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Colmarr
2008-07-21, 05:50 PM
Quick theoretical question:

What happens when a Swordmage uses Lightning Lure on a dwarf?

Specifically, how does the "special" effect of the power interract with the dwarven Stand your Ground racial ability?

Starbuck_II
2008-07-21, 07:30 PM
Quick theoretical question:

What happens when a Swordmage uses Lightning Lure on a dwarf?

Specifically, how does the "special" effect of the power interract with the dwarven Stand your Ground racial ability?

Well, you as a Dwarf are pulled -1 squares. If pulled 1 square, that power is 0 so it fails.

Lightning Lure has range 3, so up to 3 squares. A Dwarf I'd assume would be pulled up to 3 -1.

Instead of adjacent; it would be 1 less than adjacent by a literal reading.
Which means you dealt no damage.

Colmarr
2008-07-21, 08:12 PM
Hmm. That was my literal reading too.

Which means that one of the Swordmage at-wills is useless against one the four main D&D races. Seems like poor planning to me. I wonder if this will be addressed before the Swordmage is officially released or if it's too late for that...

Helgraf
2008-07-21, 11:41 PM
Hmm. That was my literal reading too.

Which means that one of the Swordmage at-wills is useless against one the four main D&D races. Seems like poor planning to me. I wonder if this will be addressed before the Swordmage is officially released or if it's too late for that...

Ummm, yeah, useless against one race out of all the possibilities in the MM. I don't think that makes it nerfed.

Also, technically it's also 'nerfed' against anyone with the Cat Burglar Paragon Path, which grants essentially the same ability.

Against a Dwarf Rogue/Cat Burglar, the power would move the dwarf to two spaces away. Heh.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-21, 11:58 PM
Alternatively, just houserule it: in this case, your range is effectively reduced. You can't pull the dwarf 3 squares, but 2.

Gotta agree with Helgraf, though; PC class powers are not, generally, meant to be used against PCs. It doesn't really matter if one of the big races is immune to this one at-will.

Colmarr
2008-07-21, 11:58 PM
Ummm, yeah, useless against one race out of all the possibilities in the MM. I don't think that makes it nerfed.

I never said it was "nerfed". I simply pointed out that it was pointless against one of the four main races of D&D (human, dwarf, elfkin, halfling). I stand by that statement. I also stand by the statement that it seems like poor planning on WotC's part to me.


Against a Dwarf Rogue/Cat Burglar, the power would move the dwarf to two spaces away. Heh.

I think you're reading too little into the power.

It says that "the power fails and deals no damage". My interpretation of that is that neither the pull nor the damage eventuates. Hence my comment that the power is useless against dwarves.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-21, 11:59 PM
Also, how often do you fight dwarfs in a campain? Even if you do, then its probally only once or twice. And if its more than that, you probally shouldent pick it. It'd be like making a fire based wizard in a campain full of fire elementals.

Colmarr
2008-07-22, 12:02 AM
Gotta agree with Helgraf, though; PC class powers are not, generally, meant to be used against PCs. It doesn't really matter if one of the big races is immune to this one at-will.

Granted, but it's not difficult to imagine the PCs fighting dwarves at some stage (indeed, Dragon 354 included a dwarf villain Mauglurien with the Stand your Ground ability).

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-22, 12:06 AM
Granted, but it's not difficult to imagine the PCs fighting dwarves at some stage (indeed, Dragon 354 included a dwarf villain Mauglurien with the Stand your Ground ability).


Yes, well you now cant use one of your at-wills for one of the encounters during an entire campain. Its just one battle. Once again, just like my post a couple up, you would probally more often than not run into encounters with resistances to your attack types, rather than push debuffs.

Your attacks shouldent ALWAYS be able to work against everything, and no attacks do.

Colmarr
2008-07-22, 12:18 AM
Ok, having run afoul of what I can only assume is the pro-4e crowd (of which I myself am ordinarily a member), let me clarify:

1. I do not believe that the effect that I first mentioned (uselessness against dwarves) was intended or foreseen.

2a. If it wasn't foreseen, then I consider it lacklustre performance by the designers.

2b. If it was foreseen, then I consider it poor game design to make an at-will power that has such an achilles heel.

I take it you all disagree. So be it.

icefractal
2008-07-22, 12:42 AM
Scorching Burst is a Wizard at-will, which deals fire damage.
Against creatures with fire resistance, it will be almost useless.
Most PCs will face more creatures with fire resistance than dwarves.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-22, 02:02 AM
Ok, having run afoul of what I can only assume is the pro-4e crowd (of which I myself am ordinarily a member), let me clarify:

1. I do not believe that the effect that I first mentioned (uselessness against dwarves) was intended or foreseen.

2a. If it wasn't foreseen, then I consider it lacklustre performance by the designers.

2b. If it was foreseen, then I consider it poor game design to make an at-will power that has such an achilles heel.

I take it you all disagree. So be it.

1. Why not? Ok, not ONLY DWARFS have this ability. Some things in the MM also share this same ability, as well as some abilities. I hardly think that they forgot it EXISTED.

2a. Why, because the power isnt ALWAYS effective?

2b. "Such an Achilles Heel"!? I really hope that you are either joking or just messing with us by this point. I do not see how you can be missing the point that powers are not ALWAYS effective. In fact, I'll give you a list.

Cleave is useless against single mobs (Oh NOES!)
Reaping Strike's ability is useless against Minions (How did they not realize this!?)
Tide of Iron is also useless against Dwarfs
Riteous brand isnt very helpful if you dont have a melee buddy nearby
In fact, most leader abilitys completely fall flat if they cant get to an ally
Every single magic spell runs the risk of being utterly useless or gimped because of resistances


The list can go on. And please dont tell me that the fighter abilities arent useless because they deal the same damage as a basic attack, a basic attack that a Swordmage can be using the 2 times he fights dwarfs, runs out of encounter powers, and forgets he gets to pick TWO at-will's....

I simply highly doubt that Wizards just forgot about dwarfs and other creatures with similar abilities. If everything worked on everyone at all times, then 4e combat might as well be that horrible thing that some people think it is: A tactic-less game where all you do is stand still and hit things till they die.

Helgraf
2008-07-22, 02:41 AM
I never said it was "nerfed". I simply pointed out that it was pointless against one of the four main races of D&D (human, dwarf, elfkin, halfling). I stand by that statement. I also stand by the statement that it seems like poor planning on WotC's part to me.



I think you're reading too little into the power.

It says that "the power fails and deals no damage". My interpretation of that is that neither the pull nor the damage eventuates. Hence my comment that the power is useless against dwarves.

Yes, I'm fully aware that since the target can't be pulled into point-blank, it doesn't take the damage either. Please be careful of your presumptions on my behalf.

So we have one power which will not function properly against dwarves or cat burglar paragon pathers.

Man, those halflings must be broken - they have a power that lets them possibly avoid _every power in the game that requires an attack roll against them_.

Nope. Not seeing that this is poor design. If you're fighting a dwarf, use a different power on it. It only takes a brain.

RukiTanuki
2008-07-22, 05:19 PM
I would allow my players to use this ability (to full effect) on any dwarf within (range - 1). It would have no effect on any dwarf at the maximum range. To me, that makes both abilities work the way they're intended.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-22, 05:39 PM
Ok, having run afoul of what I can only assume is the pro-4e crowd

I think that's classic ad hominem. Well done. It's rare enough.

PC powers are not meant to work on PCs. Dwarves are a rare enemy. There's a perfectly reasonable and, indeed, obvious solution, i.e. you can only pull a dwarf to yourself from up to 2 squares away. (Definitely my preferred interpretation.)

Colmarr
2008-07-22, 08:14 PM
Yes, I'm fully aware that since the target can't be pulled into point-blank, it doesn't take the damage either. Please be careful of your presumptions on my behalf.

Actually, you said "Against a Dwarf Rogue/Cat Burglar, the power would move the dwarf to two spaces away. Heh."

Which is wrong. I made no presumptions, simply pointed out your error.

Colmarr
2008-07-22, 08:20 PM
I think that's classic ad hominem. Well done. It's rare enough.

True enough, for which I apologise. I inferred an aggressive tone in Helgraf's and Myatar's posts (and incidentally now in yours) which may or may not have been intended.


There's a perfectly reasonable and, indeed, obvious solution, i.e. you can only pull a dwarf to yourself from up to 2 squares away. (Definitely my preferred interpretation.)

And the ease with which you and RukiTanuki came up with this workaround is the basis for my initial disquiet about the wording of the power.

I am concerned by the creation of a power that is certainly (as in no opportunity to avoid) and completely useless against a certain race. Not possibly useless (like fire spells against creatures with FR). Not less effective (like Myatar's examples). Always completely useless.

I've said all I care to say on the topic. I understand the arguments of Helgraf and Myatar. I disagree with them. And they disagree with me. So be it.