PDA

View Full Version : 4e: Divine Miracle is not broken



wodan46
2008-07-22, 12:47 PM
By the time you have gone through 4 encounter powers, a daily power, a item power, and a utility power, the enemy encounter is pretty much done with, and at this point you are just going to be mopping up whats left. In short, Divine Miracle doesn't really give you that many free encounter power uses. In comparison, Archmage gives you a daily as an encounter, one that you might sustain for the whole encounter given that you are probably Arcane, and Epic Trickster has his own powerful abilities. Eternal Seeker is kind of wimpy though, I admit.

The only real limit that I propose should be placed on Miracle is that it can trigger only once per turn. This prevents you from abusing encounter powers that use move/minor/immediate actions.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-07-22, 12:54 PM
Sorry, this just isn't the case. Someone can expend all but one encounter power outside of combat and not recover them. Someone can also (with an action point) blow through 3 encounter powers in 2 rounds, and then spam away with their strongest (and/or stunning) one for the rest of the combat.

Divine Miracle is far too strong.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-22, 12:56 PM
Wow, you just keep pumping out these missconceptions dont you. :smallwink:

I don't think that it would normally be broken, but you could build a character who makes it broken. For example, a character whose only encounter powers are immediate and free actions except for 1 really good AoE stun power which after 2 rounds of battle you can now spam freely.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 12:59 PM
I stated clearly that the 1 thing that should be changed about Divine Miracle is that it should be usable once per round, no more.

Divine Miracle is no more broken than the other 2 level 30 epic destiny features.

For example, Archmage has infinite heals, while Epic Trickster just has break the games mathematical backbone.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-22, 01:08 PM
Actually, now that I think about it and looked through the book, I can't find any sort of AoE stun that is encounter. All of them are daily powers, so now I am a little apprehensive to call this OP. I mean, sure. You can ATTEMPT to stun-lock a creature, but how often do you really hit. 15 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (attribute) + 3 (proficiency) +6 (item) is a +31. A level 28 Efreet has an AC of 44. So you would need a 13 or better. Orcus has a 48 AC, thus a 17 or better.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 01:15 PM
Stunlocking is possible, but won't help much in larger encounters. Bosses are specifically resistant to most stun locks.

Archmage can take Seal of Binding and have a stunlock per encounter trick as well, to say nothing of Epic Tricksters doing stunlocks.

If I were Archmage I would take Destructive Salutation, which auto stuns enemies and autokills minions in a large area, and doesn't hurt allies.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-07-22, 01:15 PM
Actually, now that I think about it and looked through the book, I can't find any sort of AoE stun that is encounter. All of them are daily powers, so now I am a little apprehensive to call this OP. I mean, sure. You can ATTEMPT to stun-lock a creature, but how often do you really hit. 15 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (attribute) + 3 (proficiency) +6 (item) is a +31. A level 28 Efreet has an AC of 44. So you would need a 13 or better. Orcus has a 48 AC, thus a 17 or better.

You start with an 18, and get +8 from levelling, +10 if you're a demigod, for a total +8 or 9 from your attribute.

You're forgetting Combat Advantage, debuff powers (Armor Splinter, Thorns of Venom, etc), and the big boosts that come from Leaders, spent action points (with some paragon-path abilities), etc.


Divine Miracle remains far too good, and far better than the other options. Being able to hammer away with, say, Thunderclap or Anvil of Doom or etc. is way, way, too good.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 01:22 PM
I don't see how Demigod is any better than stunlocking than Archmage or Trickster. There are several dailies well suited to stunlocking that the Archmage can drop every encounter, while Epic Trickster can warp the dice to give him nice long stuns.

I mention again that by the time you run out of non at-wills the encounter should be pretty much smushed.

Not to mention stunlocks don't work nearly as well against encounters with many enemies, which represents most encounters. So you can 1 shot Orcus every once and the while, but only if none of his buddies are around. Yippee.

Dausuul
2008-07-22, 02:30 PM
Not to mention stunlocks don't work nearly as well against encounters with many enemies, which represents most encounters. So you can 1 shot Orcus every once and the while, but only if none of his buddies are around. Yippee.

Problem is, the final fight of a campaign is very likely to be against a powerful solo monster. Do you really want the Ultimate Battle concluding a 30-level campaign to end with somebody stunlocking the Big Bad on the first round?

It's not a problem that's apt to come up very often, true, but when it does come up it's kind of important.

Crow
2008-07-22, 02:48 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how Archmage and Deadly Trickster are so good at stunning people for every round...But whatever.

The bottomline is that Divine Miracle has no upper limit. Just wait until more splatbooks come out...it will get worse. Even if you are running a combat versus a solo and his buddies, being able to completely take a solo out of the fight with nothing he can do about it is very powerful.

You don't seem to be understanding. Stunning a monster for a round or two every encounter is OK. Stunning a monster every encounter, every round, is not. You are basically saying that if a monster had the ability to do this and your character was brutalized in this way, you would be just fine with it. "That ability isn't overpowered at all. He should be ableto do that because he's a lvl 30 monster."

wodan46
2008-07-22, 03:31 PM
Archmage uses Legion's Hold or another megastun every combat, using Wand or Orb implement powers to further boost effectiveness.

Deadly Trickster just Orbs people to death, using his rerolls and other tricks to jam stuns down enemy throats.

Really, the most abusable things currently are the Orb Feature, Seal of Binding, and the entire Warlord class (+9 to attacks against a target for the entire party for the entire encounter? I'm sure that's balanced).

Dropping a stun every round on a Solo is hard unless you can gain major attack bonuses, like from the warlord, or can sustain it for a long time, through Orb or Seal of Binding.

So Divine Miracle is broken only if another even more broken effect is deployed in concert with it, when fighting against a level 30 solo with no backup.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 03:33 PM
I think Eternal Seeker has the potential to be pretty cool if you pick the right powers, but I'm not sure.

Crow
2008-07-22, 03:40 PM
Archmage uses Legion's Hold or another megastun every combat, using Wand or Orb implement powers to further boost effectiveness.

Deadly Trickster just Orbs people to death, using his rerolls and other tricks to jam stuns down enemy throats.

Really, the most abusable things currently are the Orb Feature, Seal of Binding, and the entire Warlord class (+9 to attacks against a target for the entire party for the entire encounter? I'm sure that's balanced).

Dropping a stun every round on a Solo is hard unless you can gain major attack bonuses, like from the warlord, or can sustain it for a long time, through Orb or Seal of Binding.

Those options are not as bulletproof as the Divine Miracle method. All we have to do is remember Blade Cascade to see that it's definitly possible to make every attack hit.

Legion's hold can only be dropped once during the encounter, and relies upon using orbs to make the saves hard to get. The worst orb tricks can't be used in an unlimited manner. Wizards have encounter stun powers available that will stun more effectively if he goes demigod, and will be unlimited.

Deadly Tricker has an upper limit to his ability to make rerolls. A limitation that demigod doesn't share with Divine Miracle.

I don't know what you lose by admitting that Divine Miracle is overpowered. Do you have some personal investment in the system? The game is fun, and I enjoyed playing it. But it has a few flaws. They're not as bad as other games, but that doesn't mean there is no reason to try and fix them.


I think Eternal Seeker has the potential to be pretty cool if you pick the right powers, but I'm not sure.

I really like the flavor of that destiny. I really wish is was more useful though. To really take advantage of it, you end up suffering terrible MAD, which is a shame. I don't want my guy to become one with the magic of the world, or become a god...For whatever reason those just aren't desires I (and usually my characters) have (They sound to me like some sort of power fantasies). Eternal Seeker is just awesome though. Like the forever wanderer.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 03:47 PM
Odd that you mention Blade Cascade, as that specifically was made possible by the Deadly Trickster, not the Demigod.

My point is that Divine Miracle is powerful, but so are the other tricks.

Though let me note that while Divine Miracle will be better against Solos, who explicitly take longer to finish than most enemies and thus will be still ticking after non Demi-gods run out of encounter powers, the Archmage trick will be better against a full day's worth of 5 encounters, featuring a wide mixture of enemies.

Crow
2008-07-22, 03:53 PM
Odd that you mention Blade Cascade, as that specifically was made possible by the Deadly Trickster, not the Demigod.

Deadly Trickster was for re-rolling 1's. Legion's hold is quite nice, but Icy Tomb (or whatever it's called), and Thunderclap look to be the options for Demigod. I'd rather have those an unlimited number of times rather than Legion's hold once per encounter (which is still nice!)

wodan46
2008-07-22, 05:23 PM
How about an infinite array of Mordenkainen's Mansions? Or continuous Mass Fly? Or Time Stop every encounter?