PDA

View Full Version : 4e: Some fixes for common broken things



wodan46
2008-07-22, 04:49 PM
1. Orb, Wand, and Staff implements all give a flat +4 bonus for their effects if Wis/Dex/Con is your highest or second highest ability score, otherwise a +2.
2. The same is true for any powers that powers that boost AC or Attack by an amount equal to an Ability Modifier.
3. Divine Miracle works on encounter powers of Level 17 or lower only, and may be used only once per round.
4. Seal of Binding can be sustained for up to 4 rounds.
5. You may make no more than 5 separate attacks in a single standard action that involves using offhand melee attacks.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-22, 04:51 PM
5. You may make no more than 5 separate attacks in a single standard action that involves using offhand melee attacks.

Blade Cascade has already been fixed in an errata. It involved exactly this - it can deal only 5 attacks at most.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 04:56 PM
I'm not referring to Blade Cascade. I'm referring to Two Weapon Flurry, which has similar exploits.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-22, 05:02 PM
I'm not referring to Blade Cascade. I'm referring to Two Weapon Flurry, which has similar exploits.

Explain how do they work?

wodan46
2008-07-22, 05:08 PM
Two Weapon Flurry + Heavy Blade Opportunist + Twin Strike

Tengu_temp
2008-07-22, 05:11 PM
That's four attacks (and two of them at -5). How does that houserule change anything with it?

wodan46
2008-07-22, 05:12 PM
Whenever you make an opportunity attack with your primary that hits, you may make and opportunity attack with your off-hand. For the off-hand opportunity attack, use Twin Strike, which grants you an attack with your primary again.

Stack attack bonuses by being or having a Warlord in the party, and be a Deadly Trickster in order to give you rerolls.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-22, 05:15 PM
Sorry, but that's just being a RAWtard - completely disregarding the intent of how an ability should work in favour of interpreting it literally. Pull something like that in the presence of a sane DM and he will shove a D4 up your nose, and declare that you're simply doing 4 (2* Dual Strike) attacks instead.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 05:31 PM
I suppose that is true. But still, there will be RAWtards wandering around insisting that they should be allowed to do it.

Dausuul
2008-07-22, 05:42 PM
Whenever you make an opportunity attack with your primary that hits, you may make and opportunity attack with your off-hand. For the off-hand opportunity attack, use Twin Strike, which grants you an attack with your primary again.

Stack attack bonuses by being or having a Warlord in the party, and be a Deadly Trickster in order to give you rerolls.

Doesn't work. OAs are basic attacks. You can't use Twin Strike.

ericgrau
2008-07-22, 05:47 PM
Wait, so in 4e you take a feat to do exactly what they fixed out of 3.5e?

I assume this is a daily, to keep from bogging down the game?

erikun
2008-07-22, 05:47 PM
If someone is being a RAWtard, I highly doubt they are going to be pointing this thread out to their DM, though. :smalltongue: Anyways...


1. Orb, Wand, and Staff implements all give a flat +4 bonus for their effects if Wis/Dex/Con is your highest or second highest ability score, otherwise a +2.
Why nerf my staff? :smallfrown: If you are that desperate to nerf Orb wizards, just say that the orb bonus "degrades" by 1-3 points (depending on tier) after each failed savings throw. Or say that damage awakens a monster affected by Sleep.


2. The same is true for any powers that powers that boost AC or Attack by an amount equal to an Ability Modifier.
I didn't realize that this was a major problem. So my Warlord focusing of STR/INT would just be wasting his time? :smallfrown:


3. Divine Miracle works on encounter powers of Level 17 or lower only, and may be used only once per round.
Well, that seems to stomp its usefulness quite a bit. I mean, how often do you actually manage to land Confusion onto Orcus, anyways?


4. Seal of Binding can be sustained for up to 4 rounds.
If you're that desperate to break Seal of Binding, why not just allow a savings throw (without the +5) for Solos only?


5. You may make no more than 5 separate attacks in a single standard action that involves using offhand melee attacks.
Meh, that feels like a needless restriction. "Oh, I've already attacked 5 times! I should stop now." Besides, it could unintentionally run into problems with future powers that intentionally use more than 5 attacks.

And what, nothing about Cloud Chariot?

Seriously, I don't see anything here that I couldn't just houserule myself. Perhaps others will find some use here, though.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 06:30 PM
Doesn't work. OAs are basic attacks. You can't use Twin Strike.

Heavy Blade Opportunist lets you use At-Will for OAs, meaning that you can use Twin Strike as an OA.

The developers seem not to understand that having things like Attack Bonuses, AC, and penalties to Saving throws increase when your ability modifier does is unbalanced, since they are all worth just as much at level 30 as they are at level 1.

I think the staff is plenty good by the way. Orb and Wand may allow for sick comboes, but Staff will block most attacks, and do so AFTER finding out how much damage it does. That Dragon critted you for 80 damage? NO IT DIDN'T.

I'd be more concerned with Divine Miracle landing Thunderclap, or Warlord's Doom, or many other powers that become ridiculous if you cast them as At-Wills.

Antacid
2008-07-22, 06:42 PM
Why nerf my staff? :smallfrown: If you are that desperate to nerf Orb wizards, just say that the orb bonus "degrades" by 1-3 points (depending on tier) after each failed savings throw. Or say that damage awakens a monster affected by Sleep.

It already does. Nothing says sleep from the spell is anything other than normal sleep. Waking from it works according to the rules on PHB 263.


If you're that desperate to break Seal of Binding, why not just allow a savings throw (without the +5) for Solos only?

Or you could just say regeneration powers don't work while Seal of Binding is active, which would eliminate the combo while allowing both powers to function as intended (SoB is pretty obviously intended to let the PC do ~half his HP in damage to a single opponent while stunning them for several turns - but that just corresponds to around 80 points of damage).


Heavy Blade Opportunist lets you use At-Will for OAs, meaning that you can use Twin Strike as an OA.

So the DM has to avoid triggering OA's around your ranger. He shouldn't be doing that anyway. What's the problem?


The developers seem not to understand that having things like Attack Bonuses, AC, and penalties to Saving throws increase when your ability modifier does is unbalanced, since they are all worth just as much at level 30 as they are at level 1.

Monster defences are already balanced to take increased ability scores into account. Unless you're running a High-stat campaign (which is specifically discouraged by RAW) maxing rarely gets you more than a +2 to hit.


I'd be more concerned with Divine Miracle landing Thunderclap, or Warlord's Doom, or many other powers that become ridiculous if you cast them as At-Wills.

:smallsigh: Divine miracle isn't available 30th level. Do you realise how unbalanced 3.5e was at 30th level?

Yakk
2008-07-22, 07:08 PM
Seal of Binding: The target gets a save. For each save that succeeds, the damage the player gets is increased by +10, but the power does not end.

Solo Lockdown Issues: Solos get a +5 to their saves, and a cumulative +5 bonus against each power for each failed save against that power.


3. Divine Miracle works on encounter powers of Level 17 or lower only, and may be used only once per round.
Divine Miracle refreshes a random encounter attack power.

Two-Weapon Flurry: Change to "..., you can also make an single attack with your offhand weapon against the same target as a free action (but with a -5 penalty to your attack roll)."

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-22, 07:09 PM
:smallsigh: Divine miracle isn't available until 30th level. Do you realise how unbalanced 3.5e was at 30th level?

two wrongs doesn't make right.



Blade Cascade has already been fixed in an errata. It involved exactly this - it can deal only 5 attacks at most.
Don't you realise what this means? Wodan is giving us WoTC quality fixes:smallwink:.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 07:19 PM
Monster defences are already balanced to take increased ability scores into account. Unless you're running a High-stat campaign (which is specifically discouraged by RAW) maxing rarely gets you more than a +2 to hit.


When you factor in non-power bonuses (ability modifier, item enhancement, level bonus), they are. When you factor in power bonuses, they are most certainly not.

Take Lead the Charge. Land it on an Elite/Solo and you go from hitting an enemy 50-70% of the time to hitting them 90-95% of the time.

Grommen
2008-07-22, 07:30 PM
Whow what are we six weeks from release date and 4th ed already needs house rules and we can't agree at all as to what they should be.

I'm soooo glad they "Fixed" D&D. :smallbiggrin:

O well. Good news is that they have not nurfed the DM.

Dausuul
2008-07-22, 07:37 PM
Heavy Blade Opportunist lets you use At-Will for OAs, meaning that you can use Twin Strike as an OA.

Ah, that was the part I was missing. It's Heavy Blade Opportunity, not Opportunist. (It's actually an important distinction, since there is another feat called Blade Opportunist, which was what I thought you were talking about... who the heck names these things?)

Rachel Lorelei
2008-07-22, 07:37 PM
Whow what are we six weeks from release date and 4th ed already needs house rules and we can't agree at all as to what they should be.

I'm soooo glad they "Fixed" D&D. :smallbiggrin:

O well. Good news is that they have not nurfed the DM.

Would you like a comparison between the scant handful of issues presented here, and the enormous, gaping issues in the 3.5 core books? Because I assure you, they did indeed "fix" D&D. This is a remarkably small number of problems for any rules-heavy RPG.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 07:38 PM
Frankly, this more or less summarizes everything I could see that needs fixing, and none of them are problems until you hit EPIC LEVEL.

The only issues that I see as problems are powers that give increasingly large bonuses to attacks/AC/saving throws (Orb, Tactical Warlord), and the few mechanisms that generate unlimited attacks or unbreakable defenses (Flurry, Chariot).

In comparison, 3.5e is utterly broken from Level 1 onwards, and that's just Core.

Antacid
2008-07-22, 07:47 PM
When you factor in non-power bonuses (ability modifier, item enhancement, level bonus), they are. When you factor in power bonuses, they are most certainly not.

Take Lead the Charge. Land it on an Elite/Solo and you go from hitting an enemy 50-70% of the time to hitting them 90-95% of the time.
It's not as good as you think. Only players within 5 squares of the warlord get the bonus. That basically means any party member who wants it has to be within reach of a typical Epic Solo's deeply scary AOE/aura/territory control effects, all of which are specifically intended to counter a party who tries to surround them. As most are Huge or Larger and have Reach 4 and around 1000 HP, that likely means being within melee range for a long time.

Go read some of the Epic Solo powers. Having having 3 or 4 members of the party beat on one Solo when they have combos like Orcus' The Dead Rise/Aura of Death/Touch of Death, or a Gibbering Orb's Eye Rays (aura 5, auto-attack everything in range at the start of their turn), or an Ancient Dragon's Breath Weapon (close blast 5) and territory control powers, is an extremely good way for someone to get killed regardless of whether a couple more of the party is able to hit almost every round. That's assuming the DM lets the party all whale on a Solo from within 5 squares of the Warlord, instead of taking advantage of flight, teleportation, and threatening reach to screw up your formation or force AoO.

In short: if you use Lead the Attack on a Solo at Epic level, it works, but in a way that forces the party to play to the Solo's strengths.

Oh, and it's a Daily. So the DM can just make your party fight more encounters v.s. Solos to force the Warlord to choose which one to use the power on.




:smallsigh: Divine miracle isn't available 30th level. Do you realise how unbalanced 3.5e was at 30th level?
two wrongs doesn't make right.
The funny thing is, another common complaint against 4e Epic play is it seems like it would be too similar to play at lower levels.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-07-22, 08:09 PM
Lead the Attack isn't the only thing giving bonuses that big. The Battle Captain path gives it to anyone you use Healing word on for a round. Thunderous Fury (level 17 encounter power) gives it to all allies for a round. Sudden Assault (level 23 encounter power) grants it to one ally. Stir the Hornet's Nest (level 29 daily) applies it to all ranged attacks. Basically, the Warlord can grant +6 to +8 to hit, at higher levels, fairly consistently.


There's also the fact that Lead the Attack is level 1, when the "1+INT to AB for the rest of the encounter" ability makes it so good it's one of the best powers.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 08:16 PM
Don't forget the awesomeness that Tactical Presence is. At high levels, +4 to every attack you spend an action point on for the entire party? YAY.

Under my interpretation, Tactical Presence will always give a flat +2 bonus, which is handy but not game breaking.

Antacid
2008-07-22, 08:16 PM
Lead the Attack isn't the only thing giving bonuses that big. The Battle Captain path gives it to anyone you use Healing word on for a round. Thunderous Fury (level 17 encounter power) gives it to all allies for a round. Sudden Assault (level 23 encounter power) grants it to one ally. Stir the Hornet's Nest (level 29 daily) applies it to all ranged attacks. Basically, the Warlord can grant +6 to +8 to hit, at higher levels, fairly consistently.

Well, that's the whole point of playing a Warlord, especially with Inspiring Presence. It's essentially the class feature: provide leadership represented by a power bonus or a HP bonus.


Don't forget the awesomeness that Tactical Presence is. At high levels, +4 to every attack you spend an action point on for the entire party? YAY.
No, a party member who spends an action point gets the bonus if they can see the Warlord. It's not when the Warlord spends an action point. No one can spend more than one Action point per encounter, so you can't get the bonus more than once per encounter, either.

wodan46
2008-07-22, 08:27 PM
Your point? You don't seem to be disagreeing with what I said. Whenever a party member spends an action point, they get +4 to attack. The odds of this not occurring is minimal.

Antacid
2008-07-22, 08:30 PM
Your point? You don't seem to be disagreeing with what I said. Whenever a party member spends an action point, they get +4 to attack. The odds of this not occurring is minimal.

My point is that it's not unbalanced. It's no more awesome than a Ranger's ability to add 3d8 damage to one attack per round with Hunter's Quarry at Epic level by getting a feat to increase his damage die to d8s.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-07-22, 08:36 PM
Well, that's the whole point of playing a Warlord, especially with Inspiring Presence. It's essentially the class feature: provide leadership represented by a power bonuses.

It is, sure. But the power bonuses are so big they let people pretty much always hit. Giving everyone +8 to hit for the rest of the encounter is ridiculous, by 4E standards. And the kinds of bonuses the Tactical Warlord/Battle Captain hands out are ridiculous compared to the other leaders (Inspiring warlords, and STR and WIS clerics)

Holocron Coder
2008-07-22, 08:41 PM
Whenever you make an opportunity attack with your primary that hits, you may make and opportunity attack with your off-hand. For the off-hand opportunity attack, use Twin Strike, which grants you an attack with your primary again.

I still only see a max of 4 attacks. You can make an OA with your main hand and an OA with your offhand. Each of those can be a twin strike. However, the attacks yielded by twin strike are NOT OAs and are just basic attacks, thus they are not applicable to Heavy Blade Opportunist.

Thus, 4 attacks, not *inf*

Rachel Lorelei
2008-07-22, 08:46 PM
I still only see a max of 4 attacks. You can make an OA with your main hand and an OA with your offhand. Each of those can be a twin strike. However, the attacks yielded by twin strike are NOT OAs and are just basic attacks, thus they are not applicable to Heavy Blade Opportunist.

Thus, 4 attacks, not *inf*

It's still awesome when combined with, say, Scimitar Dance (especially if you're a Stormwarden who already dealt the enemy your DEX in damage once or twice just for being adjacent to you), but that's the kind of thing you should be doing in Epic.

Crow
2008-07-22, 08:48 PM
Just to reiterate: Comparing broken aspects of 4e to broken aspects of 3.5e does not make 4e's broken aspects any less of an issue. Furthermore, this is a discussion about how to fix 4e's (admittedly few) glaring flaws. There is really no need whatsoever to bring up 3.5 at all, other than to be a troll.

Holocron Coder
2008-07-22, 08:50 PM
It's still awesome when combined with, say, Scimitar Dance (especially if you're a Stormwarden who already dealt the enemy your DEX in damage once or twice just for being adjacent to you), but that's the kind of thing you should be doing in Epic.

I concur. The earliest that combo is available is Paragon tier, and I don't mind 4 attacks during OA for a specified combo. Most avoid OA as-is.

Crow
2008-07-22, 08:53 PM
I still only see a max of 4 attacks. You can make an OA with your main hand and an OA with your offhand. Each of those can be a twin strike. However, the attacks yielded by twin strike are NOT OAs and are just basic attacks, thus they are not applicable to Heavy Blade Opportunist.

Thus, 4 attacks, not *inf*

One opportunity attack per enemy, per round, pretty much squashes that one. But that is general, and specific trumps general (exception-based rulesets will ALWAYS have problems like this unless gone over with a fine-toothed comb. But that's another conversation.), and I don't have my books with me to see how specific the wording of the feat is.

Holocron Coder
2008-07-22, 11:15 PM
One opportunity attack per enemy, per round, pretty much squashes that one. But that is general, and specific trumps general (exception-based rulesets will ALWAYS have problems like this unless gone over with a fine-toothed comb. But that's another conversation.), and I don't have my books with me to see how specific the wording of the feat is.

You can use the compendium online. And I did check them; Heavy Blade Opportunist allows you to use an at-will ability when making an OA. Two Weapon Flurry allows you to make an additional OA with your off-hand when you make an OA with your main hand (OH OA at a -5). Then, twin strike allows you to make a second attack with your opposite hand for an attack by the other hand. This gives you two OA, one for each hand (via TWF), which can then be Twin Strikes (via HBO), but it ends there; to do the 'infinite' attacks, Twin Strikes would have to grant OA, which it doesn't.

I double checked the feats and abilities involved :) 4 is the max.

Hatu
2008-07-22, 11:16 PM
Two Weapon Flurry + Heavy Blade Opportunist + Twin Strike

Two Weapon Flurry is pretty poorly worded, but I'm not sure that would work even by strict RAW. Two Weapon Flurry says you can make a bonus OA with your off-hand weapon, but Twin Strike can't be made with an off-hand weapon: it requires it be made with both on- and off-hand weapons simultaneously. The two might well be incompatible.

-H

Hatu
2008-07-22, 11:27 PM
This gives you two OA, one for each hand (via TWF), which can then be Twin Strikes (via HBO), but it ends there; to do the 'infinite' attacks, Twin Strikes would have to grant OA, which it doesn't.

I don't think that's true: HBO lets you use an At-Will instead of a basic attack when making Opportunity Attacks, but there's nothing that says the At-Will is no longer considered an OA while doing so. If that were the case, a Fighter with HBO couldn't use Combat Superiority with HBO, which would seem to badly cripple sword Fighters.

-H

Holocron Coder
2008-07-23, 01:27 AM
I don't think that's true: HBO lets you use an At-Will instead of a basic attack when making Opportunity Attacks, but there's nothing that says the At-Will is no longer considered an OA while doing so. If that were the case, a Fighter with HBO couldn't use Combat Superiority with HBO, which would seem to badly cripple sword Fighters.

-H

Another way to look at it, yes. The 4 attack is essentially: Twin Strike MH (with both), get OH OA, then make a Twin Strike (with both, again). Read in that order, it can make sense.

But, yeah, either way.

Viruzzo
2008-07-23, 02:59 AM
The requirement on Twin Strike is "wielding 2 melee weapons", so as long as you qualify for TWFlurry you can use it. Since TWFlurry gives you 2 OAs (maybe they intended "make a secondary basic attack"?), by HBO each can be a TS, so yeah 4 attacks (as long as you have a heavy blade in each hand of course).
To qualify for the second OA from TWFlurry you need to hit with the first attack, but with TS you are making 2, so how would you rule it? You need to hit with both MH attack and OH attack, or just one of the two, or just MH?

Holocron Coder
2008-07-23, 03:19 AM
The requirement on Twin Strike is "wielding 2 melee weapons", so as long as you qualify for TWFlurry you can use it. Since TWFlurry gives you 2 OAs (maybe they intended "make a secondary basic attack"?), by HBO each can be a TS, so yeah 4 attacks (as long as you have a heavy blade in each hand of course).
To qualify for the second OA from TWFlurry you need to hit with the first attack, but with TS you are making 2, so how would you rule it? You need to hit with both MH attack and OH attack, or just one of the two, or just MH?

I'd say just one, but that almost makes it too easy. So, one if you want it to happen often, both if you want it to be a rare thing.

Oslecamo
2008-07-23, 04:15 AM
Scissors is broken! Ban it!-paper
I think scissors is just right-rock.


OMG 4th edition isn't 120% balanced BURN THE BOOKS BURN THEM!

We must throw away theose crappy books and demand 5e now!

Yep, just like I previewed. People will call anything they don't like "broken". And god save there being any combination wich is slightly stronger than other.

Do you realize that if there was a truly perfectly balanced RPG, there would be no need for rules at all, because no mater your decisions the power of the final result would be the same?

But meh. Continue discussing what you consider broken or not.

I preview around 6 years time, the gaming boards will be filled with all kind of balance discussions about 4e, (insert class here)zilla will be called the paragon of power, Giacomo will be trying to defend some other class wich is considered awfully weak, and there will be a thousand diferent group of personal fixes for the game.

Because, from what I remember, 3e wasn't called bah-roken just a couple months after geting out. Give time for the optimizers to read the books a few dozen times and the holes will be discovered.

Antacid
2008-07-23, 04:34 AM
Scissors is broken! Ban it!-paper
I think scissors is just right-rock.


OMG 4th edition isn't 120% balanced BURN THE BOOKS BURN THEM!

We must throw away theose crappy books and demand 5e now!

What I don't understand is why people are apparently making the leap from "this power/combo is awesome" to, "this power breaks the game". 'Tisn't so. Even powers that grant huge attack bonuses or numbers of OA per round are still, by Epic tier, being used on enemies that have hundreds and hundreds of HP and attacks that do automatic damage or can reduce players to 0 HP instantly.

You're supposed to be unloading serious win at Epic tier: you have to, because all the enemies are able to do the same.


Because, from what I remember, 3e wasn't called bah-roken just a couple months after geting out. Give time for the optimizers to read the books a few dozen times and the holes will be discovered.
Trying to break the game has become a D&D internet sub-game, regardless of the edition. Hence the Pun-puns, all the wild claims based on the theoretical advantage given by a power like Lead the Attack that doesn't consider the practicalities of getting an unbalanced advantage from it in a real combat encounter, concepts based on character builds that a player would have to spend months if not a year or more of play to actually attain and use at epic level, etc.

wodan46
2008-07-23, 09:04 AM
Seal of Binding + Divine Regeneration can one-shot Orcus. No other combination of power + feature of that level can do that.

Crow
2008-07-23, 12:59 PM
Seal of Binding + Divine Regeneration can one-shot Orcus. No other combination of power + feature of that level can do that.

I don't think he can one-shot him. I think Divine Regeneration runs out before that can happen, but it does a severe insane amount of damage with no risk to the player doing it.

No other class has anything that can do something even close to this though, so it's still broken. It's not "slightly more poweful". Yeah, you're supposed to be "full of win" at epic, but when "full of win" means "makes encounters trivial", there is something seriously wrong.

wodan46
2008-07-23, 01:13 PM
My concern with Epic is not that things are overpowered, but that they are overpowered relative to each other. For example, Demigod's Divine Miracle is ok so long as other Epic Destinies have similar level 30 tricks, and level 30 monsters are built appropriately to deal with such.

Crow
2008-07-23, 01:23 PM
My concern with Epic is not that things are overpowered, but that they are overpowered relative to each other. For example, Demigod's Divine Miracle is ok so long as other Epic Destinies have similar level 30 tricks, and level 30 monsters are built appropriately to deal with such.

Well they usually aren't overpowered relative to eachother, but some are easier to use in a broken combination. Which is really the problem. Divine Miracle isn't all that much better than any other lvl30 feature by itself. But combined with certain powers, breaks.