he doesn't because its his own forces.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Bago, we're not denying it looks like magic from a person's perspective (hence, they're also called wizards in LotR). But we're saying that for Maia it's completely natural and instinctive. For humans it's not, they have to learn how to do it, and chances are, it's not something any human can do which means humans don't have (on average) innate magical abilities.

Also, stupid question, but if The Imperial Order is an army numbering in the millions, how do they solve logistical problems? You'd need a railroad at least to supply troops, and even then... But I assume the Imperial Order doesn't have railroads or trucks or magic portals or other stuff that lets them move thousands of tons of food per day, otherwise they would also have weapons on the same technological level as said railroads.

How would they be able to operate with an army that big in Middle Earth?

[Mr. Scaly]

Death isn't a bad thing in Middle Earth. It is called the "gift of Man" and is actually a good thing. However, Melkor (and later Sauron) twisted the views of men so they fear death. So, the evil forces in Middle Earth do not control death (as it is a positive) but rather exploit men's fears of it to increase their power.

Cool. It's always neat to learn more about Middle Earth. Though it leads to a question then.

If it's the Keeper that powers the negative magic of the sisters and other evil casters, and its some kind of godlike being from another universe, can it be assumed that if negative magic still works in ME then it extends some reach into it? On the reverse side would Maiar and ring wraiths and other 'special' beings from ME be able to do their shtick in Goodkindverse? Because divine interference opens up all kinds of cans of worms.

[freerangetroll]

Whether or not the keeper has influence in the loTR realm is a moot point. The sisters do not need continual contact with the Keeper's influence to use subtractive magic. It becomes an ability of theirs after a male wizards powers are stolen (he is killed) and they consumate the rite with a Nimble. They need the Keepers blessing to perform the rite and summon the Nimble, but they don't have some mystical tether to the Keeper in order to sustain their magics.

Part of the compact is pledging fealty to the Keeper however, because they swear oath to him when he grants them the ability to perform the ceremony, and if they break the oath he has claim on them.

[Mr. Scaly]

Whether or not the keeper has influence in the loTR realm is a moot point. The sisters do not need continual contact with the Keeper's influence to use subtractive magic. It becomes an ability of theirs after a male wizards powers are stolen (he is killed) and they consumate the rite with a Nimble. They need the Keepers blessing to perform the rite and summon the Nimble, but they don't have some mystical tether to the Keeper in order to sustain their magics.

Part of the compact is pledging fealty to the Keeper however, because they swear oath to him when he grants them the ability to perform the ceremony, and if they break the oath he has claim on them.

I was thinking more along the lines of either side corrupting and influencing each other.

[freerangetroll]

I was thinking more along the lines of either side corrupting and influencing each other.


Yah, I was going more with Jagang's Sisters just level the place from horizon to horizon.

[Mr. Scaly]

Yah, I was going more with Jagang's Sisters just level the place from horizon to horizon.

Could they really all do that? Last I checked What's-her-name and the bunch whom Jagang enslaved in the third book could but i had the feeling that it was a side effect of the link they had and the harnessing of all their magic at once. Then again it's been years since I read the series...

[DraPrime]

Whether or not the keeper has influence in the loTR realm is a moot point. The sisters do not need continual contact with the Keeper's influence to use subtractive magic. It becomes an ability of theirs after a male wizards powers are stolen (he is killed) and they consumate the rite with a Nimble. They need the Keepers blessing to perform the rite and summon the Nimble, but they don't have some mystical tether to the Keeper in order to sustain their magics.

Part of the compact is pledging fealty to the Keeper however, because they swear oath to him when he grants them the ability to perform the ceremony, and if they break the oath he has claim on them.

Yes, but subtractive magic uses the underworld itself. And you can't really use the underworld if it isn't in middle earth. Of course additive magic can be used because it uses what's already there.

[freerangetroll]

Yes, but subtractive magic uses the underworld itself. And you can't really use the underworld if it isn't in middle earth. Of course additive magic can be used because it uses what's already there.

Wrong. Yes the underworld is where subtractive magic comes from. However the actual ritual allows a residue of the magic to seep into them so to speak. It becomes a part of them. They are not constantly pulling power from the underworld.

Same with Richard and his use of it. The subtractive is a part of him as is the additive.

@ Mr. Scaly, one of them being able to do that? No. A group of them pooling power? Yes.

[Bago!!!]

And I am saying that perhaps some of these beings could be affected by Jagang's power.

They have a sophisticated road system that allows quick travel and supply route to the troops. That, and additive magic could supply the troups indefinately.

I didn't know that about the oath! I mean, I knew they swore an oath but I didn't know it worked like that!

Maians are not the only race who can use magic, as its been demonstrated before by the WK (before he became a wraith I think) and by the elves.


Personally, still see it as magic, but its still supernatural, even if its used by instinct. Moving continents is certainly not normal to us, and it certainly isn't normal by the humans standards in LOTRs.

Bago, we're not denying it looks like magic from a person's perspective (hence, they're also called wizards in LotR). But we're saying that for Maia it's completely natural and instinctive. For humans it's not, they have to learn how to do it, and chances are, it's not something any human can do which means humans don't have (on average) innate magical abilities.

Also, stupid question, but if The Imperial Order is an army numbering in the millions, how do they solve logistical problems? You'd need a railroad at least to supply troops, and even then... But I assume the Imperial Order doesn't have railroads or trucks or magic portals or other stuff that lets them move thousands of tons of food per day, otherwise they would also have weapons on the same technological level as said railroads.

How would they be able to operate with an army that big in Middle Earth?