Graysky City population drop

[Alex Warlorn]

Okay, we saw two people get killed in the same panel when our air elemental entered the city. And she ran into another murder right after. And there was a mage who made a business on death in the city.

Just one question, how the heck have this city not murdered itself out of existence?

The Drow at least have the excuse of their deity having the clergy take a personal step in whenever the Drow back stabby nature gets a little TOO out of hand.

The place clearly has a rep for being crime ridden, dangerous, and unhealthy. So I don't see anyone moving there tra-la-la. Also, it not likely near any international borders, so it's not likely a dumping ground for refugees or illegal immigrants.

Another question is how the police exist at all. They're clearly as effective as a snow ball in a blast furnace, all they seem to do so far are stand around like store dummies and look the other way when someone slips them a coin. Wouldn't it be simpler to just kill them all? I doubt anyone would be brave enough to fill in their shoes.

So the question is this, in a place that's so murder happy, how has it's population kept from dropping down to zero?

It's as much a safe haven for outcasts as a spiked pit so I don't see anyone moving there to hide from the world.

"Let's jump in this spiked pit, no one would ever be stupid enough to look for us in there!"

Haley has said she's robbed the castle three times, and likely so has every other thief in the city, how is there any loot left at all? No one successful enough to have money worth stealing would be dumb enough to move to an awful city like this. Even those who make a fortune illegally can't trust this city because any guards they'd hire would quite so after as their buddies started dropping like flies when they took two steps outside the estate for a breath of fresh air. And any guards you hired from the local population are more likely than not are going to kill you in your sleep and steal the fortune they've been hired to protect their first night on the job!

How can a city with no effective police force, and where there are more people out to steal (usually by killin' the guy then going through their pockets) then there are people to steal from survive at all?

I don't WANT to think about what would happen to any child who miracle of miracles managed to live long enough to learn the ABC in this city. I'm wondering how Harley ended up with an even remotely (and it is remotely) good alignment in a city like this. How'd she end up not being sold into the local Girl Market?

[David Argall]

Well, the actual ancient city was a population sinkhole. Despite the constant movement of excess peasants to the city, the city population didn't grow at all. People just died in droves.
Now in reality, the main cause was disease, but in D&D terms, that is dull. Much better for game purposes if they die in various violent ways instead. So we make all those disease deaths violent deaths, and we have Greysky city, which does not shrink despite all those killings.



Haley has said she's robbed the castle three times, and likely so has every other thief in the city, how is there any loot left at all?
Haley had only robbed it twice, in 6-7 years, and she was rated as one of the most productive thieves in the guild. So there weren't that many additional robberies. That is still quite a high robbery rate, but not high enough to make the town unlivable.

[JohnnyPsycho]

I think Greysky is probably not as "murder happy" as the one panel you see in the strip shows... Celia just happened to wander upon a very shady part of a very tough town (think the fantasy version of Compton), and she happened to do this at night.

If you know anything about modern inner cities, there's always at least a few "rough" areas where there's a disproportionate amount of poverty and crime. Hell, New York City gets lots of flack for its inner city crime, but that doesn't stop people from immigrating there... Greysky's like most cities, an economic center that likely lures in folks from surrounding areas looking for more employment opportunities, only to end up in some dump in the "ghetto" and having to scrape by with menial labor or doing some skullduggery to survive.

And let's not forget the influence of any local Thieve's Guilds, which would ensure a certain amount of "control" over the crime of the city. As odd as it sounds, most organized crime tends to keep general anarchy in check by exerting a controlling interest in criminal enterprises...

[kabbor]

author.hat("pedant")="ON";

There was only one murder in the first panel: the other was merely an armed robbery.

author.hat()="OFF"

[slayerx]

Another question is how the police exist at all. They're clearly as effective as a snow ball in a blast furnace, all they seem to do so far are stand around like store dummies and look the other way when someone slips them a coin. Wouldn't it be simpler to just kill them all? I doubt anyone would be brave enough to fill in their shoes.

Why don't they just kill the cops? perhaps maybe because the cops are too tough to kill. If you give the cops coin, they'll leave ya alone and let you do what you want... you try to mess with them though and they'll come down hard on you... Just because the cops stand around and turn a blind eye to crime doesn't mean they aren't CAPABLE of stopping the crime if they wanted to


So the question is this, in a place that's so murder happy, how has it's population kept from dropping down to zero?

It's as much a safe haven for outcasts as a spiked pit so I don't see anyone moving there to hide from the world.

"Let's jump in this spiked pit, no one would ever be stupid enough to look for us in there!"

One method... really, really, really cheap housing and such... homes out there are bound to be dirt cheap, and if the poor can't afford anything better, they'll take whatever they can get... frankly, when it comes down to it, no one ever CHOOSES to live in places like this, they just wind up there (it's a sad fact of life)... you could ask the same thing about countries in the real world

and lowlives and outcasts could still come to that city; without the local law to help pursuers, looking for someone in that city is like looking for a needle in a hay stack. And if you are such a lowlife, then you probably know how to keep yourself alive and where you maybe able to hook up with "new friends"... it's less like jumping into a spike pitt and more like running into a dangerous jungle... if you really know what you're doing you can keep yourself from getting eaten; and those who would want to find you, never will



Haley has said she's robbed the castle three times, and likely so has every other thief in the city, how is there any loot left at all? No one successful enough to have money worth stealing would be dumb enough to move to an awful city like this. Even those who make a fortune illegally can't trust this city because any guards they'd hire would quite so after as their buddies started dropping like flies when they took two steps outside the estate for a breath of fresh air. And any guards you hired from the local population are more likely than not are going to kill you in your sleep and steal the fortune they've been hired to protect their first night on the job!

What makes you think other thieves we're nearly as successful... that castle happens to be owned by a guy who makes golems, contructs that do not know the value of money, fear, or pain... And then are always traps; depending on how much you spend will determine what level rouge you need to be to detect and disarm such a trap... surely many theives have found themselves being added to the wizards collection

And good guards can be found... afterall, working for a rich guy has quite a few perks... like say, knowing that living under his care you have less of a chance of getting stabbed in you're sleep; stealing from you're boss doesn't mean much if you get killed the next night. In such a dangerous environment, the lowlives will find ways to work together to make sure they stay alive... Why do you think gangs are often formed? you can do more damage as a group and it's also harder to get caught when you have "friends"... in such places criminals would get together and form an uneasy trust to keep themselves alive; you watch my back, i'll watch yours and no body gets stabbed... you stab my back, and everyone else will stab yours

[yanmaodao]

Well, the alley stabbing in the first Greysky City panel I think was just a setting example of "Kicking the Dog". It was put there facetiously to signify "this is a bad, hardcore place" to the reader, and to extrapolate from that to some sort of mathematical population decay model, I think, misses the point. :smallsmile:

[SPoD]

The fact that the guy who killed his brother has to find a way to dispose of the corpse AT ALL instead of just dumping it wherever indicates that there is some level of authority, and likely only the rich and powerful are capable of bribing the cops. The police could be extremely powerful, prosecuting all criminals who can't pay their fees. Likewise, we have evidence from On the Origin of PCs that the Thieves' Guild does not allow people to steal if they're not members, forcing them to "police" the city for non-member thieves.

In addition, it is likely that Greysky City has an overt Evil alignment, and people flock to the city with dreams of being the stabber instead of the stabee. Your model assumes that most people who would move to any city want a peaceful life free of violence and crime, but that's not necessarily the case in a D&D world. There are oodles of people who openly self-identify as being Evil, something that is pretty rare in our world. Greysky City is obviously a haven for thieves, criminals, necromancers, warlocks, and other Evil characters who get run out of Azure City and Cliffport. The guy getting killed in that panel is all in black; we may be looking at a thief-on-thief killing instead of just murder of an innocent...assuming that there are any innocent people here at all.

[herrhauptmann]

Might as well make the same argument for Skullport and Starmantle in Faerun.

Then let's not forget Zhentil Keep. A theocratic city-state, regularly embarks on massive wars (with religious overtones) against the Dales, particularly Shadowdale. I think at one point, the city lost 3 major battles in 5 years (well over 10,000 in each invading army, and most of the army dies each time). Then just a few short years later (all the while under the murderous rule of Cyric), the city is sacked by giants, dragons, and monstrous humanoids. How is that city even capable of being called a city at this point.

The answer for all of these, it's fantasy. It can work because the author says it'll work. And so long as nothing is too over the top, not many people complain because their suspension of disbelief isn't stretched.

EDIT: Anyway, I try not to ask those myself those questions. It just gives me heartburn

[NENAD]

Okay, we saw two people get killed in the same panel when our air elemental entered the city. And she ran into another murder right after. And there was a mage who made a business on death in the city.

The mage was also paying pretty cheap prices, implying that the demand for bodies was fairly low and the supply fairly high, but not to the point where bodies are lying on the streets free for the taking.


Just one question, how the heck have this city not murdered itself out of existence?

As David Argall said, in D&D, death by disease is shockingly uncommon. Death by murder is actually the only way to keep your cities population stable (short of regularly making war on neighboring cities or preventing people from moving in).


The Drow at least have the excuse of their deity having the clergy take a personal step in whenever the Drow back stabby nature gets a little TOO out of hand.

The Thieves' Guild does the same thing for Greysky.


The place clearly has a rep for being crime ridden, dangerous, and unhealthy. So I don't see anyone moving there tra-la-la.

If there are entire nations composed of almost nothing but evil people in D&D, one city isn't too far fetched.


Also, it not likely near any international borders, so it's not likely a dumping ground for refugees or illegal immigrants.

Another question is how the police exist at all. They're clearly as effective as a snow ball in a blast furnace, all they seem to do so far are stand around like store dummies and look the other way when someone slips them a coin. Wouldn't it be simpler to just kill them all? I doubt anyone would be brave enough to fill in their shoes.

Given the potential for massive gaps in power in D&D (i.e. in real life the strongest and best equipped of warriors could be killed if he was rushed by twenty barely trained militiamen, but in D&D, it would take hundreds), it's quite possible that killing the cops would depopulate the city far more than any ongoing murder problems.


So the question is this, in a place that's so murder happy, how has it's population kept from dropping down to zero?

It's as much a safe haven for outcasts as a spiked pit so I don't see anyone moving there to hide from the world.

"Let's jump in this spiked pit, no one would ever be stupid enough to look for us in there!"

Eh, just watch your back and lay low, you'll be fine. The guy who killed his brother killed him because he was trying to rob his shed. The guy who knifed the unnamed citizen in the alley likely had a similar provocation of some kind. I'm guessing you don't rob or kill someone on the fly in this place. You do it as part of the Thieves Guild or else you do it for personal reasons.


Haley has said she's robbed the castle three times, and likely so has every other thief in the city, how is there any loot left at all? No one successful enough to have money worth stealing would be dumb enough to move to an awful city like this. Even those who make a fortune illegally can't trust this city because any guards they'd hire would quite so after as their buddies started dropping like flies when they took two steps outside the estate for a breath of fresh air. And any guards you hired from the local population are more likely than not are going to kill you in your sleep and steal the fortune they've been hired to protect their first night on the job!

Golems have an odd tendency to be immune to greed. They're funny that way.


How can a city with no effective police force, and where there are more people out to steal (usually by killin' the guy then going through their pockets) then there are people to steal from survive at all?

But there is an effective police force; the Thieves Guild. They, like the mafia, will make sure places don't get robbed too often to be profitable, thus maintaining a steady stream of profit.


I don't WANT to think about what would happen to any child who miracle of miracles managed to live long enough to learn the ABC in this city. I'm wondering how Harley ended up with an even remotely (and it is remotely) good alignment in a city like this. How'd she end up not being sold into the local Girl Market?

That's...A good question. Maybe they needed thieves more than whores?

[David Argall]

Of course, it is by no means certain Haley wasn't a whore at some point. We know she is distinctly experienced. NCPB The expansion strips include a unicorm busting a gut laughing at the idea of Haley as a maiden of pure intent. and there is the idea of the whore with the heart of gold to cover her good alignment.

[Liwen]

I have two words for Greysky City :

Liberty City

In GTA IV, I've run over 4000 people, killed twice has much and made about 500 verious vehicules explode. Yet, even though this represent about maybe half the population of this virtual city, I still find people to kill.

Unlimited respawns?

[Linkavitch]

They breed like rabbits! No, seriously...I have no idea, though maybe those murderers and robbers and stuff all were being paid by Xykon to start robbing and looting, and before that, the city was peaceful?:smallconfused:

[mikeejimbo]

My theory is that it doesn't make sense because the city is a metaphor, or perhaps even allegory, of the dark hearts of man.

[Fighteer]

Well, the alley stabbing in the first Greysky City panel I think was just a setting example of "Kicking the Dog". It was put there facetiously to signify "this is a bad, hardcore place" to the reader, and to extrapolate from that to some sort of mathematical population decay model, I think, misses the point. :smallsmile:
I agree. With limited space in each strip, it's necessary to depict the depravity/villainy/corruption of Greysky City in as few panels as possible. Celia's stubborn naivete wouldn't be nearly as absurd set against a backdrop where nothing overtly bad was going on. I also like the point made by David Argall, which is that D&D cities need some way to dispose of all of the people that don't constantly die to disease like they did in real medieval cities. One good solution is to wall off the "bad parts" of town and let the thieves, whores, pushers, and paupers kill each other off.

On a slight literary diversion, think of all the fictional stories that have city scenes and/or settings. It's almost a universal trope for a protagonist or major character to be confronted by an attempted robbery/assassination/extortion within minutes or hours of entering the city, no matter that the probability of this occuring for any particular individual is very low. Plus, in a city with even a moderately strong governing body (whether it's legitimate or not), the authorities are usually aware that too much crime against visitors will discourage people from coming to the city, thus depriving them of future trade and/or victims (depending on who's in charge).

[EyethatBinds]

Just look at Detroit, about 600 people are murdered a year in the city. Walking alone in the tough neighborhoods can get you killed as can wearing certain colors, saying certain words, or looking at people.

Greysky seems pretty realistic to me.

[Jade_Tarem]

The comments about the police force remind me of the ISSP from Cowboy Bebop. Corrupt as all hell, but they could deal a very heavy blow to all the organized crime going on if they wanted to, so the criminal organizations out there tried to keep things relatively low-key (except when they didn't, in which case Spike had to come and start with the beat downs) and appease the ISSP with money and other stuff. And they did still fight disorganized crime, and set bounties.

[krossbow]

Simple answer:

Poor people mate REALLY REALLY fast. Seriously. Its why third world countries, despite being disease ridden hell holes with high crime rates and histories of war and civil unrest continue to burst at the seams, while incredibly clean and healthy ones like japan are actually struggling to maintain a non-negative population.
Age old addage, " the rich get richer, and the poor get children."




Also, the police are probably pretty tough customers. They probably act like a protection agency, looking the other way for those with money but coming down hard on those without it. And they're probably significantly high level.

[AceOfFools]

Simple answer:

Poor people mate REALLY REALLY fast. Seriously. Its why third world countries, despite being disease ridden hell holes with high crime rates and histories of war and civil unrest continue to burst at the seams, while incredibly clean and healthy ones like japan are actually struggling to maintain a non-negative population.
Age old addage, " the rich get richer, and the poor get children."




Also, the police are probably pretty tough customers. They probably act like a protection agency, looking the other way for those with money but coming down hard on those without it. And they're probably significantly high level.

Your example amuses me.

Japan is bursting at the seems in terms of population density, and whatever their population growth rate is, I'm pretty sure they aren't in danger of having a negative population in the near future.

Point is valid, example hilarious.

[brilliantlight]

Your example amuses me.

Japan is bursting at the seems in terms of population density, and whatever their population growth rate is, I'm pretty sure they aren't in danger of having a negative population in the near future.

Point is valid, example hilarious.

Wrong, Japan's population growth rate is ALREADY negative.http://indexmundi.com/japan/population_growth_rate.html

[JohnnyPsycho]

Wrong, Japan's population growth rate is ALREADY negative.http://indexmundi.com/japan/population_growth_rate.html

I think what he was getting at was the wording of the previous post:
...japan [is] actually struggling to maintain a non-negative population.

Not "japan is struggling to maintain a non-negative popluation growth", but a "non-negative population.(PERIOD)"

Again, it will be a very, very long time before a theoretical time when Japan's population could be calculated as a negative number.

My brain hurts just trying to figure out how a country's population can even be calculated in values less than zero... Sure would confuse the tourists, I suppose.

"Now entering Tokyo. Population: -12,000,000"

Unless you count ghosts or zombies as a negative unit in calculating population size...

sorry, I'm rambling again...