OOTS #577 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[SteveMB]

Hmmm... so, what's in the sack that she tried for twice before?

Stay tuned....

[Takezo]

Haley wins

[Lissou]

I wonder if she noticed Roy. She seems very calm, and I know I wouldn't be in this situation.
Also, I wonder if Belkar is still delirious. Poor little guy, controlling Roy would be a dream come true and he can't take advantage of it.

[SPoD]

Hmmm... so, what's in the sack that she tried for twice before?

Stay tuned....

It seems like a general robbing, not that she was looking for a specific thing. I presume it's Haley's usual gold/gem/magic item mix.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Um, aren't they forgetting someone?

[SPoD]

I wonder if she noticed Roy. She seems very calm, and I know I wouldn't be in this situation.

Roy has no equipment on, and we've already seen that one human skeleton looks very much like any other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html). She won't know that Roy has been turned into a golem until someone tells her.

[PostMortem]

The more I see of Haley, as the leader, the more I like her. I wonder if there will be a bit of a power struggle when Roy returns. (I mean really returns, not just as a golem)

[SteveMB]

It seems like a general robbing, not that she was looking for a specific thing. I presume it's Haley's usual gold/gem/magic item mix.

You could be right, although the impression I get (Haley said "robbed" rather than "tried to rob" -- maybe I'm reading too much into that) is that she's hit some kind of "jackpot". Note that she acts like she was there for the robbery rather than for Celia (for one thing, how would she know Celia was there, specifically?), and went in despite her misgivings about the city (admittedly, part of that could be a correct assessment that Celia's street dumbs would be a major liability).

[d'Bwobsling]

Um, aren't they forgetting someone?

Belkar will probably go with "the magical cart fairy"

[PePe QuiCoSE]

that robbery probably will get her into trouble with the thieves guild... (as if she didn't already would have them)

[Evil DM Mark3]

Belkar will probably go with "the magical cart fairy"

Um, no. Not him. Roy.

[SPoD]

You could be right, although the impression I get (Haley said "robbed" rather than "tried to rob" -- maybe I'm reading too much into that) is that she's hit some kind of "jackpot". Note that she acts like she was there for the robbery rather than for Celia (for one thing, how would she know Celia was there, specifically?), and went in despite her misgivings about the city (admittedly, part of that could be a correct assessment that Celia's street dumbs would be a major liability).

I got the exact opposite impression.

She said the rain woke her, which means that she noticed that Celia, the cart, and Belkar were all missing. It would not have been difficult for her to follow a cart and donkey being led by a giant fairy through the city, especially if Belkar was puking off the back of it every once in a while. Once she saw where they were, she knew how to get in easily because of her previous robberies. She just helped herself to some more loot along the way.

As you say, she didn't say that she TRIED to rob it twice before, but that she in fact DID rob it twice before.

[eggamagga]

Wasn't Roy right there? Where is he?

[Lunaya]

Um, aren't they forgetting someone?

They haven't tried to leave the castle yet, but I doubt the girls are going to leave Roy's body.

As for Belkar,


Belkar will probably go with "the magical cart fairy"

I don't think he's conscious at the moment...

[The Doctor]

Hmmm... so, what's in the sack that she tried for twice before

My bet is it's the Roy golem.

[Shatteredtower]

Um, no. Not him. Roy.Let Roy get his own magical cart fairy!

Oh. Right. Never mind.

[SPoD]

Wasn't Roy right there? Where is he?

Just outside the frame. :smalltongue:

Seriously, people, there's only so much room in each comic, I'm sure the Roylem will be dealt with in the next one.

[Nevitan]

That was great, I thought it would just be three arrows to the back and a freak out over Roy from Haley but this way was much better, plus I thing they just got the funds for Roy's resurrection because that Grubwiggler guy must of been loaded to be buying all the fresh bodies coming out of a city like Greysky!:smallbiggrin:

[dogmac]

er... Girls.

Haven't you forgotten someone... er.. .something... er... how IS the polite way to refer to a golem anyway?

[r23r5]

Wow.. That was pretty awesome. I wonder what's in the bag.

[HellFireXS]

Yay for Haley and yay for the forums being back up (I'm glad I checked because the forum being up isn't announced in the news sections for some reason)

[Glorfindel]

... but not the City out of the Rogue.

Nice comic again!

[Aurorax]

Ah, so she used to live in Greysky! Loved the fake hump....

[SteveMB]

Yay for Haley and yay for the forums being back up (I'm glad I checked because the forum being up isn't announced in the news sections for some reason)

The current news entry mentions that the new server is up.

[chibibar]

Ahhh.... the good ol days :) Go Haley!

[Ascension]

The current news entry mentions that the new server is up.

I think what he means is that a NEW news entry would be a bit more visible than editing an old news entry.

And I bet Roy's already in the bag. Or at least a bag. At last count Haley was packing what, like eight bags of holding? She probably even knows how to hotwire a golem.

[Ikialev]

Um, aren't they forgetting someone?

Or two semonoes?

[Werewindlefr]

I'm still thinking Haley should have treated Celia as a liability; Haley has an important responsibility, getting Roy back to life and finding the rest of the OOTS; it may be cliché, but there's a world at stake. And for now, Celia has only been able to get in the way and dangerously comrpimise the success of their missions. Haley may be good, she's no paladin; saving people that put themselves in danger willingly in spite of her warnings and thereby threatening the success of their mission is a courageous, but unreasonable move.

[PaladinFreak]

Heh...

Nice.

And, with the "Third time's the charm" thing, it seemed to me that all that was saying was that Haley had just now robbed it again, rather then saying that she got something she tried for the other two times.

[RMS Oceanic]

Looks like Haley is in her element. Barring a sudden swap to Elan's side, I give it fifteen strips top before the thieves guild emerges.

Also, like the new Avatar, Giant!

[chibibar]

I'm still thinking Haley should have treated Celia as a liability; Haley has an important responsibility, getting Roy back to life and finding the rest of the OOTS; it may be cliché, but there's a world at stake. And for now, Celia has only been able to get in the way and dangerously comrpimise the success of their missions. Haley may be good, she's no paladin; saving people that put themselves in danger willingly in spite of her warnings and thereby threatening the success of their mission is a courageous, but unreasonable move.

well.. also Celia is Roy's girlfriend. Leaving on her own and well.. death is not an option. Roy will not be happy about it.

[LtNOWIS]

Oh man, I'm quite surprised that this is the city that Haley grew up in. It makes sense, since there can only be so many cities on the continent, but it has all kinds of Origin of the PCs connections.


Namely Haley spent 6 years at the Thieves' Guild, from ages 17 to 23. She left because she'd never make enough money to free her dad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html), (she subsequently had a lot of her money blown up, than spent the rest on arrows when she was with the Resistance.) But people can't just leave the Guild, so they may still have a death mark out for her. Incidentally, this is probably also the city where Elan went with Sir Francois, and got them robbed.

[hajo]

Roy has no equipment on,
The greenhilt-sword is still very important, even if it is not on FrankenRoy right now.

If they can 'pick' the PIN-lock on the golem, Roy at least can move on his own power, so the cart will no longer be necessary.

[silvadel]

That would also mean that any bags of holding she still has are also full if she is using a regular sack for loot.

Still thinking spock's brain for Roy.

And yes Haley just broke a major thief's guild law -- don't steal if you aren't a member.

[Werewindlefr]

well.. also Celia is Roy's girlfriend. Leaving on her own and well.. death is not an option. Roy will not be happy about it.
I think Roy would have totally understood it if Celia had decided to not put the world at risk just to save someone who willingly decided to put the only people that have a chance of saving it in danger.

After all, Haley had to change and become responsible. She is taking it upon herself to find a way to resurrect Roy and continue the fight. Celia, however, was incredibly selfish, just thinking about "being with her boyfriend again", no matter what the stakes are. It's clear to me that, just as Belkar, Celia doesn't have a place in the Order, because the stakes have become too high and because she refuses to understand the necessary changes in behavior it implies.

[Jammeez]

Haley's robbed herself a bag of holding! Roy, Belkar, Mr. Scruffy, et al are in the bag. :biggrin:

Aw, damn. Still didn't post an original idea. :annoyed:

[Lira]

Huh.... I expected Haley to be pretty upset with Celia, but she seems rather happy.

[SteveMB]

If they can 'pick' the PIN-lock on the golem, Roy at least can move on his own power, so the cart will no longer be necessary.

Or Haley could appy a bit of friendly persuasion to convince Hieronymous to give up the combination.

[disorder]

I'm still thinking Haley should have treated Celia as a liability; Haley has an important responsibility, getting Roy back to life and finding the rest of the OOTS; it may be cliché, but there's a world at stake. And for now, Celia has only been able to get in the way and dangerously comrpimise the success of their missions. Haley may be good, she's no paladin; saving people that put themselves in danger willingly in spite of her warnings and thereby threatening the success of their mission is a courageous, but unreasonable move.
Not sure what you mean by "treating Celia as a liability". Haley couldn't just shrug and go back to sleep when she saw Celia and the cart missing; she had to come to town to retrieve Roy's body, if nothing else. If you're suggesting that once she was on the scene, she should have simply let the golem squeeze Celia to death, then you're mixing up the concepts of "non-paladin" and "sociopath".

I agree, though, that Haley is being surprisingly nice about this whole fiasco...maybe she is saving the "I told you so, you idiot" rant until they're out of danger. Or until she realizes just what has happened to Roy...

[Jammeez]

Maybe Haley has just come to expect this kind of behavior and is resigned. Maybe she really wanted a reason to come back to Greysky. Maybe she even set Celia up, talking about the city and causing Celia to think it'd be a good idea to take Roy there. Reverse Psychology. :amused:

[Mercenary Pen]

The fact is, we know that Haley saved at most one bag of holding from the hotel fire, and we've had no indication that she picked up any since (I'm assuming little or no loot for the battle of azure city- since they lost- and that they were stealing more important stuff whilst running the resistance e.g. air fresheners).

Also, previous strips lead me to believe that bags of holding appear full when there's stuff in them, so we only have Celia's word that it's a regular sack and not a Bag of Holding- which is suspect since she seems to be acting a little ditzy (at least where stuff other than mediation and/or wild plans to resurrect Roy are concerned).

So, to sum up, either the sack is a bag of holding or it isn't.

[Werewindlefr]

Not sure what you mean by "treating Celia as a liability". Haley couldn't just shrug and go back to sleep when she saw Celia and the cart missing; she had to come to town to retrieve Roy's body, if nothing else. If you're suggesting that once she was on the scene, she should have simply let the golem squeeze Celia to death, then you're mixing up the concepts of "non-paladin" and "sociopath".

I agree, though, that Haley is being surprisingly nice about this whole fiasco...maybe she is saving the "I told you so, you idiot" rant until they're out of danger. Or until she realizes just what has happened to Roy...
Well, I'm mostly saying that as soon as they get out, she should send Celia back to her plane. Celia has proven to do more harm than good, even if it's not because of malice but because of selfishness. Of course she couldn't leave Celia being squeezed to death in front of her; it is good for Celia that saving her AND Roy could be done together, though.

[kpenguin]

Hey, the Giant's got a new avvie!:smallsmile:

I'm pretty glad Haley isn't berating Celia about not listening to her... yet. I assume it wouldn't be so the other way around.

[Ninja]

The fact is, we know that Haley saved at most one bag of holding from the hotel fire, and we've had no indication that she picked up any since.

actually, i think she stil has 8 BOH. i got the impression those bags that burned were ordinary....

[teratorn]

Celia has proven to do more harm than good, even if it's not because of malice but because of selfishness.

huh? Selfish? Can you elaborate? I don't get it.


Haley surely isn't mad, in fact she seems to be enjoying the thing: bluffing, robbing, escaping...

[Forealms]

The fact is, we know that Haley saved at most one bag of holding from the hotel fire...

Not quite. The Giant has given us no reason to believe that those are her bags of holding. He gives us a picture of a bag of holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) that looks quite different from the bags holding the gold. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html) So, for all we know, Haley could still have her bags of holding.

[archon_huskie]

Maybe Haley stole 5000 GP worth of Diamonds?

[DBear]

I think we can see :haley: take :celia: under her wing (irony intended) and teach her some street smarts and genre savvy. Celia has already shown some skills, and once she gets the savvy, she'll be a capable party member.

[Theodoriph]

I don't see why Haley should be mad at Celia at all.

Roy's corpse was a liability. It was dragging the party down. Now if they can get the PIN, they have a "lean" mean fighting machine that can help them out a bit until they can get him resurrected.


EDIT: And I also think she stole some diamonds. Well...hopefully.

[hewhosaysfish]

Is is just me or does Rich's new avatar not look very happy...

[Vulion]

Ah, so we have Haley's childhood home, but is it the place of her birth?

Anyway, great comic, Giant.

[Bendal]

Celia will no doubt be reminding Haley that they need the "PIN #" from the mage so they can get Roy to follow them, but Celia doesn't know that Belkar is down there with them. Hopefully he isn't so sick he can't get their attention or he may wind up being someone's new golem fodder...

[MSK]

Heh, heh, the return of the secret door!

[silvadel]

Actually, pin numbers are only 4 digits long -- you could run through all 10,000 of them in a relatively small amount of time.

Actually a little bit of dust on the pad and assuming it was entered at any point and you would know which 4 keys making the number of combinations much smaller.

----

The problem with doing robberies in a town with a thieves guild is that they do have a method to their activities...

1) People who bribe the guild never get hit.

2) People who don't get hit on a schedule -- you do not hit the same place too many times in a short period nor do you hit the same type of place too many times because you do NOT want to become so much of an issue that people start trying to bring in law enforcement. Kind of like in the dark knight where the law enforcement "went over the line" and the mob was backed into a corner making them have to change their methods.

Introduce a random element and the system falls apart.

[Shatteredtower]

Huh.... I expected Haley to be pretty upset with Celia, but she seems rather happy.Well, this is the first time she gets to keep everything she steals at this place. That realization might be helping her mood a little bit. :smallwink:

[Ironwolf172]

Huh.... I expected Haley to be pretty upset with Celia, but she seems rather happy.

Yes I think when Haley says she robbed the place twice already and the third time is the charm she is reffering to something specific. She robbed the place twice and probably only found the usual (gold, magic items ,etc.). This time she found something specific and that is what is in the bag. As for Belkar and Roy they will be focused upon in the next strip or the one after that. Remember this isn't the end of a book just a comic strip.

[brilliantlight]

I don't see why Haley should be mad at Celia at all.

Roy's corpse was a liability. It was dragging the party down. Now if they can get the PIN, they have a "lean" mean fighting machine that can help them out a bit until they can get him resurrected.


EDIT: And I also think she stole some diamonds. Well...hopefully.

She should be mad because Celia didn't listen to her and jeopardized everyone's life by doing so.

[RTGoodman]

I'm thinking Haley might have gotten some diamonds, but I wouldn't be willing to bet on it at this point in the game. :smalltongue:


Hey, the Giant's got a new avvie!:smallsmile:

Yeah, that's the first thing I noticed when I clicked on this thread. I think that's the first time he's had a new one since I've been around, at least.



@Giant: There's a little typo in Panel 2 ("sustanable," instead of "sustainable") if you can and want to fix it.

[Zienth]

So, to sum up, either the sack is a bag of holding or it isn't.

And it's either got a live cat in it, or it doesn't.

[jmucchiello]

The problem with doing robberies in a town with a thieves guild is that they do have a method to their activities...Haley is already wanted by the guild for quitting without permission. So thieving without the guild's permission is kind of low on her list of worries right now.

[T-O-E]

I think what he means is that a NEW news entry would be a bit more visible than editing an old news entry.

But then the considerably more significant 'war and xps' newspost would be knocked off the top.

[Twilight Jack]

My take is that Haley's sack is a bag of holding, based upon her comment about needing a handy haversack. Although they carry less stuff, the main advantage to those is that whatever you need is always conveniently right on top. This makes retrieving any item only a move action. Compare to an actual bag of holding, which requires a full round if it currently holds more than an actual bag of that size could (and who knows how much stuff Haley's lugging around in there).

[de-trick]

was a good comic but now i cant get Brooks and Dunn out of my head

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Very nice. I figured it would be :haley: charging in with a dashing saves-the-day rescue. She should take levels in Dashing Swordsman too.:smallbiggrin:

[Joran]

Heh, heh, the return of the secret door!

Yup. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html

Same rune as the escape door in Azure City. Maybe the Thieves' Guild has an underground network of tunnels?

[Etheric]

Same rune as the escape door in Azure City.

The symbol (rune) is a bit of an in-joke. It is the traditional symbol for a secret door in most PnP DnD adventures.

You would have the wall (the line) and a S across it on the map of things in the adventure indicating a secret door.

[Andraste]

I think the third time's the charm thing was because she said she had robbed the place twice before, and that she had taken out the other hunchback's (his pals, as she said), and that if he tried his luck, the third time would be the charm for the hunchback, and he would be able to stop her. She was obviously being sarcastic, as she had already taken down the other two hunchbacks during her other robberies, and he wouldn't be much of a problem either. The bag was most likely just stuff she was stealing.

[StClair]

I just want to say...

"Fire bad! FIRE BAD!"

[Red XIV]

I'm still thinking Haley should have treated Celia as a liability; Haley has an important responsibility, getting Roy back to life and finding the rest of the OOTS; it may be cliché, but there's a world at stake. And for now, Celia has only been able to get in the way and dangerously comrpimise the success of their missions. Haley may be good, she's no paladin; saving people that put themselves in danger willingly in spite of her warnings and thereby threatening the success of their mission is a courageous, but unreasonable move.

Aside from the fact that if not for Celia, Haley would still be accomplishing little more than being a minor nuisance to Xykon's forces in Azure City...

There's also the fact that Celia took Roy's body with her. Assuming Durkon hasn't gained enough levels since Azure City to learn True Resurrection, Haley kind of needs the corpse to accomplish her mission. Not to mention any treasure that Haley might have acquired from random encounters would probably be in the cart as well, and bringing somebody back to life isn't cheap.

[maxon]

OK - what's in the sack? And where is Roy?

[fractal]

My take is that Haley's sack is a bag of holding, based upon her comment about needing a handy haversack. Although they carry less stuff, the main advantage to those is that whatever you need is always conveniently right on top. This makes retrieving any item only a move action. Compare to an actual bag of holding, which requires a full round if it currently holds more than an actual bag of that size could (and who knows how much stuff Haley's lugging around in there).
Look carefully at panel 5. Haley gets out a SEPARATE, and much smaller, Bag of Holding, from which she extracts alchemist's fire. If it had been a Handy Haversack, she could have found the alchemist's fire more easily. The sack of loot slung over her back, however, is just that - a normal, non-magical sack of loot.

[David Argall]

Haley is already wanted by the guild for quitting without permission. So thieving without the guild's permission is kind of low on her list of worries right now.
Origin this strip is almost absolute confirmation of what most of us have been assuming for some time, that Greysky is where Haley was in her thieves guild days. If we really work at it, we still have wiggle room to deny this, but it hardly seems worth the effort.
Of course, it has been about 2 years since Haley fled town and she really ought to have been forgotten. But it's too story convenient that somebody will remember and notice her, and it doesn't push the odds by an impossible amount.



Very nice. I figured it would be charging in with a dashing saves-the-day rescue.
Strictly, she doesn't really have the time to track down Celia, rob the place, and then do the rescue. One has to assume she pretty much was on Celia's heels as she entered the place, slipped in and decided to rob the place while Roy got golemed, and only showed when things went downhill. It's not impossible, but it is pushing things.



I think when Haley says she robbed the place twice already and the third time is the charm she is reffering to something specific.
It may turn out to be something specific, but since she robbed the place rather than tried to, it would seem it merely means she got a whole lot more this time.



Is is just me or does Rich's new avatar not look very happy...
His last was fairly serious too.



Huh.... I expected Haley to be pretty upset with Celia, but she seems rather happy.
Right now, everything is going well, and is in a rush. The "you stupid idiot!!" talk can wait. How much yelling there will be will depend on how many jokes can be milked out of it. After all, Haley had not been willing to give a really solid reason [such as "I lived there for years and know it won't work"] not to visit the city and so she has to accept some of the blame.



The Giant has given us no reason to believe that those are her bags of holding. He gives us a picture of a bag of holding that looks quite different from the bags holding the gold. So, for all we know, Haley could still have her bags of holding.
Haley's bags of holding are a running gag. She will always have some whenever the situation merits. Even when she loses some, others will be obtained, either on or off screen.



I'm still thinking Haley should have treated Celia as a liability; Haley may be good, she's no paladin; saving people that put themselves in danger willingly in spite of her warnings and thereby threatening the success of their mission is a courageous, but unreasonable move.
Since Celia had Roy, there was no choice but to try to rescue her [or at least be close enough to try]. Haley's ability to take control of Royolem without taking out the others is distinctly questionable. So saving Celia was entirely reasonable.



She is taking it upon herself to find a way to resurrect Roy and continue the fight. Celia, however, was incredibly selfish, just thinking about "being with her boyfriend again", no matter what the stakes are.
The two goals are essentially the same here. Both require the raising, not the golemizing, of Roy. Celia can be criticized for trying a dubious method of reaching the goal [tho Haley is to be faulted for not explaining why it was dubious], but Celia is not guilty of abandoning the goal.



Barring a sudden swap to Elan's side, I give it fifteen strips top before the thieves guild emerges.

1 is not out of the question. 578 might end with something like Haley saying "I'm in bad with the local thieves guild, so we have to leave town..." we switch from inside to an outside view and Haley finishes "...before they find out I am here." and some overwhelming number of armed opponents are present, possibly visible to Haley, possibly not.

[Steveio]

Geez Roberto Haley, hittin' up the same place three times?

[[levi]]

I notice that Haley woke up because of the rain...
...but it's never "just" raining. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html) Coincidence? Probably...

[Red XIV]

;4576404']I notice that Haley woke up because of the rain...
...but it's never "just" raining. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html) Coincidence? Probably...
Like Elan said, it always rains when something dramatic is about to happen. I'd say Roy's skeleton getting golemized counts.

[Morgan Wick]

Roy has no equipment on, and we've already seen that one human skeleton looks very much like any other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html). She won't know that Roy has been turned into a golem until someone tells her.

Like, say, Celia?

[Faramir]

I don't see why Haley should be mad at Celia at all.

Roy's corpse was a liability. It was dragging the party down. Now if they can get the PIN, they have a "lean" mean fighting machine that can help them out a bit until they can get him resurrected.




Not to mention that Haley likes Celia. She would probably have gone to rescue her even if Roy's body wasn't in the picture.

I really see Celia as filling the same character niche as Belkar did. She's funny/annoying in a lawful/good rather than a chaotic/evil way. But as has been seen she can also be quite effective.

[Blaznak]

Ok, I take back all my comments on Celia from the last forum (well, I didn't have much except that I did not think she's a strong center stage character). I think this series will come off fantastic in the subequent book (when ever published). I really like "Haley to the Rescue" and the pacing on it seems perfect.

Later!

[AyuVince]

And once again, Action Girl saves the day!

Cheering Crowd: Hurray!

While Golem-Roy has some advantages to Corpse-Roy (for example, he can walk), I hope they'll fix him good soon. Poor guy has been dead long enough, and I can't stand any more smart-alecky comments from Eugene.

[Doug Lampert]

The fact is, we know that Haley saved at most one bag of holding from the hotel fire, and we've had no indication that she picked up any since (I'm assuming little or no loot for the battle of azure city- since they lost- and that they were stealing more important stuff whilst running the resistance e.g. air fresheners).

Also, previous strips lead me to believe that bags of holding appear full when there's stuff in them, so we only have Celia's word that it's a regular sack and not a Bag of Holding- which is suspect since she seems to be acting a little ditzy (at least where stuff other than mediation and/or wild plans to resurrect Roy are concerned).

So, to sum up, either the sack is a bag of holding or it isn't.

As others have pointed out, we've seen a bag of holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), and the treasure bags lost at the inn aren't them. We KNOW Haley put the dragon treasure in sacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) loaded on carts she had taken OUT of her bags of holding. Bags of holding don't change wieght when loaded (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsV.rtf), so if the treasure from the dragon COULD have been loaded in the bags of holding they wouldn't have needed the carts at all. Hence it follows that the bags in the carts were normal sacks because the bags of holding were still full of the treasure from Durokon's Dungeon (and whatever else Haley is dragging along). It was the Dragon's treasure destroyed at the Inn (see cryptogram translations just after the explosion). Hence Haley's bags of holding (and her double share from Durokon's dungeon) are all still fine.

[Kilarny]

Awesome. I love Haley.
And now Roy can walk on his own...except that nobody has his PIN to give him commands.
Hilarity ensues, as usual.

Keep up the awesome, Mr. B.

[Red XIV]

As others have pointed out, we've seen a bag of holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), and the treasure bags lost at the inn aren't them. We KNOW Haley put the dragon treasure in sacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) loaded on carts she had taken OUT of her bags of holding. Bags of holding don't change wieght when loaded (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsV.rtf), so if the treasure from the dragon COULD have been loaded in the bags of holding they wouldn't have needed the carts at all. Hence it follows that the bags in the carts were normal sacks because the bags of holding were still full of the treasure from Durokon's Dungeon (and whatever else Haley is dragging along). It was the Dragon's treasure destroyed at the Inn (see cryptogram translations just after the explosion). Hence Haley's bags of holding (and her double share from Durokon's dungeon) are all still fine.
Also, if the dragon's treasure was in bags of holding, since (like you said) the weight stays the same regardless of how full they are, Haley could've easily carried all of the bags out of the burning inn. With one hand, most likely.

[Nightfall]

Did I mention I love Haley? I'm sure I must have! This is why!

[Logalmier]

It's lucky for Celia that Haley in a good mood from robbing a castle for the third time. Otherwise I'd expect her to be really mad, but lets see if her luck holds when Haley finds out what happened to Roy. :smallamused:

[Nighthawk4]

Nice one Haley. Sneak Attack FTW. :haley:

[Wagashi]

Haley could have understood where Cecilia was coming from and be a bit of a romantic. She probably knows that she would take the same risks for Elan and while she may be a bit annoyed at the whole thing it ended up working out. She got to knock out a wizard who she probably grew up disliking, golems are a menace to even the best rogues. Cecilia and Belkar acted as a great distraction and ultimately she is back on track to either getting her father out. (maybe whats in the bag could help prove his innocence?) In any case Cecilia only deserves a gentle reprimand i.e. Tell me when you are dead set so we can think it out before your dreams are shattered rather then being kicked out of the Oots. by the way first post hello

[B.I.T.T.]

The reason Haley's using the regular bag rather then a bag of holding is that the regular bag is funnier. They needed the regular bag for the punch line. Just repeat it's just a comic, I should really just relax :smallamused:

In regards to the encroaching berating of Celia, I agree with most everyone else, she's waiting until later to rake her over the coals.

Regarding our boy Belkar, I got a sneaking suspicion he's going to be headed for the Happy Halfling Huntinggrounds sooner rather then later.

[Werewindlefr]

Haley could have understood where Cecilia was coming from and be a bit of a romantic. She probably knows that she would take the same risks for Elan and while she may be a bit annoyed at the whole thing it ended up working out.
No, she wouldn't. Haley is reasonable: she would have waited until she could get to a safe city, and speak with a cleric that doesn't have "roll a sense motive" written all over him. She'd have also listened to someone warning her that the city sucks AND probably doesn't have a helpful cleric.

[ref]

Is this the castle :haley: robbed the big diamond for the guild in OtOoPCs?

[David Argall]

Origin We are dealing with stick art and a limited number of views [maybe we are dealing with back door vs front door], which means we can't be sure, but the presumption is these are different buildings. In Origin, the building has lots of windows, and no moat.

[Red XIV]

No, she wouldn't. Haley is reasonable: she would have waited until she could get to a safe city, and speak with a cleric that doesn't have "roll a sense motive" written all over him. She'd have also listened to someone warning her that the city sucks AND probably doesn't have a helpful cleric.
I tend to think that if :haley: were told that going somewhere is a bad idea but only given vague explanations as to why it's a bad idea, she'd be suspicious of why she wasn't being told the specific reasons.

[Samurai Jill]

I'm still thinking Haley should have treated Celia as a liability; Haley has an important responsibility, getting Roy back to life and finding the rest of the OOTS; it may be cliché, but there's a world at stake. And for now, Celia has only been able to get in the way and dangerously comrpimise the success of their missions. Haley may be good, she's no paladin; saving people that put themselves in danger willingly in spite of her warnings and thereby threatening the success of their mission is a courageous, but unreasonable move.
That's really unfair. Celia won their court case for them, and got Haley off her b*ckside, without which she'd probably still be in Azure City and maybe dead, and she got them past the guard goblins, and helped negotiate with the other resistance members. That's not 'getting in the way'. Plus, she can shoot lightning out of her fingers.

Maybe Celia was being rash, but it's not like Haley's been 100% reasonable in her decision-making, I can't blame her for taking charge. Cut her some slack.

Celia, however, was incredibly selfish, just thinking about "being with her boyfriend again", no matter what the stakes are.
Uh... the whole point of the trip is to raise Roy. Which Haley refused to try and do for no reason Celia could see, again. If Haley had just said 'I'll be hunted and killed if I go back there,' none of this would have happened.

But hey, they have a free bone golem! :D

No, she wouldn't. Haley is reasonable: she would have waited until she could get to a safe city, and speak with a cleric that doesn't have "roll a sense motive" written all over him. She'd have also listened to someone warning her that the city sucks AND probably doesn't have a helpful cleric.
Haley isn't reasonable, she waited way too long to leave Azure City, she refused to get rid of Belkar until after he started puking (though he'd already killed someone they needed,) and she wouldn't say why nobody would help them in the city.

[brilliantlight]

No, she wouldn't. Haley is reasonable: she would have waited until she could get to a safe city, and speak with a cleric that doesn't have "roll a sense motive" written all over him. She'd have also listened to someone warning her that the city sucks AND probably doesn't have a helpful cleric.

She also would have certainly figured out the city is one vast slum the moment she got there.

[brilliantlight]

That's really unfair. Celia won their court case for them, and got Haley off her b*ckside, without which she'd probably still be in Azure City and maybe dead, and she got them past the guard goblins, and helped negotiate with the other resistance members. That's not 'getting in the way'. Plus, she can shoot lightning out of her fingers.

Maybe Celia was being rash, but it's not like Haley's been 100% reasonable in her decision-making, I can't blame her for taking charge. Cut her some slack.

Uh... the whole point of the trip is to raise Roy. Which Haley refused to try and do for no reason Celia could see, again.

She told her it was a dangerous city in which people get killed for their gold. That would convince me not to go there!:wink:

[Ferrous]

I didn't bother reading the parts before this thread, but -

Even though Roy's body is now a bone golem, can that body still be used to raise him?

[MReav]

Hmm...
if this is the city whose Thieves Guild Haley used to belong to, does that mean we're going to see Guild Assassins? Crystal! Crystal! Crystal! Crystal!

[disorder]

Plus, she can shoot lightning out of her fingers.
Can't everybody? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html)

[Red XIV]

I didn't bother reading the parts before this thread, but -

Even though Roy's body is now a bone golem, can that body still be used to raise him?
It's not alive, nor is it undead, so it should work. But just to be sure they could presumably just smash the golem and use the remains for the Resurrection spell.

[dragongirl13]

Greysky City is where Haley grew up! Wow, I just hope they don't run into any of her old Thieves' Guild...

[Coke_Can64]

Hmm, interesting. The theory that I thought would be too obvious actually occurs... Meh.

NOW, what would happen... I wonder:


#1 The obvious one. Haley exits the castle and encounters the Thieves Guild, runs for her life and either:
Gets away (:smallbiggrin:)
We enter another sidequest where Haley gets captured by the Guild (:smalleek:)
Celia somehow makes up or something with the Guild so that they stop chasing Haley... Nah. The Giant wouldn't pull that... :smallwink:

#2 They get outta this place fast and head off in a new directi- Nah, that would cut down on some cool screen time.

#3 The comic cuts to a different set of the Order. (Gack. :smallannoyed:)

[David Argall]

She told her it was a dangerous city in which people get killed for their gold. That would convince me not to go there!:wink:
It would convince most of us, but we have a considerable respect for Haley's talents and knowledge. Celia has had no occasion where she needed to consider Haley's judgement superior to her own. Celia won the court case, and has persuaded Haley to leave Azure City, and got them by the guards. It's easy to overlook that Haley had better judgement at the peace meeting, and at dealing with Belkar. And that they were in territory that Haley knew a lot better than Celia did.
So Celia rashly assumed she knew what she was doing and Haley didn't. It was a bad decision, but not an entirely unreasonable one.

[Generic Archer]

But hey, they have a free bone golem! :D


Actually they got paid to have a bone golem, which is even better

[Werewindlefr]

So Celia rashly assumed she knew what she was doing and Haley didn't. It was a bad decision, but not an entirely unreasonable one.Well, Celia, has absolutely no knowledge of the plane she's in at the moment. Disregarding advice from a local (and a smart local, actually) is quite stupid, yes.

[banjo1985]

Strange that Haley hasn't shouted at Celia yet for running off with Roy. Oh well, I'm sure she'll get around to it soon. :smallbiggrin:

[Wagashi]

I am not arguing that the decision making process was poor on both their heads but it would be poor story if Haley just communicated clearly to Cecilia "Hey Celia don't go to that town, I grew up there and I know that it does not have a cleric to raise Roy." Fortunately Haley seems to be behaving like a real leader would. She has consequences if she flies off the handle and yells at Celia. The first would be that Celia might resent her for it, if you have ever been a manager you know how "helpful" someone who resents you can be. the second could be that Celia might just leave her alone with a sick Halfling and no support to lean on or talk to. Even though the stakes are enormous it is just more of a reason to communicate clearly and not point fingers but work on solutions. I am glad that Haley seems to have given it some thought. She were should give a gentle reprimand at this point, it would be much more effective long term because it makes the one you saved more dependent on your approval. I have no idea if Haley has people skills that good yet certain comments would seem to indicate she has not reached that level of maturity. So you will probably get the blowout you are looking for.in upcoming panels especially when something goes wrong again.

[Nevitan]

That's really unfair. Celia won their court case for them...

not really, with Eugene impersonating the spirit of law and Shojo needing there help with the gates any argument other than "Were Guilty" would of came out with them being set free, and even of they did plead guilty Shojo would of probably just made them work off there sentences by investigating the gates.

[Aquillion]

not really, with Eugene impersonating the spirit of law and Shojo needing there help with the gates any argument other than "Were Guilty" would of came out with them being set free, and even of they did plead guilty Shojo would of probably just made them work off there sentences by investigating the gates.Railroad plot FTW! :smalltongue:

[DigoDragon]

And it's either got a live cat in it, or it doesn't.

I thought it would have both until such a time as the bag was open? But either way works. Well, I suppose a non-live cat isn't a working cat :smallsmile:

Not a bad page. A bit predictable, but not bad.

[David Argall]

not really, with Eugene impersonating the spirit of law and Shojo needing there help with the gates any argument other than "Were Guilty" would of came out with them being set free, and even of they did plead guilty Shojo would of probably just made them work off there sentences by investigating the gates.

However, how much of this does Celia know? That the trial was fixed is top secret information that Roy should not have shared with anybody. After all, once the paladins find out, everything falls apart. Celia has no need to know here, and so should have been kept in entire ignorance that she was just window dressing. She should have thought her efforts were vital.
Now that Roy should not have told her doesn't mean he didn't. Men may not drag a woman into a bed for the purpose of telling her stuff, but it seems really easy to talk about things one shouldn't under those conditions. So Roy may have blabbed. Still, he knew that the fewer that knew, the better for him. So the default would be that he kept his mouth shut and Celia thinks her excellent handling of the case was the decisive factor.

[Ramien]

However, how much of this does Celia know? That the trial was fixed is top secret information that Roy should not have shared with anybody. After all, once the paladins find out, everything falls apart. Celia has no need to know here, and so should have been kept in entire ignorance that she was just window dressing. She should have thought her efforts were vital.
Now that Roy should not have told her doesn't mean he didn't. Men may not drag a woman into a bed for the purpose of telling her stuff, but it seems really easy to talk about things one shouldn't under those conditions. So Roy may have blabbed. Still, he knew that the fewer that knew, the better for him. So the default would be that he kept his mouth shut and Celia thinks her excellent handling of the case was the decisive factor.

Celia doesn't know it, but Haley certainly does. She was there for the big reveal after the trial. If things come to a head and Celia tries to use the trial as proof of her competence, there might be a bit of a shock in store for the sylph.

[SteveMB]

However, how much of this does Celia know? That the trial was fixed is top secret information that Roy should not have shared with anybody. After all, once the paladins find out, everything falls apart. Celia has no need to know here, and so should have been kept in entire ignorance that she was just window dressing. She should have thought her efforts were vital.
Now that Roy should not have told her doesn't mean he didn't. Men may not drag a woman into a bed for the purpose of telling her stuff, but it seems really easy to talk about things one shouldn't under those conditions. So Roy may have blabbed. Still, he knew that the fewer that knew, the better for him. So the default would be that he kept his mouth shut and Celia thinks her excellent handling of the case was the decisive factor.

If Roy did let that slip, I think Celia's reaction would have been much too interesting to have it happen "offscreen" and revealed later. That's another reason for assuming that it didn't happen.

[LordSintax]

so.... the betting is open on how long it takes for this segment of the Order of the Stick to come up against the local thieves guild. My bet is "shortly". And where's the Belkster? and gollum err golem Roy?

[meioziz]

I read all 4 pages, but didn't find anyone explaining this comic's title - "You Can Take the Rogue Out of the City...". Of course I might have missed it, but can someone please tell me what this title references?

Thanks!

[Doug Lampert]

I read all 4 pages, but didn't find anyone explaining this comic's title - "You Can Take the Rogue Out of the City...". Of course I might have missed it, but can someone please tell me what this title references?

Thanks!

http://www.answers.com/topic/you-can-take-the-boy-out-of-the-country-but-you-can-t-take-the-country-out-of-the-boy

Or Click THIS (http://www.answers.com/topic/you-can-take-the-boy-out-of-the-country-but-you-can-t-take-the-country-out-of-the-boy).

Broadly, there's a fairly famous line, "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy." Implying that your hometown and its values stay with you over time.

Haley is still the rogue that likes to rob places in Greysky City from the OtoPCs.

[Ironwolf172]

I think they need to get back to the main plot here. Also I noticed the other day that there were enough charecters to have them guarding the gates. So that means Durkon will die (soon if they want to get the main plot movinb). But they might just have Roy stay dead and have each one of the other heros gets to guard a gate. I just think we should look ahead beyond this comic because frankly you guys just keeo saying the same thing over again.

[Jonathan SCE]

Well after I read the thread and not see anyone that brought up the question, I had to register with the forum and ask the question myself.

How did :haley: remove her alchemist's fire from her bag of holding, or for that matter, even search her bag? One hand was holding the bag of holding and the other was holding the loot sack.

[teratorn]

How did :haley: remove her alchemist's fire from her bag of holding, or for that matter, even search her bag? One hand was holding the bag of holding and the other was holding the loot sack.

If the bag is strapped to her belt, there is no problem.

[Amarsir]

If the bag is strapped to her belt, there is no problem.It certainly looks like it could have been. Also she could have been visually browsing, then put the sack down to grab it if need be (between panels of course).

[Lupy]

I hope that in comic 600 Elan and co. will show up in time to raise Roy after killing the golem, save Haley, and move on. Just a hope though.

[brilliantlight]

I think they need to get back to the main plot here. Also I noticed the other day that there were enough charecters to have them guarding the gates. So that means Durkon will die (soon if they want to get the main plot movinb). But they might just have Roy stay dead and have each one of the other heros gets to guard a gate. I just think we should look ahead beyond this comic because frankly you guys just keeo saying the same thing over again.

I doubt :durkon: will die soon, I think he will die at the end. However I think :belkar: will die sooner rather then later.

[AceOfFools]

She told her it was a dangerous city in which people get killed for their gold. That would convince me not to go there!:wink:
There are all sorts of things that I wouldn't do in life that I'd not give a second thought about if I could fly and shot lightning out of my fingers. Think about it.

I'm suspicious of how happy Haley is at finding her leader's bones missing and having to go into the city she's been avoiding. Especially considering that Celia appears to have abandoned the cart and pressumibly the body itself.

I foresee some sort of explanation.

[Jimorian]

I think Haley just found the rez fee. :smallwink:

[brilliantlight]

There are all sorts of things that I wouldn't do in life that I'd not give a second thought about if I could fly and shot lightning out of my fingers. Think about it.



Flying through the ghetto isn't one of them, too many people have guns or in Celia's case bows and magic.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm suspicious of how happy Haley is at finding her leader's bones missing and having to go into the city she's been avoiding. Especially considering that Celia appears to have abandoned the cart and pressumibly the body itself.

I foresee some sort of explanation.

Well, whether she was angry or not when she went in, she found treasure, so that makes it all worthwhile. :smallbiggrin:

[Coke_Can64]

Aye, treasure FTW. :biggrin:

... actually this would be the best looting :haley: has had for a while. Yay!

[Alex Warlorn]

Just one question. Aren't the ladies forgetting important? (No, not Belkar). Roy's golemfied bones!

[Red XIV]

Especially considering that Celia appears to have abandoned the cart and pressumibly the body itself.
They were going for the secret passage. It's locked now, so like Haley said, they'll have to turn around and leave through the front door. Which should be where the cart is. And they'll pass Roylem and Belkar on the way there.

[Lunaya]

Aye, treasure FTW. :biggrin:

... actually this would be the best looting :haley: has had for a while. Yay!
Hence Haley's strangely good mood. How can she be mad at Celia when there's treasure to be had?

[AWM]

Just to sum up the events that transpired “off camera” :haley:


Due to rain fall Haley wakes in the night notices that Celia, the cart, and Belkar are all missing.

Makes a successful spot or sense motive check to determine the direction/destination of Celia and company (Greysky).

After which she either has to roll gather information to follow Celia’s movement through the city or use urban tracking (from the PH2 right?) to track her.

Discovers the destination Celia has plotted is an encounter level that she (Celia) wouldn’t be able to deal with so goes about using a secret passage she knows about from her days as a thief in this city to gain entry to the castle.

Proceeds to enact heroic protocol saving Celia, Belkar, Mr. Scruffy, and Roy’s skeleton and loot a castle (for the third time).

I feel like this chain of events is grounds to get Haley into some kind of “Heroic Rogues” hall of fame, if her preceding behavior in Azure City hasn’t done so already.

Predictions: Haley’s movement through her old stomping ground are noticed by some old friends & foes alike, and traveling with Roy’s skeleton will become much more of a burden now that he has a semblance of free will (Grubwiggler should still have control of the golem even at a distance).

Overall great strip, congrats all around Giant!

-awm

[Murphoid]

If this were my campaign world I would not allow Roy to be resurected because the spell reads: "You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected." There are no remains left to resurrect, they are all part of a construct that by the rules can't be resurrected.

Of course this isn't my game and Rich can do whatever he wants, but I thought it would make an interesting point for discussion. It may already have, I didn't read that diligently.

[Lissou]

Makes a successful spot or sense motive check to determine the direction/destination of Celia and company (Greysky).

Wouldn't that be a survival check?

[teratorn]

If this were my campaign world I would not allow Roy to be resurected because the spell reads: "You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected." There are no remains left to resurrect, they are all part of a construct that by the rules can't be resurrected.

I think you are very wrong there, I take that as saying that you can not ressurect the golem if it somehow is killed, not the person or persons whose remains were used to build the golem. Your interpretation would conflict with the sentences just before:


From the SRD

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

In the case of the golem you probably don't even need to kill the golem, unless you need to secure a body part.

[AWM]

Wouldn't that be a survival check?


Survival can be used untrained to track but there is a restriction that only rangers (or characters with the Track feat) may use it to follow tracks if the DC is higher than 10, which stormy weather at night would most certainly cause the DC to raise.

One could argue that Haley wouldn’t need to follow the tracks all the way to the city which is why I would only make it a Spot to notice the tracks and have her come to the only rational conclusion that they go to the city. “You notice the wagon tracks leading off towards Greysky city”


-awm :smallsmile:

[wzeller]

I agree. If you can resurrect somebody who has been turned to undead and then destroyed, then that implies that the other sentence where it says you can't resurrect undead is talking about killing a zombie and then "resurrecting" it back to zombie state. You can only resurrect back to life. Since the same sentence prohibited resurrecting undead also mentions constructs and golems in the same rule, that tells me that what it is saying is that you can't destroy a bone golem and then resurrect it back to it's bone golem state.

Which brings up something interesting: What happens if, instead of destroying a vampire, you resurrect them? I think, as a DM, I might give extra XP to a party that came up with that on their own and did it as an alternative to destruction. Of course, depending on how/why they became a vampire, the subject might be unwilling and I don't think you can resurrect somebody against their will.

[Murphoid]

I think you are very wrong there, I take that as saying that you can not ressurect the golem if it somehow is killed, not the person or persons whose remains were used to build the golem. Your interpretation would conflict with the sentences just before:
In the case of the golem you probably don't even need to kill the golem, unless you need to secure a body part.

The reason why I would object is because in order to make a construct you have to house an elemental within whatever is used for the construct. What once were the remains of Roy are now, no matter what, the remains of a construct.

[Traker]

:smallconfused:
If this were my campaign world I would not allow Roy to be resurected because the spell reads: "You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected." There are no remains left to resurrect, they are all part of a construct that by the rules can't be resurrected.

Of course this isn't my game and Rich can do whatever he wants, but I thought it would make an interesting point for discussion. It may already have, I didn't read that diligently.

You make a good piont. But do you want Roy back or not. :smallconfused:

[Traker]

Wouldn't that be a survival check?

Yes that would be a survival check.:smallbiggrin:

[Murphoid]

:smallconfused:

You make a good piont. But do you want Roy back or not. :smallconfused:

Yes, I want roy back.

[Murphoid]

What happens if, instead of destroying a vampire, you resurrect them? I think, as a DM, I might give extra XP to a party that came up with that on their own and did it as an alternative to destruction. Of course, depending on how/why they became a vampire, the subject might be unwilling and I don't think you can resurrect somebody against their will.

It's your game so you can allow whatever you want, but the spell says you can't resurect undead. Vampires are undead. There should be a way to redeem a Vampire. I could see why you might allow it in a storyline where a Vampire wanted to repent.

From the SRD on Creating a Vampire:
"Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to undead ..."
From the SRD on Resurrection:
"Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected."

[David Argall]

The reason why I would object is because in order to make a construct you have to house an elemental within whatever is used for the construct. What once were the remains of Roy are now, no matter what the remains of a construct.

And like the case of undead, once the construct is destroyed, the remains revert to remains of Roy/whatever.

Consider here the purpose of the rule. It is not there to prevent the PC from being raised from golem status. That happens so rarely that the question just does not come up. It is there to stop the player from having a cheap way to keep his golem. [Player spends 80,000 to have a iron golem. It gets destroyed. Player spends 10,000 for ressurection and it's back.] It's an obvious finagle.

[Nevitan]

However, how much of this does Celia know? That the trial was fixed is top secret information that Roy should not have shared with anybody. After all, once the paladins find out, everything falls apart. Celia has no need to know here, and so should have been kept in entire ignorance that she was just window dressing. She should have thought her efforts were vital.
Now that Roy should not have told her doesn't mean he didn't. Men may not drag a woman into a bed for the purpose of telling her stuff, but it seems really easy to talk about things one shouldn't under those conditions. So Roy may have blabbed. Still, he knew that the fewer that knew, the better for him. So the default would be that he kept his mouth shut and Celia thinks her excellent handling of the case was the decisive factor.

Even if that is true it wouldn't matter the current discussion was whether Haley should treat Celia as a liability not whether Celia though she was an important member of the team.

[AceOfFools]

Well, whether she was angry or not when she went in, she found treasure, so that makes it all worthwhile. :smallbiggrin:
Probably, but I still expect to see something to the effect that it's either big or significant treasure as part of the explanation.

[Vanguard]

I wonder if she noticed Roy. She seems very calm, and I know I wouldn't be in this situation.
Also, I wonder if Belkar is still delirious. Poor little guy, controlling Roy would be a dream come true and he can't take advantage of it.

I agree, Haley does seem very calm, and why the frek did they leave Roy behind? :smallsigh:


Also, I like the new avatar for Rich Burlew's new avatar :smallbiggrin:

[Vanguard]

Sweet Comic, I wonder why they left Roy behind?




Third time's a charm right? :smallsmile:

[Duema]

What happened to Roy? Are they gonna leave him there?

[Murphoid]

And like the case of undead, once the construct is destroyed, the remains revert to remains of Roy/whatever.

Consider here the purpose of the rule. It is not there to prevent the PC from being raised from golem status. That happens so rarely that the question just does not come up. It is there to stop the player from having a cheap way to keep his golem. [Player spends 80,000 to have a iron golem. It gets destroyed. Player spends 10,000 for ressurection and it's back.] It's an obvious finagle.

I see this much differently. Try to understand the difference between undead and a construct. Undead means that magic enchants a corpse animating it. A construct means that you have a trapped and subjigated an elemental within whatever constitutes the body. So once the remains of something are used as a construct, they can't revert back to what they were before, they are now the remains of the construct.

By the way it's spelled resurrection.

[Kilarny]

They're more like guidelines than actual rules. :smallamused:

[Murphoid]

They're more like guidelines than actual rules. :smallamused:

Something to work twoards. A statement of the ideal.

[David Argall]

Even if that is true it wouldn't matter the current discussion was whether Haley should treat Celia as a liability not whether Celia though she was an important member of the team.

It may not matter much, but it still speaks to the point.

Our base question is whether Celia made a reasonable call [which turned out wrong] in going into the city or not. If she did, then Haley is largely to blame for mishanding Celia and Haley has no grounds here for wanting to dump Celia.

Haley tells Celia that Greysky city won't work, but pretty much just says "I'm the expert and you should follow my rules." [Her claim that the city has no priest able to Raise Roy is almost certainly wrong, or should be. It may well be that the top priests are evil and not inclined to raise good people, but the very high murder rate combined with rich people wanting the spell says there will be priests wanting to be paid to cast it.] So does Celia have reason to deem Haley the better judge?

The big trial speaks to this since it "shows" Celia that she is highly competent and has excellent judgement. That she should realize that being competent in apples does not mean you are competent in oranges is true, but the percentage of experts who think their skill translates to other random fields approaches 100%. So we, and Haley, should hardly be surprised that she deems it a reason to trust her judgement over Haley's. And since haley knows this, she knows there is a risk that Celia won't blindly accept Haley's judgement.
Of itself, this is minor, but of course Haley has had other experiences with Celia, and they routinely point to Celia not being willing to accept Haley as the expert.
So Haley blew it by trying to be the expert. She needed to explain her decision, not state it. This does not mean Celia is not a liability, but it's not the gernade's fault if you pull the pin and then don't throw it. So we can't conclude from this that Celia is a liability.

[wzeller]

but the spell says you can't resurect undead.

Then what do you make of the previous sentence in the rules:

You can resurrect someone [...] who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

You are latching onto a misinterpretation of the rule that says you can't resurrect an undead. Once you destroy a zombie, that zombie is gone forever. You could still take the remains, though, and resurrect the person who was once turned into a zombie.

The same pair of rules mention golems in the exact same context.

Of course, this brings up a bizarre type of torture: Kill your torture victim, make them a zombie, send them out to kill one of their loved ones, destroy them, resurrect them, show them what they've done and let them live with the horror of it for a week, kill them, zombify them, sic them on another loved one, resurrect them, repeat ad nauseum. Eventually, they'll be so broken that they won't want to be resurrected for fear that they'll be forced to do it again. At that point, you'll have tortured both their mind and their soul into broken-ness. That's pure evil, that is. And you'll know you've accomplished it when the resurrection fails due to the soul refusing to return.

[lord_khaine]

I see this much differently. Try to understand the difference between undead and a construct. Undead means that magic enchants a corpse animating it. A construct means that you have a trapped and subjigated an elemental within whatever constitutes the body. So once the remains of something are used as a construct, they can't revert back to what they were before, they are now the remains of the construct.

By the way it's spelled resurrection.

you are missing a point here, the ressurection spell would not be used to raise a construct, the bonegolem that has been been made out of Roy's bones are a seperate entity from the human Roy, who is the target of the spell.
so all Durkon would need is a small piece of roy, maybe a spare bit of blood or something, and then the spell would construct a fancy new body for him.

doing so would not do anything to the golem, so it it could give ressurectet Roy a decent look at his own spine that no living creature would want.


Of course, this brings up a bizarre type of torture: Kill your torture victim, make them a zombie, send them out to kill one of their loved ones, destroy them, resurrect them, show them what they've done and let them live with the horror of it for a week, kill them, zombify them, sic them on another loved one, resurrect them, repeat ad nauseum. Eventually, they'll be so broken that they won't want to be resurrected for fear that they'll be forced to do it again. At that point, you'll have tortured both their mind and their soul into broken-ness. That's pure evil, that is. And you'll know you've accomplished it when the resurrection fails due to the soul refusing to return.

its a torture that costs you several K in diamond dust each time you cast it, and it would proberly fail at the first casting of ressurection, since the target is aware of who is trying to ressurect him, and can chose not to return.

[rman]

Haley has not seen Golem Roy yet.
I expect some words with Celia when she does.


Munchkin Class:
What happens when you resurrect someone onto their bones that are part of a bone Golem? And then give them control of the Golem (Pin Code)?

Sir Greenhilt the Terminator! With Bone Golem's powers.

[AlexanderRM]

Of course, this brings up a bizarre type of torture: Kill your torture victim, make them a zombie, send them out to kill one of their loved ones, destroy them, resurrect them, show them what they've done and let them live with the horror of it for a week, kill them, zombify them, sic them on another loved one, resurrect them, repeat ad nauseum. Eventually, they'll be so broken that they won't want to be resurrected for fear that they'll be forced to do it again. At that point, you'll have tortured both their mind and their soul into broken-ness. That's pure evil, that is. And you'll know you've accomplished it when the resurrection fails due to the soul refusing to return.

Note to self: Never allowed myself to be resurrected by an evil entity. Or, if I'm evil myself, never allow myself to be resurrected by anyone not my definite ally. Actually, if I'm evil myself, it's more convenient, as well as dealing with many other issues, to just not have any loved ones.

[brilliantlight]

It may not matter much, but it still speaks to the point.

Our base question is whether Celia made a reasonable call [which turned out wrong] in going into the city or not. If she did, then Haley is largely to blame for mishanding Celia and Haley has no grounds here for wanting to dump Celia.

Haley tells Celia that Greysky city won't work, but pretty much just says "I'm the expert and you should follow my rules." [Her claim that the city has no priest able to Raise Roy is almost certainly wrong, or should be. It may well be that the top priests are evil and not inclined to raise good people, but the very high murder rate combined with rich people wanting the spell says there will be priests wanting to be paid to cast it.] So does Celia have reason to deem Haley the better judge?

The big trial speaks to this since it "shows" Celia that she is highly competent and has excellent judgement. That she should realize that being competent in apples does not mean you are competent in oranges is true, but the percentage of experts who think their skill translates to other random fields approaches 100%. So we, and Haley, should hardly be surprised that she deems it a reason to trust her judgement over Haley's. And since haley knows this, she knows there is a risk that Celia won't blindly accept Haley's judgement.
Of itself, this is minor, but of course Haley has had other experiences with Celia, and they routinely point to Celia not being willing to accept Haley as the expert.
So Haley blew it by trying to be the expert. She needed to explain her decision, not state it. This does not mean Celia is not a liability, but it's not the gernade's fault if you pull the pin and then don't throw it. So we can't conclude from this that Celia is a liability.

I disagree. :haley: clearly told her it was a depressed slum where people kill you for your gold. She gets to the city and it appears that :haley: is correct. It is obviously a depressed slum. That should have been enough for Celia.

[Warren Dew]

She gets to the city and it appears that :haley: is correct. It is obviously a depressed slum. That should have been enough for Celia.

Er, no. Celia gets to the city, and no one attacks her for gold. The first person she sees is someone who, far from killing people for money, is "so wracked with guilt over what he did in the heat of the moment that he's bringing his brother in for resurrection".

At least, that's how it seemed to her.

[jasperjones]

As far as :haley: robbing the castle for a third time..reminds me of a cartoon I saw once...I robbed the place the first two times to case the joint...

since i'm at work and can't look..does anyone know the duration of a sap, especially one that was done as a sneak attack?

hmm..can't think of anything else for now

be nice to the newbie *me*