Need help choosing an MMORPG

[Stormthorn]

This thread is what it says on the tin.

I triend WoW and found it fun. Then they started releasing expansions. Seeing as how in a few years of owning it i had only manged to get a character to about level 35, i wasnt too happy about having the bar raised.

So, im looking for a new one to try.

I was thinking of perhaps Guild Wars, Tabula Rasa, the DnD online game, or Age of Conan.

I dont know which one to go with, however.

My primary focuses are as follows. How easy it is to reach the level cap. How much i can explore the game world. How much i can customize my character. The number of classes available.

Wow had a big game world and lots of items, but all the caped people had one of a few sets depending upon class. It also had its players split over two completly seperate warring forever-factions, making worlds travel difficult. WoW also had a hard-to-reach level cap for my play style.

[The Evil Thing]

EVE will answer none of your questions by virtue of having no character classes, no level cap and a completely explorable world (although you'll probably die if you don't act sensibly).

Strictly speaking you can customise your character's appearance but that's about it beyond having an expansive skill system that makes two identical characters almost impossible.

If fantasy RPGs are your thing then I can't help beyond say that I've got quite a few friends who play Guild Wars and the lack of subscription fees means that the company are getting enough players to manage without. They must be doing something right.

[Stormthorn]

If fantasy RPGs are your thing then I can't help beyond say that I've got quite a few friends who play Guild Wars and the lack of subscription fees means that the company are getting enough players to manage without. They must be doing something right.

I think the subscription fee for other MMORPGs is less about needing the money to maintain it and more about being very greedy.


Eve has no level cap. Thats bad. It means i could play forever and never be as good as the guy who joined one day before me. I tend to avoid games like that because of the huge advantage it gives to people who show up first. On the other end of the spectrum, i low level cap means the older people will just have more money to fool around with. (and, if they are good at the game, more knowledge of how to play)

[Tom_Violence]

Eve has no level cap. Thats bad. It means i could play forever and never be as good as the guy who joined one day before me. I tend to avoid games like that because of the huge advantage it gives to people who show up first. On the other end of the spectrum, i low level cap means the older people will just have more money to fool around with. (and, if they are good at the game, more knowledge of how to play)

This is a gross misunderstanding of the system. Sadly, I don't have time right now to explain why, but trust me - don't write off EVE just cos of that, cos that's really not how it goes.

[Dairun Cates]

Well, ignoring the obvious choices you mentioned, you can go outside the box and try something free. It sounds like you're frustrated by the competitive nature of most MMO's. So, I'd present a couple of options.

Free MMO's from Asia: They're just a bit silly and most of them are horribly grindtastic (like Maple Story), but there's a few solid gems in there. Dream of Mirror Online is a very solid game by itself. It has a continuing plot, a LOT of side-quests, and like Final Fantasy Online, you can level up multiple classes and gain skills from all of them. I think there's 10 classes implemented right now, and you can take sub-skills in any other class you've leveled. While most people have similar builds, it's really easy to do something different. The world is fairly pretty, and you can fly. Also, the pay-to-play bonuses aren't so game-breaking that you can't be good without them. Trickster and Grand Chase are also decently solid.

Free Text-based games: This category has quite a few good ones, but you need to know where to look. Kingdom of Loathing is one of the most famous one of these. The game is full of nothing but hilarious references, and EVERYONE hits high level eventually. The game's easy, fun, and non-competitive unless you REALLY want on the high score board. The community is strong, and it would take YEARS to see all the hilarious content. If you're a nerd, there's some joke specially tailored for you in there. The donation content is powerful, but since you're generally not fighting other players, there's nothing that will kill you in the end. The unfortunate side-effect IS that you only get so many turns a day (not counting bonuses, food, and booze). So, at the beginning, you'll find yourself waiting for rollover a lot, but as you get further in, you'll find that it'll take quite a while to spend your turns, and since they keep adding up from day to day until they hit 200, you'll probably have some turns to spend on some days. Besides, if you get bored, you can make a second character... or a third... or a fourth...

There's also Billy vs. Snakeman, a solid anime parody game in a similar vein to KoL. There's actually a village with quite a few OOTS members in it.

Finally, I don't know if they exist anymore, but there's also Nexus war. The entire thing is oddly a PvP game, but it manages to work out well. Weird fun.

Last Resort: MUDs and MOOs: Yes. These still exist and some of them are amazing. MUDs are pretty much like text-based MMOs. They vary wildly in content. Why would you want to play one? Well, due to the structure of MUDs, you have a bigger tendency to develop a culture and politics in a city. When you get into a good one of these, it can feel more immersive than any graphical MMO ever was. There's a lot of sites on the more popular of these, and hell, your reading and typing speeds will sky-rocket. Tough to get into, but amazing when you get a good one.

I personally recommend the Discworld MUD. It's an LP mud. So, you level up skills by using them a lot. It's very organic, and the community is immense. If Garwain's/Dragonraces mud still existed, I'd definitely recommend that one, but I think they're dead.

Other than that, I'd point out that City of Heroes has a system for temporarily powering up allies so they're not useless to high level friends. So, if you're worried about being left behind, that's an option. Guild Wars is solid, but it's very limited in options. Also, there's not a hell of a lot of people on. Age of Conan is supposed to be excellent. I don't know anything more than that.

[Stormthorn]

From my understanding of Eve, skills develope in real time. This is from their own website (i briefly considered the game). So yes, joining a day before puts someone forever ahead of me.

I like the worlds and the option of player interaction. I dont like it when i reach a point (as i did in WoW) where if i want to continue to meaningfully advance my character i have to join a group of players. I dont like to be forced into being social.

I have yet to find a single-player RPG with a world big enough and dynamic enough to satisfy me. That, and the occasional need for social play, is what drives me to find an MMO.


Last Resort: MUDs and MOOs: Yes. These still exist and some of them are amazing. MUDs are pretty much like text-based MMOs. They vary wildly in content. Why would you want to play one? Well, due to the structure of MUDs, you have a bigger tendency to develop a culture and politics in a city. When you get into a good one of these, it can feel more immersive than any graphical MMO ever was. There's a lot of sites on the more popular of these, and hell, your reading and typing speeds will sky-rocket. Tough to get into, but amazing when you get a good one.

Text? Text is bad. I played a text-based adventure game once. I had to type in the direction i wanted to step. the direction i wanted to look. And anyhting else i wanted the character to do. Look West. Go West. Pickup Wrench. Examine Wrench. Use wrench on pipe.
Sucks.

I did play KoL for a time.

[illyrus]

I'm not going to say Eve is right for you, but on the skill thing I'll go into a bit of depth.

Let's say I want to be the best heavy assault cruiser pilot ever. There are a finite amount of skills for this that take a finite amount of time (skills only train to level 5). So given x time I can be just as good of a heavy assault cruiser pilot as some guy that has been playing from day 1. Now if I suddenly decided that I wanted to pilot a heavy assault cruiser with a different loadout I might need to skillup in other skills to make it happen, or I might be just fine where I'm at.

The longer the person plays the more things they can be good or excellent at and there is really not an upper limit to the breadth of skills (while finite it is realistically beyond what any one character can reach). However in any one thing there is a cap on the depth you can go.

Also while there is a difference for the skills, it's not as sizable as one might think. Having rank 4 in small hybrid turrets would give a 20% damage bonus and take about 2 days to train from no ranks in the skill. Having rank 5 in small hybrid turrets would give a 25% damage bonus and might take 9 days to train from having no ranks in the skill.

Note: What I'm saying is about 95% right imo. The last 5% is due to simplification.

[Poison_Fish]

From my understanding of Eve, skills develope in real time. This is from their own website (i briefly considered the game). So yes, joining a day before puts someone forever ahead of me.

I like the worlds and the option of player interaction. I dont like it when i reach a point (as i did in WoW) where if i want to continue to meaningfully advance my character i have to join a group of players. I dont like to be forced into being social.

Forced being social? And you want an MMO? That seems odd.

[Tom_Violence]

Forced being social? And you want an MMO? That seems odd.

I can understand that. Sometimes one wants to play the game without having to join up with people, especially if the **** ratio is quite high.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you don't like being sociable but want an MMO, play Oblivion or Morrowind. You won't notice the differance. :smallbiggrin:

If you do want to be sociable just play NWN, all the noobs have left and it usually devolves into everyone sitting around in a bar doing nothing.

[Stormthorn]

If you don't like being sociable but want an MMO, play Oblivion or Morrowind. You won't notice the differance.

Thats the point. I like the social interaction in the cities and stuff in MMOs, but i dont like it when i hit a wall and cant do any quests or go into any dungeons without a small army of other players. Heck, i even PvP, but i dont like being forced into it.

And i do play both of those games. I love em, but would prefer other people. NPCs just dont do enough or have enough to say.

[Dairun Cates]

Text? Text is bad. I played a text-based adventure game once. I had to type in the direction i wanted to step. the direction i wanted to look. And anyhting else i wanted the character to do. Look West. Go West. Pickup Wrench. Examine Wrench. Use wrench on pipe.
Sucks.

Honestly, it's just trading one poison for another. Instead of mindless grinding and ridiculous keystrokes, you have to read and type directions. After a few days practice, you manage to be able to do it without thinking. Besides, most modern MUDs allow macros and alternate key setups to do those things automatically. It's not the easiest thing to get into, but if you find the right MUD the atmosphere can be really fun.

[Tirian]

Thats the point. I like the social interaction in the cities and stuff in MMOs, but i dont like it when i hit a wall and cant do any quests or go into any dungeons without a small army of other players. Heck, i even PvP, but i dont like being forced into it.

And i do play both of those games. I love em, but would prefer other people. NPCs just dont do enough or have enough to say.

Diablo 2 is in the middle; you can control your multiplayer exposure depending on your ability to find other players with a similar level and mindset.

I'm at the point with MMORPGs that I don't care about classes or level caps or even fees. I just want to know how the game engine mitigates griefers and lamers, because when 10% of a server's population have the will and means to lower my enjoyment of the game they usually succeed.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Wait for Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning I say. :smallwink: Its set for release september 23.

Not sure how long it will actually take to level, but the cap will start only at 40. There will be 20 classes, and 2 factions, each with 3 races. Its also very PvP based, if you like that sort of thing, didn't see anything about that in your OP.

If you want to learn more about WAR, heres their site (http://www.warhammeronline.com/), and heres a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85156) I made about it here.

[Erloas]

Well I would vote against Age of Conan at this time, despite being released for two months or so now it is not really close to actually being finished yet.

I haven't tried it but I've heard EQ2 has come a long ways since release, though I don't know how that falls into what you want.

D&DO I played for a while and it was kind of fun but not great. It is highly instanced, which I don't care for, and virtually every part of the game requires a group to get through. Because of that, at least from what I've heard lately, it has a very good community. One of the biggest issues I heard about it at first was the limited levels and that it didn't take long enough to cap out, though I don't know if that has changes either.

Can't say much about Tabula Rasa or Guild Wars.

I liked LOTRO more then I liked WoW, but that doesn't necessarily say a huge amount. I've heard the community has gotten a lot better then it was when I played it, near release when it had a lot of temporary players. Which was really my biggest problem with the game at the time, I never really found a good group of people I would see regularly and any MMO without a good community (even if it is just guild localized community) looses a lot. If you don't like playing with other people then MMOs aren't for you. However there is a very good possibility that you would very much enjoy playing with other people if those people come from a good community. Coming from WoW though I can see where being forced to play with other people could seem like a very bad thing.
It also has a very good world, all of which is explorable, but very much in a level progression sort of way. LOTRO has very casual friendly lower levels, but, at least when I played it, required grouping once you got into the mid levels. The instances where interesting but they did require a decent amount of time to do.


I would also say look out for WAR, but we're still at least a few months from release. There is no offical release date, the September 23rd date that is floating around is just the date some retail sites have choosen since they can't list things without a release date, even if the date is wrong. It is PvP based though and that alone pretty much necessitates the need for grouping. We'll have to see how it goes, but I couldn't see most PvP situations going well for someone trying to solo the whole time. The level cap is supposed to be relatively easy to reach, but the game is designed to have big things to do for all level ranges and not just putting all of the interesting things as "end game" only. The design goals have always been for casual friendly and high levels of character custimization. We'll have to wait for release to see how well they hit those goals though.

[Toastkart]

I'd say Guild Wars. No monthly fee is a big plus, as you can pick up and play whenever you want without having to worry about playing enough to get your money's worth.

The level cap is 20, and while it does take a little while to reach 20 in Prophecies (the first campaign), it's faster to reach it in Factions and Nightfall. The important thing to note is that no matter what campaign you're in, you'll reach max level before you're halfway through the missions.

The game is split up into missions and quests following a storyline, each campaign has its own storyline. There's also an expansion, Eye of the North, which can be entered into from any campaign once you reach level 10.

All the areas are instanced, so you don't have to worry about some idiot spawn camping a particular mob that you need to kill for a quest. You do need to group almost everywhere you go, but you don't have to group with other people. You can hire AI controlled henchmen to help out, and Nightfall and Eye of the North introduced Heroes, which are kind of like henchmen but better. So you can essentially go solo whenever you want. There are only a few elite areas after you've beaten the campaign that don't allow henchmen but do allow heroes, so these are the only places where you're forced to find other players to group with. Otherwise you can group with people whenever you want.

Another thing I like about Guild Wars is that, unlike most mmos, it is more focused on the story than others are. Now granted, it isn't as deep a story as some single player games get, but I think it's better than most mmos. Maybe that's just me. The game is also much more skill based. Picking a build that suits you is often much more effective than the cookie cutter builds.

[Tengu_temp]

I agree with Guild Wars - I haven't played it myself, but know enough of it to deduct that from what you've described about your tastes, it should be a game for you. Everything what Evrine said is true, and while it's a game that bases on teams, you are not forced to play with other players as you can hire NPCs and play through the whole game solo.

[Stormthorn]

Another thing I like about Guild Wars is that, unlike most mmos, it is more focused on the story than others are.

Now that i like. So, how is the clas spread and character customization?

[Ryshan Ynrith]

6 core classes, +2 for each of the two campaigns. Basic classes are Warrior (uses Adrenaline mainly, has heavy armor, skills with sword/axe/hammer), Ranger (energy and medium armor, uses mostly bows and has a pet), Monk (mostly healing, light armor), necromancer (light armor, minions or cursing), Elementalist (uses elemental spells for damage and the like, cloth), and the Mesmer (light armor, lots of tricksy little spells. Also, they can make anything you do cost you in life and energy). You can customize height, hair, and facial features for a character at creation, and (one of the better features) top-level gear is easy to get. However, the more unusual skins become more and more difficult-the standard 1.5 platinum/piece armor is as protective as the very expensive 15plat/piece armor, but the 15k armor is generally more unique looking.

The expansions introduce the dervish and paragon (Nightfall) and the assassin and ritualist (Factions).

You may only equip 8 skills at a time, but you can change them freely when in towns, along with their depending attributes. Also, you can choose a secondary class (easily changed in the later game) which you can pull skills and attributes from. HOwever, you always wear the gear appropriate to your primary class, which determiens your energy regeneration and physical toughness. The result is that a Wa/Mo is much different in use than a Mo/Wa.

It's a fun game...I eventually grew tired of it, as the endgame content can be finished quickly and I'm not a fan of PVP, but not before I had all the expansions and a max level of every class. If you like PVP, the endgame is very balanced and potentially endless, due to the skill and secondary profession system.

[factotum]

I like the worlds and the option of player interaction. I dont like it when i reach a point (as i did in WoW) where if i want to continue to meaningfully advance my character i have to join a group of players. I dont like to be forced into being social.


I never had that problem in WoW. I did do some raiding in a guild, but 99% of my character advancement to level 60 was solo. You just have to find the right places to grind and the right quests to do, and you can reach the level cap without ever having joined a party with another player. (That was certainly true in classic WoW with the 60 level cap, anyway--don't know if the expansion changed that at all). Of course, you won't have the best equipment because that's all Bind on Pickup stuff in raid dungeons, but you don't need the best equipment if you're just playing solo anyway!

[Ashen Lilies]

If you get bored of Fantasy, I'd suggest City of Heroes/City of Villains. It has a level cap of 50 and it doesn't look like it's going to get any higher. Travel is somewhat restricted somewhat by the fact that the city is cut up into zones, with players being required to take the train in between zones, but each zone is pretty big in itself, taking at least several minutes to get from point A to point B (travel powers such as flight or super speed are a must to avoid spending half your time walking:smalltongue:.) Each game has 7 classes, 5 base classes that you can create from the start an 2 'epic' classes which are available once you get at least 1 character to level 50 (making them a bit of a status symbol.) The game is sorta story based, and chronicles your character's rise from small time hero/thug to the big leagues. It is possible, depending on your powerset, to go the whole game solo, teams are only required for Taskforces(raids). Though it is helpful to bring a few guys along for certain missions, especially protector/mayhem missions. City of X has probably the most powerful character creators of all MMOs, allowing you to choose almost every detail of your costume, and you can change it whenever you want at Icon shops, also, certain costume pieces need to be unlocked (capes at lvl 20 and auras/glowing eyes at 30.)
Also, the people are really nice and are usually willing to help out, I have never seen any type of griefer at all. (though this may just represent Protector server rather than the game in general.

[The Evil Thing]

I feel I must leap to EVE's defence. Well, perhaps not leap, but at least step in. First off, the absence of a level cap. illyrus explained the concept well enough, but I'll expand on what he said a little.

Certainly, newer players have a snowball's chance in hell of catching up to me in terms of overall skillpoints (I have 41m SP) but I am most definitely a jack-of-all-trades so catching up to me in a certain area would be practically trivial. I'll try and show you why:
I have 5.8m SP in Gunnery. Most of the time I fly a missile boat so I'm not using a single one of those skillpoints (which have taken months to accumulate). On the rare occasion when I'm flying something with guns, only 2.5m will actually matter. On a similar note, someone could conceivably just train those 2.5m points and be on equal footing during a gunnery duel. I have 10m SP in Spaceship Command. Each skill affects a single class of ship so even though I trained Gallente Cruiser to level 5, the 95% of the game when I'm not using a Gallente class vessel (I was planning on using Gallente HACs (http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/heavyassaultships/gallente/12005.asp) but that idea was dropped) means that those 1.2m skillpoints are utterly useless. In some respects, newer players are already ahead of me since I am completely unable to fly any capital ship at all; I haven't even trained any Battleship skill to level 5 yet.
You get the idea? The EVE skill system is about depth and breadth, rather than height. The only advantage older players have over the newer ones is that they can do a wider variety of things. Of course, all other things being equal, fights are determined by whoever is the most skilled in real-world terms.

As for your other worry. You are at no point forced to join a corporation (guild) or whatnot. Certainly, your options are a little limited in terms of where you can go but it's perfectly feasible to enjoy mid-late game content on your own. There's mining (in high sec, of course), manufacture, research, trade and missions (quests, if you like). Missions are sometimes easier and faster to do in groups but I get by on my own just fine.

[Quincunx]

I third or fourth trying Guild Wars. If nothing else, it has a low entry cost if you just buy one expansion. My husband and I play it once a month, if that often, and don't feel like it's money wasted thanks to the lack of a subscription fee. It's also great if you get bored easily with a static character, just step into town and shuffle your skills and you can change your focus entirely. Henchmen can be morons, but they are predictable morons, which is much better than can be said of many other players. Cartography titles unlock when you explore X % of each expansion's world.

So far, the key to speedy WoW leveling has been to find a quest hub precisely matched to my current level. That meant a relative lot of travel time in between long sessions of staying in one spot for quests and kills. Going to the wrong spot just two levels early foundered me. Heck, I'm just about level with you now--but why am I typing this, the barrier isn't going to lower itself in that game.

AoC's fun comes either at the low level if you like quests which talk back at you or at the level cap if you like massive PvP battles. The stretch in between lost every single one of my friends who bought that game. DDO was chained to party formation, last I heard. Tabula Rasa. . .haven't heard much, doesn't seem to quite fit your exploratory urge, but I wouldn't cross it off the list yet.

[Revlid]

Why not wait a few months for WAR? It looks like it's treading (if not actually breaking) new ground, it's a great setting, and there appears to be stonks of content waiting to be released in patches after the game, to keep things fresh/because the developers couldn't fit my Knight of the Blazing Sun into their busy schedule, the bastards.

Plus, waiting a few months before starting a new MMO can only help your bank account.

[Pagz]

Wait for Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning I say. :smallwink: Its set for release september 23.

Not sure how long it will actually take to level, but the cap will start only at 40. There will be 20 classes, and 2 factions, each with 3 races. Its also very PvP based, if you like that sort of thing, didn't see anything about that in your OP.

If you want to learn more about WAR, heres their site (http://www.warhammeronline.com/), and heres a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85156) I made about it here.I have to second this one, it sounds like its right up the OP's ally. Whilst its very RvR, there is a strong PvE part of the game to which you can play for the entire 40 levels if you want to. Levels, from what they've said, are very easy to attain, especially considering they didn't want to put in levels in the first place, but the alpha testers complained. Its more about Renown ranks and leveling up your guild then your own character, per say. With massive raids against your opponents actual cities, It sounds like a very promising game. The customization of characters is quite large, with armour dyes and trophy's you can attach to your character (you gain trophy's by completing quests or doing certain things in game), character titles and many other things.

Look up some stuff about Warhammer Online, its looking like its going to be a blast!