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Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 01:00 PM
Hey all! Been a while since I've posted anything, but it seems like every time I come on to post something, it's a rant about some new thing my DM has done that tees me off to the point of feeling like I shouldn't feel so teed off and that I'm overreacting to what happened in an adventure or from a rules decision.

Anyway, I suppose I should just go through the happenings of this particular adventure. As a side element that will matter in this little tale, two Sundays ago our DM revealed to us, after we had to cancel a game session because something else had come up with my wife and I that needed to be taken care of on the day of our session, a "brilliant" new idea: If a game ever had to be canceled, for any reason, the timeline of the story would advance without us. Hence, any event that may occur in real world that forces us to reschedule a game is going to cause time to advance in the game world, thereby allowing the villains to get ahead of us and accomplish their evil plots or whatever without our characters having any chance to stop them. Lovely idea, isn't it? Anyway...enough backstory.

Our party is three PCs at level one. Two barbarians and a scout. I know, that sounds like an awful idea having two combat classes and a skills/combat class, but we didn't know at the time of creation that it was gonna turn out like this. At any rate, our characters, after going through a somewhat contrived setup story, have entered a volcano dungeon. As we make our way through it, we discover that most of the enemies have already been killed. After taking out the "boss" monster, we open a secret treasure chest in a hidden chamber at the back of the room only to discover the chest is empty. We are then ambushed by a primary campaign villain who, because of the DM's little time-skip idea I talked of earlier, got to the dungeon several days before us, ransacked it, and took the mask half we had come to collect. He then waited for us to get there to take our half from us. He demanded we relinquish our half, and we refused, at which time he attacked us. We promptly had our butts handed to us, with both barbarians being knocked unconscious and my scout being outright killed. Unfortunately, the killing was done at the hands of one of the barbarian teammates, who had charged the enemy, only to have the enemy dodge and redirect the attack. Post-game, we found out several very enlightening things about this villain:

First, he's level twelve. TWELVE. Against three level ONES. After we protested and said that it was unfair to throw us up against that, his reply was simply that we didn't have to fight the guy and could've simply handed the mask over to begin with.

Second, his attack-redirection was ue to a homebrew feat he had given the villain entitled "Deflecting Dodge" or something along those lines, which would probably be written up something like this: "Once per round, when being flanked and one of the flankers is your current dodge target, you may automatically redirect the attack to the opposing flanker; the attack resolves as normal, using the opposing flanker's AC. The new target gets no chance to dodge this redirected attack."

Third, this villain's class (I got to see his stats, because the DM stupidly forgot to empty my laptop's recycle bin after deleting the villain stats from it) is also homebrew, called the "Shadow Knight." This class gets 3/4 BAB in ADDITION to apparently full arcane spellcasting. This class has access to both Create Undead and Finger of Death one level earlier than any other class I know of in the game, casting them as a level 5 and 6 spell, respectively, because of a specialty in the school of necromancy. After complaining about the power of this class, he responded that he "balanced" it by banning several schools of magic from being used as a result of the necromancy specialty, while not responding at all to the 3/4 BAB + full arcane casting in a base class. I know Finger of Death is also a druid spell, but that only makes it worse since it's normally a level 8 spell for druids.

I know this is a long post, and I apologize for its length, but I wanted to explain in full detail what had happened that has me so irked. What do you guys think? After typing it all out, I think that if anything, I didn't react strongly enough to what he's done...but I still wanted to see what some other gamers outside my normal group thought. Thanks for any replies!

Adumbration
2008-07-20, 01:05 PM
Jeah, I don't know if your DM is out to get you or just detached from... well, reality (of DnD). Or maybe he's just a jerk.

But hey, think positively, now you too can take the Deflecting Dodge. You should also ask about the possibility of playing the Shadow Knight or homebrewing your own class. :smallwink:

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-20, 01:05 PM
He sounds like a really bad DM. Ignoring the level difference, he should have checked that his homebrew stuff was okay with you guys. Why did you end up witha party of 2 Barbarians and a Scout, though?

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 01:12 PM
He sounds like a really bad DM. Ignoring the level difference, he should have checked that his homebrew stuff was okay with you guys. Why did you end up witha party of 2 Barbarians and a Scout, though?
We each made our characters independent of each other, so we really didn't know what each other would have before our first game session. My wife wanted to play a Barbarian, and I wanted to play a skilled class (but not a rogue), and so that was what's behind our choices. Third person had said he was going to jump out of his normal mold of hulking melee character for this game, and I believed him...but then he ended up going with Barbarian, anyway. So...yeah. There ya go.

Randalor
2008-07-20, 01:12 PM
While I can understand where the GM is coming from with his "Time advance" idea *We had one player who skipped two sessions in a row, with no warning, and then claimed it was our fault for "Not planning things in advance"... he's been talked to, and it's been resolved now, thankfully* if it's a legitamite reason why you would be unable to go, I would have waived the timeskip. As for the rest of the stuff... WTH? My players consider me a sadistic GM, and the worst I've done was have them chase around a rogue for 30 minutes.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-20, 01:15 PM
Thanks for explaining, Phillip0614. I don't think the time idea works that well based on the fact that I tend to think that time should only advance in these things when you're playing them.

Sucrose
2008-07-20, 01:15 PM
I'm not sure that the feat was homebrew, actually; one of the options for the tactical feat Elusive Target from the Complete Warrior supplement is at least very similar to that option (don't have that book with me).

That said, his class is b0rked and his assumption that you would give up when the villain's trying to get the Macguffin (along with the rather poor idea of time advancing without you when the group cancels a session) is idiotic.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 01:16 PM
While I can understand where the GM is coming from with his "Time advance" idea *We had one player who skipped two sessions in a row, with no warning, and then claimed it was our fault for "Not planning things in advance"... he's been talked to, and it's been resolved now, thankfully* if it's a legitamite reason why you would be unable to go, I would have waived the timeskip.
I could understand the skipping ahead thing, also, if someone was just skipping a game. The problem is, that isn't what happened here. We gave him advance warning in addition to rescheduling the game, right then and there, for less than a week later. And he still skipped the time ahead. And it wasn't just one person missing. My wife and I both had to miss. There's also the issue of us ALWAYS playing at our house, for some reason or other, and so if we can't play, then there just isn't a game.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 01:20 PM
I'm not sure that the feat was homebrew, actually; one of the options for the tactical feat Elusive Target from the Complete Warrior supplement is at least very similar to that option (don't have that book with me).

After checking CW, you're right. The Elusive Target feat does have the diverting defense option. Still, it makes me go kind of blah, because the only reason he was flanking was because he was charging the guy. So..you're right. Well blah. That kind of deflates my sails a bit.

Moriato
2008-07-20, 01:30 PM
Perhaps you should point out that since the npcs obviously still get to plot and plan and do things during these "time skips", it stands to reason that the players would too. Imagine all the dragons you could mysteriously kill and treasure hoards you could loot with all that time on your hands.

Behold_the_Void
2008-07-20, 01:34 PM
Honestly, this guy sounds like a douche and I wouldn't play with him.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-20, 01:38 PM
this guy is begging for a dickroll :grin:

Waspinator
2008-07-20, 02:01 PM
I get the impression that this is one of those DMs who doesn't understand that D&D is not about trying to kill the players' characters at any cost. Maybe he should buy a copy of Paranoia if that's what he's trying to do.

Yahzi
2008-07-20, 02:17 PM
his reply was simply that we didn't have to fight the guy and could've simply handed the mask over to begin with.
Was it obvious that you didn't have to fight? Was it obvious that you were going to lose?

The DM needs to make these things apparent, so players can make the right decisions. It doesn't sound like that was the case. Anyway, a 12th level vs 3 1st shouldn't have resulted in death; he should have just laughed at you and took what he wanted.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-20, 02:25 PM
Ask your DM can your new character be a kobold paladin. Ask him can you use materials from Serpent Kingdoms. Rubs your hands together in glee if he agrees.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 02:27 PM
Was it obvious that you didn't have to fight? Was it obvious that you were going to lose?

The DM needs to make these things apparent, so players can make the right decisions. It doesn't sound like that was the case. Anyway, a 12th level vs 3 1st shouldn't have resulted in death; he should have just laughed at you and took what he wanted.
It wasn't at all apparent that we were going to lose this fight, I don't think. I mean, don't get me wrong, the DM and I have been very good friends for nigh on twenty years, and he's thrown us up against some very long odds before, but nothing on the level of throwing three level ones against a level twelve. As a matter of fact, I had talked to him earlier in the day and he mentioned the encounter specifically, saying something very similar to, "Your chances aren't really good, but you might be able to kill him right then and not have to worry about him later."

And one more thing, about the diverting defense ability. The feat description says, "The first attack of the round automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally..." which, to me, means that the ability must be declared to be used prior to the attack roll being made, which didn't happen. What happened was that the Barbarian charging the 12th level guy rolled a critical with his greataxe (natural 20 threat, natural 20 confirm) and then, when the Barb's player was picking up the d12 to roll damage, the DM said, "You hit him instead." referring to the scout. That seems a bit underhanded to me..but maybe I'm just misreading the rules or something.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-20, 02:37 PM
The feat description says, "The first attack of the round automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally..."

Woah there. Even without the way that guy interpreted this feat, it's extremely powerful. Epic-level powerful. Does this guy know frak about giving proper encounters to the players? You were not able to kill this guy.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 02:51 PM
Oh, I'm fully aware of that now. The combined HP of all of our characters was barely 40% of the other guys. Y'know what, I'm just gonna go ahead and post the stats that my DM had for the guy in the word document:

Alladar Nightshade Dark Elf Shadow Knight 12
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 16
AC 20 (+4 dex, +6 armor)
HP 90
+2 Pale Wind +15/+10 (1d8+1) 18-20/*
*Pale Wind doesn’t deal extra damage on a critical, instead a piece of the blade breaks off in the target. Damage inflicted by such a critical cannot be healed by any means unless the blade is removed. Any attempt to remove the blade causes it to extend further into the victim. The blade causes 1 point of Con damage each day, and 1 additional point with each attempt to remove it. Damage caused this way cannot be healed until the blade is removed.
Spells
1st level 5/day
Ray of Enfeeblement, Cause Fear, Burning Hands, Shield, Protection From Good
2nd level 5/day
Command Undead, Spectral Hand, Ghoul Touch, Summon Swarm, See Invisible
3rd level 4/day
Vampiric Touch, Ray of Exhaustion, Stinking Cloud, Slow
4th level 3/day
Animate Dead, Enervation, Bestow Curse
5th level 2/day
Create Undead, Feeblemind
6th level 1/day
Finger of Death

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-20, 03:05 PM
Alladar Nightshade Dark Elf Shadow Knight 12

If dark elves use drow stats then this means you went up against and ECL 14 character, or a CR 13 encounter

Sucrose
2008-07-20, 03:14 PM
And one more thing, about the diverting defense ability. The feat description says, "The first attack of the round automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally..." which, to me, means that the ability must be declared to be used prior to the attack roll being made, which didn't happen. What happened was that the Barbarian charging the 12th level guy rolled a critical with his greataxe (natural 20 threat, natural 20 confirm) and then, when the Barb's player was picking up the d12 to roll damage, the DM said, "You hit him instead." referring to the scout. That seems a bit underhanded to me..but maybe I'm just misreading the rules or something.

Well, he would have to declare that the character was using his Dodge feat against the barbarian (or the nearest IC equivalent, something like "he seems to be focusing on X very carefully, ready to dodge at a moment's notice"), but he doesn't have to declare that the guy has the Diverting Defense option open to him until the attack occurs. It just really blows that that's how you found out.:smallannoyed:

And Tengu_temp, that feat has been around for a while, and isn't generally thought to be one of the things that breaks the game in half. Also (while I'm guessing that you're being at least a little facetious), I cannot condone Pun-Punning a game; if it's gotten to the point that someone would consider it, he or she should really just quit the game; it's better for all involved.

Granted, it's obscenely useful against anyone who tries halfway intelligent melee tactics, but the character's level 12; that's really one of the least threatening options open to him.

puppyavenger
2008-07-20, 03:26 PM
*Pale Wind doesn’t deal extra damage on a critical, instead a piece of the blade breaks off in the target. Damage inflicted by such a critical cannot be healed by any means unless the blade is removed. Any attempt to remove the blade causes it to extend further into the victim. The blade causes 1 point of Con damage each day, and 1 additional point with each attempt to remove it. Damage caused this way cannot be healed until the blade is removed.

but, thats an auto pK on a crit.

Moriato
2008-07-20, 03:28 PM
Oh, I'm fully aware of that now. The combined HP of all of our characters was barely 40% of the other guys. Y'know what, I'm just gonna go ahead and post the stats that my DM had for the guy in the word document:

Alladar Nightshade Dark Elf Shadow Knight 12
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 16
AC 20 (+4 dex, +6 armor)
HP 90
+2 Pale Wind +15/+10 (1d8+1) 18-20/*
*Pale Wind doesn’t deal extra damage on a critical, instead a piece of the blade breaks off in the target. Damage inflicted by such a critical cannot be healed by any means unless the blade is removed. Any attempt to remove the blade causes it to extend further into the victim. The blade causes 1 point of Con damage each day, and 1 additional point with each attempt to remove it. Damage caused this way cannot be healed until the blade is removed.
Spells
1st level 5/day
Ray of Enfeeblement, Cause Fear, Burning Hands, Shield, Protection From Good
2nd level 5/day
Command Undead, Spectral Hand, Ghoul Touch, Summon Swarm, See Invisible
3rd level 4/day
Vampiric Touch, Ray of Exhaustion, Stinking Cloud, Slow
4th level 3/day
Animate Dead, Enervation, Bestow Curse
5th level 2/day
Create Undead, Feeblemind
6th level 1/day
Finger of Death


Is it just me or does this guy seem like a clone of that elf prince from Hellboy 2? Especially that weapon

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-20, 03:34 PM
Sounds like your DM took the Jerk template from Office Codex II. The whole "time-lapse dungeonography" just sucks, the homebrew class just sucks with imbalance, and frankly, I'm still wondering how you'd get a piece of that sword out.

Sorry, man.

Crow
2008-07-20, 04:08 PM
Any Druid of similar level would destroy that bad guy.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 04:16 PM
Is it just me or does this guy seem like a clone of that elf prince from Hellboy 2? Especially that weapon
Actually wouldn't surprise me one bit, because he's notorious for taking video game/movie characters, levels, bosses, etc. and trying to finagle them into a D&D game.

MeklorIlavator
2008-07-20, 04:20 PM
Uhh....is there any way to remove that sword piece? Because it says that any attempt fails and does 1 more unhealable con damage.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 04:23 PM
Uhh....is there any way to remove that sword piece? Because it says that any attempt fails and does 1 more unhealable con damage.
A question I have been seriously pondering myself since I saw the write-up for it.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-07-20, 04:27 PM
That sword is a certain death on a crit. Though it opens intense Roleplaying opportunities.

Lorn
2008-07-20, 04:39 PM
Hm, any chance you could get some sort of high-level mercenary from a bar somewhere to take this guy out seeing as you very obviously can't, which is something that the DM should definitely know?

Or at least, someone to steal the sword, which one of you then uses, meaning the DM can come up with his own way to sort the aftereffects.

Or, maybe, nearest church of [healing god of preference] "Hi, can you help? Yeah, definitely a devout follower here, yeah, all my life, yeah..."

Also - you say your character died. You've just been given a fairly powerful class... is there anything stopping you using it?

Starbuck_II
2008-07-20, 04:51 PM
Oh, I'm fully aware of that now. The combined HP of all of our characters was barely 40% of the other guys. Y'know what, I'm just gonna go ahead and post the stats that my DM had for the guy in the word document:

Alladar Nightshade Dark Elf Shadow Knight 12
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 16
AC 20 (+4 dex, +6 armor)
HP 90
+2 Pale Wind +15/+10 (1d8+1) 18-20/*
*Pale Wind doesn’t deal extra damage on a critical, instead a piece of the blade breaks off in the target. Damage inflicted by such a critical cannot be healed by any means unless the blade is removed. Any attempt to remove the blade causes it to extend further into the victim. The blade causes 1 point of Con damage each day, and 1 additional point with each attempt to remove it. Damage caused this way cannot be healed until the blade is removed.
Spells
1st level 5/day
Ray of Enfeeblement, Cause Fear, Burning Hands, Shield, Protection From Good
2nd level 5/day
Command Undead, Spectral Hand, Ghoul Touch, Summon Swarm, See Invisible
3rd level 4/day
Vampiric Touch, Ray of Exhaustion, Stinking Cloud, Slow
4th level 3/day
Animate Dead, Enervation, Bestow Curse
5th level 2/day
Create Undead, Feeblemind
6th level 1/day
Finger of Death


Why Shadownight instwad of Dread Necromancer?
Both have 3/4th BAb and full casting I believe. Dread would be more balanced I'd wager.

Crow
2008-07-20, 04:57 PM
I'm sure if you attempt to use the Shadowknight class, your DM will give you something about needing to be a member of whatever organization, yada yada...He has to allow any material into his game. Just because you see it in game doesn't mean you can use it. Wrong? Maybe, but that is for another discussion. The point is, the chances of this DM allowing it are slim to none. I have a feeling the DM does know how unbalanced the class is.

There are plenty of options in the PHB to make him cry =)

Deepblue706
2008-07-20, 05:15 PM
Explain to your DM that if he wants you to have your asses handed to you, just tell him to do all the dicework beforehand so you don't have to suffer the pointless attempt at fighting, or to plainly run it as a "cut-scene-youloselol" moment that those terrible railroading shmucks so hamfistedly use in order to impress you or whatever. Because, that's basically what he did, but he added stats like a lot of newbie DMs do, in order to legitimize bullcrap through implementation of arbitrarily determined game mechanics.

If you really want to send your DM a message, make sure your next character is an utter coward, too afraid to battle anything because he thinks everything you're up against is at least 10 levels higher. No, in fact, you should make him think that every living being can kick his ass, unless the god he prays to, known as "Dee-Em", gives him a sign this particular encounter is using appropriate CR guidelines.

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-20, 05:16 PM
I was actually gonna mention the Dread Necro, but I don't think the DM cared about balance when making the character.

I say, build a character focused on disarming. Take the weapon from him, back up, and throw it at him. Even if it doesn't crit and doom him, by RAW, his shiny toy is now destroyed. Of course, I doubt your DM will let that fly.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 05:17 PM
Why Shadownight instwad of Dread Necromancer?
Both have 3/4th BAb and full casting I believe. Dread would be more balanced I'd wager.
Checking the Heroes of Horror sourcebook, the Dread Necromancer only has 1/2 BAB, so this homebrew guy is still much stronger.

JeminiZero
2008-07-20, 05:21 PM
IMHO: Hellboy could have tried to yank the blade out with a giant powerful electromagnet.

In your case, blade removal at level 1 is pretty much impossible, without some plot empowered healer or Pun Pun munchkinery.

Your Odds get better on level 11. Get Stone Body onto the injured guy, which provides *immunity* to ability score damage, including Con damage in this case. Then grab the blade tightly and yank it out.

Jayngfet
2008-07-20, 05:28 PM
Repel metal or stone from behind the guy could do it, but I fail to see how you could get a high level druid to do it.

Pie Guy
2008-07-20, 05:30 PM
you should make him think that every living being can kick his ass, unless the god he prays to, known as "Dee-Em", gives him a sign this particular encounter is using appropriate CR guidelines.

But what if they're attacked by undead?

Deepblue706
2008-07-20, 05:32 PM
But what if they're attacked by undead?

Run, obviously. Undead are freakin' scary, doesn't matter what level.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-20, 05:42 PM
It seems that you need a new DM.

Lorn
2008-07-20, 05:43 PM
Just a thought about sword shard extraction... at one point, it's going to go all the way through the body. The way the DM has worded it seems to imply it's going to keep pressing through.

Thus, ask where it hits. Even better, persuade him/her to roll to find out where it hits. If it's an arm or something, then just keep trying to get it out - it'll fall through eventually. Add in a friendly visit to [god of choice]'s temple, ask for a healing or something, and with any luck you'll be fine. Collect the shards and keep them in something so there's no chance they can be returned.

Does the sword regenerate lost shards? Seems to me it'd get fairly small fairly quickly depending on the crits - level up a bit, get someone to (somehow) cast Keen Edge on it thus improving the chance of a crit, wand of summon creature 1 or something until it's gone.

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-20, 06:40 PM
I say, build a character focused on disarming. Take the weapon from him, back up, and throw it at him. Even if it doesn't crit and doom him, by RAW, his shiny toy is now destroyed.

Um, what? Only ammunition-type items (arrows, shuriken, etc.) have a chance of being destroyed when used (50% on a miss, 100% on a hit). Throwing a melee weapon at someone never causes it to break by RAW. Especially if the thing is magic.

Cuddly
2008-07-20, 06:52 PM
Oh, I'm fully aware of that now. The combined HP of all of our characters was barely 40% of the other guys. Y'know what, I'm just gonna go ahead and post the stats that my DM had for the guy in the word document:

Alladar Nightshade Dark Elf Shadow Knight 12
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 16
AC 20 (+4 dex, +6 armor)
HP 90
+2 Pale Wind +15/+10 (1d8+1) 18-20/*
*Pale Wind doesn’t deal extra damage on a critical, instead a piece of the blade breaks off in the target. Damage inflicted by such a critical cannot be healed by any means unless the blade is removed. Any attempt to remove the blade causes it to extend further into the victim. The blade causes 1 point of Con damage each day, and 1 additional point with each attempt to remove it. Damage caused this way cannot be healed until the blade is removed.
Spells
1st level 5/day
Ray of Enfeeblement, Cause Fear, Burning Hands, Shield, Protection From Good
2nd level 5/day
Command Undead, Spectral Hand, Ghoul Touch, Summon Swarm, See Invisible
3rd level 4/day
Vampiric Touch, Ray of Exhaustion, Stinking Cloud, Slow
4th level 3/day
Animate Dead, Enervation, Bestow Curse
5th level 2/day
Create Undead, Feeblemind
6th level 1/day
Finger of Death

Wow, he's totally ripping of hellboy 2. lol. what a nub.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-20, 07:11 PM
Woah there. Even without the way that guy interpreted this feat, it's extremely powerful. Epic-level powerful. Does this guy know frak about giving proper encounters to the players? You were not able to kill this guy.

Well, yes its an awesome feat. Only it requires both dodge and mobility to get, not usually feats you would go for. :smallannoyed:

Also, does your DM usually throw this kind of stuff at you? Did he laugh at the scouts death and mock you guys after? If not, then he may have just been wanting to have one of those "learn the true power of the villian you face!" moments, which got a little out of hand. I have before accidentally killed players without intending to, as have other DM's I've played with. I wouldent say thats its something worth calling him names over or anything like that. He may have just been looking to create an interesting scene.

Needless to say, I don't think its right for people to be calling him a "Douche" without knowing if this was all just an accident he was too afraid to take back.

Edit: Also, who cares if the NPC has a class more powerful than the PC's? Just like being VAMPIRES and such, NPC's usually can do things that players cant.

Phillip0614
2008-07-20, 08:42 PM
Also, does your DM usually throw this kind of stuff at you? Did he laugh at the scouts death and mock you guys after? If not, then he may have just been wanting to have one of those "learn the true power of the villian you face!" moments, which got a little out of hand. I have before accidentally killed players without intending to, as have other DM's I've played with. I wouldent say thats its something worth calling him names over or anything like that. He may have just been looking to create an interesting scene.

From conversing with him post-game, I don't believe that the killing was some kind of unfortunate accident. After the crit was rolled against my character, and I asked if I get a reflex save or anything to try and avoid it, his reply was, "You've got an AC, and he hit it. Roll damage." or something to that effect. At the conclusion of the game, after we were complaining about being thrown up against something that we were (quite obviously) no match against, he was completely unrepentant, even going so far as to say that my character was "lucky" that there was a cleric around who knew raise dead, and re-iterating that we didn't have to fight the guy.

BRC
2008-07-20, 08:49 PM
From conversing with him post-game, I don't believe that the killing was some kind of unfortunate accident. After the crit was rolled against my character, and I asked if I get a reflex save or anything to try and avoid it, his reply was, "You've got an AC, and he hit it. Roll damage." or something to that effect. At the conclusion of the game, after we were complaining about being thrown up against something that we were (quite obviously) no match against, he was completely unrepentant, even going so far as to say that my character was "lucky" that there was a cleric around who knew raise dead, and re-iterating that we didn't have to fight the guy.
The Whole "You don't have to fight" thing is fine, but it sounds like it could have been done better here. Usually it shouldn't be "Hand the macguffin over" it should be more like "Run for your lives". A level Four bad guy can be described just as awsomly as a level twelve BBEG, and so merely saying "This guy looks really tough and awsome" dosn't mean anything. Having that guy kill a big dragon in front of the PC's is different. Or maybe having the guy disarm the PC's barehanded, or knock one of them out with one shot, then stop combat and give them another chance to surrender. A DM should know that players always go into fights with the expectation that they can win, and so your need to make it Absolutally 100% clear that they are supposed to give up here in order to do so.


The way he should have done it was have the BBEG stun whoever had the mask piece and take it from them, your too low level for bags of holding, so he could just grab it from your belt loop or somthing, then he summons some skeletons and leaves. You get to beat up the skeletons, and then BAM, youve got yourselves a BBEG to go after.

Sucrose
2008-07-20, 08:50 PM
Edit: Also, who cares if the NPC has a class more powerful than the PC's? Just like being VAMPIRES and such, NPC's usually can do things that players cant.

Very true (though PCs can be vampires pretty easily; they have LA for a reason); I'd be a hypocrite for liking 4E if that weren't the case. However, a blatantly overpowered class can make it difficult to gauge how powerful a character is relative to the sort of thing that you want to be facing. Obviously not an issue in this case, as a half-decent level 12 Fighter could've flattened the three of them pretty quickly, but still something to take note of.

Plus, making a class specifically to be more awesome than the party's options does stink a bit of DMPC, and coupled with other issues in the story, does not show him in a terribly positive light.

Tormsskull
2008-07-20, 09:25 PM
Uh, well, from only seeing one side of this, I'm going to suggest that there is the possibility that the DM was trying to show your group that just because you are the PCs, it doesn't mean that you should be able to defeat everything you come across.

In such a case, the DM would probably make it quite obvious that this guy is very powerful. Did the DM describe anything that this guy was doing, or make him seem very powerful? If he did, then I would think that the PCs thinking "Oh, we can take this guy anyway, we're the PCs!!!" was the fault here.

As a DM, I have seen newer players do this very often. They assume that D&D is like a console RPG in where every enemy they encounter they are supposed to fight, and if they are going to be in an auto-lose situation, something comes along and saves the day for them.

I'd say either convince the DM to come on, review the thread, then post his thoughts, or just give him another chance. If it bothers you that much, then I would suggest looking for another game, as there is no point in playing when you are not having fun.

Waspinator
2008-07-20, 10:34 PM
It's fine that the party shouldn't be able to defeat everyone they meet, but that doesn't mean that they have to be killed for it. Someone that much higher than them in level would almost certainly be able to just knock them out and walk away with the item while laughing.

Helgraf
2008-07-21, 01:50 AM
I was actually gonna mention the Dread Necro, but I don't think the DM cared about balance when making the character.

I say, build a character focused on disarming. Take the weapon from him, back up, and throw it at him. Even if it doesn't crit and doom him, by RAW, his shiny toy is now destroyed. Of course, I doubt your DM will let that fly.

Ummm, only ammunition is destroyed like that. Thrown weapons that are not ammunition (eg. all of them except shuriken) are not.

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-21, 02:04 AM
That's already been pointed out. Yeah, I goofed.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-21, 02:06 AM
What would have been nice is a little forewarning of the power level difference. A little like how the B-characters felt near Freezer or Cell, if you see what I mean..

"You see the villain coming near you, an aura of mighty power is resonnating in the air. His sword is reflecting the scream and death of dozens of souls, and he look at you with a smug attitude, perfectly confident that he won't break a sweat killing you."

Now, that would have been an easy choice, wouldn't you agree? :smallamused:

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-21, 02:10 AM
Couldn't that just be seen as hyperbole, Solka? I'd assume that most DMs would make all of their antagonists seem more dangerous then they really are to build tension.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-21, 02:13 AM
Couldn't that just be seen as hyperbole, Solka? I'd assume that most DMs would make all of their antagonists seem more dangerous then they really are to build tension.

Maybe, but if the sword really look like a powerful magical item, I think a group of lvl1 players should know they are in front of someone they can't chew.

Add a glowing Full plate armor with spikes that sparkes with electricity, and I think the Players will simply turn tail. At least, you're giving them a clear warning, so they won't come back at you saying "You stupid, you put him in front of us with no warning".

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-21, 02:17 AM
Good point (the magical items would beed to be really obvious, though). It would still be better then not giving any warning if the DM is going to insist on using that sort of encounter.

Tormsskull
2008-07-21, 06:08 AM
It's fine that the party shouldn't be able to defeat everyone they meet, but that doesn't mean that they have to be killed for it. Someone that much higher than them in level would almost certainly be able to just knock them out and walk away with the item while laughing.

But as the DM if you are faced with this type of scenario, you can either completely fiat it (He waves his hand, knocks you all to the ground where you are pinned, helplessly. Then he proceeds to take your half of the mask, laughes at you, and walks out), or you can try to use the rules system to support your BBEG. The key here is that the PCs have to be aware that the danger they are facing is over their head.

I can guarantee you that if the DM had done the fiat method, there would be a thread right now about how the DM was railroading his players and they don't have any choice in the world (which would be justified, IMO).

The main point of contention is IF the DM foreshadowed this guy as being nigh-unbeatable and the PCs figured they'd just charge along because "they are the PCs" or if the DM was putting this guy in to take care of a grudge (the grudge being that the players of 2 PCs cancelled a session, which maybe the DM took personally).

No way of knowing unless you get the other side of the story.

Phillip0614
2008-07-21, 08:58 AM
I suppose the truth of the matter is, I don't know what the DMs intentions were with that fight. But, given the power level he was at and the things he was able to do, especially when compared to a three-person party at level one, it was, at least, very questionable for him to say to me earlier that day, "You might be able to beat him."

Waspinator
2008-07-21, 09:03 AM
Well, technically anyone can beat anyone because you might roll three 20s in a row. That doesn't mean that that is going to happen. Ever.

Phillip0614
2008-07-21, 09:28 AM
Well, technically anyone can beat anyone because you might roll three 20s in a row. That doesn't mean that that is going to happen. Ever.
I suppose you're right. Maybe I am making too big a deal out of all of this.

Ralfarius
2008-07-21, 10:05 AM
I suppose you're right. Maybe I am making too big a deal out of all of this.
I think that the 'jobbing to a powerful villain' was harsh, but not entirely out of line. However, as a DM I would request explicit permission from my players before implementing any sort of whacky time-lapsing rule into a campaign. It just seems to be in bad faith. A DM needs to take the needs and desires of the players into healthy consideration because, ultimately, the campaign is about everyone having fun, not the person running it showing off how great they are to the lowly peons. A DM without a group is just a lonely person sitting behind a screen.

Burley
2008-07-21, 10:26 AM
...even going so far as to say that my character was "lucky" that there was a cleric around who knew raise dead, and re-iterating that we didn't have to fight the guy.

Except that Raise Dead would have crippled your character with the -2 con. Seriously, if your session ended with the cleric raising your character, say that your character's soul refused to return. And, here's how you can beat the DM at his own game:

1. Make a new character. Anything will do, really. Make a commoner.
2. Point out his stupid rule of time warping around PCs, leaving them untouched while the rest of the world pounds on, if a player doesn't play for any reason.
3. You decide you don't want to play anymore. Tell your DM that you have more important things to do than put up with his stupid houserules (that aren't approved my the house) and his unfair advantages to his own twisted needs. Stabbing yourself in the face with a soldering iron would be something more important.
4. Since your character is unscathed by the flow of time, you have acheived immortality. Your DM's stupid brain gave your first level character epic status. Congrats. You just won D&D!

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-21, 11:35 AM
Except that Raise Dead would have crippled your character with the -2 con. Seriously, if your session ended with the cleric raising your character, say that your character's soul refused to return. And, here's how you can beat the DM at his own game:

1. Make a new character. Anything will do, really. Make a commoner.
2. Point out his stupid rule of time warping around PCs, leaving them untouched while the rest of the world pounds on, if a player doesn't play for any reason.
3. You decide you don't want to play anymore. Tell your DM that you have more important things to do than put up with his stupid houserules (that aren't approved my the house) and his unfair advantages to his own twisted needs. Stabbing yourself in the face with a soldering iron would be something more important.
4. Since your character is unscathed by the flow of time, you have acheived immortality. Your DM's stupid brain gave your first level character epic status. Congrats. You just won D&D!

You forgot Infinite Oregano

valadil
2008-07-21, 12:04 PM
Is it possible that this incident is due to poor planning on the DM's part rather than simple DM wankery? I know I've seen players advance plots way too quickly or skip other plots entirely. As a player I've seen DMs fail to anticipate how players will react. I'm not familiar with your DM's history, but is it possible he was planning a plot scene and you guys turned it into a combat? For all we know, he meant to have the BBEG take the McGuffin and then have the PCs track it down over the next couple months, gaining levels all the while.

Lochar
2008-07-21, 12:06 PM
Considering the BBEG took the mask piece the players would have gotten if the game had actually run, I doubt it.

Dullyanna
2008-07-21, 12:23 PM
On the other hand, the DM could've been planning that scenario in the first place, with the time-skipping thing as a mere excuse.

Demonix
2008-07-21, 12:45 PM
Meh, the whole thing reeks, and I think you are perfectly justified in ranting about it. It may have been done by the book, but you were railroaded just as if it was done by DM fiat, with the additional insult of eating a death.

Oh the injustice...my friend and I have been trying to find good gamers in the DC/nova area for YEARS while yabos like this DM get players to torture. -cries-

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-21, 12:51 PM
I agree with Burley Warlock's suggestions for solving the problem, and with what he said about the Con loss. If you accepted the Raise Dead, what was your altered Con stat? I'd have just rolled up a new character rather then lose HPs for the rest of my character's life to be honest.

Waspinator
2008-07-21, 04:02 PM
Or there's the good old "here's my last character's twin brother, who happens to be just like he was in every way before this adventure started."

Siosilvar
2008-07-21, 04:33 PM
"Your chances aren't really good, but you might be able to kill him right then and not have to worry about him later."

Chances? Aren't really good? What chances? CR 12/13 vs. CR 2.5 is not a chance. I say, tell the DM he's being a jerk (but nicer than that) and go run your own game for a while.

Starbuck_II
2008-07-21, 08:10 PM
What you could have done was use Dust of Sneezing and Coughing in a Suicide run.
One of your characters draws the dust moves at enemy and uses it.

The enemy loses Con or is Stunned: He has to choose (make a save or lose Con).
Really, after being stunned you guys can beat him down like a red headed step child.

If he takes the Con damage instead, well... he is weaker...maybe you'll have chance.

golem1972
2008-07-21, 08:43 PM
If a game ever had to be canceled, for any reason, the timeline of the story would advance without us.

Find a time when your DM can't play (work, school, family, whatever). Schedule a game (it doesn't really matter who shows up. Fix whatever happened the previous game.

"We're sorry you couldn't show up, so we played without you. We tracked down that shadow knight and CdG'ed him at the same time (readied actions)while he was asleep. BTW, the new character I rolled up is a shadow knight."

Or, you could just tell him his turn as DM is over, because you've decided it's an adults only game.

The hardest part about being a DM isn't killing off the PCs. Any DM can kill off any character with no effort. It's making the players believe what they're facing is really a challenge, and making it fun for them.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-22, 01:15 AM
Any Druid of similar level would destroy that bad guy.

He's incredibly weak and poorly equipped for a character of that level (and he's missing 2 points of damage, too). The level difference just happens to be big enough that he can whip the PCs. That, and magic beats everything.

Heck, casting from a limited list and 3/4 BAB isn't even that unbalanced - there's several classes like that. It's the lower levels for powerful spells that throw that out of whack.

And the stupidly powerful feat. Elusive Target would've sufficed - it's already a feat that's too good to pass up on.

Feats, classes - all that crap is DM prerogative anyway, though.

But setting up rules about playing, rather than mechanics, without consensus among the group, is just being an *******, especially when they're designed to screw the players over. Change DMs.

chevalier
2008-07-23, 02:26 PM
I'm sorry, anyway you cut it, the guy's a jerk. He should have given you some indication that the BBEG was massively overpowering and you should hand over the mask, or scaled it better.

Remember that challenge ratings and encounter levels refer not only to the difficulty of engaging in martial combat with an opponent, but just "dealing with them" in general--they have higher skills, etc. So any time you put a CR 12 against three 1s, that's not a winnable encounter.

Time for a new DM.

crimson77
2008-07-24, 02:07 AM
I suppose you're right. Maybe I am making too big a deal out of all of this.

I have been lurking in this thread for a while and I have finally formalized my thoughts.

I agree with you that your DM did seem to be playing a very linear/railroading game. You felt you only had two options, give up the mask or fight. The traditional outlook from a PC's perspective is to fight and the DM should throw you up against level appropriate encounters. While I typically DM from this perspective, the movies offer different perspectives. For instance, boy gets beat up then learns karate and seeks his revenge on bullies.

If you have a very plot driven DM then he (or she) wants to tell a story and typically leaving the PCs with very few options. For instance, maybe he wanted you to feel the presence of this powerful enemy and then later be able to defeat him when you are at an appropriate level. Similar to the kid learning karate.

If I were to give advice, I would suggest focusing more on other ways beyond fight or flight. While, I know that your characters did not have a lot of skill points, it may have been helpful to develop your characters skills (or even had the appropriate class). I have gotten myself out of more problems with a sliver tongue than I can count. Additionally, a slight of hand might have helped you conceal the mask.

However, if you are going to get railroaded then you will be railroaded.

On the issue of time passing between sessions that you missed. This could be a passive aggressive way of telling the group something. It might be helpful to continue talking about this with him.

If these problems continue, maybe it is time that another took over as a DM and give him a chance to remember what it is like being a player. Just a thought.

turkishproverb
2008-07-24, 02:36 AM
If a game ever had to be canceled, for any reason, the timeline of the story would advance without us.

Find a time when your DM can't play (work, school, family, whatever). Schedule a game (it doesn't really matter who shows up. Fix whatever happened the previous game.

"We're sorry you couldn't show up, so we played without you. We tracked down that shadow knight and CdG'ed him at the same time (readied actions)while he was asleep. BTW, the new character I rolled up is a shadow knight."

Or, you could just tell him his turn as DM is over, because you've decided it's an adults only game.

The hardest part about being a DM isn't killing off the PCs. Any DM can kill off any character with no effort. It's making the players believe what they're facing is really a challenge, and making it fun for them.

I agree with this.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-24, 04:12 AM
Come on, don't give the "He's a jerk" and other things like this. The DM made a blunder, it happens to the best of us. The best thing is simply tell him to put more forewarning about the invincibility of the opponents.

IF he don't want, then judge him. You aren't a jerk by making a mistake, but by refusing to help it.

turkishproverb
2008-07-24, 04:18 AM
Come on, don't give the "He's a jerk" and other things like this. The DM made a blunder, it happens to the best of us. The best thing is simply tell him to put more forewarning about the invincibility of the opponents.

IF he don't want, then judge him. You aren't a jerk by making a mistake, but by refusing to help it.

The DM made a large group of suspicious blunders and rules modifications. enough to make him look unfair and vendictive.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-24, 04:19 AM
I would have thought that he'd have known that the party would fight the overpowered boss if the mask was that important (the fact that he used a homebrew class which the rest of the group hadn't approved beforehand suggests that he was doing it in an attempt to show off).

Conners
2008-07-24, 06:18 AM
Wow.... that guy sounds like SUCH a jerk :smalleek:. The time constraints thing is terrible. Sure, if you wasted time ICly I'd have the BBEGs get ahead, but you can't pick on your player because of XYoZ in reality.

I can understand having a villain you have no chance of beating showing up and taking your plot-object/whichever--but only for story reasons or if it's that kind of campaign. For the kind of campaign that would happen with, a DM worth his salt would make it very clear to the players that if it looks absolutely hopeless, it might actually be impossible--rather than one of the half-impossible things adventurers thwart on a daily basis. I can even say that having such a powerful class for a villain is not necessarily a bad things--in fact, it may only make defeating that villain finally all the more impressive, epic, memorable.

How your DM has done this... it's pretty horrible. The idea that the dungeon you're going to is already ransacked is a great plot-hook (I'll make sure to steal that idea :smallbiggrin:), but I see no reason why such a powerful character would wait for people one twelfth of his level to finally come and finish a job he could probably do in three minutes...

The DM should've had you arrive as the villain was taking the mask from its chest/whatever. That would've been more dramatic and to show you had no chance against the guy, the boss (which I would change for the fact you are not meant to fight it--now at least) could be something that you know would've slaughtered the three of you (a young black dragon, for example). THEN you would certainly have reason to hand over whatever the heck he wanted (or run like h*ll) for the fact you realize you are definitely not meant to be kicking this guy's ass, to his surprise (as you do with about every other villain you meet).

Jayabalard
2008-07-24, 06:40 AM
Was it obvious that you didn't have to fight? Was it obvious that you were going to lose?

The DM needs to make these things apparent, so players can make the right decisions. It doesn't sound like that was the case. Anyway, a 12th level vs 3 1st shouldn't have resulted in death; he should have just laughed at you and took what he wanted.These seem like the pertinent questions; there's nothing at all wrong with setting the players up against a vastly more powerful foe as long as you make it clear that he's vastly more powerful and give them options to survive the situation. If the characters are stupid enough to charge into an obviously and massively more powerful foe, then they deserve to die.

I don't see any of the complaints about the homebrew as valid; creating feats and a class for the villain, even ones that are overpowered, is no different than homebrewing a new monster; all the GM needs to do is up the CR of the encounter when you actual are supposed to fight.

SoD
2008-07-24, 06:59 AM
Wow. I mean, I'll allow parties to get killed, but I won't try to kill them. I'll put them up against things that they flat out can't win, but only if they're not meant to fight. And if I can think of a reason, when they do fight it, it won't kill them.

I mean, there's one NPC my party will meet when they're level 3ish. The NPC: level 30. Then again, he has vow of non-violence, vow of peace and vow of poverty. He ain't hurtin' no-body.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-24, 08:15 AM
Don't forget the automatic flanking thing. In addition to being overpowered, he KILLED the player with it.

He knew perfectly well a crit would be lethal. If he hadn't intended to kill any of the players, he'd have just taken it, god knows a level 13 has enough HP for it.

Tormsskull
2008-07-24, 08:38 AM
(the fact that he used a homebrew class which the rest of the group hadn't approved beforehand suggests that he was doing it in an attempt to show off).

Do you really play this way? Does your DM run by new monsters that he has made so that you approve them? Or if he creates a new spell, does he have to run it by your group before it is approved? That would seem to destroy the mystery of the game, which is incredibly important IMO.



For the kind of campaign that would happen with, a DM worth his salt would make it very clear to the players that if it looks absolutely hopeless, it might actually be impossible--rather than one of the half-impossible things adventurers thwart on a daily basis.


I think the more pressing issue here is that you are used to a DM that throws "half-impossible" things at the party on a regular basis. Do the PCs in your group dress up with costumes, capes, and big letters on their chests?

I may have been coming at this thread from a different angle (I am sure I am). If, OP, your group runs as the above posters suggest (The DM is required to get the player's approval before introducing homebrewed items and session after session your group is running around doing the superhero thing) then yes, your DM is a total turd.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-24, 08:58 AM
I've not played enough D&D for that to have been an issue. On the other hand, using the logic that most DMs insist on checking over Homebrew things ebfore the players use them, I don't see why the DMs shouldn't check things as well, especially since anything they do will probably have more of an effect on the ame as a whole.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-24, 10:41 AM
Come on, don't give the "He's a jerk" and other things like this. The DM made a blunder, it happens to the best of us. The best thing is simply tell him to put more forewarning about the invincibility of the opponents.

No, the DM didn't "make a blunder", he decided to become a tabletop despot and declared a rule - outside of the game, which is not his area to rule in - that was obviously petty and spiteful and meant to screw the players over if they dared have a real life.

He's a colossal jerk.

Seriously, none of the in-game stuff is even bad, but that alone means he should not be DMing. The DM gets to come up with all the unbalanced classes and stupidly powerful magic items and high-level NPCs he wants to (he'll just have to deal with it when the players decide his game's not any fun) - but the BS about the game going on if players have a life instead of attending a session is way out of line.


I've not played enough D&D for that to have been an issue. On the other hand, using the logic that most DMs insist on checking over Homebrew things ebfore the players use them, I don't see why the DMs shouldn't check things as well, especially since anything they do will probably have more of an effect on the ame as a whole.

Because the DM is, by definition, the arbiter of the rules. The players aren't.

The DM is not, however, arbiter of the players' lives.

Gerrtt
2008-07-24, 03:19 PM
Well, I've heard and experienced worse DMs but not many (technically only one, but on more than on occasion).

I have to wonder what your relationship with the DM is like outside the game. Is he just a guy you know or is he a friend? I'm thinking you at least know him well since you let him use your laptop.

It sounds and feels like this DM was just in love with his bad guy and instead of doing what he was planning on doing (taking the item from you and walking away) he decided to put you all in your place for not doing what he wanted by sicking his favorite bay guy ever on you.

Seriously though...killing players before they get to level two should only happen because of bad luck (and even then...). It doesn't sound like a DM I'd like to continue playing with (this coming from someone who continued to play with a DM who said normal-sized bees sting for 1d6 damage, constructs can be sneak-attacked and flanked, and a tree branch falling from 5 feet can kill an unwounded troll...just cause).

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-25, 12:58 AM
I tend to think that the DM should basically just be a player with more characters and conrol over events in the wider world (my stance is thast the rules should be agreed on by everyone, or at least a majority) of the players).

Nebo_
2008-07-25, 01:04 AM
I tend to think that the DM should basically just be a player with more characters and conrol over events in the wider world (my stance is thast the rules should be agreed on by everyone, or at least a majority) of the players).

That's a terrible way to think of a DM. The DM is there to make the player characters special. If he acts like a player, then the NPCs will take the PCs out of the spotlight. Fail.

turkishproverb
2008-07-25, 01:19 AM
That's a terrible way to think of a DM. The DM is there to make the player characters special. If he acts like a player, then the NPCs will take the PCs out of the spotlight. Fail.

I think he meant that in terms of rules. I certainly think there are TIMES a DM should have to obey the same rules as players. Vetting homebrews with a trusted source (though not necessarily the group) would be one of them.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-25, 01:19 AM
How would that happen? I can't see how it would be a problem unless the DM insists on an overpowered NPC being a part of the PC's group (unless they need a reasonably powerful one for the plot). I was thinking about how the DM "plays" as NPCs rather then him being a PC.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 06:41 AM
I think he meant that in terms of rules. I certainly think there are TIMES a DM should have to obey the same rules as players. Vetting homebrews with a trusted source (though not necessarily the group) would be one of them.

I prefer it this way also.

"and the villian teleports back"
"If he gets to teleport at level 4 I wanna teleport too!"
"Fine, he rides away on a flying... *flips through MM* green dragon!"