Rules advice: Spellthief and 0th lvl spells

[OverWilliam]

I tried asking about this on another forum, but it was completely ignored and I didn't get my question answered. Then it occurred to me, 'Hey! I'll just go put it on the GitP forums, it's sure to get answered there, since they've got nothing better to do anyways!' (read:compliment :smallwink:)

I am putting together a Spellthief for an upcoming game and one of the things I have noticed is that the 'known spells' and 'spells per day' entries in the CompAdv shows only up to 4th level. I assume this means that a Spellthief cannot learn any spells above 4th, and must steal them from other more magically capable persons if they want to use them. However, the same is true in the other direction; it does not show a column for 0th level spells either. Does this mean that Spellthieves are incapable of learning cantrips? The idea seems to me a little odd, that someone can learn all the way up to Rainbow Pattern and Mass Enlarge Person but for some reason can't get the hang of Dancing Lights or Mage Hand.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I think the answer is no, they can't, just as paladins and rangers can't, if you want a fluff reason, your character is too busy with other thing so he never bothered to learn these useless spells.

[Riffington]

You can always put a cantrip in one of your first level spots.

[Chronos]

You can always put a cantrip in one of your first level spots.You can cast a cantrip out of a first-level "spells per day" slot, but there's nothing in the rules that says you can use a first-level "spells known" slot to learn a cantrip. That said, though, I would probably allow it as a houserule.

The biggest use for this would be gaining Mage Hand, so as to qualify for Arcane Trickster (the one situation where that PrC is worthwhile).

[nargbop]

My vote is : yes, he should be able to cast cantrips. The same number of cantrips per day as first-level spells.
The fluff is "he's soaked in magic", so of course he should be able to pull the minor tricks like Mage Hand and Prestidigitation.

[nargbop]

You can cast a cantrip out of a first-level "spells per day" slot, but there's nothing in the rules that says you can use a first-level "spells known" slot to learn a cantrip. That said, though, I would probably allow it as a houserule.

The biggest use for this would be gaining Mage Hand, so as to qualify for Arcane Trickster (the one situation where that PrC is worthwhile).

Hoo boy. Arcane Trickster allows impromptu sneak attack, wherein you apply sneak attack damage to any attack. ANY ATTACK. Rogue->Assassin(take the Mage Hand feat from Complete Arcane)->Arcane Trickster . Very powerful attacks, launched right into the opponent's eyes.

[Vexxation]

Hoo boy. Arcane Trickster allows impromptu sneak attack, wherein you apply sneak attack damage to any attack. ANY ATTACK. Rogue->Assassin(take the Mage Hand feat from Complete Arcane)->Arcane Trickster . Very powerful attacks, launched right into the opponent's eyes.

You can only Impromptu Sneak Attack a max of twice per day, and that requires 7 levels of Arcane Trickster.

So I wouldn't say "any attack" although I concede, that is different from "every attack."

Just wanted to clear that up to anyone who didn't know.