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Tombstone
2008-07-22, 08:31 PM
Hello playground. My DM has given me the go to allow me to play as a monster
PC. I was thinking about trying a Doppleganger for his mid level campaign. The players are all 13th lvl currently. I've never tried a monster class so i wanted to make sure i was correct in this next assumption. Would this equal 13 levels:
+4 lvl adjustment, it's 4 hitdice & say 5 levels of Monk? I'm assuming this is correct according to the rules on ECL but needed confirmation.
Thanks again.

ericgrau
2008-07-22, 08:34 PM
Yeup. That is correct.

Note that a doppleganger might be weak if it weren't for his special abilities. Be sure to exploit them when planning your character.

Worira
2008-07-22, 08:34 PM
Yes. Be aware, though, that you will suck as none have sucked before.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 08:35 PM
As far as I understand it, that's correct.

Edit: Wow was I ninja'd

Tombstone
2008-07-22, 08:41 PM
Excellent thanks again. Is/will the BAB be +8 from lvls 1st thru 8th?
I know 4 lvls are because of the monstrous hitdice, but wasnt sure about the
+4 lvl adjustment.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-22, 08:44 PM
You might want to think about something besides monk for your class levels.

Grynning
2008-07-22, 08:47 PM
Why are you going Monk? Rogue synergizes well with a Doppleganger, and you can take Imp. Unarmed Strike and the appropriate feats if you want to be a bare-handed stealth character (useful for a spy to not need weapons). If you want the semi-mystical badassery take levels in Unarmed Swordsage, or use the unarmed rogue build and take some levels in Mindspy from Complete Warrior. It's not a great PrC, but it's a fun use for your Telepathy power.

skywalker
2008-07-22, 08:48 PM
Excellent thanks again. Is/will the BAB be +8 from lvls 1st thru 8th?
I know 4 lvls are because of the monstrous hitdice, but wasnt sure about the
+4 lvl adjustment.

Your total BAB will be +7, four for 4 Racial(Monstrous Humanoid) HD, and 3 for your 5 levels of monk. You don't get any BAB for your LA trouble(this, along with low HP, is the primary problem with high LA creatures as characters).

Jayngfet
2008-07-22, 08:48 PM
Dopplegangers are best done roleplay wise, imagine the NPC's surprise when that prostitute shifts into a horrifying Grey thing mid groan.

Grynning
2008-07-22, 08:52 PM
I love Changelings if you want to be this type of character. 0 LA race with the best part of being a Doppleganger (the shape-shifting) left intact.

My changeling Cleric/Rogue was infamous in Sharn after an incident where he was arrested by an attractive female skymage and placed in a forcecage. Everyone on the street got a show when I shifted into an exact copy of the skymage and did a striptease:smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-07-22, 08:53 PM
That's why in Eberron, there are spells like Detect Shapeshifters.

Tombstone
2008-07-22, 08:54 PM
I chose a Monk class because I like felt it could be a good back up scout & have even greater survivability in regards to Monk AC bonuses coupled with the Dopples naturally high stats in Wisdom & Dexterity. Not to mention the Dopple has some good natural armor class. I suppose maybe a dip into Monk would suffice & maybe progress further into Fighter for more feats?

Eighth_Seraph
2008-07-22, 08:54 PM
...I think my brain just exploded. Thanks for the imagery, Grynning.

Anywho, Tombstone, if you're dead set on a martial artist RP background, then I would suggest the unarmed swordsage, or the monk variant in my signature (which has gotten some good reviews), which is based on different fighting styles and allows you to be a ninja or a Jiu Jitsu practitioner and some options in between. Otherwise, I would definitely not suggest any sort of frontliner character as a doppleganger.

Urg. Ninja'd. By the OP, even.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-22, 08:58 PM
I chose a Monk class because I like felt it could be a good back up scout & have even greater survivability in regards to Monk AC bonuses coupled with the Dopples naturally high stats in Wisdom & Dexterity. Not to mention the Dopple has some good natural armor class. I suppose maybe a dip into Monk would suffice & maybe progress further into Fighter for more feats?

... so you want to go monk/fighter? Why don't you take a few levels of healer if you are dead set on being that weak.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 09:04 PM
I love Changelings if you want to be this type of character. 0 LA race with the best part of being a Doppleganger (the shape-shifting) left intact.

I thought the best part of Doppelgangers was the +2 to all stats except Wisdom, which is a +4.

Grynning
2008-07-22, 09:30 PM
I thought the best part of Doppelgangers was the +2 to all stats except Wisdom, which is a +4.

High stats are easy to come by in 3.5, at-will, infinite duration disguise self not so much. Also, is that +2 to everything worth +4 LA?

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 09:34 PM
Admittedly not, but the only use I had for a doppelganger when I played one was for the Wisdom bonus. It wasn't an intrigue-heavy campaign, so I didn't have any reason to shapeshift all the time.

Although, I was also a Lich, and the DM said that as a lich I'd lose my shapeshifting, which was fine with me because I only wanted the Wisdom bonus.

You see, it was a gestalt campaign, and all this LA and RHD only applied to one 'class'. My other was a straight Cleric. :smallbiggrin:

skywalker
2008-07-22, 09:42 PM
You see, it was a gestalt campaign, and all this LA and RHD only applied to one 'class'. My other was a straight Cleric. :smallbiggrin:

D'oh.

That's borkened for sure. Oh wait, you said it was a broken gestalt campaign...

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 09:48 PM
D'oh.

That's borkened for sure. Oh wait, you said it was a broken gestalt campaign...

Yeah, the terms are basically synonymous aren't they? I think I had a +16 or so adjustment in all, 4 from RHD, 4 from Doppelganger LA, 4 from Lich, 4 from either half-fiend or half-fey, though I forget if my DM let me take half-fey. I was pretty much trying to squeeze every last bit of Wisdom out of 20 levels.

Good times, good times. Not to be taken extremely seriously of course.

ericgrau
2008-07-22, 10:03 PM
I chose a Monk class because I like felt it could be a good back up scout & have even greater survivability in regards to Monk AC bonuses coupled with the Dopples naturally high stats in Wisdom & Dexterity. Not to mention the Dopple has some good natural armor class. I suppose maybe a dip into Monk would suffice & maybe progress further into Fighter for more feats?

Monks have poor AC; they are as well armored as wizards. The wis and class bonuses are to keep his AC from sucking too badly, they aren't the stellar features that you look for when picking a monk.

Try a rogue. Seriously. Ranks in disguise will boost your shapeshifting effectiveness up the wazoo. He also has the scouting skills you need, and more. Grab a masterwork or magic buckler for even more AC. You apply its armor check penalty to attack rolls for being non-proficient. And its armor check penalty is zero, so...

Or you might want to try a bard. He has the same skills you need, almost as many skill points. Plus the knowledge skills so you can know about different monsters to shift into (read the knowledge skill description!). He has good spells to complement your scouting, disguising, charming role. Plus the standard fare like glitterdust, heroism, haste, glibness, etc. are wonderful. If you get utility spells or cure light wounds, may a lynch mob find you. Save those for scrolls and wands. If you buff or sing during combat, may the same mob find you. It's not worth it. Do it before combat or at the beginning of the long main villian fight, unless it's an uber-multi-target-buff like haste.

Either way, be sure to read the skill rules carefully so you know what you can do. And make heavy use of detect thoughts. It's a great scouting spell that the doppelganger gets at will. It works through wooden doors too. The information is great for both recon and setting up a disguise or a charm spell. All together he gets a +8 to bluff and +18 to disguise checks (vs. the standard +10 shapeshifting bonus). Ha! Let's see a changeling do that!

Wait, did I just suggest to an inexperienced player that a bard was his best option? Heaven help me.:smalleek:

Nerd-o-rama
2008-07-22, 10:30 PM
High stats are easy to come by in 3.5, at-will, infinite duration disguise self not so much.Hat of Disguise.

Grynning
2008-07-22, 10:47 PM
Hat of Disguise.

Can fall off.

Worira
2008-07-22, 11:27 PM
Can fall off.

A strap.GTIP WANTS MOAR WORDS

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 11:28 PM
Also, doesn't True Seeing see past any shapeshifting?

Vortling
2008-07-22, 11:40 PM
Can fall off.

Also doesn't grant you nifty bonuses to Bluff or get you 10 skill points per level if you play a rogue.

Benejeseret
2008-07-22, 11:45 PM
What about a Spellthief?

Steal their abilities, their face, and if psionics exist them go Psithief and with some dips in Psionic rogue (master spellthief) to steal their thoughts!

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-23, 02:16 AM
Don't play a doppleganger. The LA and racial HD suck and it's the one monster race you can easily replicate with a single PrC.

What you want is to be a changeling with all 5 levels of the Cabinet Trickster PrC (Races of Eberron). You can take it as soon as your changeling hits level 6 if you have Disguise as a class skill, and at level 11 start taking whatever other class you want.

At the end, you'll have the same Change Shape (Su) ability true dopplegangers have, the same detect thoughts at will (Su) ability, the same racial skill mods, and all you'll lose is some minor +2 ability scores adjustments and darkvision.

What you'll gain is 4 levels of HD, saves, skill points, and 8 levels of class features. You'll be able to take some truly cool replacement class features, gain Speak Languages as a permanent class skill, have some tricks you can do with your detect thoughts ability (like stun, disrupt, daze and confuse) and add two bonus changeling feats.

I also recommend Warshaper if you're interested in ability score increases. The first level grants critical immunity while the second is +4 Strength and +4 Constitution, and Changelings qualify as soon as they hit BAB +4. Level 4 is a permanent fast healing 2 ability, and it's possible you could reach that before you start if you focus your build on it.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-23, 02:54 AM
A strap.

Or a jug of glue.

Tombstone
2008-07-23, 08:14 AM
Don't play a doppleganger. The LA and racial HD suck and it's the one monster race you can easily replicate with a single PrC.

What you want is to be a changeling with all 5 levels of the Cabinet Trickster PrC (Races of Eberron). You can take it as soon as your changeling hits level 6 if you have Disguise as a class skill, and at level 11 start taking whatever other class you want.

At the end, you'll have the same Change Shape (Su) ability true dopplegangers have, the same detect thoughts at will (Su) ability, the same racial skill mods, and all you'll lose is some minor +2 ability scores adjustments and darkvision.

What you'll gain is 4 levels of HD, saves, skill points, and 8 levels of class features. You'll be able to take some truly cool replacement class features, gain Speak Languages as a permanent class skill, have some tricks you can do with your detect thoughts ability (like stun, disrupt, daze and confuse) and add two bonus changeling feats.

I also recommend Warshaper if you're interested in ability score increases. The first level grants critical immunity while the second is +4 Strength and +4 Constitution, and Changelings qualify as soon as they hit BAB +4. Level 4 is a permanent fast healing 2 ability, and it's possible you could reach that before you start if you focus your build on it.

This sounds HOT! I'll research changelings & the Warshaper.
Thanks for everyones advice and great input.

Chronicled
2008-07-23, 10:24 AM
A strap.

Awesome. :smallamused:

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-23, 10:30 AM
I'd build it this way, but it depends on what you want to do with your character:


Any Full BAB class 1
Any Full BAB class 2
Any Full BAB class 3
Any Full BAB class 4
Warshaper 1 <--- Start taking Disguise ranks here.
Warshaper 2
Warshaper 3
Warshaper 4
Cabinet Trickster 1
Cabinet Trickster 2
Cabinet Trickster 3
Cabinet Trickster 4
Cabinet Trickster 5


True, it only gives you 4 levels to work with, and limits you to full BAB base classes. But you'll be a regenerating, reach-extending, thought stealing, shape changing beast that's incredibly difficult to kill. And there are some fun Full BAB classes. I like Warblade, Duskblade, Rebalanced Paladin (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045), and Crusader a lot myself. Warblade would probably feel the most monk-like, I suppose.

nargbop
2008-07-23, 07:36 PM
What's the only thing more awesome than a full-arcane caster Changeling with maxxed Bluff and Disguise? A full-arcane caster Changeling with maxxed Bluff and disguise AND a bag full of Glibness potions. Wear a dozen faces a day, steal the town blind and set them running after imaginary bandits. Whee! If your group enjoys ribald jokes, switch genders often and run amok. Heck, go and find the Book of Erotic Fiction and run with it.

Monk is a poor choice for a high-LA creature like Doppelganger. Monks are not very strong in 3.5 You can achieve the same sort of backstory (cunning shapeshifter who uses no weapons who fights for blahblahblah) using scout, a couple levels of fighter for Unarmed feats, and some sort of fun prestige class.

Chronos
2008-07-23, 10:41 PM
What's the only thing more awesome than a full-arcane caster Changeling with maxxed Bluff and Disguise? A full-arcane caster Changeling with maxxed Bluff and disguise AND a bag full of Glibness potions.Unfortunately, you can't make a potion of a personal-range spell.

_Zoot_
2008-07-24, 02:06 AM
Were can i find Changelings?

quiet1mi
2008-07-24, 02:48 AM
Awesome. :smallamused:

you know the hat of disguise can change into a bow tie or business tie of disguise (it changes at your will)

@zoot campaign guide to eberron