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Frosty
2008-07-24, 03:53 PM
Ok, so there's someone who may join my 3.5 campaign. Problem is, he has never played 3.5. The good thing is, he's done some 4e. How should I explain 3.5 to him and what class should I start him off with? I haven't done much with 4e myself so I'm not really an expert on the differences. I'm thinking Warblade or Swordsage.

Morty
2008-07-24, 03:55 PM
Barbarian. This way, he or she can break stuff decently enough without worrying about spells, manuevers or feats.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-24, 04:02 PM
Barbarian and Rogue are best for someone new, as thew start simple and slowly add powers. Alternatively, Sorcerer is pretty easy, especially since you can help him pick spells.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 04:04 PM
I don't think keeping track of maneuvers is a big problem. It's more how I explain the paradigm shift between 3.5 and 4e.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-24, 04:05 PM
yeah, barb if he wants to fight, rogue if he wants to do stuff, sorc if he wants to cast spells.

ShellBullet
2008-07-24, 04:47 PM
Warlock can be pretty good choice also, since you don't run out of spells.

ColonelFuster
2008-07-24, 04:57 PM
Personally, I would suggest a human fighter with closely related feats. Exotic Weapon proficiency and weapon focus, for example, or two-weapon fighting tree.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 04:59 PM
Warblade. A 3E barbarian would be so damn dull after the 4E fighter...

ericgrau
2008-07-24, 05:00 PM
Barbarian has gotta be the easiest.
Sorceror only if you help him pick his spells.
Wizard only if he'll be around a long time and will want to make his own choices later. Still, help him pick his spellbook spells.
Paladin could work almost as well as barbarian. Just give him a hand on all 2-3 of his special abilities early on, and help him with spell selection later. Spell basics: CLW and utility are for wands and scrolls. Buffs are for before combat only, or maybe during combat at the beginning of a long BBEG fight.

That's it for core, but as mentioned you can mimic 4e with ToB, as it is one of the pre-cursors to 4e. But then I'd just play 4e. As for the rest...

Cleric/Druid: Heck no.
Fighter/Bard/Monk: No! I don't think even half of the experienced players know how to use these right, and unfortunately the classes get a lot of hate for it.
Ranger: The alternative to the fighter that isn't. And the effective (not-just-fighter) way to play him is more complicated to boot. No.
Rogue: No! Too complicated for most like a fighter/monk/ranger, except - like the ranger - people still play him 'cuz their image of him (even before playing) is that he's cool. And you can kinda sorta show off sometimes. And then he gets badly wounded.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 05:56 PM
Warblade. A 3E barbarian would be so damn dull after the 4E fighter...

He was asking me what what the encounter and daily-type powers for the Rogue and Fighter are. I kept trying to explain to him that all of the Rogue and Fighter's abilities in 3.5 are at-will. There's nothing spectacular he can do especailly at the lower levels. He's having a hard time getting it. I think he likes being able to shift enemies around and move them in non-magical ways in 4e and also to protect allies. Besides, Improved bullrush, there's a not a lot of non-ToB ways to do it I don't think. Maybe a Knight or Crusader?

Would it be accurate to describe ToB classes as classes that offer only Encounter powers, but you can get your Encounter powers back?

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 06:02 PM
He's having a hard time getting it. I think he likes being able to shift enemies around and move them in non-magical ways in 4e and also to protect allies.
I can see how a player used to actually being able to do stuff might not like the inability to do stuff, yes.


Would it be accurate to describe ToB classes as classes that offer only Encounter powers, but you can get your Encounter powers back?
Yes. ToB's maneuvers don't offer the kind of enemy-shoving, action-influencing.

If he wants to do what the fighter's class feature does, point him at the Stand Still feat and a reach weapon. For marking, have him use the Iron Guard's Glare stance. Some mix of Crusader and Warblade should satisfy him. The Warblade is more like an offense-oriented 4E Fighter, if multiclassing is undesireable for the first time.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 06:23 PM
Doesn't Setting Sun offer some throwing? That's kinda similar to shield-bash I guess.

I was actually thinking of having him be a Goliath Barbarian/Swordsage (or warblade, or both).

I'll tell him that he has a Daily Power that makes him one size category larger (Mountain Rage), and if he takes a feat, he *can* make enemies shift if he power attacks a bit (Knockback feat). With Powerful Build and Mountain Rage, he'll be really good at the Mighty Throws because it's a Trip attempt essentially.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 06:41 PM
Doesn't Setting Sun offer some throwing? That's kinda similar to shield-bash I guess.

I was actually thinking of having him be a Goliath Barbarian/Swordsage (or warblade, or both).

I'll tell him that he has a Daily Power that makes him one size category larger (Mountain Rage), and if he takes a feat, he *can* make enemies shift if he power attacks a bit (Knockback feat). With Powerful Build and Mountain Rage, he'll be really good at the Mighty Throws because it's a Trip attempt essentially.

That would work, yeah. Setting Sun is the closest thing to push powers.
Inform him that tactical positioning is much less of a big deal in 3E, though, except for AoO-focused builds.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-07-24, 07:26 PM
We had a new player that started off with a Bard. Worked out really well, as she wants to keep playing and try something new. It's a simple character, and easy to roleplay.

Worira
2008-07-24, 08:08 PM
There are a few Stone Dragon push powers also.

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 08:16 PM
If you have access to it, a Beguiler could be very fun for a newbie. It's got every relevant aspect of 3.5, really: it's got Sorceror-style casting, it's got many skills, it's got sneaky casting, it's got creation ability. What's more fun than Glibness and all the illusions?

Plus, they're freaking useful to the party as a whole.
I' just advise helping with the Advanced Learning slections.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 08:22 PM
What's more fun than Glibness and all the illusions?

Not turning the game into one of (a) your personal playground and (b) an arms race?

Glibness should never have been printed, and the images are far too low-level for what they can do.

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 08:26 PM
Not turning the game into one of (a) your personal playground and (b) an arms race?

Glibness should never have been printed, and the images are far too low-level for what they can do.

Okay, Glibness is broken. But it can be used in helpful ways. And as a DM, one could check it using Discern Lies when the player would try to bluff a king into believing he's the heir or something.

Besides, if the player's new to 3.5, it's not like the illusions will be heavily abused. You've got to look at them like it's your first time reading them.

And of course they're broken. They're 3.5 magic...

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 08:28 PM
Okay, Glibness is broken. But it can be used in helpful ways. And as a DM, one could check it using Discern Lies when the player would try to bluff a king into believing he's the heir or something.
Glibness has an anti-Discern Lies clause built in.

---

Glibness: +30 bluff.
Voice of the Dragon: stacking +10 Bluff.
Serene Visage: stacking +10 Bluff (at CL 20).

Epic lies are epic.

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 08:35 PM
Glibness has an anti-Discern Lies clause built in.

---

Glibness: +30 bluff.
Voice of the Dragon: stacking +10 Bluff.
Serene Visage: stacking +10 Bluff (at CL 20).

Epic lies are epic.

NEWBIE.
Newbie.

He's not gonna hit epic-level bluff by level 4 or anything.
Unless he hangs out on CharOp all the time.
Besides, as a DM, that's when you say "okay, just this once. Then I'm houseruling glibness to not stack with anything else."

It's still not useless, but it's less powerful, and if the player complains, the DM has good justification as to why. Anyone with half a brain can see that sure, it's fun to be able to tell someone that they're dead and watch them lapse into a coma, but it's silly to be able to on a whim. I'm sure he'd be reasonable enough to accept this.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 08:39 PM
NEWBIE.
Newbie.

He's not gonna hit epic-level bluff by level 4 or anything.
Unless he hangs out on CharOp all the time.
Besides, as a DM, that's when you say "okay, just this once. Then I'm houseruling glibness to not stack with anything else."

It's still not useless, but it's less powerful, and if the player complains, the DM has good justification as to why. Anyone with half a brain can see that sure, it's fun to be able to tell someone that they're dead and watch them lapse into a coma, but it's silly to be able to on a whim. I'm sure he'd be reasonable enough to accept this.

I wasn't suggesting the newbie would do this. I was just saying.

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 08:41 PM
I wasn't suggesting the newbie would do this. I was just saying.

Well, then I apologize for the harshness-ishness that my post may have put out.

Basically, any of the base classes that requires less book keeping is great for a beginner.

Druid, not so much.


Ooh, I know. Give him a CW Samurai :belkar:

Frosty
2008-07-24, 08:59 PM
He's ok with house-keeping. After all, he has played 4e. He's trying to get into the mindset of 3.5

How do I explain the difference? I don't wanna compare 4e to WoW or anything.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 09:03 PM
He's ok with house-keeping. After all, he has played 4e. He's trying to get into the mindset of 3.5

How do I explain the difference? I don't wanna compare 4e to WoW or anything.

Just explain that in 3E, rather than everybody having powers, people get the (mostly passive) class features listed. It's not that hard.

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 09:04 PM
He's ok with house-keeping. After all, he has played 4e. He's trying to get into the mindset of 3.5

How do I explain the difference? I don't wanna compare 4e to WoW or anything.

Well, for the basics, he'll need to understand Vancian casting, as well as spontaneous. Those are easy enough to explain.

Wizard/Cleric/Druid/etc "You have 4 slots of level 1 spells. If you plan to cast shield tomorrow, you're down to three. You can keep your old setup or replace it each night before resting."

Sorc "You have 6 spells to cast off this list of spells. After you cast any combination of 6, you have to wait 8 hours, usually at night, to get them back."

As far as attacks, AC, and saves, they're relatively the same. Multiclassing might be hard to grasp, as might some racials, but if he understood 4e, 3.5e will come without too much difficulty.

If he's your typical gamer, the smartish, adept learner type.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 09:24 PM
I'm currently stuck on explaining the Druid to him after he asked me about what role the Druid plays. We can't get past the point where I tell him the Druid is a Striker, a Battlefield Controller, *and* a Defender and he's asking me how a caster can do that. Then I tried explaining Wildshape/Polymorph and it all broke down.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-24, 09:37 PM
Tell him the roles don't really always apply to 3.5 classes. Fighters are far more Striker than Defender, and so are Rogues, but rogues are squishier, but make up for this because they have all the out-of-combat skills and Fightes have none.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 11:01 PM
Apparently he's not very impressed with 3.5 Fighters as Strikers. He asks how in the world are they supposed to do more than 1[W] + Str damage if there are no standard actions that allow you to smack people after a move besides a normal attack. I explained how Power Attack is like a required class feature for Fighters.

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 11:03 PM
Apparently he's not very impressed with 3.5 Fighters as Strikers. He asks how in the world are they supposed to do more than 1[W] + Str damage if there are no standard actions that allow you to smack people after a move besides a normal attack. I explained how Power Attack is like a required class feature for Fighters.

Dig up and show him the typical mounted charger who deals 5x damage on a charge with a lance, power attacking for full, with a +5 lance and other yummy buffs.

Show him those numbers, and his disenchantment should cease.

ericgrau
2008-07-24, 11:04 PM
Tell him 3.5e is not 4e. It's another rpg. He's merely under the (valid) assumption that 4e should be remotely similar to 3.5e.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 11:06 PM
Tell him 3.5e is not 4e. It's another rpg. He's merely under the (valid) assumption that 4e should be remotely similar to 3.5e.

A valid but wrong assumption? I see a lot of similarities between it and ToB and ToB works fine in 3.5, so there's gotta be some similarities right?

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 11:08 PM
A valid but wrong assumption? I see a lot of similarities between it and ToB and ToB works fine in 3.5, so there's gotta be some similarities right?

Well, ToB is widely regarded as massively more powerful than, oh, almost any other melee classes.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 11:13 PM
I was under the impression that a standard barbarian can out-fight a Warblade?

AmberVael
2008-07-24, 11:19 PM
I was under the impression that a standard barbarian can out-fight a Warblade?

I was under the impression that a twinked barbarian can outfight a twinked warblade, but I could be wrong.

What I hear of ToB is this: ToB has a good level of power naturally- more than any other melee classes. However, a class like the barbarian has more sources to draw from than ToB, and in the end they can pull out more damage if they try hard enough.

Vortling
2008-07-24, 11:23 PM
Well, ToB is widely regarded as massively more powerful than, oh, almost any other melee classes.

I'm not sure what forums you're reading, but all the ones I frequent (including this one) widely regard ToB as the best balanced melee classes in 3.5. Mind you they are much better off than the fighter so if someone considers the fighter balanced then they might get the idea that ToB is overpowered.

Also I'd like to suggest the warlock for your newbie. The boatload of at-will powers should make sense to him.

Deepblue706
2008-07-24, 11:24 PM
Warblade. A 3E barbarian would be so damn dull after the 4E fighter...

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Barbarian is good for someone new to the idea of D&D, but I think ToB is best for this kind of transition.

Frosty
2008-07-25, 12:24 AM
Well, we also want him to have a class that makes sense combined with the rest of the characters. So far, we've got 4 other players.

Warforged Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind
Changelion Factotum
Warforged Druid
Kobold Sorcerer

tyckspoon
2008-07-25, 12:50 AM
I'm not sure what forums you're reading, but all the ones I frequent (including this one) widely regard ToB as the best balanced melee classes in 3.5. Mind you they are much better off than the fighter so if someone considers the fighter balanced then they might get the idea that ToB is overpowered.


Well, he's not actually wrong- the Tome of Battle *is* much more powerful than most other melee classes. They're also balanced, because most other melee classes suck.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-25, 12:57 AM
Apparently he's not very impressed with 3.5 Fighters as Strikers. He asks how in the world are they supposed to do more than 1[W] + Str damage if there are no standard actions that allow you to smack people after a move besides a normal attack. I explained how Power Attack is like a required class feature for Fighters.

He's justifiably unimpressed--unless you go for a very specific build that quickly snaps Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, and Elusive Target into place (plus Imp. Trip), the Fighter is not an offensive powerhouse. And even if you do, you need even more pieces or anything that isn't a melee opponent screws you.

Just show him the Warblade.


Edit: ToB classes aren't so much straightforwardly more powerful as more versatile, more mobile, and with bettter defenses.

Waspinator
2008-07-25, 01:04 AM
How about Swordsage? Stone Dragon and Setting Sun would give him a lot of the battlefield-manipulating abilities that he wants through their throws and charges.

Frosty
2008-07-25, 01:32 AM
How about Swordsage? Stone Dragon and Setting Sun would give him a lot of the battlefield-manipulating abilities that he wants through their throws and charges.

I'm trying to decide between Swordsage and Warblade for him. There's already a Warblade in the party, but there's wrong with having two.


more versatile, more mobile, and with bettter defenses.
To me that screams "more powerful" (in a good way). Losing out in pure damage is not a bad trade for versatility.

Frosty
2008-07-25, 05:01 PM
Actually, WoTC can come up with a pretty good conversion for 4e and Tome of Battle type characters. He can pick the class based on what role he wants:

· Desert Wind: Striker
· Devoted Spirit: Defender or Leader (particularly the healing stances and maneuvers)
· Diamond Mind: Striker
· Iron Heart: Defender
· Setting Sun: Striker or Defender (particularly the “throw opponent” maneuvers)
· Shadow Hand: Striker
· Stone Dragon: Defender
· Tiger Claw: Striker
· White Raven: Leader

Waspinator
2008-07-25, 05:30 PM
Stone Dragon is available to both Warblades and Swordsages, but Setting Sun is not. That's why I voted for Swordsage. Also, more party variety is never a bad thing.

Eldariel
2008-07-25, 06:01 PM
Swordsage is harder to make. Oh, and don't give him a Fighter, whatever you do. My first character was a Fighter; I was avoiding combat as it was so boring. I was thinking "Role-playing game should allow me to pull the cool kinds of stunts from movies and overall whatever I can dream off" and the best I could do was shooting a bow and switching to a sword to beat up anyone getting close.

Fighter is going to bore anyone to death, even if built to not suck. Come midlevels, our semi-blaster Cleric and Wizard were doing more and they had no idea of what they were doing.


Warblade is more forgiving than Swordsage due to Uncanny Dodge, the immense HD and quite easy maneuver choices, so for a new player, it's probably the safer choice.

Swordsage requires you to know a bit more about what you're doing. Also, thanks to Warblade having 5 schools, two Warblades can cover completely different areas, especially if they PrC or multiclass later.

Frosty
2008-07-25, 06:04 PM
How long before you switched out of Fighter or killed him off for another character?

Vexxation
2008-07-25, 06:04 PM
Well, he's not actually wrong- the Tome of Battle *is* much more powerful than most other melee classes. They're also balanced, because most other melee classes suck.

Well, yeah, that's what I meant.
And, actually, what I said. That ToB classes are more powerful than the other melees.

never said it was imbalanced that that's true.

Eldariel
2008-07-25, 06:22 PM
How long before you switched out of Fighter or killed him off for another character?

I multiclassed in Wizard on level 6, went into Arcane Archer (another mistake), finally got some splatbooks, took some levels in Gish-classes and the campaign ended on level 15. As soon as I got spells and managed to steal the lion's share of the party loot, I was able to enjoy myself with a golfbag of weapons, magical abilities and spells to go with my Archery and melee (yes, I had Wraithstrike). I'm never playing a Fighter again, even though I could make one far more interesting with my present Optimization-Fu (still too boring).

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 07:08 PM
I'm never playing a Fighter again, even though I could make one far more interesting with my present Optimization-Fu (still too boring).

Not even one using the Dungeon Crasher variant? Someday, I will sneak Bobby Orr (1968-1975 NHL Best Defenseman) into a game using this. He'll have those Eberron roller skates and a quarterstaff, and I'll probably include the Boston accent. Someday...

Eldariel
2008-07-25, 07:16 PM
I could make one with a 6-level dip, but after that I'd be hurting for some Warblade-levels...badly.

Aron Times
2008-07-25, 07:27 PM
How about converting to 4E instead? It takes a lot less time to learn 4E than 3.x, even if you haven't played D&D before. The game is a lot more balanced, the players have better abilities, and combat takes a lot less time to resolve.

Fluff is ruleset-independent, anyway, so you shouldn't have too many problems converting your campaign to 4E.

EndlessWrath
2008-07-25, 11:48 PM
Tell him 3.5e is not 4e. It's another rpg. He's merely under the (valid) assumption that 4e should be remotely similar to 3.5e.

quite agreed to this comment here. 4e and 3.5 are completely different games almost.

one more thing... Any class can fill just about any roll. Some are better at certain things than others...but every class is mallable to an extent. No... Don't be childish and say "nuh uh! fighters can't be casters!"... you're right... they can't be casters... but they can be healers, tanks, dps (strikers), etc... just as any class can almost.

Back to topic...I find that having the newbie telling you what he wants to do (NOT FOCUSING ON STATS OR MECHANICS AT ALL) just rp based and the general idea of his guy... does he want a fireball slinging crazed-elf? or does he want the lone gunman style warrior with dual swords...

Apply his idea to D&D 3.5 mechanics. You can do it, there's enough classes in 3.5 that you can apply his idea to class/race/mechanics.

edit:I do not agree with comment 50... (the previous one)
You shouldn't shift gears completely just for one player... additionally 4e is brand new, it doesn't have as much variety and specific stuff. I.E. there is no druid class, and as I've looked for a way to make one-esque... i have still not found a way. this is an example... I dunno Frosty's idea of his Campaign or anything...but I figure converting the game and all the specifics into 4e is much more difficult than teaching a newbie a system it took me an hour to learn.

1 more thing to frosty, Learn by playing might help too. if you got some downtime, run a single adventure for him and a few guys or something. Most likely not related to the campaign.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-25, 11:53 PM
Apply his idea to D&D 3.5 mechanics. You can do it, there's enough classes in 3.5 that you can apply his idea to class/race/mechanics.

That doesn't address the issue, which is that he wants something fun to play *mechanically*. Running a ToB character or a 4E Fighter is a blast compared to running a Barbarian.

Frosty
2008-07-26, 12:06 AM
I just may run a small side solo adventure with him, but we first gotta figure out what class he wants.

We need the class to be fun *and* not too ridiculously difficult to learn. The question is whether something like Barbarian or something like Warblade is easier to learn for someone who is coming from 4e? We know which one is (probably) more fun.

EndlessWrath
2008-07-26, 12:08 AM
That doesn't address the issue, which is that he wants something fun to play *mechanically*. Running a ToB character or a 4E Fighter is a blast compared to running a Barbarian.

This has everything to do with the topic. You can't tell him whats fun mechanically unless you can define what he'll have fun doing. If he doesn't like playing a tank, telling him to play barbarian or fighter might not be the best decision, on the other hand if he doesn't like the complexity of magic or spells... then wizard/druid/cleric aren't as strong choices.

Step 1: find out what he thinks would be cool.
Step 2: present him with a variety of options on how to do what he wants to do.
Step 3: let him test play 1 or 2...
Step 4: Help him build a guy.

I understand he doesn't know the system... so my suggestion on that is run a dungeoncrawl. make X many characters for X many players... randomize players to characters. (draw straws, roll dice... whatever...). He'll get a chance to try out the system and see how it works without having to make his mind up on a character for your game.

Otherwise: I find having a variety of options presents the possibility for the most enjoyment by players. Warlock/sorcerer have some good choices on different builds. additionally, Warlocks are the closest to 4e characters. Explain all their spell-like-abilities are at-will abilities (including eldrich blast).

krossbow
2008-07-26, 12:11 AM
Barbarian.
It has powers that can be activated, and kicks butt.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-26, 12:12 AM
I just may run a small side solo adventure with him, but we first gotta figure out what class he wants.

We need the class to be fun *and* not too ridiculously difficult to learn. The question is whether something like Barbarian or something like Warblade is easier to learn for someone who is coming from 4e? We know which one is (probably) more fun.

Barbarians are obviously easier to learn, because they only have two modes--"walk" and "kill". The guy will just be attacking over and over, in combat. Definitely go with the Warblade; he'll have an easier time adjusting.

Edit: the only "power" the barbarian has is rage. That's it.

Frosty
2008-07-26, 12:15 AM
This has everything to do with the topic. You can't tell him whats fun mechanically unless you can define what he'll have fun doing. If he doesn't like playing a tank, telling him to play barbarian or fighter might not be the best decision, on the other hand if he doesn't like the complexity of magic or spells... then wizard/druid/cleric aren't as strong choices.

Step 1: find out what he thinks would be cool.
Step 2: present him with a variety of options on how to do what he wants to do.
Step 3: let him test play 1 or 2...
Step 4: Help him build a guy.

Well, he *did* say that he enjoyed playing a Dragonborn Warlord...a Leader type who granted cool stuff to his allies, and can breathe fire on people when he needs to.

Option #1: Dragon Shaman...but they suck.

Adumbration
2008-07-26, 12:18 AM
Option #2: Dragonfire Adept. It doesn't suck.

EndlessWrath
2008-07-26, 12:19 AM
Well, he *did* say that he enjoyed playing a Dragonborn Warlord...a Leader type who granted cool stuff to his allies, and can breathe fire on people when he needs to.

Option #1: Dragon Shaman...but they suck.

Dragonfolk is a race..dunno where i remember seeing them.

if he wants to play a buff character... Marshall is good too.

Frosty
2008-07-26, 12:20 AM
Dragonfolk is a race..dunno where i remember seeing them.

if he wants to play a buff character... Marshall is good too.

Marshall is a 3-level dip. Good base for an Aura-mancer though.

Covered In Bees
2008-07-26, 12:21 AM
The 4E Leader doesn't really exist in 3E; the best you can do is a character who passively provides bonuses.


Bard/Crusader, using Song of the White Raven (and maybe Song of the Heart, etc) comes close. Inspire Courage bonuses, and White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers for leader-y stuff.

EndlessWrath
2008-07-26, 12:23 AM
Half dragons were what I was thinking =/. +3 level adjust but some good stuff including a breathe weapon.

although i find cat-folk to be better Marshall/rogues/sorcerers/etc.

basically...anything needing good dex ac and good charisma.

SoD
2008-07-26, 12:26 AM
For simple classes:

Meatsheild: Most meatsheild classes are relatively simple. Depends on what you want, barbarian for a frenzied bezerker, fighter for someone who has training, pally for someone who wants a noble warrior.

Sneaky Bastard: Rogue for preference.

Healer: Cleric is the simplest, or, even more simple, favoured soul.

Arcanist: I'd probably say that the sorcerer is easier than the wizard.

Those are probably the easiest classes to learn. I'm not saying they're the most powerful, or the least powerful, in fact: I'm not talking about how 'good' they are, just how easy they are (I'm assuing we're starting level 1).

But it's even easier if you learn by doing. Go to the sessions, get them to help you make a character sheet, and, during play, if there's something you don't understand, ask.

Eldariel
2008-07-26, 05:52 AM
Well, he *did* say that he enjoyed playing a Dragonborn Warlord...a Leader type who granted cool stuff to his allies, and can breathe fire on people when he needs to.

Option #1: Dragon Shaman...but they suck.

This solves it. Make him a White Raven-focused Warblade. And yea, a small Bard-dip (3-4 levels to get few Bardic Music uses over the levels) for Inspire Courage (into Song of White Raven) could be coupled with this, along with some Inspire Courage-boosting abilities.

Oh yeah, and he could be a Dragonborn, only 3.5e Dragonborn's Breath Weapon sucks; they're useful for other things, but the damage of the BW is just low. Metabreath feats could be used to step it up a bit though, but the core 1d8+1d8/3 HD is horrible (on level 10, you'll have 4d8 Breath Weapon - even Fireball does more damage!). If you have Draconomicon though, picking up Quicken Breath, Maximize Breath or even Enlarge Breath (I'd go with Quicken as it doesn't take time (At all! Free Action!) to breathe then and this allows you to gain "bonus" damage from it).

Dragonborn Something (something with useful stat adjustments; that's all Dragonborn keeps. Mayhap Lesser Tiefling?) Bard 2/Warblade X (picking up 1-2 more Bard-levels at some point) picking up Quicken Breath, Song of White Raven and mayhap Dragon Wings>Improved Dragon Wings (and potentially Improved Flight - all that would cost so many feats though that it would become of questionable value) seems quite solid. Race could be something with Con-bonus or something with bonus to multiple stats.

Neanderthal is ok, Wild or Snow Elf is quite solid too, Water Halfling isn't bad and stuff like Water Orc could work too. Just something with handy bonuses; investing points to overcome the negatives will be a must. Dragonborn Water Orc could actually be amusingly awesome; +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 mentals (just invest enough in Int, Dex and Cha to overcome them; 14s should be enough so putting 6 points would do), and you'd retain your Swim-speed in addition to your Land Speed. All the other crap, like Light Sensitivity, penalties vs. Fire-creatures, bonuses vs. Fire-creatures and Darkvision would be goner. I'd definitely give it a go, and actually I think I will at some point.


But as was said, Dragonfire Adept is a decent option. Dragonborn make decent DFAs too as the Breath Weapon gives the DFA access to metabreath feats (normally they can only use Dragonfire Adept-specific feats, but Dragonborn Breath Weapon has cooldown measured in rounds, which qualifies DFA for metabreath).

Leon
2008-07-26, 07:22 AM
There's nothing spectacular he can do especailly at the lower levels.

There is plenty of spectacular things you can do at low levels - they are not something that comes from class features but from player thinking and testing the limits of your luck


Idea's
A Shapeshift Druid (Fun without the hassle of Wildshape)

A Warblade (Since he cant seem to get a grip on the idea of a Fighter without powers)

A Warmage (Point & Click Blasting at its best)

A Favored Soul (The Divine Sorcerer)

A Sorcerer (a couple of choice spells and a lot of slots = win)



The 4E Leader doesn't really exist in 3E; the best you can do is a character who passively provides bonuses.


A Leader in 3E is typically (and that is in the broadest generalisation) a PC with a High CHA, Relevent skills or just a Player who is good at taking charge and handling things

EndlessWrath
2008-07-26, 06:45 PM
They actually have "leader" classes in d&d.

the 2 that stick out right now is Marshall and Tribal WarChief.
Marshall is an aura-mancer that buffs the team with a multitude of minor auras and major auras. utilizes high charisma.

Warchief is a prestige class with few abilities... the main one is Tribal Frenzy... every odd level you gain a cumulative +2 strength for this ability.

when activated you give the total Strength bonus to all allies within 30 feet i believe. While activated however...all under this frenzy take 1damage/HD it has/turn.

so .... 10th level characters take 10dmg/round.

they're both kinda cool if he wants to try that out.... additionally there is no reason you can't make your own race for him or such. But that takes work therefore its up to you.

Deepblue706
2008-07-26, 06:58 PM
Warchanter too - fairly neat Leader-Bard (Lard?) PrC.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-27, 12:46 AM
how would you build a good marshal/ i heard they kinda suck

ericgrau
2008-07-27, 07:39 AM
They're ok, I guess, it's mostly that +X bonuses are under-rated. Given the downright abuse I've seen before by those who want a +X bonus for their own uses, it depends on finding out what your party wants a +X bonus to and building around that.

In fact, the marshall is the pre-cursor to the 4e leader (specifically the warlord, IIRC). WotC comes right out and says so right in a podcast. Other pre-cursors include the SAGA skill & defenses system and ToB & manuevers.

Frosty
2008-07-27, 01:09 PM
They're ok, but it's still a 3-level dip class.

Perhaps I will homebrew a LA +1 dragon-touched race or something that has a *good* breath weapon.

EndlessWrath
2008-07-27, 06:19 PM
Marshall isn't a class if you want to be uber strong and crazy. It's not a class for solo-play. Its a buff class, a possible diplomancer, and a definite face for the party.

You didn't ask for a strong fighter class or such. The request the player made was for a leader like class...the definition of Marshall is a combat leader. I'm not saying "Take this class!" I'm just giving you an option. Warlord was a defensive buff character that supports allies and is decent at fighting. Marshall gives Simple and Martial weapon prof and i think light & med armor prof. Additionally you get a multitude of auras and a few other things. Some of your auras are based on the class level... the minor auras give bonus's for charisma bonus...which is usually required for the face of the party.
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Idea for Dragon template thing.
+2 con, -2 Char or -2 int (up to you, Due to the circumstance of "leader" it might be better to take away int...but still up to you)
Upon 4th level, Player receives dragon breath. deals 1d6/2 levels. Upon reaching 8th level...level all d6 up to d8. Ref DC 10+1/2 you level + con mod. After using it, he must wait 1d4+1 rounds before using it again. He can choose to do 1d6/level of dmg, but doing so causes him to take half the damage directly (no save) and he must wait 2d4+2 rounds.
30ft movement speed.
gain to +2 intimidate
Low light vision 120ft.
+1 level adjust.
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thats just an idea...you're welcome to use it or not, idc.