Superman & Kryptonite

[SolkaTruesilver]

All right. I can't take it anymore, it's silly.

Kryptonite is supposed to be the substance that made Superman's planet..

Well, someone would think that they are USED to the stuff, wouldn't they? Why would they become crippled weaklings when they are exposed to the stuff they live on?

Another thing, if Krypton was a planet full of Supermen, why didn't they stopped the darn asteroid in the first place?!

[Kaelaroth]

NO!

Kryptonians only have superpowers on Earth. Because we have a yellow sun. Krypton had a red sun. And Kryptonite is radioactive pieces of Krypton. Not what Krypton was originally.

Also, there's a Comic Book board.

EDIT: Also, it wasn't an asteroid.

[Prophaniti]

I'll address the second question first, just for kicks.

The planet was full of ordinary people that evolved under a red sun. When Superman comes to earth, the radiation from our yellow sun is different and is what grants him his power. That's the canon, anyway.

Likewise, kryptonite is from his homeworld and is radiated with energy from their sun very strongly, and so deprives him of his power. In some continuities, it doesn't so much make him weak as it does make him normal, which after being super for so long, puts him at a serious disadvantage.

[Zeta Kai]

All right. I can't take it anymore, it's silly.

Kryptonite is supposed to be the substance that made Superman's planet..

Well, someone would think that they are USED to the stuff, wouldn't they? Why would they become crippled weaklings when they are exposed to the stuff they live on?

Another thing, if Krypton was a planet full of Supermen, why didn't they stopped the darn asteroid in the first place?!

{Scrubbed}, including (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman)this (http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/who/who-intro.php?topic=superman)one (http://www.supermansupersite.com/sup.html).

[Oslecamo]

What is completely silly is for some reason there are TONS of kryptonite on Earth.

No, seriously, it seems like everybody and anybody who hates like Superman can get his hand on first quality kryptonite and go make bullets/blades out of it.

It's a wonder humanity simply didn't died with all the kryptonite that rained on our planet.

[tyckspoon]

What is completely silly is for some reason there are TONS of kryptonite on Earth.

No, seriously, it seems like everybody and anybody who hates like Superman can get his hand on first quality kryptonite and go make bullets/blades out of it.

It's a wonder humanity simply didn't died with all the kryptonite that rained on our planet.

I'm pretty sure there was a point where the writers recognized how silly this was getting and just had somebody* start mass-producing a synthetic version. Which is only slightly less silly, but makes sense in comic-book science and gets rid of the absurdity of having what seems like half the mass of Krypton find its way to Earth.

*Luthor.

[TheThan]

I'm pretty sure there was a point where the writers recognized how silly this was getting and just had somebody* start mass-producing a synthetic version. Which is only slightly less silly, but makes sense in comic-book science and gets rid of the absurdity of having what seems like half the mass of Krypton find its way to Earth.

*Luthor.

Luthor would get rich (well OK even more rich off of that). not to mention superman, health would be in even greater danger than normal. unless of course you make the stuff hard to manufacture (and thusly more expensive to produce). that's the only way it'd be a viable excuse for just how much of the stuff is on earth.

[Green Bean]

Luthor would get rich (well OK even more rich off of that). not to mention superman, health would be in even greater danger than normal. unless of course you make the stuff hard to manufacture (and thusly more expensive to produce). that's the only way it'd be a viable excuse for just how much of the stuff is on earth.

I dunno about getting rich. Depending on the version, Luthor would either hoard all the synthetic kryptonite for himself so he's the one who defeats Superman, or making it so cheap that any two-bit villain has a chance of killing the Man of Steel. Either way, he wouldn't get much money.


Plus, in current continuity, nearly all of the world's kryptonite has been tossed into the sun, with the exception of a fragment Batman gets to keep.

[turkishproverb]

I'll address the second question first, just for kicks.

The planet was full of ordinary people that evolved under a red sun. When Superman comes to earth, the radiation from our yellow sun is different and is what grants him his power. That's the canon, anyway.

Likewise, kryptonite is from his homeworld and is radiated with energy from their sun very strongly, and so deprives him of his power. In some continuities, it doesn't so much make him weak as it does make him normal, which after being super for so long, puts him at a serious disadvantage.

Actually, it's currently a combination of earth's lower gravity (1G) AND a Yellow sun that does it.


Luthor would get rich (well OK even more rich off of that). not to mention superman, health would be in even greater danger than normal. unless of course you make the stuff hard to manufacture (and thusly more expensive to produce). that's the only way it'd be a viable excuse for just how much of the stuff is on earth.

Kryptonite can be dangerous to humans over the long term in many continuities.

[Tragic_Comedian]

I thought the canon explanation was that Krypton had a much heavier gravity than Earth, thereby providing for awesome feats of strength, running faster than a speeding bullet, and leaping tall buildings in a single bound.

Never mind.

[kamikasei]

I thought the canon explanation was that Krypton had a much heavier gravity than Earth, thereby providing for awesome feats of strength, running faster than a speeding bullet, and leaping tall buildings in a single bound.

It's a bit of both. It was a high-gravity world around a red sun, so the people are stronger when in lower gravity, but also somehow soak up more energy from Sol's yellow light and thus gain power. How exactly you get from "my photosynthetic metabolism is supercharged!" to "...thus I can break the laws of physics!" is never explained, of course.

What always amuses me is that Superman seems to be super wherever he goes, be the sunlight yellow, green, blue or absent all together. Partly it could be explained (as it has been) as his body storing solar energy even after he leaves Sol's light, but some depictions show Kryptonian-style red sunlight as immediately and totally sapping his powers, which doesn't add up.

Especially hilarious in that regard is the point where he flies a bad guy through Krypton's old sun. Er, if that sun drains your powers is it really a good idea to fly through its heart?

[WalkingTarget]

It's a bit of both. It was a high-gravity world around a red sun, so the people are stronger when in lower gravity, but also somehow soak up more energy from Sol's yellow light and thus gain power. How exactly you get from "my photosynthetic metabolism is supercharged!" to "...thus I can break the laws of physics!" is never explained, of course.

What always amuses me is that Superman seems to be super wherever he goes, be the sunlight yellow, green, blue or absent all together. Partly it could be explained (as it has been) as his body storing solar energy even after he leaves Sol's light, but some depictions show Kryptonian-style red sunlight as immediately and totally sapping his powers, which doesn't add up.

Especially hilarious in that regard is the point where he flies a bad guy through Krypton's old sun. Er, if that sun drains your powers is it really a good idea to fly through its heart?

Heh. How about in DKR when he's hit by a nuke and ends up pulling solar energy out of the jungle he crashes into afterwards in order to "recharge" or whatever (being too weak to fly up above the cloud cover)?

I also remember one of my dad's old comics where Luthor manages to get to a planet under an orange sun and then basically challenges Supes to a boxing match (as they both have moderate super powers there). The Silver Age was a weird time, wasn't it?

[Krytha]

I thought I read somewhere that Superman became immune to kryptonite during the apocalypse series or something. All I remember is that they dropped a nuke on a lot of superheroes and superman lived.

[WalkingTarget]

I thought I read somewhere that Superman became immune to kryptonite during the apocalypse series or something. All I remember is that they dropped a nuke on a lot of superheroes and superman lived.

You're thinking of the excellent Kingdom Come (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_%28comic_book%29) story. It's set in the future and is not exactly canonical, but yeah, they say that Supes has been soaking up the yellow rays long enough that even Kryptonite doesn't pack much of a punch anymore (and the nuke just pisses him off).

One of my favorite comics. :smallbiggrin:

[Tirian]

Plus, in current continuity, nearly all of the world's kryptonite has been tossed into the sun, with the exception of a fragment Batman gets to keep.

Of course "nearly all" still means that any writer can threaten Superman with K whenever he wants. The same sort of thing happened in 1970, when a chain reaction turned all of the kryptonite on earth into iron because the editors were sick of every pickpocket in the world carrying a chunk of it around.

[Oslecamo]

What always amuses me is that Superman seems to be super wherever he goes, be the sunlight yellow, green, blue or absent all together. Partly it could be explained (as it has been) as his body storing solar energy even after he leaves Sol's light, but some depictions show Kryptonian-style red sunlight as immediately and totally sapping his powers, which doesn't add up.


The canon is that superman can last for long periods of time whitout oxygen or sunlight because his body maximizes energy consuption or something like that.

Actually, there was an arc where super man was thrown into the space for months and ended losing his super powers for not being near a yellow star for so much time. But he can last for days whitout it as easily as we can hold our breath under water for several seconds.


On the topic of synthetic kryptonite: After superman's death and ressurection, Lex Luthor is shown entering personally on the remants of the alien base precisely to try to find the formula of synthetic kryptonite. So I guess he doesn't know how to do it, but it's easy job for super advanced alien races.

Oh, and he failed, because the whole thing came crumbling before he could extract the data.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I prefer another theory, which is 100% un-canon, never been approved, but that I think makes more sense.

Okay, all kryptonians are supermen (Superman himself is still better than most of them, since he was the Prince). But the asteroid who destroyed their planet was made of the material that we call Kryptonite, which is why they couldn't not prevent their destruction.

Makes much more sense to me :smallbiggrin:

[Kaelaroth]

I prefer another theory, which is 100% un-canon, never been approved, but that I think makes more sense.

Okay, all kryptonians are supermen (Superman himself is still better than most of them, since he was the Prince). But the asteroid who destroyed their planet was made of the material that we call Kryptonite, which is why they couldn't not prevent their destruction.

Makes much more sense to me :smallbiggrin:

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nerdrage
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:furious:

[Evil DM Mark3]

I prefer another theory, which is 100% un-canon, never been approved, but that I think makes more sense.

Okay, all kryptonians are supermen (Superman himself is still better than most of them, since he was the Prince). But the asteroid who destroyed their planet was made of the material that we call Kryptonite, which is why they couldn't not prevent their destruction.

Makes much more sense to me :smallbiggrin:

Save for a plot hole so massive that you could hide all of the state capitols of the USA in it, and still have room for the worlds 1000 largest buildings and the worlds top 100 natural tourist locations.

If they where all supermen why did they not just up sticks and move their godsdamned civilisation to a new planet. Based on what superman can do that would be a weekend's jaunt at the most, possibly no more difficult than moving house.

"Honey, did you turn the gas and water off on the old planet?"

[hamishspence]

If I remember rightly "the Green Death" was an experimental creation of General Zods, and ultimately, the reason for Krypton blowing in the first place. At least, in the more recent comics, as well as the Last Days of Krypton book.

So, you could blame "Kryptonite" for the destruction of Krypton.

[Foeofthelance]

Krypton wasn't destroyed by an asteroid, it exploded from with in. Why it did so has been blamed on several things. General Zod and a superweapon, the planet simply being the old, exploitation of the crust by the Kryptonians... The recent Supergirl series blamed Zor-El monkeying around with the Phantom Zone, but that may or may not be canon since I think the writers for the series all studied at the Neon Genesis Evangelion School of Writing and got their Masters at Raxephon University...

The recent explanation for why there was so much kryptonite available was the fact that Supergirl's ship had been travelling in a several hundred ton chunk, that broke up and scattered around the world. Batman and Superman then went world hopping to get rid of it all. But since this all happened in Batman/Superman, I don't know how relevant it is to the main DCU canon.

[sikyon]

The recent explanation for why there was so much kryptonite available was the fact that Supergirl's ship had been travelling in a several hundred ton chunk, that broke up and scattered around the world. Batman and Superman then went world hopping to get rid of it all. But since this all happened in Batman/Superman, I don't know how relevant it is to the main DCU canon.

There has been no evidence that Superman/Batman is not cannon or in the main universe, so we assume it is.

[Oslecamo]

If they where all supermen why did they not just up sticks and move their godsdamned civilisation to a new planet. Based on what superman can do that would be a weekend's jaunt at the most, possibly no more difficult than moving house.

"Honey, did you turn the gas and water off on the old planet?"

You forgot the ugliest plot filling of all history.

Kryptonians believed that should one of them leave their planet, they would die.

Yes, the super advanced kryptonians who built mechas and faster than light ships had some bizzarre unexplainable fear of space that led them to believe that should they try to leave the planet they would die horrible deaths.

That's why they didn't save their own asses despite all the technology available to them. Superman's dad, on the other hand, decided that between leting his son die on the explosion or by leaving the planet there wasn't much of a diference so he built the ship and sent him. He wasn't much willing to go himself however.

It's still really really stupid. They were at the brink of destruction and still didn't dare go to space.

[Foeofthelance]

There has been no evidence that Superman/Batman is not cannon or in the main universe, so we assume it is.

Well, as far as I can tell it has much relevance as Astonishing X-Men does in the Marvel universe. The events themselves may be considered canon, but the storylines are rarely, if ever, mentioned in other books, and it doesn't directly tie into any of its parent series.

[kamikasei]

Kryptonians believed that should one of them leave their planet, they would die.

Yes, the super advanced kryptonians who built mechas and faster than light ships had some bizzarre unexplainable fear of space that led them to believe that should they try to leave the planet they would die horrible deaths.

*Gawps*

When was this idiocy announced?

[Tirian]

That's why they didn't save their own asses despite all the technology available to them. Superman's dad, on the other hand, decided that between leting his son die on the explosion or by leaving the planet there wasn't much of a diference so he built the ship and sent him. He wasn't much willing to go himself however.

At least when I was reading, it wasn't a myth or Kryptonian smugness. The ancient Kryptonians had engaged in a war that threatened somehow to destroy the galaxy. And the payback was The Eradicator, an artifact that changed Kryptonian DNA such that they were unable to leave the planet without dying. Jor-El was able to reverse-engineer the curse on his pre-born sun and launched the birthing matrix to Earth. He didn't save himself or Lara because he hadn't worked out the problems of making a spaceship powerful enough to carry and support fully-grown people and also didn't know how to remove the curse from anyone who had been born.

Of course, I guess Birthright changed everything about all of this story, and I've never read it.

[sikyon]

Well, as far as I can tell it has much relevance as Astonishing X-Men does in the Marvel universe. The events themselves may be considered canon, but the storylines are rarely, if ever, mentioned in other books, and it doesn't directly tie into any of its parent series.

kara zor-el

[Gavin Sage]

While Superman's history is currently written on water and yet to be fully defined.... Kryptonite was not somehow safe on Krypton. Last time it was dealt with it was the cause of Krypton's destruction and is the result of some super-weapon reaction that before blowing up the planet was busy distablizing the core and giving people cancer.

Also there isn't terribly much kryptonite around, even counting a giant meteor of the stuff. After COIE there was at one point supposedly just a single piece of kyptonite, that got stuck on Supes ship and dragged there. Most of that hunk went to powering Metallo with a few shards floating around. Even at present if you aren't Lex Luthor or Batman then 99.99% of the time you don't have any.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I thought that only Superman left because everybody thought Jor El had slipped off his rocker and become and insane doomsayer. But I guess that may just be me not having read the comics apart from All Star Superman which isn't canon.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Lets just leave this here before someone trots out the 15 or so types of Kryptonite...

[Oslecamo]

At least when I was reading, it wasn't a myth or Kryptonian smugness. The ancient Kryptonians had engaged in a war that threatened somehow to destroy the galaxy. And the payback was The Eradicator, an artifact that changed Kryptonian DNA such that they were unable to leave the planet without dying. Jor-El was able to reverse-engineer the curse on his pre-born sun and launched the birthing matrix to Earth. He didn't save himself or Lara because he hadn't worked out the problems of making a spaceship powerful enough to carry and support fully-grown people and also didn't know how to remove the curse from anyone who had been born.

Of course, I guess Birthright changed everything about all of this story, and I've never read it.

It doesn't change the fact that EVERY single kryptonian who left the planet for one reason or the other survived pretty well.

Anyway, DNA killing you if you left your planet? A space ship carrying an embryo being easier to build than a space ship carrying fully developed adults wich, like, are much more resilient and easy to sustain?

It doesn't matter how you look at it, it's still completely idiot for such an advanced race to don't come up with some problem when their planet was dying.

Not to mention, last time I checked, the Eradicator was created by the kryptonians themselves.

Like someone else said, the story changes every year.

[Kaelaroth]

Yes, the super advanced kryptonians who built mechas and faster than light ships had some bizzarre unexplainable fear of space that led them to believe that should they try to leave the planet they would die horrible deaths.

They'd been to space. And died. Kryptonians had settlements on neighbouring moons, but didn't push further out when terrorists (possibly of Zod) started destroying them in events leading up to the Civil War on Krypton.

[SolkaTruesilver]

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nerdrage
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:furious:

I know. I love you too.

But, I mean, I'm a comic book pagan. It's all right to act that way toward me :smallcool:

[Manga Shoggoth]

Anyway, DNA killing you if you left your planet? A space ship carrying an embryo being easier to build than a space ship carrying fully developed adults wich, like, are much more resilient and easy to sustain?

Nope. That is quite believable. Something as small as an embryo would be able to withstand massive acceleration and deceleration.

In much the same way that a mouse (or insect) jumping off a building would survive, an adult human would be critically injured or killed, and an elephant would ... splash.

[Oslecamo]

Nope. That is quite believable. Something as small as an embryo would be able to withstand massive acceleration and deceleration.

In much the same way that a mouse (or insect) jumping off a building would survive, an adult human would be critically injured or killed, and an elephant would ... splash.

You, sir, know very little of science.

First, try throwing a insect larva or baby cat/rat out of a building. Did it survive thr situation where his parent survived? I highly doubt so.

Second,by the laws of evolution, cats, rats and other small animals have a much greater chance of having to falling big distances, so their bodies have adapted to be flexible and whitstand that kind of punishment.

Elephants, on the other hand, due to his habitat and big size, probably will never fall big distances or any kind of acrobacy during their whole lifes, thus evolution has given them bodies with little flexibility. because giving an animal a characteristic he'll never need is a waste of resources.

A lion or tiger or some other big cat, on the other hand, would probably be able to fall as much if not more than a rat/insect, since they have the flexible bodies necessary for this kind of punishment, due to the fact they need to be agile to hunt their prey.

Besides, there are plenty of documented cases of soldiers whose parachutes failed to open and thus plumeted to the ground from really big distances but survived thanks to landing in something soft like big piles of snow or dense canopies, with nothing more than some broken bones and scratches. Well enough to report back to the headquarters at least.

Anyway, our adult astronauts can go in space and endure the huge acelerations/desacelarations, so how in hell does the super advanced kryptonians can't?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Gah! Tiz a Ninja! /\


In much the same way that a mouse (or insect) jumping off a building would survive, an adult human would be critically injured or killed, and an elephant would ... splash.

Try again. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidNotDoTheResearch)

What determines if a creature will be able to survive falls from great heights is its terminal velocity, NOT G tolerance. This is related to mass, but not directly. It is a function of both mass and surface area. Did you know that if you drop a domestic cat out of a building at above about the 7th floor it will be able to land safely? This is not because the cat is small or because if has high G tolerance but because a cat instinctively adopts the same splayed stance as a sky diver whilst falling and the terminal velocity when flat like this is below the lethal one (NOTE: True for cats, NOT for people). Interestingly rats can survive higher falls than mice, because they are better at taking the damage and can get that flat posture easily. Elephants, not so much...

An embryo would be sheer murder to get into space because, without any sort of real re-enforcement as provided by an exo/endo-skeleton it would squash flat real easy.

[Dervag]

You, sir, know very little of science.

First, try throwing a insect larva or baby cat/rat out of a building. Did it survive thr situation where his parent survived? I highly doubt so.That's a very simplistic approach. To be quite honest, I'm not sure you know a lot more about science than they do. You know different things about science, but that doesn't confer the whole picture by itself.


Second,by the laws of evolution, cats, rats and other small animals have a much greater chance of having to falling big distances, so their bodies have adapted to be flexible and whitstand that kind of punishment.

Elephants, on the other hand, due to his habitat and big size, probably will never fall big distances or any kind of acrobacy during their whole lifes, thus evolution has given them bodies with little flexibility. because giving an animal a characteristic he'll never need is a waste of resources.

A lion or tiger or some other big cat, on the other hand, would probably be able to fall as much if not more than a rat/insect, since they have the flexible bodies necessary for this kind of punishment, due to the fact they need to be agile to hunt their prey.No, there's totally a reason of physics. Big heavy animals have high mass to surface area ratios. Which means that they have a much higher terminal velocity. Therefore they fall faster when they hit the ground. A falling ant reaches terminal velocity almost immediately and thus falls quite slowly. And their tissues are very strong relative to their body mass, so they bear up well under the impact. Elephants take a long time to reach terminal velocity and can build up a very great speed while falling, and their muscles and bones aren't nearly as strong relative to its body mass as the ant's muscles and chitin are to it. This is also why ants can lift multiples of their own body weight and elephants can't.

Similarly, it's why small cats can survive enormously long falls. Their terminal velocity is low enough and their reflexes are good enough. They can twist around into position to absorb the greatest possible shock that hitting the ground at their (low) terminal velocity could deliver.

But the physics here doesn't have anything to do with evolution; ants don't spend much more of their time falling off of cliffs or out of trees than elephants do. And yet an ant will survive a fall that no elephant could possibly survive. Tigers are better at surviving falls than elephants, but only short falls- falls in which the tiger does not reach its terminal velocity. If you drop a tiger off a 200 foot cliff it will be killed, whereas an ant or a spider will survive. The ant simply cannot fall fast enough to kill itself- the tiger can.
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Now this doesn't really apply to babies in accelerating rocketships. Babies are smaller and have a lower terminal velocity, but that doesn't protect them from large forces. On the other hand, you can immerse an embryo entirely in fluid; in fact you probably have to. Things immersed in fluid can take much greater accelerations than things resting on a solid surface.

A very new embryo would be even easier, because it's so small it has little internal structure to damage.


Besides, there are plenty of documented cases of soldiers whose parachutes failed to open and thus plumeted to the ground from really big distances but survived thanks to landing in something soft like big piles of snow or dense canopies, with nothing more than some broken bones and scratches. Well enough to report back to the headquarters at least.That's because a human's lowest terminal velocity, when falling spread-eagled, is low enough that you can survive crashing into a big cushy thing like snow or a dense forest canopy. You could also survive being flung out of a catapult into a pile of mattresses at that speed; it's the same idea and it works for the same reason.


Anyway, our adult astronauts can go in space and endure the huge acelerations/desacelarations, so how in hell does the super advanced kryptonians can't?Are you so sure it's the acceleration that does it?

[Foeofthelance]

kara zor-el

I've seen her in cameos in plenty of other books, but with the exception of the Future Titans arc in Teen Titans I really haven't seen her in any major role. I admit I also dont actually read any of the Batman or Superman books with the exception of B/S and the current R.I.P. arcs, so it miht very well be that I'm missing something. But having seen how DC is handling her title series, with its ability to simply jump all over the place without actually finishing anythhing, I dont see them using her as major world player for a while.

[krossbow]

Even at present if you aren't Lex Luthor or Batman then 99.99% of the time you don't have any.

Or a random thug; seeing as tons of Bob the Generic thug characters have stumbled upon some kryptonite in a pawnshop as jewelry and gone on to punch superman half to death.



The problem with the kryptonian dna being unsustainable off of krypton is the phantom zone; By all logic, it should be a death sentence. But Zod seems to do fairly well when he pops out.

[Hectonkhyres]

Question:

WHICH OF YOU SICK BASTARD TOSSED LARGE NUMBERS OF CATS, KITTENS, MICE, RATS, PEOPLE, FETUSES, BABIES AND ELEPHANTS OUT OF SEVENTH-STORY WINDOWS? I DEMAND NAMES.
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That is all.

[Blue Paladin]

Question:

WHICH OF YOU SICK BASTARD TOSSED LARGE NUMBERS OF CATS, KITTENS, MICE, RATS, PEOPLE, FETUSES, BABIES AND ELEPHANTS OUT OF SEVENTH-STORY WINDOWS? I DEMAND NAMES.
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That is all.But it was all in the name of science!

And it was a eighth-story window, and Superman caught all of them at ground level with his Super Catching power. Except for that elephant with Kryptonite tusks... That one was messy...

[Aquillion]

It doesn't change the fact that EVERY single kryptonian who left the planet for one reason or the other survived pretty well.

Anyway, DNA killing you if you left your planet? A space ship carrying an embryo being easier to build than a space ship carrying fully developed adults wich, like, are much more resilient and easy to sustain?It was a retcon after the Crisis on Infinite Earths -- I think they wanted to make superman "unique" again. In the Silver Age there were more and more survivors from Krypton (not just Zod and Supergirl and Superman's dog and horse and all that, but the entire bottle city of Kandor and god knows what else.) Eventually, they just swept all that away -- even Zod and Supergirl weren't from Krypton anymore. Officially, Superman was supposed to be the only survivor (and since they know how easily things change, they re-wrote the backstory to try and make it impossible for anyone else to have survived, as concretely as they could.)

It still didn't take, though -- especially Supergirl was hard to kill off, because she'd been around long enough to be important to lots of other people. First they tried to erase her from history completely so totally that nobody remembered her, then they tried to introduce someone else who happened to be called Supergirl but wasn't from Krypton... finally, the 'real' Supergirl came back recently, because let's face it, every reader who picks up their comics for the first time is going to know that Supergirl is Superman's cousin from Krypton, no matter how frothing-angry DC's current editorial staff gets about wanting to make Superman more unique.


*Gawps*

When was this idiocy announced?Well, there is at least one logical reason why some such explaination had to exist. Never mind the specific circumstances around the disaster that destroyed Krypton...

When a Kryptonian leaves their home planet for a yellow star (which are quite common in the galaxy), they become living gods. Practically immortal, nearly invincible, able to fly and (depending on what era) move quickly enough to travel through time, toss around entire planets for fun, whatever.

So the question isn't how did they survive the destruction of their planet, but -- if they had space travel technology at all -- why were there any Kryptonians left on Krypton to be killed in the first place? I mean, srsly.

[Tallis]

I prefer another theory, which is 100% un-canon, never been approved, but that I think makes more sense.

Okay, all kryptonians are supermen (Superman himself is still better than most of them, since he was the Prince). But the asteroid who destroyed their planet was made of the material that we call Kryptonite, which is why they couldn't not prevent their destruction.

Makes much more sense to me :smallbiggrin:

You're right that does make more sense. Unfortunately not one part of it is true within the Superman mythos.
I could say that Batman is good as he is because he's a martian manhunter like J'onn J'onnz. It would make sense if it were true, but it's not.

On the subject of kryptonite: I don't read Superman regularly, so this may have been changed, but at one time I remember reading that green k was from Krypton's core. The kryptonians wouldn't have had contact with it on there home planet, at least not much.

[Oslecamo]

That's a very simplistic approach. To be quite honest, I'm not sure you know a lot more about science than they do. You know different things about science, but that doesn't confer the whole picture by itself.

Of course it's a simplistic aproach. I could go out there and make a full research with calculations, errors, probabilities, get all the correct documentation and everything, but it would take months and really don't be worth the effort, specially when my uni teachers will actually give me oficial grades for such an effort.




No, there's totally a reason of physics. Big heavy animals have high mass to surface area ratios. Which means that they have a much higher terminal velocity. Therefore they fall faster when they hit the ground. A falling ant reaches terminal velocity almost immediately and thus falls quite slowly. And their tissues are very strong relative to their body mass, so they bear up well under the impact. Elephants take a long time to reach terminal velocity and can build up a very great speed while falling, and their muscles and bones aren't nearly as strong relative to its body mass as the ant's muscles and chitin are to it. This is also why ants can lift multiples of their own body weight and elephants can't.


We're in space. No air to slow you down.




Similarly, it's why small cats can survive enormously long falls. Their terminal velocity is low enough and their reflexes are good enough. They can twist around into position to absorb the greatest possible shock that hitting the ground at their (low) terminal velocity could deliver.


And wasn't evolution wich granted them those flexible bodies and great reflexes?



But the physics here doesn't have anything to do with evolution; ants don't spend much more of their time falling off of cliffs or out of trees than elephants do. And yet an ant will survive a fall that no elephant could possibly survive. Tigers are better at surviving falls than elephants, but only short falls- falls in which the tiger does not reach its terminal velocity. If you drop a tiger off a 200 foot cliff it will be killed, whereas an ant or a spider will survive. The ant simply cannot fall fast enough to kill itself- the tiger can.


Oh yes they do. Due to it's small size, almost any force will throw an ant into the air. A slight breeze, passing trough a crack, other nearby moving animals, all can give an ant a wild ride. Evolution dictates that ants that weren't able to suport big impacts(from an ant's point of view) got extinct.

An elephant, on the other hand, will probably live all of his life whitout meeting anything stronger than him that could even shake him. Most other animals are insects for them, and only a tornado could lift them in the air. So their bodies didn't evolve to be able to sustain huge impacts, because, well, very few things are a big impact for an elephant.




___________________________

Now this doesn't really apply to babies in accelerating rocketships. Babies are smaller and have a lower terminal velocity, but that doesn't protect them from large forces. On the other hand, you can immerse an embryo entirely in fluid; in fact you probably have to. Things immersed in fluid can take much greater accelerations than things resting on a solid surface.

A very new embryo would be even easier, because it's so small it has little internal structure to damage.


What about the radiation? Embryos are much more vulnerable to it due to the lack of tick tissues. And there's plenty of it in space.

Also what's stoping you from simply puting a breathing mask into the kryptonian and puting him inside some liquid?

Details, more details, we could make a thesis with hundreds of pages based on this.

Also, what would have happen to poor superman if there weren's a nice old couple to take care of him?



That's because a human's lowest terminal velocity, when falling spread-eagled, is low enough that you can survive crashing into a big cushy thing like snow or a dense forest canopy. You could also survive being flung out of a catapult into a pile of mattresses at that speed; it's the same idea and it works for the same reason.

Are you so sure it's the acceleration that does it?

What do you mean with this last sentence? I claimed that adult human beings can get on space and we did it, thus why would the kryptonians be unable?

[Dervag]

Of course it's a simplistic aproach. I could go out there and make a full research with calculations, errors, probabilities, get all the correct documentation and everything, but it would take months and really don't be worth the effort, specially when my uni teachers will actually give me oficial grades for such an effort.It isn't that difficult to present both sides of the story, is it?


We're in space. No air to slow you down.Yes, and we aren't falling towards a hard surface, either. The "falling" analogy is of limited use here, because being launched into space on a rocket is almost entirely unlike falling off a cliff. When you get launched into space you're being slammed into the floor with some multiple of your weight force. When you fall off a cliff, you feel no force except air resistance until you hit a sudden short stop at the end. It shouldn't make a real difference if you send a baby or a grown man into space; you're right about that.

My problem is just that I take exception to the reasons you name for claiming this. You're giving too much credit to evolved features and not enough to the laws of physics, which have a lot to do with fall resistance. It isn't just a matter of "evolution" giving all small animals a miraculous ability to survive long falls and not giving it to large animals. There's a reason of physics why a large animal would fall harder than a small animal, even if the two animals are identical in terms of their physiology and reflexes- except, of course for one of them being a miniature.


And wasn't evolution wich granted them those flexible bodies and great reflexes?Yes, but it doesn't make much difference; see below. The relation between size and fall resistance is much more important than the relation between specially evolved anti-falling features and fall resistance.


Oh yes they do. Due to it's small size, almost any force will throw an ant into the air. A slight breeze, passing trough a crack, other nearby moving animals, all can give an ant a wild ride. Evolution dictates that ants that weren't able to suport big impacts(from an ant's point of view) got extinct.I'll take your word for ants getting thrown in the air a lot. I've never seen it, but I know very little about the physical challenges an ant faces.

However, for any creature an ant's size, being hurtled through the air at terminal velocity isn't a big impact at all. Ants don't need to evolve resistance to falls, because their small size makes them inherently hard to kill with a fall. The terminal velocity of such a lightweight object with such a high surface-to-volume ratio is really low.

Ants do not possess any special "anti-falling" defenses the way cats do. They don't do anything special to avoid death in a fall, because they don't have to. They land with a jarring thump and get back on their feet easily, because falling a mile for an ant is no worse than falling a foot- roughly the distance an ant needs to achieve terminal velocity.

And falling a foot won't kill much of anything unless it's so heavy it overbalances and breaks something.
__________________

Now, domestic cats are big enough that they do need some special anti-falling defenses, because their terminal velocity is high enough to break bones if they land awkwardly. And they have indeed evolved such defenses, whereas ants have not.

But tigers are so big that except for very short falls, it doesn't matter how good they are at twisting their body into the best position to take the shock. If a tiger falls a few hundred feet it will be injured just as badly as a human being, and most likely be dead. That's because it has the same kind of terminal velocity a human does. The housecat is already falling as fast as it can go after the first hundred feet- so it can still save itself if it lands properly. The tiger can't.

Now, within the limited range of survivable falls for a tiger, I'm sure the tiger's exceptional agility and grace will make it more likely to survive a fall gracefully than most other animals of the same size and weight. But it doesn't give the tiger the fall resistance a housecat possesses, even if the tiger has all the same reflexes and physical abilities. And it can't possibly give the tiger even a fraction of the fall resistance of an ant. You can shove an ant out of a high altitude cargo plane and it'll be fine, assuming it doesn't get blown into an ocean and drown or something like that. It's even conceivable a housecat could survive that, because housecats have survived shorter falls that still give them time to reach terminal velocity. You couldn't possibly shove a tiger out of a plane and expect it to live.

The tiger has a bit more resistance to falling injuries than other animals in its size class. But that's not enough to overcome the inherent disadvantages of falling for a big animal. And even an animal with no special anti-falling reflexes at all can survive incredibly long falls if it is small enough.
_____________________________


What about the radiation? Embryos are much more vulnerable to it due to the lack of tick tissues. And there's plenty of it in space.Yes. It's a major concern. With a big enough spacecraft you can get so much radiation shielding that the place the embryo is kept in will be effectively immune to radiation. Either Kryptonians have really good anti-radiation materials, or they didn't send an embryo. Which, come to it, they didn't.


Also what's stoping you from simply puting a breathing mask into the kryptonian and puting him inside some liquid?Nothing whatsoever, and it will help considerably. Enough? Hard to say.


Details, more details, we could make a thesis with hundreds of pages based on this.I'm sure we could.


Also, what would have happen to poor superman if there weren's a nice old couple to take care of him?I think Jor-El was desperate; for whatever reasons he simply could not launch himself or his wife into space. He had to take a chance on at least being able to save his baby. I think plenty of people would make the same choice if faced with the same constraints.
_________________________


What do you mean with this last sentence? I claimed that adult human beings can get on space and we did it, thus why would the kryptonians be unable?What I meant is:

You observed (correctly) that adult humans can survive the accelerations required for space flight. You then said that you saw no reason that Kryptonians couldn't. My question is:

Is it necessarily high acceleration that kills Kryptonians when they try to travel into space? Couldn't it be some other factor?

[TheEmerged]

RE: The absurdity of the "afraid to go into space" thing. Don't laugh, it's been retconned in Green Lantern to apply to Daxamites too. During the Silver Age this was explained by being afraid of a nearby alien race that had actually conquored Krypton at one point in its history.

But given the way the "history" of the DCU is being ripped to shreds by editors bound and determined to bring the Silver Age back lately, anything I say about the current explanation might not be true by the time I finish this sentence.

[Manga Shoggoth]

You, sir, know very little of science.

Actually, I have a degree in Applied Physics. I am probably better qualified in the sciences than a lot of the people on the board. I just don't flaunt my qualifications unless provoked.

Dervag has given a nice answer to the rest of your points, although I would tend to point out momentum and transfer of energy as being the issues.


Besides, there are plenty of documented cases of soldiers whose parachutes failed to open and thus plumeted to the ground from really big distances but survived thanks to landing in something soft like big piles of snow or dense canopies, with nothing more than some broken bones and scratches. Well enough to report back to the headquarters at least.

This in no way invalidates my arguement. If there was no protection they wouldn't have survived. Incidentally, one of my friends did survive a parachute failure. He didn't walk away from it and he is now registered disabled.


Anyway, our adult astronauts can go in space and endure the huge acelerations/desacelarations, so how in hell does the super advanced kryptonians can't?

I suggest you re-read the point I was actually arguing. It is easier to protect an embryo because it is smaller and more resistant to the forces applied to it. Embryos are very small - especially at the early stages then they consist of only a few cells. Mind you, the support equipment could be a problem.

In space the problems would be with acceleration and deceleration, of which the "animals from a building" are extreme cases of. A smaller object (embryos are extremeny small) would be more cohesive and resistant to these forces, especially if suspended in fluid.


Question:

WHICH OF YOU SICK BASTARD TOSSED LARGE NUMBERS OF CATS, KITTENS, MICE, RATS, PEOPLE, FETUSES, BABIES AND ELEPHANTS OUT OF SEVENTH-STORY WINDOWS? I DEMAND NAMES.
...
That is all.

I'm a physicist. I only experiment on catgirls.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Despite these arguments however I still hold that throwing animals from a great height has a) little to do with size in terms of survivability and b) is a terrible analogue for G force effects. You may be qualified, but you chose a terrible example that bears very little resemblance to the actual conditions.

I would also point out that there are now a great many roller-coasters out there that expose you to more Gs than a life off in a space vessel as well as a few that do it (through careful application of curves and such, your the physicist here, not me. I'm a Chemist.) for a greater period of time.

A further point to my argument, breeds of dog that are of equal size/smaller than a domestic cat die when they fall for heights that cats survive. Likewise some big cats can survive falling from heights other smaller animals die from. Falling under gravity happens at, by definition, 1G and is mostly regulated by surface area and aerodynamics (which BTW I have a B-Tech in, long story). Acceleration out into orbit is a whole other ball game and is not a viable point of comparison.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Despite these arguments however I still hold that throwing animals from a great height has a) little to do with size in terms of survivability and b) is a terrible analogue for G force effects. You may be qualified, but you chose a terrible example that bears very little resemblance to the actual conditions.

Fair point - I agree that I could have come up with a better example, but the general relationship between mass, size and survivability against forces still holds, especially with an embryo which can be literally a few cells. This was what I was trying to illustrate.

(Note that smaller objects are inheriently more resistant to breakup - I would expect the budding kryptonian or human to become more vunerable as the term (and hence its size and mass) increases.)


I would also point out that there are now a great many roller-coasters out there that expose you to more Gs than a life off in a space vessel as well as a few that do it (through careful application of curves and such, your the physicist here, not me. I'm a Chemist.) for a greater period of time.

In the case of roller coasters the exposure is much shorter than with a spacecraft and the rider is still protected (padded seats and so on). When the Ninja opened in Six Flags over Georgia the elapsed time for the entire ride was 90 seconds. (And you still have a river of warnings about who is allowed on the ride)

Still, the same principles will hold - the smaller masses will experience much smaller forces (force = mass * acceleration). Imagine which would hurt the most on a roller coaster: A baby sitting on your knee or an adult sitting on your knee.

Actually, once out of the planet's gravity well, the spaceship only needs a small acceleration (1g would be fine to give earth-like conditions). The ship may even spend most of its time running at constant velocity (in other words, weightless). Of course, weightlessness brings its own problems, especially for adults...


A further point to my argument, breeds of dog that are of equal size/smaller than a domestic cat die when they fall for heights that cats survive. Likewise some big cats can survive falling from heights other smaller animals die from. Falling under gravity happens at, by definition, 1G and is mostly regulated by surface area and aerodynamics (which BTW I have a B-Tech in, long story). Acceleration out into orbit is a whole other ball game and is not a viable point of comparison.

I didn't intend to get into a detailed discussion about animals falling - what I wanted to illustrate was that size and mass is a major factor in things, and that was the best example I could think of (as agreed, I could have come up with a better example).

(And, as noted, I only mentioned my qualifications as I was accused of knowing "very little of science". I normally don't make an issue of it as I am usually surrounded by a large number of intellegent and knowledgable people with and without degrees)

Incidentally, and almost on a different topic, has anyone read "The Physics of Superheroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physics_of_Superheroes)"?

[Dervag]

I suggest you re-read the point I was actually arguing. It is easier to protect an embryo because it is smaller and more resistant to the forces applied to it. Embryos are very small - especially at the early stages then they consist of only a few cells. Mind you, the support equipment could be a problem.I think the support equipment would be a huge problem, big enough to make it something of a showstopper.


A further point to my argument, breeds of dog that are of equal size/smaller than a domestic cat die when they fall for heights that cats survive. Likewise some big cats can survive falling from heights other smaller animals die from. Falling under gravity happens at, by definition, 1G and is mostly regulated by surface area and aerodynamics (which BTW I have a B-Tech in, long story). Acceleration out into orbit is a whole other ball game and is not a viable point of comparison.On the falling note, it's definitely true that some animals are especially resistant to fall injuries for their size class. It's just that there is no cat-sized animal that can ever be as fall-resistant as an ant, for instance. Evolved fall resistance can only take you so far unless you evolve gliding membranes- at which point you're not really falling in the classical sense.

I agree, though, that this isn't really a relevant example. Even though I consider it interesting in its own right, it's secondary to the question of acceleration resistance and space travel.

[chiasaur11]

Lets just leave this here before someone trots out the 15 or so types of Kryptonite...

Lessee...
Jewel Kryptonite
Red Kryptonite
Blue Kryptonite
Gold Kryptonite
Kryptonite X
White Kryptonite....

[Evil DM Mark3]

You missed:
Green Kryptonite (duh)
Black Kryptonite
Anti-Kryptonite
Slow Kryptonite
Magno-Kryptonite
Bizarro Red Kryptonite
Magic Kryptonite
Pink Kryptonite

I will even tell you what they all do if anyone has that much morbid curiosity.

[The Demented One]

I will even tell you what they all do if anyone has that much morbid curiosity.
I do! Never even heard of black or magic, so I'd be curious to see how ridiculous they get. Can't be much worse than pink, though.

[TheEmerged]

I do! Never even heard of black or magic, so I'd be curious to see how ridiculous they get. Can't be much worse than pink, though.

Yes, they can :smallwink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptonite

[Evil DM Mark3]

I do!

In the order named:
Jewel Kryptonite: Lets people in the Phantom Zone (sort of alt-reality prison thing) project illusions and perform mind control into the real world.
Red Kryptonite: Pot luck. Each piece has a different effect, seemingly on each kryptonian. Only works once.
Blue Kryptonite: Bizzaro Kryptoite, hurts Bizzaros, empowers super powered Kryptonians.
Gold Kryptonite: Perminetely robs a Kryptionian of their powers. Short range. A classic fan "why don't they just..."
Kryptonite X: Filtered Kryptonite that seems to allow the transferance of kyrptonian super powers in a highly vauge way.
X Kryptonite: (Established as different) An attempted cure for Kryptonite, in fact causes temporary super powers in earth life forms. Well, mostly Supergirl'd cat.
White Kryptonite: Kills plants.
Green Kryptonite: Your kidding, right?
Black Kryptonite: Splits your personality into multiple seperate entites.
Anti-Kryptonite: Does to non-empowered Kryptonians what Kryptonite does to super powered Kryptionians (invented to fill in a plot hole as Kryptonite does nothing to non-super powered Kryptonians)
Slow Kryptonite: Does to humans what Kryptonite does to super powered Kryptonians.
Magno-Kryptonite: "Magneticly" attracted towards all things Kryptonian. Technicaly a villain made alloy, but hey.
Bizarro Red Kryptonite: Affects humans like red Kryptonite affects Kryptonians, which we pre-established was 100% random.
Magic Kryptonite: Marijuana high. Perminent until a matching piece is found and the two are put together. Made by doing magic to Kryptonite.
Pink Kryptonite: This escape from fan fic land turns straight Kryptonians gay. (Yes, yes I know. A full blown TV ulber camp gay too)

[The Demented One]

Ooh...the marijuana kryptonite may be worse than pink when it comes to ridiculousness. Close call, though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

ya gotta love the silver age

[Evil DM Mark3]

Ye. Mind you pink kryptonite is from 2003...:smallsigh:

[Manga Shoggoth]

Pink Kryptonite: This escape from fan fic land turns straight Kryptonians gay. (Yes, yes I know. A full blown TV ulber camp gay too)

Thank goodness for that! I feared something involving Barbie dolls.

Mind you, I have a small daughter. Even the fact that she has gone off pink* is not enough to purge the house of the Barbie plague.



* Apparantly blue is now in favour...

[TheEmerged]

Thank goodness for that! I feared something involving Barbie dolls.

Mind you, I have a small daughter. Even the fact that she has gone off pink* is not enough to purge the house of the Barbie plague.

From what I've seen, only a few years and a trip to Goodwill cures that one :P

[AstralFire]

This is why I will never allow the chemical bonding of spermatozoa and oocytes in my presence.

[Dervag]

Evolution in action?

[AstralFire]

Evolution in action?

Ouch. I think I have been, as the kids say, 'bizzurned'.

[Dervag]

Why evolution is selecting in favor of people who are capable of facing the threat of Barbie, I don't know.

You have to remember, evolution isn't a movement towards some superior state. It's a movement away from something that doesn't work or isn't survivable. Or, at any rate, that doesn't have kids.

[AstralFire]

Why evolution is selecting in favor of people who are capable of facing the threat of Barbie, I don't know.

You have to remember, evolution isn't a movement towards some superior state. It's a movement away from something that doesn't work or isn't survivable. Or, at any rate, that doesn't have kids.

I prefer to live on as a thought virus. All of the perks of child-bearing and none of that college stuff. Just mentor some teenager.

[Dervag]

I imagine that's hard to do to the level you'd want.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Why evolution is selecting in favor of people who are capable of facing the threat of Barbie, I don't know.

You have to remember, evolution isn't a movement towards some superior state. It's a movement away from something that doesn't work or isn't survivable. Or, at any rate, that doesn't have kids.

In evolutionary terms it's a wonder Barbie has survived this long. And we seem to be drifting off-topic again. Horribly off-topic.

[Foeofthelance]

Why evolution is selecting in favor of people who are capable of facing the threat of Barbie, I don't know.

1) Barbie brings on the Flood of Pink
2) The Flood of Pink has been known to drive otherwise sane parents psychotic
3) Psychotic parents do lethal things to little girls
4) Dead little girls don't turn into big girls capable of procreation
5) Barbie causes the extinction of the species

Thus parents who are capable of tolerating Barbie, at least until the little girl grows out of that phase (On a sidenote, experiments have proven conclusive that nothing is better at beating down Barbie Addiction than New Series Doctor Who) are necessary for maintaining the species. Similar in nature, I guess, to those who were capable of out running the things trying to eat them being the ones who survived to spawn.