Raising the dead

[herrhauptmann]

This question concerns raising Roy from the dead. I'm aware that Raise Dead will not work on a person who has been animated as an undead. But will it work on someone who's been animated as a golem? Though its a moot point, Roy's been dead over 3 months now, I can guarantee there's no 90th level clerics. (Dead a day per caster level), so it would be a Resurrection.
Probably not while he's still animated, but maybe if they bash the stone golem into bits, and then carry around roys bones in a bag.

Fortunately, it seems that Durkon can cast 7th level spells. Also, I know it says that Undead, Outsiders and Golems aren't affected by the spell, but they're not trying to bring back golem roy, they want human roy. Though a reincarnate spell would be pretty funny. Imagine Roy coming back as a kobold...

[mikeejimbo]

Yeah, very good points. Besides if there were a 90th level Cleric around they could cast True Resurrection anyway. Given WBL 25,000gp would be like handing out a tissue for a 90th level character. (Perhaps they'd owe him a...favor.)

[Jayngfet]

90th level? We're using 3.5 rules, resurrection still works.

[mikeejimbo]

Yeah, but doesn't it still have a level loss involved?

[Red XIV]

Don't all forms of bringing back the dead involve loss of a level?

Roy just has to fight some level-appropriate random encounters until he gets it back.

[slayerx]

This question concerns raising Roy from the dead. I'm aware that Raise Dead will not work on a person who has been animated as an undead. But will it work on someone who's been animated as a golem? Though its a moot point, Roy's been dead over 3 months now, I can guarantee there's no 90th level clerics. (Dead a day per caster level), so it would be a Resurrection.
Probably not while he's still animated, but maybe if they bash the stone golem into bits, and then carry around roys bones in a bag.

Fortunately, it seems that Durkon can cast 7th level spells. Also, I know it says that Undead, Outsiders and Golems aren't affected by the spell, but they're not trying to bring back golem roy, they want human roy. Though a reincarnate spell would be pretty funny. Imagine Roy coming back as a kobold...

The issue of how long Roy has been dead is a moot point since a resurrection spell would work for up to 10 years... it just means that it's gonna cost a little more since a resurrection spell costs more than a raise dead spell...

Roy's corpse being a golem would complicate things as that Earth spirit is bound to be a problem for a returning coprse... most likely, they will need to destroy the golem, after which it would probably once again be considered just a pile of bones. After which the resurrection spell should be able to bring roy back from the remains...

However, if being turned into a golem makes the bones permanently unusable for resurrection, Roy can still be brought back... it just gets more complicated since they need a True Resurrection spell since that bring back someone from nothing... though this is complicated since that is beyond Durken's abilities and they will need to find another cleric

[mikeejimbo]

This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

Emphasis mine

Link for posterity: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

[Tempest Fennac]

There's a non-core level 8 Druid spell called Coccoon which Reincarnates the target without any level or Con loss, but it takes a week to work (it's free to cast if I remember correctly, though. It was mentioned in a Spirit Shaman thread, so I'll try to find it for you.)

EDIT: Here's the thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85203 (the spell actually has a small Exp. cost and it needs to be used quickly).

[David Argall]

"...it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures."

This means you can't cast the spell and have your construct back in working order, or revive the vampire. It does not mean that the spell can't bring Roy back here.

[Kato]

I'll join the 'true ressurection' people... Though I think it's necessary to find an appropiate cleric, but... that's probably not this much of a challenge. After all Haley's damn rich and she can afford it without problems, isn't she?

[Samurai Jill]

However, if being turned into a golem makes the bones permanently unusable for resurrection, Roy can still be brought back... it just gets more complicated since they need a True Resurrection spell since that bring back someone from nothing... though this is complicated since that is beyond Durken's abilities and they will need to find another cleric
Since Roy lost most of his body tissue, they were going to have to use Resurrection anyway. If they get access to True Resurrection, why not bring Lirian or Durokan? :p

But yeah, all you need to do is probably kill the golem... once you're finished with it, 'course. I mean, it's a perfectly good meat shield. Waste not, wont not. :)

[Underground]

The Golem would be a "perfect meat shield" if they would have gained control over him. As they dont know the command word for him, he is just weight.

[Tempest Fennac]

SoD spoiler regarding Lirian or Durokan.

After Xykon killed them, their souls ended up trapped in agem thanks to Soul Bind. Until the gem is destroyed or dispelled, they can't be brought back under any circumstances.

[Samurai Jill]

No, no, I mean you could literally fasten Roy to your arm and use him to boost your armour class. Or maybe drop him on enemies from above! :smallamused:


After Xykon killed them, their souls ended up trapped in agem thanks to Soul Bind. Until the gem is destroyed or dispelled, they can't be brought back under any circumstances.
Yeah, but, how did Lord Soon know about the phylactery, then? Plus, everything in Durokan's castle the OotS didn't loot or walked out with RC got blasted in the explosion.

[Tempest Fennac]

Those are good points. Admittedly, Soon may have known about the Psylactery from his own knowledge or anothe source, and a lot of people assumed that the gem was too important to have been destroyed off-screen before we even found out about it, especially since Xykon was shown with the gem in the online comic as well.

[brant167]

The problem now is which bones are Roys. "It takes 6 dead bodies to make one golem." If you start breaking bones you have a one in six chance of raising Roy instread of raising another poor sap whoes body was sold to the frog men.

[Jade_Tarem]

Resurrection will still work fine.

The time limit won't expire for a long time, and even if all of the bones on the bone golem aren't Roy's, the skull certainly is. If they need to, they can break off a piece of that (remember, you only need a little bit of Roy for a resurrection) and cast the spell on it. Even if the skull is someone else's they can probably sweep up enough of Roy from inside his armor (Ewww) to get it to work.

True Resurrection does not involve level loss, but every other form does.

Fun Fact: Resurrection works on creatures that have been turned into undead, constructs, or even items. Many a party has purchased a suit of dragonhide plate made out of a *good* dragon and Resurrected it before fighting the big bad of their game.

"That's right, Morticus! It's just you, us, and this Ancient Gold Dragon we rezzed five minutes ago!"

[DreadSpoon]

Yeah, but, how did Lord Soon know about the phylactery, then?

"You have to know these things when you're king, you know."


Plus, everything in Durokan's castle the OotS didn't loot or walked out with RC got blasted in the explosion.

You mean like the Cloister headband stolen from Dorukon which somehow managed to make it out of the castle without being explicitly shown to us during the escape? Obviously Redcloak took some of Xykon's more important treasures with him when he and the MitD left without our knowledge.

[Samurai Jill]

I guess that's a fair point. But what's the worst that can happen? You cast the spell, say the name, nothing happens. No harm done...

And if it works, you get an epic-level spellcaster or two with a very vested interest in safeguarding those gates virtually for free.

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think the Order know any Clerics who can cast it (also, bringing them back would take the focus of the Order, at least until old age kills Durukon unless he was killed and reincarnated).

[FujinAkari]

You mean like the Cloister headband stolen from Dorukon which somehow managed to make it out of the castle without being explicitly shown to us during the escape? Obviously Redcloak took some of Xykon's more important treasures with him when he and the MitD left without our knowledge.

Obviously not. The MitD didn't even know what the headband -was-, which makes it unlikely Redcloak grabbed it. Much more likely is that Xykon's equipment merely regenerated with him.

[Samurai Jill]

Should the MitD's powers of observation really be taken as evidence?

I don't think the Order know any Clerics who can cast it (also, bringing them back would take the focus of the Order, at least until old age kills Durukon unless he was killed and reincarnated).
Pfft, PCs. They'd swear the world revolves around them.

[DoomITP]

Obviously not. The MitD didn't even know what the headband -was-, which makes it unlikely Redcloak grabbed it. Much more likely is that Xykon's equipment merely regenerated with him.

or more likely that red cloak just didnt feel like telling the MITD about it since He/or she is so stupid

[Red XIV]

Obviously not. The MitD didn't even know what the headband -was-, which makes it unlikely Redcloak grabbed it.
The MiTD also didn't know what the Gates are...immediately after being told what they are. Its attention span could be measured in picoseconds.

[chibibar]

The MiTD also didn't know what the Gates are...immediately after being told what they are. Its attention span could be measured in picoseconds.

that long?? heck they were pointing at the gate and then he goes "what gate?" ;)

This is my personal take on the undead thing. The soul is trapped in the body. That is what different between automaton and undead. Golems are magical construct without a soul. They are given set of instruction and they follow it. Nothing else.

[Jorrath_Zek]

So what happens if they try casting "True Resurrection" while the Remains of Roy's body are being used by the Construct?..

I mean, they aren't really Roy's remains any more. They're a Bone Golem, so in effect, the remains of Roy Greenhilt no longer exist. If they did, don't you think Haley would be trying to grab the Golem as well?

[chibibar]

So what happens if they try casting "True Resurrection" while the Remains of Roy's body are being used by the Construct?..

I mean, they aren't really Roy's remains any more. They're a Bone Golem, so in effect, the remains of Roy Greenhilt no longer exist. If they did, don't you think Haley would be trying to grab the Golem as well?

not a problem :)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/True_resurrection

According to this rule (I don't have my books at work) They don't even need a body to do a true resurrection. They have his armor, his sword, and Celia. That should be enough.

also remember that you can cast all the resurrection spell or raise dead you want BUT if the person doesn't want to come back, they don't have to (this is not a spoiler since they try this before)

[Jade_Tarem]

that long?? heck they were pointing at the gate and then he goes "what gate?" ;)

This is my personal take on the undead thing. The soul is trapped in the body. That is what different between automaton and undead. Golems are magical construct without a soul. They are given set of instruction and they follow it. Nothing else.

The "where does the soul go" thing is largely a matter of personal fluff preference, although by definition Xykon's soul is not trapped in his body (because it's in his phylactery). I admit your take on it is different than most people's, who generally assume that the soul is off doing whatever and that undead are just as soulless as constructs.

Edit @earlier poster: Also, you can resurrect people even if their body is in use for another purpose, such as being a bone golem. The fact that it's a bone golem now doesn't mean that those aren't Roy Greenhilt's remains. That's all Resurrection needs.

Also, Roy will likely come back. You get a message in the afterlife that tells you the alignment of the cleric Rezzing you, so if Durkon casts the spell Roy's spirit will be aware that "Lawful Good Divine Caster" is attempting to rez him. On the other hand, if the Haley/Celia team has to hire out, then they may end up with a more dubious cleric that Roy may not come back to.

[Stormthorn]

I would Wish him. But thats just me.

I was dissapointed when this thread didnt turn out to be the Necrophilia Only edition of the OOTS House of Horrors.:smallwink:

[chibibar]

The "where does the soul go" thing is largely a matter of personal fluff preference, although by definition Xykon's soul is not trapped in his body (because it's in his phylactery). I admit your take on it is different than most people's, who generally assume that the soul is off doing whatever and that undead are just as soulless as constructs.

Edit @earlier poster: Also, you can resurrect people even if their body is in use for another purpose, such as being a bone golem. The fact that it's a bone golem now doesn't mean that those aren't Roy Greenhilt's remains. That's all Resurrection needs.

Also, Roy will likely come back. You get a message in the afterlife that tells you the alignment of the cleric Rezzing you, so if Durkon casts the spell Roy's spirit will be aware that "Lawful Good Divine Caster" is attempting to rez him. On the other hand, if the Haley/Celia team has to hire out, then they may end up with a more dubious cleric that Roy may not come back to.

Yea. I know the Liches play by a different rule in terms of "hiding the soul" but that is still trapped. Cause the soul is tied to the phylactery which is PART of the Lich requirement. Death Knights, Ghouls, Ghasts, zombies, skeletal warriors etc etc I personally go with their soul are trapped within the realm of the body (is that better ;) ) and thus cannot be resurrected.

[Evil DM Mark3]

The 3.xed RAW states that only undead with an Int score have (or are) souls. So you cannot raise a vampire as its soul is unavailable. A ghost or shadow is nothing but a soul (and this is unavailable) but a zombie? Sure no problem, soul is free as a bird.

[GSFB]

SoD spoiler regarding Lirian or Durokan.


Spoiler
After Xykon killed them, their souls ended up trapped in agem thanks to Soul Bind. Until the gem is destroyed or dispelled, they can't be brought back under any circumstances.

I believe a Wish or Miracle could solve that problem, and if you have access to True Resurrection, you probably have access to Miracle.

Also, V and Durkon could attempt to perform Wish or Miracle (or True Resurrection) spells via scrolls - they would just have to make checks and would run the risk of catastrophic spell failure.