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Nemoricus
2008-07-21, 07:19 PM
Alright, I'm a new DM who will soon be running a D&D campaign with a standard foursome adventuring party: human bard, human paladin, elven ranger, and dwarven druid. They're all new too.

Books I'm using: PHB, DMG, MM, and Draconomicon

I have a few questions.

1. Party balance: I know Druids can be powerful, but with Natural Sell barred, how much damage can they still do? Also, how would the rest of the party hold up?

2. Some of my encounter ideas involve Druids, Wizards, and Clerics, all powerful classes. How do I hold them back without making it seemed forced?

3. I'm thinking of running fewer encounters per day, but at a higher CR than normal, and with more than one monster. Given the above party, how do you think this will hold up?

4. If I temporarily add a monster to the party for an encounter, how would that affect their average encounter level?

EDIT:

5. How badly would things break if I added half caster level to the save DC of spells? Closed: Not a good idea.

6. What prestige classes in the books I have would be good for this party, and good in general?

Frost
2008-07-21, 07:54 PM
5. How badly would things break if I added half caster level to the save DC of spells?

I'll let other people deal with everything else, but for this:

If that's in place of spell level, then everyone just going to optimize CL more then usual.

If it's in addition to everything else then your party is screwed. Unless the Druid optimizes Init, and is competent. Also, no one but the Druid and enemy spellcasters will matter.

Starbuck_II
2008-07-21, 08:03 PM
Alright, I'm a new DM who will soon be running a D&D campaign with a standard foursome adventuring party: human bard, human paladin, elven ranger, and dwarven druid. They're all new too.

Books I'm using: PHB, DMG, MM, and Draconomicon

I have a few questions.

1. Party balance: I know Druids can be powerful, but with Natural Sell barred, how much damage can they still do? Also, how would the rest of the party hold up?

Well, it lowers some of the power.
Druids have four benefits/builds:
Spellcaster
Summoner
Animal trainer
Wildshaper

Best of all, unlike other classes, you get all four. How you specialize is up to you. You are the TRUE jack of all Trades, master of none. Bards just say they are.

Now, you are stuck with going Bear without casting or casting withour bear.
You still have a pretty strong pet and can summon decently.

In Core: I'd peg the Druid without Natural Spell above Sorceror, but below Wizard.
With Natural Spell: Above them all.


2. Some of my encounter ideas involve Druids, Wizards, and Clerics, all powerful classes. How do I hold them back without making it seemed forced?

Druids (did you know animal companions don't increase CR) I'd give the Druid the Shapeshift PHB 2 ability instead of Wild shape.

Cleric... I'm not sure...

Wizard: Evocation specialist! With Conjurartion/Illusion banned.
That won't be too strong.



3. I'm thinking of running fewer encounters per day, but at a higher CR than normal, and with more than one monster. Given the above party, how do you think this will hold up?

That is how it works.
You either do 4 encounters a day with Equal CR
2 Encounters withy CR +2 each
4 encounters a day with 2 Equal CR, 1 CR -1, and 1 CR +1
Etc.

Whatever variation.



4. If I temporarily add a monster to the party for an encounter, how would that affect their average encounter level?

Monster added to party? Or do you mean against party?



5. How badly would things break if I added half caster level to the save DC of spells?


Well, Around level 20, they get a +10 untyped bonus to DCs. I'd worry about how badly the party would fail saves (game never thought anyone would do that idea after all).

Albonor
2008-07-21, 09:27 PM
1) The druid will obliterate any opposition that the rest of the party could face once you reach level 5. Sure, they will get a few good moments but the bard better be very crafty and you better put a few undead and evil guys for the paladin. Favorite ennemies for the ranger too, including negotiation and ambush, not only fighting, so those players can feel usefull.

2) Cleric: make them face the clerics minions first, and have a few of them run away to the boss. He will then spends a few healing spells on his most valuable minions, wich he won't be able to use on himself two minutes latter when you will charge his chapel. Wizard: have him prepared to go on a trip or to summon an angel an so have a lot of innapropriate spells prepared to fight that group. Sorc: make him a dragon slayer without the right spells to fight a druid or a paladin?

3) I prefer that too but keep in mind that certain spells are VERY usefull and NOT having them for the next fight matters more than fighting a more powerful opponent.

4) CR = ECL for ONE character? But it is hardly appropriate

5) BADLY!!!! I am still considering reducing DC by 2 for every spell cast because full casters are so dependant on only one stat. Don't do that.

6) Horizon walker for the ranger, dragon slayer for the ranger and paladin, dragon stalker for the bard...

Hal
2008-07-21, 09:45 PM
1. Party balance: I know Druids can be powerful, but with Natural Sell barred, how much damage can they still do? Also, how would the rest of the party hold up?

The Druid is going to be your primary healer, although Paladin and Bard still make decent secondary healers. Druid spells are still powerful, and a Druid who can turn into a giant bear is still going to dominate melee encounters. New players probably won't abuse this the way an experienced person might, but they'll learn quickly what they're capable of. Just see how things work out, how the rest of the party reacts, and take it from there.


2. Some of my encounter ideas involve Druids, Wizards, and Clerics, all powerful classes. How do I hold them back without making it seemed forced?

The DMG says that a person's CR is equal to their character level, but this is a filthy lie. If you want to make conflicts with other characters instead of monsters, encourage your players to find circumstances where they will succeed. For example: A wizard who has nothing between him and a fighter is a dead man, but a wizard with 10 mooks between him and his foes will just fling spells at them until they die.

You get to decide on spell selection. You're in control. You could run enemy spellcasters as distractions and buffers, and come up with an in-game reason at your own discretion.


3. I'm thinking of running fewer encounters per day, but at a higher CR than normal, and with more than one monster. Given the above party, how do you think this will hold up?

Be careful with this. Make the CR too high, and the monster can one-hit your players, or have AC so high that the players can't hit them back. Additionally, this will favor the Druid once he has wildshaping, as that is a limited ability in the beginning. If he can only do it once a day, and you only have one combat a day, the Druid will use it then and there. If you have 4 per day, then he'll have to use other strategies.


4. If I temporarily add a monster to the party for an encounter, how would that affect their average encounter level?

I've never been very good at that math. I typically boost it by one or two for every party member above 4, depending on how useful that person actually is in combat. An NPC with an NPC class is probably not going to change things terribly, but adding an ogre might.


5. How badly would things break if I added half caster level to the save DC of spells?

At low levels, not so much. Later on, however, this will allow spellcasters to dominate, as that will progress much faster than the saves do. I wouldn't mess with it. Some spells are hard to pull off, but they ought to be for what they do.


6. What prestige classes in the books I have would be good for this party, and good in general?

None, really. The classes you're using are pretty useful just as they are, or don't have good PrCs in the DMG. I don't know about the Draconomicon.

Chronos
2008-07-21, 09:48 PM
1. Party balance: I know Druids can be powerful, but with Natural Sell barred, how much damage can they still do? Also, how would the rest of the party hold up?The bard and the ranger are at about the same power level, and they also have enough of a niche that they can probably fit in OK with the other two, if they play reasonably well (the ranger and the druid are both nature guys, but you can include some things which require stealth, which the ranger ought to be maxing out). Your problem is going to be with the druid and the paladin. Even without Natural Spell, the paladin is going to have a very hard time keeping up with the druid, at what he does best (melee): The druid himself is going to be a really big bear, or something of the like, and he's also going to have another really big bear or the equivalent fighting next to him, either of which separately is at least comparable to the paladin in melee power. All the paladin really has going for him that the druid can't match is Detect Evil, the usefulness of which varies considerably from one campaign to another.
3. I'm thinking of running fewer encounters per day, but at a higher CR than normal, and with more than one monster. Given the above party, how do you think this will hold up?Some CRs are more flexible than others. If it's just a matter of the monster having more HP and doing a little more damage, this is fine, as long as you don't do it too often. But some monsters have abilities that you just can't deal with below a certain level: For instance, if you go up against an incorporeal undead without magic weapons, you're pretty much screwed. I would recommend sticking to more standard encounters for a while, until you have a better feel for how well your players are handling them.

Cuddly
2008-07-21, 10:54 PM
It really depends on how you player plays the druid. Since you're just using PHB, DMG, MM, and Draconomicon, his animal forms will be fairly limited. He'll have to spend a few rounds of an encounter or two a day putting on his battle buffs which means the rest of the party will be doing damage before he does much substantial.

If the druid is played as a caster who likes to hang out in animal form, he really won't be that dangerous. If he really focuses on buffing himself up, he will be a bit more dangerous. But again, just working out of core, it really won't be that bad. A straight up fighter or barbarian will be dealing way more damage, and quicker. They also won't have problems with DR like a druid will, who gets his damage mostly from a bunch of small whacks, as opposed to one big power attacking whallop. Furthermore, if the druid prepares any spells as non-buff spells (which is smart, since he has to do some utility casting!), that just makes him that much more ineffective in melee.

A lot of people on the boards complain that in 3e, fighting characters couldn't contribute anything but damage in most situations. However, in most situations, you need damage. Even if the wizard color sprays that mess of goblins, you still need a fighter to exploit their stunned-ness. Some people like being the guy that disables a whole mess of monsters; others like being the guy who does 50 damage a hit. I've also found that the non-magical characters will come to expect the full casters to be problem solvers, which means that a certain proportion of any full caster's spells/day will be devoted to stuff like transportation, getting around barriers, etc. This means they have to be more frugal with their battle spells.

It really all comes down on how well the other players build their characters, and what sort of roll they want to play. If the ranger goes TWF, he'll be showed up by the druid, since they'll be doing about the same thing (making a bunch of swings), except the druid will be a dinosaur. Archery may add a better element, given that the paladin won't have a flying mount for a while, and killing flying enemies is rather important.

As for throwing full casters at them MAKE SURE THE BARD HAS UMD. Use Magic Device some invis purge, see invis, true sight, etc. will be great. As will being able to use some haste or fly. Also have the full casters be one or two levels below the party, not one or two above.

[edit]
The paladin can do more damage, in general, with a power attacking spirited charge, than anyone else in the party. You may want to try and get your paladin to play a halfling or gnome paladin so he can ride his mount indoors.

tiercel
2008-07-21, 11:48 PM
1. Party balance: I know Druids can be powerful, but with Natural Sell barred, how much damage can they still do? Also, how would the rest of the party hold up?

Sure, druid is strong, but under most normal circumstances it won't break the game (at least until fairly high levels, where anyone with full spellcasting can break the game).

If you are a new DM, I hope you are starting at 1st level -- things are much simpler to manage then, plus the "spellcaster advantage" is least then.

Things to remember about druids:

1) Vulnerability. If your druid optimizes his stats for Wild Shape, before he can wildshape (and whenever he's not) he won't be anything impressive physically at all and will be trying to play pseudo-wizard without the range of wizard spells (and the need to dedicate at least some of his spells to healing). When he *is* wildshaped, remember that he loses the benefits of all his equipment -- at level 5, that doesn't matter so much, but at higher levels it starts mattering more and more.

If your druid wants to be a force even in his own dwarven body, before / besides Wild Shape, he will start becoming Multiple Attribute Dependent which will ameliorate some of the potential cheesiness.

2) Healing. While, interestingly, all the other characters will have at least some potential healing ability (if nothing else, all of them will be able to use a Cure Light Wounds wand by level 4), your druid is likely to bear the burden of the healing, especially if you allow in the strong, healing-over-time Vigor line of spells from the supplement books.

Every spell your druid spends healing his buddies is one less he is using to break your game.

3) A broader point -- if your druid is actually working *with* the party instead of maximizing spell use to buff only himself and win combats on his own, he will be less likely to outshine his partymates all the time. Yes, druid is strong, and easier to be "broken" than other classes, but if your player isn't malicious it will certainly help.

Also, without a full-time cleric or mage in your group, your druid will be hopping to fill the shoes of both. A druid can do it, but he's less likely to be building Super Death Combos if he has certain responsibilities to fill.

4) Animal control. It's tempting to just let the druid's player control, with the same precision he controls his own character, his animal companion and any summoned animals he has in battle. Sorry. A druid doesn't get free mental dominate animal for his companion and summons -- enforce Handle Animal checks if the critters are doing anything more sophisticated than lunging out at obvious threats.

5) Expansions. You indicated that you weren't looking at running a game that is wide-open on the expansion books... and you might want to consider sticking to your guns there. If you want to allow one, or a few, spells in from the expansion books that's great, but if you allow every spell ever printed to be usable, you've just expanded the druid's spell repertoire a ton for free, which can allow for a *lot* more cherry-picking. If you're not ready for that, and for using it yourself, don't allow it.


2. Some of my encounter ideas involve Druids, Wizards, and Clerics, all powerful classes. How do I hold them back without making it seemed forced?

Let me address this again. There is a truism that "spellcasters win D&D" -- but this is not universally true. I find that the tipping point happens gradually around levels 9-12; around level 9 is when caster classes start to really shine (up to that point a well-designed hitter can perform or outperform a caster, often) and by around level 12-13 casters are starting to reach the point of "hey... wait... do we need non-caster hitters?"

So long as you are playing at low to mid-low levels, you shouldn't have to worry about "holding back" casters much or at all. By time you get to a level where casters are starting to become a problem, you will have enough experience under your belt to be able to deal with it better. (Heck, if nothing else, you can saddle your BBEG with the disadvantage of the classic Lone Boss Fight -- or maybe one henchman. Having a big advantage in number of actions to take can outweigh the sheer power of those actions, often.)


3. I'm thinking of running fewer encounters per day, but at a higher CR than normal, and with more than one monster. Given the above party, how do you think this will hold up?

It's doable. If you are really worried about your druid PC outshining your other PCs, then *more* encounters per day is better, simply because a spellcaster who knows he will only face a couple of encounters will be more likely and able to blow his biggest spells in every fight.

On the flipside, you only have one character who will be able to seriously "nova" like this, and you can keep him busy healing his buddies during/after a fight.

And the best remedy against "spellcaster nova" is to *occasionally* vary the number of fights per day -- a spellcaster won't blow all his spells if he thinks there is at least a reasonable chance of another (or more than one other) significant fight that day. You can still have fewer encounters per day most of the time... but occasionally have 4 or 5 smaller ones just to keep your players on their toes.


4. If I temporarily add a monster to the party for an encounter, how would that affect their average encounter level?

Wing it. CR is infamously not the same as ECL; while CR is in most (but not all) cases a reasonable, if rough, guide to the challenge a monster gives in opposition, many monsters don't have an ECL (and when they do, they are often pretty ridiculous).

I'd guess that, on average, adding a monster of CR roughly equal to the party level would mean the party could probably handle about +1 to the EL of an encounter, +2 if the monster ally is particularly nasty/powerful for its CR/efficient in fighting specific foes faced by the party. Remember to reduce the XP given if you're going to give the party free help.

On balance, I'd say it's a better idea not to give the party a monstrous ally (except for short-term, story-related scenarios, of course). It's just more work for you and steals some of the PC's thunder. (And of course you don't want it turning into a DMPC....)



5. How badly would things break if I added half caster level to the save DC of spells?

I'd disrecommend it. Spellcasting is generally strong in D&D, enough to be well worth it even at the more balanced lower levels. It doesn't really need a boost.


6. What prestige classes in the books I have would be good for this party, and good in general?

That really depends on your roleplaying, as well as the "I just want to try this" impulses of the players (or, dare I say it, any incipient munchkinism). I'd say don't worry about it yourself, and if a player is interested in a PrC, just review it on a case by case basis.

You shouldn't necessarily need PrCs for all of your characters. Druid is quite arguably strongest and best without any PrCs, and while there are a few interesting bard PrCs I'd argue it is very well worth staying pure bard. For ranger, it depends if your ranger genuinely wants to specialize in something -- e.g. become less "rangery" and more of a hitter-oriented PrC... but that also depends how many supplemental books you are planning to allow in. Paladin, if you are powergaming, is a class that ends kind of early if you want maximum potential... but if your build is significantly centered about having a viable adventuring mount, staying in paladin isn't terrible either.

Honestly, if you are a new DM, I don't think you need to worry too much about PrCs, especially if you don't want to be sifting through tons of expansion books. If your players are really interested in something particular, check it out specifically (or even ask here, of course).

I'd say the other reason you shouldn't worry too much about PrCs is that ideally, you should start out from 1st level and... this is kind of a biggie.. don't be in a *huge* hurry to get your PCs up levels. Yes, they should get XP, and they should level up, but the faster you allow them to get levels the more you'll have to deal with, even PrCs aside. Take it slow and easy for a bit, mix in roleplaying and "neat but not expensively powerful" magical trinket rewards with the XP rewards, and get used to DMing before you put too many of the bells and whistles on :)

Frost
2008-07-22, 06:43 AM
However, in most situations, you need damage. Even if the wizard color sprays that mess of goblins, you still need a fighter to exploit their stunned-ness.

They are Unconscious, so a couple Wizard's with Scythes can just Coup de Grace the whole group. Also Rogues are generally better at dealing damage then Fighters anyway.

Nemoricus
2008-07-22, 11:49 AM
Okay, now where do I start?

Question 5 is answered: Bad idea. Alright, closed.

1. So, if I keep the Druid busy with other responsibilities, things aren't likely to get too out of hand?

It still amuses me immensely that everyone in this party has Cure spells on their class list.

By the way, who says that a dwarven druid knows bears well enough to turn into one? Shapeshifting is not a free-for-all.

2. I'm still sifting through replies for this one.

3. Hmm...I'll have to consider this one carefully.

4. The specific event I'm thinking of for this one would probably be a young adult black dragon with a party of levels 11-13. It'd be a one-off with a lich and his undead thralls. Basically, a BBEG with henchmen.

6. I wasn't just talking about for the party. I was asking if any were good in general, and which would be good for the party. Whether or not they actually see use is an entirely different matter.

EDIT: I'm expecting that this game will go from levels 3-13.

Cuddly
2008-07-22, 06:11 PM
They are Unconscious, so a couple Wizard's with Scythes can just Coup de Grace the whole group. Also Rogues are generally better at dealing damage then Fighters anyway.

Granted all the goblins fail their will saves, or they have <2 HD, or there are only that one group of goblins to contend with.

Chronos
2008-07-22, 06:11 PM
If you are a new DM, I hope you are starting at 1st level -- things are much simpler to manage then, plus the "spellcaster advantage" is least then.Yes and no... Spellcasting itself is no great shakes at 1st level (even if Color Spray does instantly end a fight, it's only a couple of times a day, and then the wizard is useless), but the specific spellcaster in question is a druid, and druids have other class features. Take a good look at an animal companion (say, a wolf: Something that a player is likely to choose without any attempt at powergaming at all) compared to a first-level warrior-type (fighter, barbarian, paladin, etc.). If the fighter optimizes well, he'll end up being a little more powerful than the wolf is straight out of the box... But that wolf comes in addition to everything else the druid has (a couple of spells a day, and when those run out, a d8 HD and a club). Even worse, an animal companion is essentially completely expendable: You can order it to take big risks (say, going toe-to-paw with a very dangerous monster), and in the worst case scenario, you can just get a new wolf the next day.

Put it all together, and the druid is the only core class (and one of about three classes total, counting all the splatbooks) which doesn't suck at first level.

tiercel
2008-07-22, 07:35 PM
By the way, who says that a dwarven druid knows bears well enough to turn into one? Shapeshifting is not a free-for-all.

Well, true, though it is probably pushing things to disallow something as common as a bear -- heck, bears live in caves. If the dwarf in question isn't a deep dwarf or duergar, and knows anything about the surface, they are likely to know something about bears as much as any other animal.

Of course, there is more or less a mechanic for this: Knowledge (Nature). The skill doesn't specify a DC for "knowing enough to take the form" of a creature, but it at least gives a starting point if you aren't sure whether to allow something.


I'm expecting that this game will go from levels 3-13.

Only toward the very end of the game are you in any danger of seeing your druid start to really outshine the other PCs. Make sure that you have some cool magic toys for your PCs to play with (non-caster classes are more equipment-dependent than casters, and druids lose the benefit of their equipment whenever wildshaping) and you shouldn't see a real problem.


Put it all together, and the druid is the only core class (and one of about three classes total, counting all the splatbooks) which doesn't suck at first level.

Oh I'll grant you that the animal companion makes a druid pretty nice even at 1st level, but he isn't going to have some kind of universal "spellcasters win D&D" advantage. (If anything, the player may feel that his druid is a bit outclassed by his animal buddy at first, heh.)

Not that other spellcasters actually *suck* at first level; yes, wizards only get a couple of first-level spells per day, but 0-level spells can actually have combat utility when you are level 1. (Not to mention that a wizard with a light crossbow is probably pretty close in ranged attacks to just about any other 1st-level character who isn't a dedicated archer build.) --Additionally, wizards start with Scribe Scroll; while scroll DCs for offensive spells are weak, at 1st level they aren't that much weaker than the wizard's spells himself, assuming the wizard isn't allowed to be some kind of 37-point-buy-equivalent Grey Elf with the 3.0 Spellcasting Prodigy feat.

Of course, if this campaign is going to start at level 3, nobody's going to have to worry about the "1st level blues." Level 3 is alright, though I do have a certain nostalgia for beginning at the beginning :) It is fun when untweaked, unleveled goblins or orcs without using special tactics or terrain are still a viable threat.

Nemoricus
2008-07-22, 09:22 PM
Hmm...if my druid, ranger, or paladin treat their companions or mount as disposable, I might take some sort of action. I'd give them warning before I'd do anything though.

Good point about bears. I'm going to take a leaf out of 4e's book and use DC 15 to identify general properties, with steps of 5 for more detailed knowledge. DC 10 to know the name.

As far as fun magical toys go, I'll ensure that they can get their hands on useful things. I'm also rather fond of useless useful magic items. I'd only put a few out there though, so as not to frustrate my players.

Speaking of which, what cursed items would be good to throw in now and again? Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity has uses, but what else is there?

I'd still like some analysis on DMG's and Draconomicon's prestige classes, including the dragon-specific ones.

Shishnarfne
2008-07-23, 10:40 AM
Hmm...if my druid, ranger, or paladin treat their companions or mount as disposable, I might take some sort of action. I'd give them warning before I'd do anything though.


Well, paladins can't afford to treat their mount as disposable: they take penalties for a month if it dies (I'm AFB right now, so I don't remember exactly what it is). The ranger's animal probably isn't going to be tough enough to swing the balance in most fights. It's either an extra pair of eyes, or something that stands between the man with the bow and the people he's trying to kill. You might encourage RP reasons for a druid not to continually spend animal companions to their deaths...

Regarding the paladin's damage capabilities with Spirited Charge. It's up there. (Triple damage, with Power attack and Smite damage multiplied? That's a nice chunk.) If you wish the paladin to be able to contribute this (without his fellow players thinking he's hogging the show), keep 10ft. wide corridors so that he can bring his warhorse/rhino/pegasus with him.

As your players are less experienced, I'd judge power based on what they show that they can do rather than on the theoretical power levels usually discussed on the 'Net. I wouldn't expect your Bard to be as useful as possible (largely due to spell choices, in my experience), so they might need some prompting about how to pull their own weight.

I didn't see a trapfinder in the party, so keep that in mind.

Regarding fewer encounters per day: I think that this generally benefits classes with limited numbers of per day powers. The typical example is casters (your Druid may go Flame Strike-happy), but it also applies to the Paladin's Smite Evil. Just watch to make sure that the foes you send them against are ones that they can actually take down.

Regarding keeping NPC villain casters from being walking TPKs: Focus on damage, rather than single spells that can take your entire party out of the fight. This has been suggested before, but it's an easy way to get a less-experienced group to think that you're making it a challenge without them realizing that the Cleric's Searing Light is less of a threat than him making himself 10ft. tall with a big hammer when he hears them on the other side of the door... Another focus is to reduce the availibility of hostile caster prep time and buff spells. It's a lot easier to kill the wizard with your pointy stick before he casts Stoneskin and Fly on himself.

That's probably too much heat and not enough light, so I'll stop before the ratio gets too bad.

Nemoricus
2008-07-23, 11:10 AM
Well, paladins can't afford to treat their mount as disposable: they take penalties for a month if it dies (I'm AFB right now, so I don't remember exactly what it is). The ranger's animal probably isn't going to be tough enough to swing the balance in most fights. It's either an extra pair of eyes, or something that stands between the man with the bow and the people he's trying to kill. You might encourage RP reasons for a druid not to continually spend animal companions to their deaths...

I'd forgotten about those month long paladin penalties. I'll keep that in mind.

BTW, it's -1 to attack and damage rolls. Have to love d20srd.org.



Regarding the paladin's damage capabilities with Spirited Charge. It's up there. (Triple damage, with Power attack and Smite damage multiplied? That's a nice chunk.) If you wish the paladin to be able to contribute this (without his fellow players thinking he's hogging the show), keep 10ft. wide corridors so that he can bring his warhorse/rhino/pegasus with him.

I see many outdoor encounters in my party's future, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.



As your players are less experienced, I'd judge power based on what they show that they can do rather than on the theoretical power levels usually discussed on the 'Net. I wouldn't expect your Bard to be as useful as possible (largely due to spell choices, in my experience), so they might need some prompting about how to pull their own weight.

I didn't see a trapfinder in the party, so keep that in mind.

Regarding my bard, what spells would be useful so that I can point them out?

No trapfinder, far fewer traps. I've two RP reasons for why. First, outdoors, not many good places for traps, so there'd be few there. Second, the ruins they will hopefully be seeing are both old, and people lived in them, so again, few traps.



Regarding fewer encounters per day: I think that this generally benefits classes with limited numbers of per day powers. The typical example is casters (your Druid may go Flame Strike-happy), but it also applies to the Paladin's Smite Evil. Just watch to make sure that the foes you send them against are ones that they can actually take down.

I'll keep this in mind.



Regarding keeping NPC villain casters from being walking TPKs: Focus on damage, rather than single spells that can take your entire party out of the fight. This has been suggested before, but it's an easy way to get a less-experienced group to think that you're making it a challenge without them realizing that the Cleric's Searing Light is less of a threat than him making himself 10ft. tall with a big hammer when he hears them on the other side of the door... Another focus is to reduce the availibility of hostile caster prep time and buff spells. It's a lot easier to kill the wizard with your pointy stick before he casts Stoneskin and Fly on himself.

Okay, more blasting, less buffing.

EDIT: Probably should mention that my ranger is likely to go archery.

Chronos
2008-07-23, 11:41 AM
EDIT: Probably should mention that my ranger is likely to go archery.No problem there. Two-weapon fighting, with all of the feats invested into it, still falls a bit short of a single two-handed weapon, without feat investment, in most situations. Archery is situational in its usefulness, but in the right situations, it's quite useful enough.

Meanwhile, while an outdoor (as opposed to dungeons) setting is probably good in general for your party, you probably want to strike some balance between wilderness and civilization. The ranger and druid are both woodsy sorts, but paladins and bards are both well-suited to social situations. Too much of the Great Outdoors will deprive them of the chance to use their high Charisma scores.

Nemoricus
2008-07-23, 02:28 PM
By lots of outdoors encounters, I mean that I expect a lot of travel between locales, like cities and dungeons. That might be a bit tricky, to ensure that travel doesn't get dull. I will have to keep an eye on it.