[4E] Swordmage Preview (level 1-3)

[AvatarZero]

Has anyone seen this?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/lfrcharacters

There's a preview for the Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide on this page, with expanded info for Drow PCs, rules for Genasi PCs, and the thing that drew my eye, the Swordmage class. There's a selection of powers from level 1-3 and two build options instead of just one (like the Artificer preview).

I'm surprised to have not found a thread about this already. Time to get excited! Or disappointed, if you were hoping the class would be boring. :smallsmile:

What does anyone think of the class?

[UserClone]

*drools @ swordmage*
Aegis of assault is BADASS!

[Deepblue706]

Personally, I think it fails to do the concept justice. I love gishes, but I would never play as this class.

[Isomenes]

Personally, I think it fails to do the concept justice. I love gishes, but I would never play as this class.

I don't think I could disagree with you more, but perhaps this disagreement is predicated on a difference of first principles. I feel like the best gish in one who uses his knowledge of the arcane to be a more effective fighter, accomplishing the greatest martial feats by different means. This means teleporting oneself or others around the battlefield, gaining enhancements to one's defenses with arcane power, and stopping imminent threats as much with arcane fury as with martial prowess. The Duskblade, the Psychic Warrior (if one allows transparency), and now the Swordmage seem to embody this concept for me.

How do you view a gish? And what would be a better example?

[Tengu_temp]

Does the job if you ask me. For me, a gish is a fighter who uses his magical powers to increase his fighting ability, not a guy who flings a fireball first and then comes in charging with a sword.

Of course, by "does the job" I mean "that's totally sweet, for a preview".

Ack, Isomenes wrote roughly the same thing that I wanted. Meh, I'm still posting this.

[Deepblue706]

I don't think I could disagree with you more, but perhaps this disagreement is predicated on a difference of first principles. I feel like the best gish in one who uses his knowledge of the arcane to be a more effective fighter, accomplishing the greatest martial feats by different means. This means teleporting oneself or others around the battlefield, gaining enhancements to one's defenses with arcane power, and stopping imminent threats as much with arcane fury as with martial prowess. The Duskblade, the Psychic Warrior (if one allows transparency), and now the Swordmage seem to embody this concept for me.

How do you view a gish? And what would be a better example?

Well, I've never been a fan of the Duskblade or Psychic Warrior either - so I'd say you're right about your guess on principles.

I was already immediately displeased with the class being called a "Swordmage" - there has been plenty relation between classes and specific weaponry that already sickens me enough. Surely, one can homebrew a change in details like this, but I am not pleased that a more neutral approach did not take precedent. Not only light and heavy blades should qualify as implements.

Every at-will power does an equally fantastical magical attack. I'm not trying to say that the class shouldn't have them, but the lack of mundane options makes me wonder why the guy even bothers carrying a sword, much less bother training with it. It's so magic reliant that I presume a lead pole would suffice, because it doesn't really matter what you're hitting someone with when you're bringing down fire and brimstone anyway. I think these would go much better as encounter and daily powers.

There are a few utility things here, which I tend to like significantly more than the "flash" "bang" "explosion" abilities, as I am a fan of gish that runs around all clad in armor and kills because he's got fighting techniques, but occasionally relies on magic when he needs to fly over a wall, use an illusion to trick some baddies, etc.

But a lot of the spells abusable by wizards are completely zapped from the rulebooks, if not simply made restricted to those in the paragon and epic tiers (and I don't happen to be a fan of very-high level play), so most of what I like to do kinda got the boot. Which is a shame, because those abusable spells were often lately-bloomed by gishes, making the power-curve not-quite-as-bad (barring the obviously broken ones, of course).

I do think it is important that he puts some magic into his sword and waves it around like a lunatic as it spews out fiery goodness, but I find it much more interesting when that sort of thing is somewhat limited. But, I suppose I shouldn't be as surprised, considering the name is, in fact, Sword-Mage, which implies to me it's just a Mage with a Sword. A gish, on the other hand, I see as a Warrior with Magic: The rock-jawed, iron-gutted brawler taking the front-seat, the spells in the back seat, and with the rocket launcher and C4 in the trunk. Magic should certainly be a weapon in his arsenal, among those getting the most usage - and it should compensate for the fact he's not quite as big as the 7' russian hitman (because otherwise that makes being a Fighter meaningless). But, playing a Swordmage looks about as entertaining as watching both Escape from New York and Escape from L.A. back-to-back (for those of you who are unaware, they're pretty much the same damn movie). Sure, the idea seems pretty cool at the time, and Kurt Russel may play the role of badass pretty well - but that doesn't change that by the time you get to the second movie, you'll be wishing the only difference wasn't just the name of the setting, a different type of blood-sport, and the addition of a ridiculous surf-scene.

I hope you don't take this as too ranty - I just tried to be thorough. And, I tried to ease the reading by adding in some comedic elements - hopefully you can appreciate them.

In a nutshell, not enough subtlety, too much KERPOW!

[Isomenes]

DeepBlue706, I totally get you, and didn't read anything nasty into what you wrote. I like the imagery you've laid out, and I think you're right--the class could be better served by having at least one Martial-style at-will. The perspectives appear to be one of embodying magic offense in one's person (rather than a blastercaster or somesuch), versus magic as a tool to enable one to get physical with greater ease.

I find that many of the 4E class choices can be easily homebrewed to substitute RAW for a different style-choice, and I think that's the intent. It's a malleable system (as malleable as any others out there), and the swordmage is no different. I don't think they intended to exclude other weapon choices as a hard and fast rule--that's just fluff you can handwave out. The Warding and Aegis class features seem to be the death knell for your sort of gish, though.

The way I'd do the gish you describe (which I have an equal respect for) is to replace the Defender/Martial Striker utility powers with Arcane utilities flat-out, and perhaps allow Ritual casting as a Wizard's for a class feature to replace one of the base class. But yeah, this style of play isn't reflected by the Swordmage.

[Deepblue706]

The way I'd do the gish you describe (which I have an equal respect for) is to replace the Defender/Martial Striker utility powers with Arcane utilities flat-out, and perhaps allow Ritual casting as a Wizard's for a class feature to replace one of the base class. But yeah, this style of play isn't reflected by the Swordmage.

Interesting suggestion. I'll look into it.

[Cainen]

This actually looks like a fun to play class, assuming they'll continue to flesh it out later. The Aegis abilities have their uses, especially if your party is willing to maneuver to use them to their full effect.

[Moff Chumley]

This actually looks like a fun to play class, assuming they'll continue to flesh it out later. The Aegis abilities have their uses, especially if your party is willing to maneuver to use them to their full effect.

That's how 4ed was designed to be played.

[AvatarZero]

Every at-will power does an equally fantastical magical attack. I'm not trying to say that the class shouldn't have them, but the lack of mundane options makes me wonder why the guy even bothers carrying a sword, much less bother training with it. It's so magic reliant that I presume a lead pole would suffice, because it doesn't really matter what you're hitting someone with when you're bringing down fire and brimstone anyway. I think these would go much better as encounter and daily powers.

There are a few utility things here, which I tend to like significantly more than the "flash" "bang" "explosion" abilities, as I am a fan of gish that runs around all clad in armor and kills because he's got fighting techniques, but occasionally relies on magic when he needs to fly over a wall, use an illusion to trick some baddies, etc.

I know what you mean about the magical attacks. Half of the Swordmage attacks have the Implement keyword, meaning that the weapon you're using doesn't actually matter, so long as you have it ready as an implement to grant it's enhancement bonus. (In fact, since a class doesn't need an implement to cast spells, until magical swords become available to you, you could be an effective Swordmage without actually owning a sword.)

However, the other half of those attacks have the Weapon keywords. Look at an attack like Greenflame Blade. It deals fire damage, but so would a Fighter power using a flaming sword. You can imagine that as a blade made entirely out of fire but I think this is more of a "channel magic as you strike" ability, something representing martial skill. I think that if you like the idea of a more martial Swordmage (one who actually hits people with a sword, for instance:smallsmile:) you should focus on those attacks instead of the close range blasts and bursts of the Implement powers. Also, consider the Aegis of Assault. It gives you additional basic attacks, which definitely use the sword in your hand.

I agree with you about the lack of clever, encounter derailing, "stand back, I'll handle this" utility magic. Speaking as someone who loves 4th edition, I think that's something 4E has taken an axe to in the name of getting as many players as possible having fun as much of the time as possible. I don't think that's bad, but then I am still playing a third edition game as a Beguiler. Enough said.:smallwink:

One last observation that any Swordmage should note. A Swordmage can use a light blade or a heavy blade as an implement, not just swords. If you're thinking about using a scythe, a scimitar or a falchion, then you probably haven't noticed that that list includes Glaives.

Edit: Excited yet? No? Well here's another one for you. If you are focusing on the Swordmage Weapon powers, ie. if you don't have any Implement powers, then you don't actually have to have an Implement. This means you are free to use the Swordmage Weapon powers with any weapon you like. Spiked chain anyone? What about a Maul to go with your high CON Shielding Swordmage build? Any of the homebrewers in the audience fancy an unarmed Swordmage? You'd be giving up a +1 to AC in the form of your Swordmage warding(+3 if you're using a 1-handed weapon), but it's still an option. (I might be wrong on this, but I really don't think I am.)

Also, on the topic of homebrewers, I'm sure that Wizards of the Coast will come up with a few magical swords with powers that appeal to Swordmages (like they did with the Artificer preview) but does anyone have any ideas before then?

Enjoy!

[Dhavaer]

Reading through, it looks like you can, as a third level Storm Genasi Swordmage:

Mark an adjacent target (minor action)
Use Promise of Storm (minor action)
Use Booming Blade (standard action, 1W+Int mod damage)

An ally then runs past or otherwise provokes and AoO from the marked target, assuming they hit with their AoO, you can:

Use Blastback Swipe (immediate interrupt, 1W+1d8+Int mod damage, pushes target 2 squares, triggering Booming Blade, dealing 1d6+1d8+Con mod damage).

Highly situational, of course, but with 2W+2d8+1d6+2x Int mod + Con mod damage, it's worth trying to get.

[Tengu_temp]

. If you're thinking about using a scythe, a scimitar or a falchion, then you probably haven't noticed that that list includes Glaives.


Miko Swordmage with a naginata!

Yes, my mind is permanently tainted. It feels good.

[Deepblue706]

However, the other half of those attacks have the Weapon keywords. Look at an attack like Greenflame Blade. It deals fire damage, but so would a Fighter power using a flaming sword. You can imagine that as a blade made entirely out of fire but I think this is more of a "channel magic as you strike" ability, something representing martial skill.

Considering how so much relies on intelligence and so little on actual strength (and when it's present, it adds additional fire damage, for some reason?), it looks to me like it's more about getting a chance to just connect the weapon with your enemy with your sword so that you can deep fry him with magic. Yeah, you're actually doing damage with the weapon - and yeah, that means you've obviously got to train with the weapon to do that...but the fact of the matter is that you're doing regular weapon damage, and then your added effect is just slapping on some magic. Why doesn't the swordmage have, say, Cleave? Tide of Iron?

I prefer the class system of 3.5 to 4 because I could at least somewhat customize my abilities through multiclassing, and not be stuck with basic attacks that happen to also deal elemental damage. I don't find this to be very exciting, because all of the Swordmage's flair comes from adding magic to what a Fighter would consider a basic sword thrust. Sure, that's better a thrust without magic, but I wish that magic didn't simply serve as a substitute for advanced combative techniques.



I think that if you like the idea of a more martial Swordmage (one who actually hits people with a sword, for instance:smallsmile:) you should focus on those attacks instead of the close range blasts and bursts of the Implement powers. Also, consider the Aegis of Assault. It gives you additional basic attacks, which definitely use the sword in your hand.


I take it you mean more mundane when you say martial - that term applied is a bastardization in D&D. It's no less martial to use magic, as long as it's being applied to war.

Here, I'm not just referring to implement powers. I don't like a single ability the Swordmage in this preview has, other than Eldritch Speed and Flame Cyclone - and Flame Cyclone is an encounter power. I don't mind flashy abilities that are used moderately - I do mind that all the Swordmage does is use magic and happens to deliver it using a sword.

If I'm picky with my abilities, only using the ones that lack a description of "Fire Slash" or "Ice Counterattack" or "Lighting Juxtaposition", I'm severely limiting myself. The class is not designed so that you ignore half of your abilities.

And I think Aegis of Assault is dumb.



I agree with you about the lack of clever, encounter derailing, "stand back, I'll handle this" utility magic. Speaking as someone who loves 4th edition, I think that's something 4E has taken an axe to in the name of getting as many players as possible having fun as much of the time as possible. I don't think that's bad, but then I am still playing a third edition game as a Beguiler. Enough said.:smallwink:

I think you've misunderstood my point. The class is almost completely devoid of anything that doesn't directly involve exploding something or making you specifically better at exploding things. Oh, and your alternative class path is what? Protection from Explosion from baddies.



One last observation that any Swordmage should note. A Swordmage can use a light blade or a heavy blade as an implement, not just swords. If you're thinking about using a scythe, a scimitar or a falchion, then you probably haven't noticed that that list includes Glaives.

Howabout a Warhammer? I Like warhammers.



Edit: Excited yet? No? Well here's another one for you. If you are focusing on the Swordmage Weapon powers, ie. if you don't have any Implement powers, then you don't actually have to have an Implement. This means you are free to use the Swordmage Weapon powers with any weapon you like. Spiked chain anyone? What about a Maul to go with your high CON Shielding Swordmage build? Any of the homebrewers in the audience fancy an unarmed Swordmage? You'd be giving up a +1 to AC in the form of your Swordmage warding(+3 if you're using a 1-handed weapon), but it's still an option. (I might be wrong on this, but I really don't think I am.)

The class is obviously not designed for you to ignore half the features. Not using implement powers would be against the philosophy of the design, which encourages people to use the most tactically superior option at the given time. If this is how the game is balanced, then I'm effectively shooting myself in the foot.

Some people might like the Swordmage - and that's cool - but I don't. I hope that another Gish class is released.

[MammonAzrael]

I'm going to have to side with Deepblue706 on this one. I'm not let down to the extent he is (but I'm likely a bigger fan of 4th in general, so that's probably part of it), but I'm still unimpressed.

One thing that really bugs me is the total reliance on Intelligence, and barely a nod to Strength. Where are the STR vs AC attacks? Why are all four At-Wills Int vs X? Isn't the Swordmage supposed to be a gish? The Paladin is effectively a divine gish, and that manages to give two different stats equal value. This just feels like a close-range Wizard.

For instance, Burning Blade would make a lot more sense if it dealt 2[W] + STR mod damage, and all your melee attacks for the rest of the encounter did INT mod extra fire damage.

Booming and Greenflame Blade, the 2 at-wills that target AC, should be STR based, IMO, while the two at-will that target REF and Fort should remain INT based.

Personally I hope that the Swordmage isn't locked in yet, and they can (and will) make some of these changes. Otherwise I'll have to homebrew a fix for the Swordmage as soon as it's released.

[AvatarZero]

I think you've misunderstood my point. The class is almost completely devoid of anything that doesn't directly involve exploding something or making you specifically better at exploding things. Oh, and your alternative class path is what? Protection from Explosion from baddies.

All I am saying is, I think that is true of every 4E class. It's a different game philosophy from 3rd edition. I like and play both.


The class is obviously not designed for you to ignore half the features. Not using implement powers would be against the philosophy of the design, which encourages people to use the most tactically superior option at the given time. If this is how the game is balanced, then I'm effectively shooting myself in the foot.

It's just a class. Is going the Hammer Rhythm route with a Maul worth losing a point of AC? I'm sure it is for some. I'm just pointing out that imagining the Swordmage class must use a sword, while completely logical, is a narrow view. This class has a lot of options.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Considering how so much relies on intelligence and so little on actual strength (and when it's present, it adds additional fire damage, for some reason?), it looks to me like it's more about getting a chance to just connect the weapon with your enemy with your sword so that you can deep fry him with magic. Yeah, you're actually doing damage with the weapon - and yeah, that means you've obviously got to train with the weapon to do that...but the fact of the matter is that you're doing regular weapon damage, and then your added effect is just slapping on some magic. Why doesn't the swordmage have, say, Cleave? Tide of Iron?
Because the whole point of the Swordmage is that he uses magic in armed close combat. A fighter who kind of casts a couple of spells occasionally maybe seems pretty lackluster to me, and is exactly the kind of thing the multiclass feats cover *really* well.


I prefer the class system of 3.5 to 4 because I could at least somewhat customize my abilities through multiclassing, and not be stuck with basic attacks that happen to also deal elemental damage.
You're underestimating 4E multiclassing.
You can make a Fighter who multiclasses into Wizard, Swordmage, or Warlock (an STR/CON fighter taking Infernal Pact is pretty darn good, actually). Then you'll be primarily mundane, but have a splash of spellcasting. You could even try a Tactical Warlord into Swordmage for two shared stats.



I do mind that all the Swordmage does is use magic and happens to deliver it using a sword.
He fights in melee combat, using his skill and proficiency with his blade to hit his enemies. That's the Weapon powers.


If I'm picky with my abilities, only using the ones that lack a description of "Fire Slash" or "Ice Counterattack" or "Lighting Juxtaposition", I'm severely limiting myself. The class is not designed so that you ignore half of your abilities.



And I think Aegis of Assault is dumb.
I think it's awesome.


Howabout a Warhammer? I Like warhammers.
If it's that important, I can't see it being a big deal for the DM to let that happen (alternatively, Fighter/Warlock multiclass), but the arcane swordsman, specifically, is a D&D archetype--just check out Bladesingers.


The class is obviously not designed for you to ignore half the features.
Seeing as how you can only take one power of each level, it actually is. If you want to play a swordmage who takes only or mostly Martial.
You could then multiclass into Fighter to pick up even more purely-martial moves--especially for levels where you don't like the Swordmage's availible Weapon powers.


Not using implement powers would be against the philosophy of the design, which encourages people to use the most tactically superior option at the given time. If this is how the game is balanced, then I'm effectively shooting myself in the foot.
Except that all the powers of any given level are viable choices, with a scant few exceptions. The game is NOT balanced for you to have to take a specific one out of four or five powers for level X--it's balanced for you to be able to take any of them (barring you being a high-CHA, low-STR paladin, for example).
A Swordmage taking Weapon powers would have a distinct style from one taking Implement powers--attacking enemies through their armor via a magically-enhanced/flaming/shocking sword, rather than shooting out fire and thunder from his weapon instead of swinging it and forcing enemies to try to brace for the impact or duck out of the way--and seems like it would be perfectly viable.


Some people might like the Swordmage - and that's cool - but I don't. I hope that another Gish class is released.
I don't think you'll get what you want, at least not for a while, because a Fighter multiclassing into one of the caster classes already seems to fit what you want quite well.

[Deepblue706]

Because the whole point of the Swordmage is that he uses magic in armed close combat. A fighter who kind of casts a couple of spells occasionally maybe seems pretty lackluster to me, and is exactly the kind of thing the multiclass feats cover *really* well.

Well, I can't claim to have experienced the multiclassing features yet, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear about the use of spells, though. I said magic should be among the most used weapons in his arsenal - but if it's a gish, I think his powers should be 50% physical prowess and 50% magic. I do not feel this is how it goes in the case of the Swordmage. Looks more like something to the effect of 20/80 to me.



You're underestimating 4E multiclassing.
You can make a Fighter who multiclasses into Wizard, Swordmage, or Warlock (an STR/CON fighter taking Infernal Pact is pretty darn good, actually). Then you'll be primarily mundane, but have a splash of spellcasting. You could even try a Tactical Warlord into Swordmage for two shared stats.

Perhaps. As I said, not enough experience there to really see. I'll have to check more of that out.



He fights in melee combat, using his skill and proficiency with his blade to hit his enemies. That's the Weapon powers.


Yeah, I acknowledged he needed skill to hit people. But, I was just hoping for a handful of abilities that were awesome not because they happened to involve fire.



I think it's awesome.


Cool. Look, I didn't try insulting anyone there, but I already stated my opinion about that earlier in the thread. The reason I said that is because I just wanted to move on, because it just plainly isn't in my interest.



If it's that important, I can't see it being a big deal for the DM to let that happen (alternatively, Fighter/Warlock multiclass), but the arcane swordsman, specifically, is a D&D archetype--just check out Bladesingers.


Nah, probably not much trouble. Probably couldn't have been much trouble for the designers to have made a tiny adjustment, either.

Yeah, it is an archetype. Spellsword is another example (although in the fluff, they specifically note that you can be a SpellAxe, or whatever, too). I think swords are pretty sweet, but I find the idea of limiting it to blades to be unnecessary and annoying.



Seeing as how you can only take one power of each level, it actually is. If you want to play a swordmage who takes only or mostly Martial.
You could then multiclass into Fighter to pick up even more purely-martial moves--especially for levels where you don't like the Swordmage's availible Weapon powers.

Well, this was only in reference to straight-classing, as once more, I've yet to do much multiclassing.



Except that all the powers of any given level are viable choices, with a scant few exceptions. The game is NOT balanced for you to have to take a specific one out of four or five powers for level X--it's balanced for you to be able to take any of them (barring you being a high-CHA, low-STR paladin, for example).

Well, that's not entirely what I meant to imply. I didn't even mean to delve into the whole implement thing - my feelings in the statement prior to that were that any weapon should suffice, not that I should just ignore what could be potentially-good-but-not-entirely-necessary abilities because I'm too stubborn to change weapons.

I do realize everything is useful, but I hate having my limited choices being further restricted because I like different aesthetics. Plus, I do believe some choices simply are better than others.



I don't think you'll get what you want, at least not for a while, because a Fighter multiclassing into one of the caster classes already seems to fit what you want quite well.

Perhaps. As someone already previously suggested, there are ways to obtain what I want - all I was saying is that I like gishes, but do not find this class suitable for my needs.

I wasn't saying I actually expect another gish class to ever come out. It was simply a pitiable statement driven towards displaying dissatisfaction.

[The Mormegil]

Anyone knows anything about Genasis? Racial traits and such? I cannot find anything about them, but I read once that they have a Strength and Intelligence boost, is it true? Other known features? Thanks in advance...

[AvatarZero]

The preview I linked to at the top of this thread has info on Genasi as well. They get +STR, +INT, and one of five element-themed powers. Look for the link to the preview material .zip file.

[Yakk]

Yeah, I acknowledged he needed skill to hit people. But, I was just hoping for a handful of abilities that were awesome not because they happened to involve fire.

Multiclass Fighter/Ranger/Warlord/Rogue to get a more Martial power-source feel of abilities.

The Swordmage is awesome because of Arcane power, not Martial power.

As it happens, because the Swordmage will be wielding a blade, they work well with Martial multi-classing. The main attributes don't line up between the two, but . . .

[Siegel]

The problem with Swordmage beeing a "wrong" gish is : the swordmage isn't a gish it is an Arcane Defender thats why he uses mostly Arcane Power (that's why his powersource is Arcane and not Arcane/Martial )

big suprise he ?

[Mercenary Pen]

Seeing as nobody's mentioned this, I believe Bill Slavicsek has shed some light on Paragon tier swordmage abilities here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080728).

The implication these give is that Gishness is being redone as swordmages primarily, since there was a reference to the Githyanki having their own style of sword-magic in one of the articles.

[Deepblue706]

Multiclass Fighter/Ranger/Warlord/Rogue to get a more Martial power-source feel of abilities.

The Swordmage is awesome because of Arcane power, not Martial power.

As it happens, because the Swordmage will be wielding a blade, they work well with Martial multi-classing. The main attributes don't line up between the two, but . . .

The Swordmage is awesome because of Arcane power? So why does he even bother using a sword? Is it a penchant for sharp objects?

And, multiclassing wouldn't really satisfy me. Neither do rituals. My beef isn't that simple.

I think it'd be neat to cast, say, a Mirror-Image spell and have the illusions surround the enemy, to confuse him, as you beat him down. Or maybe cause temporary blindness as your necromancy spell-slash-thinger taints him with negative energy. Or, maybe turn your skin into iron, and meld your weapons onto your limbs and tear a bad-guy apart as if you were some crazy blade-golem, meanwhile you have damage reduction for a few turns.

And say, have STR do more than grant bonus fire damage to enemies that happen to be adjacent to your actual target. Right now, you only need enough STR to hold a sword to be a successful Swordmage - and there's no option for DEX, either. That just doesn't sit right with me.

[Yakk]

The Swordmage is awesome because of Arcane power? So why does he even bother using a sword? Is it a penchant for sharp objects?
Because his skill with the sword is used to channel the Arcane power that casts the spells.


And, multiclassing wouldn't really satisfy me. Neither do rituals. My beef isn't that simple.


I think it'd be neat to cast, say, a Mirror-Image spell and have the illusions surround the enemy, to confuse him, as you beat him down. Or maybe cause temporary blindness as your necromancy spell-slash-thinger taints him with negative energy. Or, maybe turn your skin into iron, and meld your weapons onto your limbs and tear a bad-guy apart as if you were some crazy blade-golem, meanwhile you have damage reduction for a few turns.

And say, have STR do more than grant bonus fire damage to enemies that happen to be adjacent to your actual target. Right now, you only need enough STR to hold a sword to be a successful Swordmage - and there's no option for DEX, either. That just doesn't sit right with me.
It is not the gish to end all gishes.

It uses Int, Con and Cha as it's primary attributes.

A Swordmage subRogue would use Int, Dex, Cha, Con/Str for it's combat powers.

A Swordmage subFighter would use Int, Str, Cha, Con/Dex for it's combat powers.

A Fighter subSwordmage would use Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Cha for it's combat powers.

A Rogue subSwordmage would use Dex, Int, Cha, Con, Str for it's combat powers.


I think it'd be neat to cast, say, a Mirror-Image spell and have the illusions surround the enemy, to confuse him, as you beat him down. Or maybe cause temporary blindness as your necromancy spell-slash-thinger taints him with negative energy. Or, maybe turn your skin into iron, and meld your weapons onto your limbs and tear a bad-guy apart as if you were some crazy blade-golem, meanwhile you have damage reduction for a few turns.
.. and, in the end, be about as powerful as a Fighter who just uses Martial skills -- as such, would suck compared to the Fighter at pure Martial skills -- right?

(By the end of 3.5e, Gishes could be about as good a Fighter as a Fighter, and have a bunch of spells to back it up. Similar things could happen in AD&D, where a level (12-13)/13 Wizard/Fighter was about the same as a level 14 Fighter in XP total.)

[Tengu_temp]

The Swordmage is awesome because of Arcane power? So why does he even bother using a sword? Is it a penchant for sharp objects?


Because he is still swinging the sword around - just because the powers base on intelligence doesn't mean that there's no actual physical movement and hitting your opponent involved.

Also, swords + magic is just cooler than magic alone. I'll duel anyone who disagrees.

[hamishspence]

which, I think, is something to avoid. As good as a fighter at fighting, + spells, = problem. to have a balanced Gish, something is going to have to be traded off.