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krossbow
2008-07-21, 02:01 AM
Hey, just wondering. Has there been any official rulings on how to treat blackguards who turns away from being a blackguard?





me and my friends usually just allow someone who gets and atonement spell and turns from being a blackguard to a paladin to trade in their blackguard levels for paladin levels, similiar to how a blackguard can trade in paladin levels for perks. However, I'd like to know what the official ruling on this was, if there was any.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-21, 02:03 AM
That rule makes sense. It must be awkward to play a character who loses their abilities when they commit 1 Good act, though.:smalltongue: (To be fair, a lot of people whould probably find the opposite to be true.)

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-21, 02:11 AM
....

So.. a guy who commited atrocity, who was a "Living Fiend" can become a champion of the Gods, an Exalted Hero because he turned away from the path of evil?

I don't think so. I'd say he cannot progress further up the Blackguard class, but he doesn't loose his power. A Warlock doesn't loose his after he severed his pact with the Dark Entity, and since betrayal is the essence of evil, there is nothing wrong with the Blackguard keeping his power for the good cause.

But never will he be able to become a paladin.

Never.

Ponce
2008-07-21, 02:19 AM
....

So.. a guy who commited atrocity, who was a "Living Fiend" can become a champion of the Gods, an Exalted Hero because he turned away from the path of evil?

I don't think so. I'd say he cannot progress further up the Blackguard class, but he doesn't loose his power. A Warlock doesn't loose his after he severed his pact with the Dark Entity, and since betrayal is the essence of evil, there is nothing wrong with the Blackguard keeping his power for the good cause.

But never will he be able to become a paladin.

Never.

Why the double standard?

The New Bruceski
2008-07-21, 02:22 AM
Why the double standard?

Because good is dumb, and kicks out anyone who isn't perfect. That's why Evil has so many members. To be good you must maintain a perfect polish, but Evil lets in anyone who's even slightly tarnished.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-21, 02:25 AM
Why the double standard?

Because good is sacrifice, hard and discipline. Evil is taking everything for you, you never really care about your actions and can mostly do whatever you want.

On the scale of easiness, the most evil you are, the highest it is. You don't have to screw around with the "moral implications" of your actions: you-don't-care. You do what you want to do. It's easy to prove that you are evil. However, it isn't easy to prove that you are a good person to the core, in order to merit Paladinhood. It will take... a long time, and a lot of sacrifice before somegod acknowledge that you are shed of your evil taint and worthy for Paladinhood. So long, actually, that you might be able to qualify in your next life.

Evil and Good aren't mirrors. Good is the bridge of hard choices and good actions in the middle of the great sea of evil. It's easy to stray from it, hard to get back on it.

archon_huskie
2008-07-21, 02:27 AM
To become a blackguard, one must first be a paladin who falls. Then that character makes a conscious choice to become a blackguard. Then that person falls again at being a blackguard. This is a legitimate double standard because we are now looking at someone who has made many conscious decisions to act against their moral compass.

In a campaign I ran, the character would have to do much more than one good act before being restored to paladin status.

this is possible because mercy and forgiveness are good not evil.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-21, 02:31 AM
Because good is dumb, and kicks out anyone who isn't perfect. That's why Evil has so many members. To be good you must maintain a perfect polish, but Evil lets in anyone who's even slightly tarnished.

I wouldn't go as far as that. you can jump back on the bandwagon of good if you'd like and are sincere. However, Paladinhood is a class in itself, wouldn't you agree? A previously evil character my get a shot if he does an awesome quest to show that he redeemed.

But a BLACKGUARD!? Come on people!

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-21, 02:32 AM
To become a blackguard, one must first be a paladin who falls. Then that character makes a conscious choice to become a blackguard. Then that person falls again at being a blackguard. This is a legitimate double standard because we are now looking at someone who has made many conscious decisions to act against their moral compass.
.

Wrong. A paladin CAN become a blackguard if he falls, and has special power because of it. Since a fallen icon of goodness is too delicious for the evil powers, they give him a free ride.

But someone can simply become a blackguard without ever been a paladin.

there no such thing as a "free ride" in the Good side of things.

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-21, 02:33 AM
Once you start down the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny.

Since it doesn't say anything about ex-blackguards, I'd assume that blackguard abilities are not affected by alignment.

However, the paladin entry says that once you stop taking levels in paladin, you can't take any more. Doesn't say you can't start being a paladin just because you were evil before, though...

tyckspoon
2008-07-21, 02:45 AM
To become a blackguard, one must first be a paladin who falls.
.

Not accurate; any character can meet the requirements to become a Blackguard. Paladins just get some extra bonuses, both because it's thematically appropriate and to help make up for all the base class abilities they had to sacrifice to be a Blackguard. Converting Blackguard levels back to Paladin levels may make sense for a fallen Paladin who finds his way back to Good, but it's not necessarily the best route for characters of other classes that redeem themselves.

Mechanically, the only thing that allows for a 'fallen' Blackguard is the alignment requirement, and that's only if you hold to the statement in some of the Complete splats that you must always continue to meet the prerequisites of a prestige class in order to use that class's features. If you don't follow that, it's perfectly fine to just change the character's alignment to Good and use the class normally (although the reformed Blackguard will probably want an atonement on general principles, and the smite goods will probably not be used much anymore..) Blackguards don't have an official Code with mechanical impact or any 'Fallen Blackguard' clauses.

If you want to sanctify a reformed Blackguard, that's easy enough too. It doesn't need to be a full class swap; just change his Evil-based abilities to their Paladin equivalents (detect/smite good becomes detect/smite evil, command undead becomes turn, etc) and switch the Fiendish servant to a Celestial companion. Turn 'corrupt weapon' back into Bless Weapon and make his summon spells call Good creatures.. and you have a Good Blackguard. Which looks a lot like a prestige Paladin, actually.

Ponce
2008-07-21, 02:46 AM
It is not easy to be a blackguard. This isn't the "I-do-what-I-want-so-I'm-taking-your-purse" kind of evil. This is the soul-crushing, baby-eating, all-glory-to-Bane kind of evil. You are striving to be pure evil, which by definition is a strain on anyone who is not of the Evil subtype. Any sort of positive emotion - love, compassion, mercy; any sort of weakness and you're off the team. Most people would have trouble choosing to lead an army of wickedness to go forth and crush and subjugate the innocent. Any sort of comfortable society will reject you. You are forever marked as the willing pawn of some dark power, doomed to be sacrificed to further his own ends. Being a blackguard is tough.

Blackguard is furthermore a divine class, so allowing it to retain its powers after "falling" is not consistent at all with how the game is played.

Good is just as willing to redeem evil individuals as evil is willing to corrupt good individuals.

In short, the paladin rules are kind of silly. But if you are using them, it only makes sense to have the same sort of rules for the blackguard. They are supposed to be opposites, after all. I find the OP's suggestion to be a good one.

GrassyGnoll
2008-07-21, 03:38 AM
If I may throw in the proverbial wrench, what about the 'holy warrior' strain of paladin instead of the 'boy scout' variant. I like to think a paladin's code of conduct is intrinsic to his faith. For example, a paladin of the Silver Flame could fall for sheltering a werewolf.

And thank Richard Baker I don't have to consider fully the moral consequences of my LN paladin of the Blood of Vol (not higher echelon member, of course).

Before any further derailment I think it entirely depends if the paladin can find a patron willing to redeem him. Oh, new moral paradox! Can a former blackguard hiding his identity truly benefit from said redemption, even if his plea for salvation would have been denied considering his infamy?

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-21, 10:31 AM
Well, remember that a Paladin doesn't necessarily need a deity or cause per the core rules. They are champions of Gooodness, and to a lesser extent, Lawfulness. Yes, certain settings (Forgotten realms, Eberron) demand that they choose one. But not all Paladins even have patrons to 'redeem' them. Some just have to forgive themselves (because no one else will.)

Yes, it's completely possible for a Blackguard to switch to being a Paladin, assuming all alignment requirements are met. What is impossible is for an Ex-Paladin turned Blackguard to return to being a Paladin. Once you take a level in something other than Paladin, whatever it is (excepting a few scattered Paladin PrCs) you can't return. It's a path you only walk once in a lifetime.

It's kinda like everyone has a single charge magic item of 'start taking continuous Paladin levels.' Once expended, you can't recharge it. I like to think that's not being too exclusive and elitist on the side of Good. Everyone gets a chance at being a Paladin if they want it, but if you fail there are very real consequences that cannot be undone no matter how much you may want it....

Unless, I suppose, your DM allows the PHBII retraining rules! :smallamused:

Eighth_Seraph
2008-07-21, 10:45 AM
Hrm. This is an interesting dilemma, but I'm going to side Tokiko and the others that would allow the blackguard to reform back into paladin, if for different reasons.

One of the qualities that makes Good, well, good is mercy. Also, in many cases, the final goal of Good is to save or redeem the souls of those on the wrong path. If the blackguard is sincere in his repentance and vows to never walk down that path again (again, sincerely; God will know), then I would allow him to start back down the Paladin path. Now, convincing any divine order or clergy that this isn't some ploy will be another matter. A very harsh Atonement spell would be in order somewhere along this transition, as well.

Vexxation
2008-07-21, 10:55 AM
Yes, certain settings (Forgotten realms, Eberron) demand that they choose one.

Eh, Eberron let's you worship an ideal, it just offers several choices for groups to join. You could still be a Paladin of Good or a cleric of Slaughter.


What is impossible is for an Ex-Paladin turned Blackguard to return to being a Paladin. Once you take a level in something other than Paladin, whatever it is (excepting a few scattered Paladin PrCs) you can't return.

Isn't there a feat, Knight's Training or somesuch, that allows you to leave Paladin levels and then return later? I think so...

EDIT: Yes, Knight Training, Eberron Campaign Setting. You choose a class, and that class does not prohibit future Paladin levels (but any other will).

Pinnacle
2008-07-21, 10:57 AM
....

So.. a guy who commited atrocity, who was a "Living Fiend" can become a champion of the Gods, an Exalted Hero because he turned away from the path of evil?

So.. a guy who was a champion of the gods, an Exalted Hero can become a "Living Fiend" and commit atrocity because he failed slightly on the path of good?

A paladin becoming a blackguard after a single evil action is just as ridiculous. Blackguards aren't slightly imperfect people, they're as evil as a paladin is good.

If you can fall that far, you can climb back up just as far.
It'll be harder, sure. But we're talking about one extreme to the other.
Most paladins who fall shouldn't become blackguards. They just become jaded.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-21, 11:03 AM
I don't see anything thematically wrong with it- One who repents and returns from such depravities is a bright soul indeed, one the forces of good would be loath to loose.You'd still have blood on your hands, of course, and would have one hell of an atonement to go through, but the gods look upon sincerity of the heart.

I'd go with either letting them convert back to regular paladin levels, or with the earlier suggestion of a blackguard that has all his abilities switched to [good] descriptor versions.

As a sidenote, if you're truly desperate, you could always commit suicide a few times then get raise-dead cast for you to get rid of those pesky blackguard levels.

Jothki
2008-07-21, 11:05 AM
Would a fallen blackguard who starts taking levels in paladin build up the bonuses for having paladin levels?

fireinthedust
2008-07-21, 11:08 AM
One of the qualities that makes Good, well, good is mercy. Also, in many cases, the final goal of Good is to save or redeem the souls of those on the wrong path. If the blackguard is sincere in his repentance and vows to never walk down that path again (again, sincerely; God will know), then I would allow him to start back down the Paladin path. Now, convincing any divine order or clergy that this isn't some ploy will be another matter. A very harsh Atonement spell would be in order somewhere along this transition, as well.

Agreed and well-put.

I would also point out that, while the "dark powers" (aka "the senior partners") may find a good creature's fall from grace delicious, good guys would find redemption even more "yummy".

Also: Clerics don't start out at 1st level when they swap deities; they just re-select spells and domains. It could be argued that the Blackguard had developed their spiritual side, which would be re-filled by the good powers of being a paladin. This would be the same as how paladins are swapped for blackguard levels and additional powers: they're just built to be an "alignment warrior", whatever that alignment may be.

Roderick_BR
2008-07-21, 11:16 AM
The Quintessential Paladin II, by Mongoose Publishing. It's a 3rd party company, not directly from WotC, but I'd say it's official.
The class is called Penitent, and man, it's really bad, I mean, the character gets penalties left and right, untill he can fulfill the Final Penance, where he can convert his blackguard levels into paladin levels (although it doesn't say anything about Penitent levels)
For a paladin to fall and become a blackguard is as sorrowful a fate as death itself. For one of the chosen warriors of good to turn away and willingly walk into shadow is almost unthinkable - but still, the blackguards ride at the head of the armies of darkness, twisted mockeries of their paladin brethren. Their foulness is as vile as the paladin is holy. They are the terrible inverse, the dark twin, the fallen star...

... but it is in the nature of good to be forgiving - it cannot be otherwise.

Oh, and if the Book of Exalted Deeds allows creatures evil from their born place to redeem, why not blackguards that saw the errors of their ways?

Tormsskull
2008-07-21, 01:12 PM
If you want the RAW answer, I think that you already have it. No, you cannot go from blackguard to paladin.

If you opinions, here's another one:

No, you can't. IMO classes are more than just a collection of skills and abilities, they are defined by their fluff. Read the paladin description. A paladin is a person so dedicated to good, so intent on upholding the ideals of law and goodness, that the moment you step away from that life, you can never go back.

For a paladin to go to blackguard in the first place is dumb in the sense that it should be SOOOOOO rare as to almost never happen. Of course, since a lot of DMs want their campaigns to be memorable or "epic" they cause things to happen that are so rare that in order to keep that level of excitement, they have to keep introducing even more rare or more "epic" things.

And, this is not even considering the fact that IF a paladin fell and became a blackguard, and then was redeemed, many of them would probably feel so bad about their actions that they would be tormented constantly.

There are two iconic sort of characters that I am thinking of that sort of fit this situation. There is Darth Vader, who goes from Jedi (though I would say even jedi aren't as dedicated to law and good as a D&D paladin) to Sith Lord, and then just before he dies back to Jedi again. Had he lived I can't imagine he would have been a Jedi and went on his merry way as if nothing had happened.

The second is Goldbez from American Final Fantasy 2. He was evil, then redeemed at the end of the game, and so upset at his actions that he leaves the known world because he can't face all of the people that he hurt.

krossbow
2008-07-21, 03:11 PM
Generally in literature and Lore however, the BEST holy warriors/jedis/ect. are those who fall to the worst depths of evil and then redeem themselves.

Usually they are driven to be even MORE righteous before BECAUSE they were evil; they seek atonement, and realize that it is their duty to make their entire lives an act of contrition.

Its similiar to ruroni kenshin, how kenshin despised suicide and would often state how suicide is easy, but living is hard.




For examples of People who fell then redeemed themselves into paragons of light look at Darth Revan, Saul, Siegfried from soul calibur, Cecil from FF4, ect; heck, its kind of the whole point of the prodigal son parable. Even more than the fallen angel motif, people like the redeemed devil.




Besides, its a definite RP thing; the person's not getting any twink abilities from it, but it really helps build their backstory and motivation.

Deepblue706
2008-07-21, 03:53 PM
Generally in literature and Lore however, the BEST holy warriors/jedis/ect. are those who fall to the worst depths of evil and then redeem themselves.

I believe St. Augustine (a Christian) felt that going from evil to good was something to be greatly celebrated, and individuals who experience this are capable of reaching a higher level of goodness (for fully understanding all sides, and finally choosing to side with good).

No doubt, these values instill a strong connection with the thoughts of many in the western hemisphere, which could have very-well played as an influence upon the writings of authors who make use of the theme, and why we also value tales of redemption.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I have never encountered a game where a player had sought to go from Blackguard to Paladin, I would work with them on the idea.

I really don't think I would ever just swap levels, however, since taking up the path of a Paladin isn't something someone just does out-of-nowhere. I'd say it takes a long time to develop the desire to truly be the crusading hero type, not even considering atoning for all the atrocities a blackguard would no-doubt commit. Were they already a Paladin prior, I think it might take a while before they would be truly ready to return to the light. It'd take things beyond my imagination to justify any immediate change.

I would let the ex-blackguard, over time, retrain his levels to that of a Paladin, if he desired to take up the mantle and showed real progress towards becoming a good individual. I do believe redemption is possible. But, if this path is not actively sought-out, they're just an Ex-Blackguard.

Starbuck_II
2008-07-21, 04:02 PM
There are two iconic sort of characters that I am thinking of that sort of fit this situation. There is Darth Vader, who goes from Jedi (though I would say even jedi aren't as dedicated to law and good as a D&D paladin) to Sith Lord, and then just before he dies back to Jedi again. Had he lived I can't imagine he would have been a Jedi and went on his merry way as if nothing had happened.

The second is Goldbez from American Final Fantasy 2. He was evil, then redeemed at the end of the game, and so upset at his actions that he leaves the known world because he can't face all of the people that he hurt.

In both cases: Neither person lost power by turning sides.
In fact, Golbez became stronger (creating W-Meteo with Fu-So-Ya).

Pinnacle
2008-07-21, 04:04 PM
I really don't think I would ever just swap levels, however, since taking up the path of a Paladin isn't something someone just does out-of-nowhere.

The same should apply to the blackguard, though.

Deepblue706
2008-07-21, 04:10 PM
The same should apply to the blackguard, though.

Actually, I find this more believeable, because someone filled with emotion could act unreasonably, become less caring, etc. Remember, the Blackguard is supposed to meet with an evil outsider, and I presume these powers come directly from them. A Paladin who begins to suffer from depression, rage and other negative feelings could sell his soul for promises of power, and the evil outsider would likely feel inclined to exploit that. The good powers that instill Paladins with their abilities probably don't trust someone who just finally snapped out of a baby-killing frenzy, and that trust is important when you want allies, not people to exploit.

Jayabalard
2008-07-21, 04:11 PM
hmm... I'd say that you should do the equivalent of a paladin atonement quest for each black guard level you want to trade in to paladin. Each quest should be harder and take longer than the previous, doing the equivalent of re-earning those levels and then some. Don't allow them to take any additional paladin levels until they've traded in all of their blackguard levels. During that time, you would still have your blackguard powers, but if you use them it negates the purification work that you're doing.


The same should apply to the blackguard, though.It's called a fall from grace because it's fast. You take the fast, easy path. Trading in levels makes sense thematically, since you trade pieces of your soul for that power. Getting your soul back and purifying it on the other hand... that's not something you can do quickly.


In both cases: Neither person lost power by turning sides.I'm not familiar with the second example, but in the first you're just speculating.

BRC
2008-07-21, 04:14 PM
I would say you couldn't fall as a blackguard by say, killing evil people to further your own schemes. You would fall as a blackguard by realizing and admitting that what youve been doing is wrong. It's not that you walk by a puppy without kicking it, it's that you realize it was wrong to kick all the puppies you DID kick. You could say that maybe they keep their blackguard powers, but refuse to use them.

EvilElitest
2008-07-21, 04:23 PM
um, blackguards don't fall for commiting good acts. A blackguard doesn't have any limits on what he can do, as long as he doesn't repent for what he's done so far. He is a free, and evil man


and blackguards do not have to have once been paladins. They just need to be evil
from
EE

Chronos
2008-07-21, 04:36 PM
One of the binder vestiges in Tome of Magic, Andras the Grey Knight, had just this history: He started off as a paladin, was corrupted into a blackguard, and then just one day decided to stop fighting entirely, on either side of the great Good/Evil conflict. He ended up as a vestige, not really existing in any sort of life or afterlife, because neither side would trust him after his double fall.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-21, 04:40 PM
It's not blackguard exactly, but a character in one of my gestalt monster campaign explores this theme. She's playing a succubus paladin, and I'm trying to work into the story the conflict that such a creature must experience. While she is lawful good in her mind and soul, her body is made of the darkest evil and chaos from the depths of the Abyss.

I think it's possible for anything with sentience to find redemption, but becoming a Paladin might be something else entirely. An Ex-Paladin Ex-Blackguard definately could definately be redeemed, but whether they could ever become a Paladin again is an open question. Mechanically, no... but as a DM if there was a compelling enough reason from a story standpoint, I would certainly consider bending the rules.

The only problem I see if if you let people enter and exit Paladin whenever they like the class loses a lot of it's impact, so you should definately only do this in rare cases. It makes the forces of good look foolish if their Paladin servant is constantly switching sides between good and evil.

BRC
2008-07-21, 04:46 PM
I say a Fallen Paladin turned blackguard COULD become a paladin again, but in order to do so they would require some MASSIVE act of devotion to the cause of good. Somthing so big that simply wanting your shiny paladin powers back wouldn't be enough. An Example would be if a Fallen Palladin turned blackguard has a change of heart, and runs into battle against what he sees as undefeatable odds in order to buy time for a caravan of civillians to get away. Even though reinforcements show up at the last second and save his life, he didn't know they were coming and was perfectally willing to die to save the innocent civilians. I would consider somthing like that enough to allow him to be atoned.

In my opinion, such an act should fulfill the following criteria

A. Must support the cause of good (Like saving innocent lives).
B. Must involve intense risk or self-sacrifice for the person involved. and
C. Must not be done for the purpose of getting shiny paladin powers back. In the above example, the blackguard wen't into the battle fully expecting to die. If he went into the battle thinking "Reinforcements are coming, so I'll make a heroic stand until they arrive and then I'll get shiny paladin powers again!" it wouldn't work.

Deepblue706
2008-07-21, 04:50 PM
I say a Fallen Paladin turned blackguard COULD become a paladin again, but in order to do so they would require some MASSIVE act of devotion to the cause of good. Somthing so big that simply wanting your shiny paladin powers back wouldn't be enough. An Example would be if a Fallen Palladin turned blackguard has a change of heart, and runs into battle against what he sees as undefeatable odds in order to buy time for a caravan of civillians to get away. Even though reinforcements show up at the last second and save his life, he didn't know they were coming and was perfectally willing to die to save the innocent civilians. I would consider somthing like that enough to allow him to be atoned.

I'd say that warrants him forgiveness, but not restored Paladin status. Maybe the good gods could grant him a favor, maybe even give him some of his old powers for the fight - but I'd say that in-of-itself still falls short of worthiness of level-swapping.

BRC
2008-07-21, 04:55 PM
I'd say that warrants him forgiveness, but not restored Paladin status. Maybe the good gods could grant him a favor, maybe even give him some of his old powers for the fight - but I'd say that in-of-itself still falls short of worthiness of level-swapping.
Oh I wouldn't let him level swap. Perhaps he would get a gradual one, like lets say he was a Paladin 7/Blackguard 4. After the battle he dosn't get any fancy abilities, but he get's the ability to regain his paladin levels. Perhaps make it so that every time he would level up, he instead gets 2 levels of paladin class features back, which includes swapping his blackguard levels into paladin ones. So the next time he levels up, he could become a Paladin 2/fallen paladin 5/ Fallen Blackguard 4. Of course, the entire time he has to follow the paladins code or all bets are off.

Pinnacle
2008-07-21, 05:15 PM
It's called a fall from grace because it's fast.

A fall from grace doesn't leave you a blackguard. It doesn't even necessarily leave you neutral aligned. It just makes you not a paladin anymore until you've atoned.

Going all the way to blackguard is more than a fall from grace.

Ascension
2008-07-21, 05:42 PM
The way I see it, good is all about forgiveness. Sure, going from Blackguard to Paladin is a drastic change, but as long as you back up that drastic change with drastic action and drastic devotion to the cause of good, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'd even let a player redeem the Blackguard levels for Paladin levels, though I might require them to atone for each level of Blackguard with some outrageously good act first.

Frosty
2008-07-21, 05:59 PM
Oh I wouldn't let him level swap. Perhaps he would get a gradual one, like lets say he was a Paladin 7/Blackguard 4. After the battle he dosn't get any fancy abilities, but he get's the ability to regain his paladin levels. Perhaps make it so that every time he would level up, he instead gets 2 levels of paladin class features back, which includes swapping his blackguard levels into paladin ones. So the next time he levels up, he could become a Paladin 2/fallen paladin 5/ Fallen Blackguard 4. Of course, the entire time he has to follow the paladins code or all bets are off.

Might work GREAT for a story OR a solo campaign. In a party...not so much. You've basically got a completely GIMPED character for the rest of the campaign. What're you going to do, tone downt he monsters by 7 CRs so the fighter-without-bonus-feats can contribute?

Require good rolepalying and huge acts of self-sacrifice...and have that be part of "middle-finger to the dark gods I'm leaving Blackguard" gesture...and then immediately after he can trade in Blackguard for Paladin. In a group campaign, do NOT gimp a character for more than one session, or it's just not fun.

EvilElitest
2008-07-21, 07:33 PM
It is not easy to be a blackguard. This isn't the "I-do-what-I-want-so-I'm-taking-your-purse" kind of evil. This is the soul-crushing, baby-eating, all-glory-to-Bane kind of evil.

You are striving to be pure evil, which by definition is a strain on anyone who is not of the Evil subtype. Any sort of positive emotion - love, compassion, mercy; any sort of weakness and you're off the team. Most people would have trouble choosing to lead an army of wickedness to go forth and crush and subjugate the innocent. Any sort of comfortable society will reject you. You are forever marked as the willing pawn of some dark power, doomed to be sacrificed to further his own ends. Being a blackguard is tough.

Not really, being a blackguard just means that you are an evil divine user, doesn't mean you have to commit yourself to it or anything evil doesn't have limits the way good does
Lordotheducks


If I may throw in the proverbial wrench, what about the 'holy warrior' strain of paladin instead of the 'boy scout' variant. I like to think a paladin's code of conduct is intrinsic to his faith. For example, a paladin of the Silver Flame could fall for sheltering a werewolf.


Paladins code in ebberon isn't any different, so actually you wouldn't fall, because that isn't against hte paladin code (through some situations might make it otherwise, like harberoing an evil wolf who enjoys his powers



And thank Richard Baker I don't have to consider fully the moral consequences of my LN paladin of the Blood of Vol (not higher echelon member, of course).

Well techinically homebrewing, you can't have a LN paladin of Vol, that is more like a cleric or a night


Before any further derailment I think it entirely depends if the paladin can find a patron willing to redeem him. Oh, new moral paradox! Can a former blackguard hiding his identity truly benefit from said redemption, even if his plea for salvation would have been denied considering his infamy?
sign, paladins don't follow gods, can we make that clear. THe paladin code has nothing to do with certain gods, that is crusaders or clerics

can a blackguard become a paladin again? Well yes, if he gets an atonement, but he has to atone for his sins, he can't "fall" the way a paladin can, because Evil doesn't have inherent morals
from
EE

Starbuck_II
2008-07-21, 07:36 PM
Actually, I find this more believeable, because someone filled with emotion could act unreasonably, become less caring, etc. Remember, the Blackguard is supposed to meet with an evil outsider, and I presume these powers come directly from them. A Paladin who begins to suffer from depression, rage and other negative feelings could sell his soul for promises of power, and the evil outsider would likely feel inclined to exploit that. The good powers that instill Paladins with their abilities probably don't trust someone who just finally snapped out of a baby-killing frenzy, and that trust is important when you want allies, not people to exploit.

A Fiendish spider you summon with Summon Monster 1 is a Outsider. In fact, the requirements are very easy there.

Deepblue706
2008-07-21, 07:39 PM
A Fiendish spider you summon with Summon Monster 1 is a Outsider. In fact, the requirements are very easy there.

I uh...don't think that's in the spirit of the design. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a demon or devil of some sort.

Chronos
2008-07-21, 09:59 PM
Fiendish creatures: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Size and Type

Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Fiendish creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.Even by the strict rules, you'd need at least Summon Monster II, for a lemure. But I doubt that any real DM would let you get away with making a pact with a mindless lump of flesh.

Cuddly
2008-07-21, 10:06 PM
There's an online supplement where a succubus takes level of paladin, followed by levels of blackguard.

Why couldn't a succubus take levels of blackguard in service of her dark liege orcus, before being converted by some handsome adventuring cleric or something?

ColonelFuster
2008-07-21, 10:46 PM
I would expressly forbid any further levels in paladin, personally. If they atoned, levels in cleric for their chosen deity may help them make up for the crimes they commited. I generally take classes as defined by their fluff, so Gray Guard from complete scoundrel would be open for buisiness.
Paladins transforming into blackguards, as mentioned before, should be rarer than rare. The topic stinks of PC cheese to me. Heroes should always be tempted towards evil- it isn't a simple game mechanic! It's fluffier than pink cotton candy sitting on a cloud shaped like a bunny named Cootiekins! How easy would it be to just take the money and walk away from the mission? How easy would it be to just say, "um, nope, no magic on this weapon, just masterwork," and pocket the extra 1000+ gold? If the heroes aren't tempted towards evil, the DM isn't doing his job right.
That being said! Zoom-pow, other side! If someone is a Blackguard- a NON-FALLEN PALADIN Blackguard- that "sees the light," well, they just might be a really good case for becoming a paladin. Atone to become good, lawful, you're set, start takin' those levels.
On the other hand, I like the idea of commitng suicide and intentionally leaving behind those levels of Blackguard. That's probably what i'd make a character do if they asked me. I like Eastern flavor.

I agree with EE on things, as always, but there is the little comment of
"Being a blackguard just means that you are an evil divine user, doesn't mean you have to commit yourself to it or anything- evil doesn't have limits the way good does"
I would have to disagree... being a divine caster means that you get your spells from an active connection to something. And, to be clear, evil does have limits. You should not be able to be evil without wanting to take life, happiness, and light away from others:smallfurious:. Your reasons are yours, but if you're not actively pursuing the destruction of good, I would brand that character neutral. Evil should be Pure evil- you know... evil in its elitest form. :smallwink:

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-21, 10:57 PM
Actually, that gives me a good idea for a way to atone a Blackguard- have him and the party descend into the nine hells to kill the devils that hold pieces of his soul- each being a greater devil (At least CR 8, with three encounters before each of same CR), each having a different piece.

EvilElitest
2008-07-21, 11:20 PM
i agree with EE on things, as always, but there is the little comment of
"Being a blackguard just means that you are an evil divine user, doesn't mean you have to commit yourself to it or anything- evil doesn't have limits the way good does"
I would have to disagree... being a divine caster means that you get your spells from an active connection to something. And, to be clear, evil does have limits. You should not be able to be evil without wanting to take life, happiness, and light away from others. Your reasons are yours, but if you're not actively pursuing the destruction of good, I would brand that character neutral. Evil should be Pure evil- you know... evil in its elitest form.
1) Sweet, i am officially a veteran of te play ground now, somebody has finally said they normally agree with me. Horray
2) I'll rephrase that. An evil person isn't forced to follow a moral code the same way a good person does. All good people have to follow some basic morals (don't torture, don't rape, don't mruder ect). however evil doesn't have built in limits. However your point is right, evil people can, and 99% of the time will, have their own moral code and reasons, for example Napoleon would be LE in D&D terms, every roman leader would be evil, most of the characters of hte vinland saga would be evil. However, the isn't inherent to the alignement.
3) Evil doesn't have limits as an active force of the universe. however evil people will have limits, if you see the distinction.
4) oh, cunning use of words, nicely done
from
EE

ColonelFuster
2008-07-21, 11:56 PM
I know we seem like we're digressing, but maybe we're cutting to the heart of the matter here- good vs. evil.

1) Well, of course. There's been a couple cases of TL;DW, but it's good stuff.
2a)"Don't torture, don't rape, don't murder" are standards for most people in general. An insane neutral person is just as likely to torture someone as an insane evil person, in my mind. Not raping your enemies may be a foreign concept to some of the more secluded orcs- even the non-evil ones. Murder is hard to define, and most adventurers end up doing it in one form or another eventually.
2b) Rephrase? "isn'ter"?
3) evil, as a force in the universe, should never seek to help people without some gain for itself.

EvilElitest
2008-07-22, 12:14 AM
I know we seem like we're digressing, but maybe we're cutting to the heart of the matter here- good vs. evil.

1) Well, of course. There's been a couple cases of TL;DW, but it's good stuff.
2a)"Don't torture, don't rape, don't murder" are standards for most people in general. An insane neutral person is just as likely to torture someone as an insane evil person, in my mind. Not raping your enemies may be a foreign concept to some of the more secluded orcs- even the non-evil ones. Murder is hard to define, and most adventurers end up doing it in one form or another eventually.
2b) Rephrase? "isn'ter"?
3) evil, as a force in the universe, should never seek to help people without some gain for itself.

1) Tl DW, whats that b the way?
2) I agree with you that some evil people will have moral qualms about being murder and rape, i just wish to expand for a second
2a) a good person (By alignment) literally can't rape somebody. If he does, he will cease to be good if you understand (remember, in D&D, good and evil are absolute, through right and wrong are not). Anyways, if a paladin rapes somebody, he will fall (no matter what mookie says), he will fall. If he murders (Ie, by D&D, killing somebody unjustly, like an innocent) he will fall. This isn't hte case with evil in D&D, an evil person can do anything he wants, except for repenting and stay evil
2b) a neutral person can't actually torture somebody as much as an evil one, because he will become evil (torture is an evil act). And so while he might justify himself and yet his acitons will change his alignment
2c) don't rape, don't murder vary come culture to culture, some find it a ok, many don't . It vary, and in the terms of D&D, your alignement is affected by your actions
2) Sorry isn't
3) the thing is, evil isn't a logical force in D&D, there is no one true being of evil (other than pun pun). it is a presence, and committing evil actually makes it grow. Evil benifits from the very action of evil
from
EE