The Gender of an Elf? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Ironwolf172

2008-07-22, 12:05 PM

We are all familiar with Vaarsuvius the arcan spellcaster in OOTS. V is reffered to as a man and a woman in the comic many times. It is a running gag of the story while subtle it is quite noticeable if you are looking for it. So what are your thoughts and what do you think about V?

(Also just for fun I think that V's name is a spinoff of Vesivus the online DandD shopping website. Just a thought.)

The_Ferg

2008-07-22, 12:12 PM

Okay, even though this has been done now for the umpteenth time, I'll bite.

I tend to refer to V as a female.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure V is named after Vesuvius, the volcano which destroyed Pompeii. Interestingly enough, V's counter in the Linear Guild (2nd Edition) was Pompey. Also curiously, there was a guy named Pompey who married Julius Caesar's daughter, Julia, and Pompey in OOTS had a thing for Julia Greenhilt. Hmmm....

Regneva

2008-07-22, 12:12 PM

Gee. What an original question...

Calamity

2008-07-22, 12:14 PM

Actually Vaarsuvius' name is more likey a reference to the well-known volcano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesuvius) that destoryed Pompeii

EDIT: Oh, those ninjas get me every time.

An Enemy Spy

2008-07-22, 12:26 PM

I bet in the end Vs gender will be revealed to the rest of the group (offscreen of course) but they will not say anything that reveals it to you

d'Bwobsling

2008-07-22, 12:33 PM

Not to be rude or anything, but this question has been posted about 1000 times allready

Logalmier

2008-07-22, 06:12 PM

I've always thought of V as female, even though as I read the comic I release that I'm probably wrong.
I think the greatest evidence on the subject is this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html).

But aside from that V's gender is meant to be ambiguous.

mikeejimbo

2008-07-22, 06:26 PM

B.I.T.T.

2008-07-22, 07:18 PM

Well....

Vaarsuvius's gender is clearly....welll.....is...

Well let's talk about the name real quick.

I think Vaarsuvius is kind of a play on Mount Vesuvius, which is why his Linear Guild counterpart was named Pompey, because it sounds a bit like Pompeii. In regards to names, Pompey is also very different because it's a somewhat short, simple name, whereas Vaarsuvius is such a long name that his team mates routinely shorten it to just "V". In face, I wouldn't be a bit suprised to find out that V is somehow the Pompmeister's parent.

That having been said, it's clear that Vaarsuvius' gender is....well I mean it's fairly obvious that....that V's....

Did I mention the name thing?

Lurk-Sothoth

2008-07-22, 07:36 PM

Heh, I hadn't even made that connection until you pointed it out!

See, these threads aren't all bad.

Same here. I read these forums pretty often and had never seen the Vesuvius/Pompeii "link" with Vaarsuvius/Pompey. :D

It is just interesting to me how much people focus on gender.

ALTHOUGH, now that I think about it, about 12 years ago (prehistory in internet years) I came across this really fascinating DnD homebrew online. Some guy had, as I recall, six different genders for elves and all six of them were required to make one elf baby. In this world, an elf couple or threesome would be horribly scandalous whereas six elves in a marriage was normative.

T-O-E

2008-07-22, 07:41 PM

I always thought of him as a male, now i'm not sure.

herrhauptmann

2008-07-22, 07:43 PM

I tend to think of V as a female. Primarily because Haley will only room with V in the hotels.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html

As for the Linear Guild, well V is an elf, with no clearly established gender. Zz'drti was a sorceror and a Drow, and male. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html

Pompey, (avoiding teh whole pun of his name and the Volcano) was a half elf, wore opposite colors from V. His specialist school was the one that V has as a barred school. And, Pompey has a clearly established gender (hitting on Julia)

Chosen schools:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html

Lupy

2008-07-23, 09:17 PM

These threads crop up alot, try looking back for them in the first 3 pages, but since this is your first thread ((I think)) I forgive you. I think of V as male, but these are good arguments for her being female. I tend to explain hir rooming with Haley as Haley knowing V wont "put the moves on her." Additionally, as an elf, V is naturally less visiually sexed, since htey tend to all look effeminate (I think so at least). I explain both oppisites, (Although the drow was fairly unisex too), as having their clearly established sex as an oppisite from difficult-to-tell V.

Spiky

2008-07-24, 12:32 AM

NENAD

2008-07-24, 12:37 AM

Vaarsuvius always came off as male to me. Why? 'Us' is the masculine ending for a name in latin. He isn't called Vaarsuvia, and that may be for a reason.

But I doubt it.

Jade_Tarem

2008-07-24, 12:41 AM

ALTHOUGH, now that I think about it, about 12 years ago (prehistory in internet years) I came across this really fascinating DnD homebrew online. Some guy had, as I recall, six different genders for elves and all six of them were required to make one elf baby. In this world, an elf couple or threesome would be horribly scandalous whereas six elves in a marriage was normative.

So... now we have even more subtypes of elves corresponding to any heximal fraction? I wouldn't be surprised if this created dangerous crossbreeds. (http://xkcd.com/419/)

yanmaodao

2008-07-24, 09:04 AM

Well, at the risk of pissing off established posters, I'm going to give this OP a serious reply. I've just joined and I haven't been around to see those earlier threads.

I think Vaarsuvius is male. The reason I think that is that hir gender ambiguity is meant to be a joke, and the effeminate man is a much bigger staple of comedy than the masculine woman.

But... Rich Burlew could be a comedic trope gender-bender. So you never know.

Linkavitch

2008-07-24, 12:13 PM

I tend to think as V as a male, thats just how I see... it.

xyzzy

2008-07-24, 03:12 PM

I do not associate Vaarsuvius with gender. I just think "Vaarsuvius".

Siosilvar

2008-07-24, 03:26 PM

As for the Linear Guild, well V is an elf, with no clearly established gender. Zz'drti was a sorceror and a Drow, and male. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html

Pompey, (avoiding teh whole pun of his name and the Volcano) was a half elf, wore opposite colors from V. His specialist school was the one that V has as a barred school. And, Pompey has a clearly established gender (hitting on Julia)

What is the opposite of ambiguous gender? Clearly established gender.

And if you don't remember, they chose Pompey because A) apprentice (competence is inverted), B) specialist school, C) color scheme, and D) clearly established gender.

Not to be rude or anything, but you haven't proven anything.

Elder Tsofu

2008-07-24, 03:39 PM

I've always thought of V as a male character - camping with Haley I've always thought of something speciesrelated.

But one thing that probably come up before is: Why can't elves in OOTS be hermaphrodites?
That would explain why everyone calls it "him" or "her" (depending on personal preference) - for both terms are quite right at the same time.

Just a thought.

Bayar

2008-07-24, 03:40 PM

Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?

A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception.not the actual reality of the situation.

Relevant.

I still vote for androgynous.

herrhauptmann

2008-07-24, 06:34 PM

What is the opposite of ambiguous gender? Clearly established gender.

And if you don't remember, they chose Pompey because A) apprentice (competence is inverted), B) specialist school, C) color scheme, and D) clearly established gender.

Not to be rude or anything, but you haven't proven anything.

If you're going to quote me, quote the whole thing. I did specify everything about Pompey you mentioned, but also included the subject of his specialist and barred schools. His specialist is V's barred, and V can cast from all of Pompey's barred schools.
As for Zz'drti, Elan refers to him saying "He doesn't talk much." Again, a CLEARLY ESTABLISHED GENDER.

Now that I've covered that. What exactly was the point of your post?

hamishspence

2008-07-25, 04:02 AM

Other people talking about gender is not as good evidence as the person themself. From V-man to "help! Whore attack" V's gender may be referred to, but not by V.

By contrast, Pompey's words "I might be the man for you" are self-referential, and when a person calls themself a man, that is more direct.

Evil Opposite scheme might have been less developed for Zz'dtri. Or, despite looking like V with a palatte swap, zz'dtri might be less ambiguous.

SPoD

2008-07-25, 04:15 AM

(Also just for fun I think that V's name is a spinoff of Vesivus the online DandD shopping website. Just a thought.)

A quick look at this "Vesivus" website indicates that the physical store that hosts it was only founded in August 2003; Rich began OOTS in September of 2003. There's no way this store (or website) was even remotely noteworthy one month after it was founded, especially given that it is located in Edmonton, Canada, and Rich lives in New York City.

I'm not entirely sure it's noteworthy now, actually.

Liwen

2008-07-25, 06:21 AM

I though to mods were supposed to lock up those treads about V's gender, like they do for Belkar's hatred treads. Anyway, I'll put my two cents in before they do.

Male elves in D&D and many other fantasy universe always look effeminate because of their frail constitution. Hovewer, female elves are known for their absolute Nymphish bodies and V doesn't look very attractive to me. Just look at Lirian for an example of female elf, there's no ambiguity there.

Another obvious example : Female elf drawing (http://images.elfwood.com/art/t/u/tull/elve_red.jpg)

V's male and has a crush on Haley. Enough said.

Roderick_BR

2008-07-25, 10:00 AM

Vaarsuvius's gender is elf.

It had to be said :smallbiggrin:

DreadSpoon

2008-07-25, 10:40 AM

Male elves in D&D and many other fantasy universe always look effeminate because of their frail constitution. Hovewer, female elves are known for their absolute Nymphish bodies and V doesn't look very attractive to me. Just look at Lirian for an example of female elf, there's no ambiguity there.

"Always" nothing. It's up to the specific setting to determine what elves look like. The male elf in the 4e player's handbook looks like Joe Perry (of Aerosmith), and certainly not effeminate. The Mialee elf character in 3e also was anything other than "nymphish."

Some settings allow elves to have facial hair, some do not. Some have elves as tall, some as short. Some allow big, burly, Conan-esque elves while others have only Orlando Bloom impersonators. And so on.

We already know that the OOTS verse does not use the stock D&D races as-is; look at the height of goblins, for example. Or how half elves have a single pointed ear instead of having two slightly pointed ears. Or how everyone speaks Common instead of racial languages (in most cases).

Duema

2008-07-25, 11:40 AM

I have to say male, because in OOTS female characters have their eyes drawn lower then males, and V has the male-looking eyes.

Kool-Aid

2008-07-25, 02:47 PM

Hovewer, female elves are known for their absolute Nymphish bodies and V doesn't look very attractive to me.

Yes, female elves usually are attractive but you have to remember that V has a low charisma score (proof http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) and charisma is the score that makes someone physically attractive. I personally do think V is a male however, before I knew he was ambiguous I always though V was a man.

cliffiepizza

2008-07-25, 09:33 PM

i usually think of V as a male for some reason

Kish

2008-07-25, 10:09 PM

I have to say male, because in OOTS female characters have their eyes drawn lower then males, and V has the male-looking eyes.
S/he doesn't. S/he has eyes between where they usually are on a female and where they usually are on a male.

Funny, that. It's almost as if the author meant his/her gender to be ambiguous.

bentheiii

2008-07-26, 01:18 AM

i keep reffering to her as female and don't know why (i guess the long-ish heir, that belker fell in love with it, and that she always shares rooms with other women at inns)

dps

2008-07-26, 07:20 AM

I figure V is female, simply because the other characters seem to treat her as a her, to the extent that we can tell (rooms with female characters, Sabine called her "sister", etc.).

Decoy Lockbox

2008-07-26, 01:03 PM

I usually assume V is male, because:

His know-it-all-ism and desire to blow things up seem stereotypically masculine to me. (one-upmanship and...well a desire to see things blowing up are pretty common amongst guys obviously).

His name also sounds rather masculine to me. I guess I just connect vaguely Latinate names that end with "-o" and "-us" with guys. If the name was Varsuvia, I would reconsider.

Decoy Lockbox

2008-07-26, 01:14 PM

Yes, female elves usually are attractive but you have to remember that V has a low charisma score (proof http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) and charisma is the score that makes someone physically attractive. I personally do think V is a male however, before I knew he was ambiguous I always though V was a man.

This is absolutely wrong, and a common mistake that many players make. Charisma is force of will/personality and personal magnetism. In the older editions of D&D, there was an optional stat called "comeliness" that actually determined physical attractiveness.

Imagine a very attractive character who doesn't really talk much, sticks to themselves, etc. This is a person with a low charisma.

A good example of high charisma without looking like an Adonis: Lemmy from Motorhead.

Kish

2008-07-26, 01:23 PM

A good example of high charisma without looking like an Adonis: Lemmy from Motorhead.
An even better one for the circumstances: Xykon.

Kool-Aid

2008-07-26, 02:36 PM

This is absolutely wrong, and a common mistake that many players make. Charisma is force of will/personality and personal magnetism. In the older editions of D&D, there was an optional stat called "comeliness" that actually determined physical attractiveness.

Imagine a very attractive character who doesn't really talk much, sticks to themselves, etc. This is a person with a low charisma.

A good example of high charisma without looking like an Adonis: Lemmy from Motorhead.

In my 3.5 player's handbook it says that Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personel magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

BRC

2008-07-26, 02:42 PM

In my 3.5 player's handbook it says that Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personel magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.
Remember, with multiple sentient species running around, physical attractiveness becomes harder and harder to judge. A human might find somebody physically attractive, but a Dwarf would have a different standard of beauty, as would an elf, a gnome, a halfling, an orc, a bugbear, a troll, an ogre, an illithid ect. So how can you say somebody is physically attractive with so many different ideas of what exactly that means in the world.

Kool-Aid

2008-07-26, 05:05 PM

Remember, with multiple sentient species running around, physical attractiveness becomes harder and harder to judge. A human might find somebody physically attractive, but a Dwarf would have a different standard of beauty, as would an elf, a gnome, a halfling, an orc, a bugbear, a troll, an ogre, an illithid ect. So how can you say somebody is physically attractive with so many different ideas of what exactly that means in the world.

Remember, with multiple sentient species running around, physical attractiveness becomes harder and harder to judge. A human might find somebody physically attractive, but a Dwarf would have a different standard of beauty, as would an elf, a gnome, a halfling, an orc, a bugbear, a troll, an ogre, an illithid ect. So how can you say somebody is physically attractive with so many different ideas of what exactly that means in the world.

While that IS of course true I don't think that many people would find not being able to tell what gender someone is attractive, if I was going to marry a woman I'd at least like to be sure that she IS a woman. I also believe that physical attractiveness does differ with race, but if a human saw an elf with a high charisma score and an ogre with a high charisma score, he would go for the elf.

Since elves and humans look very much alike I don't think it makes much differance.

Stormpax

2008-07-27, 04:24 AM

I vote that he's whatever gender the plot demands him to be.

Ironwolf172

2008-07-27, 06:24 AM

Alright I started this thread because I want to see what people think. I don't want to see people saying "this has been done before" because that gets us nowhere.

I think V is female. She "camps" with Haley as some of you have already said and V seems to understand what is going on in Haley's head. Also V seems to know a lot about relationships (more than a guy would know). V was the only one (that was plainly shown) to have caught onto Haley liking Elan. Most guys just say girls are wierd and never really clue in on anything.

Ironwolf172

2008-07-27, 06:36 PM

S/he doesn't. S/he has eyes between where they usually are on a female and where they usually are on a male.

Funny, that. It's almost as if the author meant his/her gender to be ambiguous.

That's exactly what the author meant.

Pie Guy

2008-07-27, 10:00 PM

[stupid joke]V'S AN ANDROID!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE! [/stupid joke]
anyway, I think V's a girl.

ericgrau

2008-07-28, 06:58 PM

Well there are many implications of people thinking Vaarsuvius is a woman in the comic, more than implications that it is a man.

It's so simple. All I have to do is divine it from what I know of Rich: is he the sort of man who would make the Androgenous elf follow the comments of those around it or not? Now, a clever man would then make Vaarsuvius a woman because he knows only a great fool would blindly follow the implications of most of the comic's characters. But I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not believe that Vaarsuvius is a man. But Rich must have known that his readers are not great fools, so I can cleary not believe that Vaarsuvius is a woman.

So have I made my decision? Not remotely! Because most elves come from woodland clans numbering less than two hundred souls. As everyone knows, they hide their villages in the trees. And those that hide are used to having people not trust them as we do not trust Rich, and he knows this. So I can clearly not believe that Vaarsuvius is a man.

Now wait 'til I get going! Rich must have suspected that his readers would have known Vaarsuvius's origin, so I can clearly not believe that Vaarsuvius is a woman!

Rich calls himself the Giant, which means he must be strong... so he could have made Vaarsuvius a man, believing that only then would Vaarsuvius depend on strength to save him, so I can clearly not believe that Vaarsuvius is a woman. But he also writes a nerdy parody comic, which means he must have studied and in studying he must have learned that man is mortal, so he would have made Vaarsuvius as far from a man as possible, so I can clearly not believe that Vaarsuvius is a man.

Aha! Rich has given everything away! I know what Vaarsuvius's gender is! I choose...
(points at something far away)
What in the world can that be?

Kaytara

2008-07-28, 08:15 PM

It's so simple. (snip)

I'll... eh, let someone wiser than I respond to that. ^^; (I wonder if there's such a thing as 'over-circular-thinking'?)

I never had a problem viewing Vaarsuvius as genderless. IMO those arguments about feminine/masculine personality are quite worthless because in the society of elves, gender plays a far, far less important role than it does for humans. Elf males and females are far more similar in both role, behaviour and physique than human males and females are, so an elf's gender should have very little influence on the kind of life one leads. They live longer, so 'getting it on' is much less of a priority, to the point where an elf's gender is barely part of their identity anymore. As V says, "unnecessary".

So, as I said, I've never had any problems dealing with V's genderlessness. If a quality does not matter for the character, why should it matter to me? It's like eye colour. I won't spend any sleepless nights trying to guess if Haley has blue or green or possibly grey eyes, simply because it's not part of her character and has no repercussions on who she is.

Were I forced to choose, I'd say V is male because the torso we see in Return of the Elf is a decidedly male one, but as I said... I honestly can't convince myself that it V is male and therefore I think any different of him, because that would imply that it matters, which it doesn't, since gender isn't an issue for elves.

ericgrau

2008-07-28, 09:00 PM

I'll... eh, let someone wiser than I respond to that. ^^; (I wonder if there's such a thing as 'over-circular-thinking'?)

Truly I have a dizzying intellect :smallbiggrin:.

EDIT: Oh yeah, props to whoever gets the reference.

Kool-Aid

2008-07-29, 12:54 AM

Truly I have a dizzying intellect :smallbiggrin:.

EDIT: Oh yeah, props to whoever gets the reference.

I'm going to have to go with "The Princess Bride", also what I forgot to post is that I could just never picture Vaarsuvius with a woman's voice, in my head it always comes out a bit more masculine.

ericgrau

2008-07-29, 02:53 PM

Ah good, I was worried no one would get it and I'd just look strange for posting that long blurb. Well, I might still look strange but, er... I mean only strange.

Originally I was just gonna post "Well, most people seem to think V's a woman so I bet V's a man just to pull a fast one." Then I said, "Or maybe that's what Rich wants us to think!" And I realized I was falling into the Princess Bride fallacy.

Bayar

2008-07-29, 03:03 PM

V is actually not an elf but a changelng disguised as an elf, just that this particular changeling cant decide what gender s/he should be.

Alternate possibility: V is a warforged using disguise checks and alter self to appear to be an elf. And since warforged dont have actual genders, V doesnt have one in elf form. Simple as that :biggrin:

EvilElitest

2008-07-29, 03:08 PM

T-O-E

2008-07-29, 03:32 PM

That's exactly what the author meant.

Cast detect sarcasm on any and all posts.

I figure V is female, simply because the other characters seem to treat her as a her, to the extent that we can tell (rooms with female characters, Sabine called her "sister", etc.).

Sabine also refers to V as "he".

Spiky

2008-07-29, 05:54 PM

you are amazing
from
EE

Also from TPB, 2 fights earlier.

Warren Dew

2008-07-29, 07:58 PM

I have to say male, because in OOTS female characters have their eyes drawn lower then males, and V has the male-looking eyes.

This, plus the squarer clothing cutoff, is what convinces me that Vaarsuvius was initially intended to be male. In response to another poster, the eye position is not intermediate, it just looks that way because Vaarsuvius has more hair than the other males in the party, even Elan.

However, Rich may have since changed his mind on this, as he has on many other things.

EndlessWrath

2008-07-30, 06:38 PM

V camps with Hailey... yes... That doesn't mean s/he's a woman. He obviously isn't one of the perverse guys of the crew, so I would figure she feels more comfortable having him in the room since she doesn't want to have to pay for an extra room, or just wants somebody to chill with. Gay guys tend to have the same effect on women, because they know they can lower their defenses. I'm not saying He's gay, but he seems happily married to his spouse.

I think s/he's a he. It just comes to me that s/he's a he. Or perhaps Elves in this universe are hermaphrodites? or perhaps Elven guys just look the in between of Female/male. who knows. I think this is a topic that will continue for a long time...as I doubt this is the most important thing on the Giant's mind, besides.. I figure he'll milk this for as long as its worth. Its quite humorous seeing Belkar, Roy, and Durkon debate over this ^.^

Blue Ghost

2008-08-02, 08:01 PM

Since I started reading this strip, I always thought of V as female. Partially because I didn't visit these forums, and maybe because I'm just stupid, I never even realized that she was supposed to be androgynous until Roy directly called her that, very late in the comic. Yes, I noticed that the librarian in Azure City referred to her as "sir," but I assumed that he was just weird like that.

brennanatorx45

2008-08-04, 12:34 AM

I think of V as a girl I didn't even know the gender was ambiguas untill very late into the story arc. Plus V staying in the same room as Haley is a give-away.

Blue Ghost

2008-08-04, 12:24 PM

I think of V as a girl I didn't even know the gender was ambiguas untill very late into the story arc. Plus V staying in the same room as Haley is a give-away.

That's what I just said! Well, not the "same room as Haley" part, but I was thinking that!

Mina Kobold

2008-08-04, 02:14 PM

This is absolutely wrong, and a common mistake that many players make. Charisma is force of will/personality and personal magnetism. In the older editions of D&D, there was an optional stat called "comeliness" that actually determined physical attractivenes.

I have played first edition for years before the DM got 3.5 edition and i have never heard about "comeliness" :smallyuk: . charisma is personality yes but 1. that can affect atractiviness and this could be Richs way of showing it. 2. Rich could be using the old (apperance) and the new (personality) version of charisma.