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Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-24, 04:10 PM
Yup, another one of those threads.

So, I've been playing D&D now for a few years, and my first group was great. Polite, respectful, good amount of RP. Awesome. And I still have that group going, only I have started another group with some more friends of mine. Its been going on for a few months now, the DM chairs have alternated, and I am now back in the seat. I have dealt (or rather, have tried to ignore) with the problem players for all this time, but am seriously considering just leaving the group, but would rather go for an enjoyable game than no-game at all (fix the problem rather than run from it). I'll just refer to the problem players as player's A, B, and C. Also note that I'm not having trouble with everyone, as I have been able to get a couple players from my old group in, to help influance an enjoyable game.

Player A: Player A is a total distraction at all times. If it isnt his turn in combat, hes probally on my computer doing whatever, or something else entirely. He slows the game down constantly by doing this. I know the obvious awnser would be to shut down my computer during sessions, but I sometimes like to play some music during games through it. And even if it was off, I'm sure he would just turn it on anyway. I'm not a very confrontational person. Also, another problem with Player A is that he can never seem to keep intrest with a character for long. He has already essentially killed himself TWICE within the past 5 sessions so he could role up another character.

Player B: Player B doesn't seem to understand how fantasy works. He has a hard time imagining things he hasn't seen in a video game or on TV, and confronts me when something doesnt seem 'realistic'. For example, I have heard his negative comments when I introduced things like air-boats which fly using enchanced light wood, technology run using elemental powers, strange purple mist with zombifys the dead, etc. He is also very picky about how I run the story. I have heard him say SEVERAL times "Oh yeah, thats sooo original." He has even commented several times on how I create some creatures and their abilities (in a 4E game even!) saying things such as "Oh great, another monster the DM made up, this will be fair!" (even though not one person has died yet, unless he was Player A). He also has a tendancy to continue to bring my game down by essentially saying indirectly that his game (he was the DM before me) was so much more original than mine. For example, when I looked up a trap in the DM's guide, he commented with "I never used traps from the DM's guide in my game, cause if you do that instead of making one up, all your doing is no longer being creative." I was like WTF! His game was cliche if I ever knew one, and all he did was take base monsters from the MM. He never even stated out an NPC! ARGGGG :smallannoyed: Needless to say, player B is the one I want to punch the most.

Player C: Player C is very troublesome. He is loud, obnoxious, and agrees with everything Player B says. He is the one who tends to shout things like "That is so BS!" or "Thats some DM crap right there!". Also, he is SO loud, that whenever I even try to stand up for my game, all he does is basically repeat what he said over and over again, drowning out my voice. And even if I make an intelligent argument, all he says is "No nope, your wrong, I'm right." I am reminded of a certain family guy skit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcoumXsRdYo). :smallannoyed:

I mostly posted this to just get all of this off my chest and in writing, but would greatly appreciate any advice you guys might have.

Dairun Cates
2008-07-24, 04:15 PM
From the sounds of it, your players aren't fantasy type players. Usually this kind of boredom and rebellion is a dissatisfaction with the system and setting itself. Maybe you should try a different system for a while and see how it goes. Have trouble finding out what they're interested in? Try running a game of Risus. It's free and it's oddly telling about your player's tastes.

Either way, the point is that if the players are bored, it's your job to mix things up and change the direction of the plot. Some of my best campaigns started out horrible. For instance, I started a parody pokemon campaign with my group. It got boring. So, I added a conspiracy theory that involved extra-dimensional travel, time travel, and the fate of the very universe. The only way to save the universe? Gain all 8 Gym badges and win the league championships (The winner's trophy was a key to summoning a Dark God that had created the pokemon dimension as a nexus for all realties). After that point, it was a hoot.

arguskos
2008-07-24, 04:18 PM
My friend, I feel your pain. So much. :smallfrown: I don't have too much advice (I've actually been soliciting it myself around here, for similar, but not totally related issues), but I'd advise you to check out the thread I made about it, just to see if it helps any.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85627

Hope this helps some. Also, beatings and fire. Just saying. :smallwink:

-argus

MartinHarper
2008-07-24, 04:34 PM
Player A: Player A is a total distraction at all times. If it isnt his turn in combat, hes probally on my computer doing whatever.

Password protected screensaver. Allows music to be played. Passive aggressively stops player A using PC.

BRC
2008-07-24, 04:37 PM
I reccomend blunt force trauma.


Actually, I recommend direct confrontation out of game, try to tell them they are ruining the game for everybody else.

Frosty
2008-07-24, 04:38 PM
Player B and C should not be your friends. Ditch them.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-24, 04:40 PM
Stop being nonconfrontational with player A. Tell him that you need your computer for DM-related things (technically true, even if you never do anything with it). Challenge him to see if he can work up a lasting character that he really, really likes and then roleplay it to its fullest potential. If he agrees, he may cycle through characters even faster at first, but as long as he's really trying he'll eventually find something and stick with it. Player A can be saved.

For B and C, you need to invoke the DM class ability Summon Boot. Sorry, but if they want extremely easy to visualize gameplay and absolutely perfect game balance they need to be playing Halo, Counterstrike, or some other twitch run-and-gun game, not DnD. They'll fit in well with the majority of the other people who play online. C in particular needs a good shot to the nads and a reminder that he is never inherently correct, delivered at the same time. Players B and C cannot be salvaged.

ColonelFuster
2008-07-24, 04:53 PM
Player A: "Aidan, would you like to run this NPC battle? There's a barbarian and a sorcerer with these spells. Maybe you could just run one of them?"
Player B: "Bob, I have my own style of DMing." "Bob, I am DMing right now." "Bob, why would you say that?" "Be that as it may, that's what's happening."
Player C: "Guys, please vote, do think this is bogus? No, Charles, don't talk, let's just raise or hands. Yes, this is bogus, raise your hands. Okay, and for the no it's not votes.... Alright, Charles? You're messing with other people's enjoyment of the game. Let's get back on track."

Don't argue with people. If you get defensive, they win. If they stray away from the topic, don't listen. If all else fails, ask for the rest of the group's opinion.

DM: "Suddenly, the ground quakes and small green beetles start swarming out, exuding a noxious stench. Everyone make fortitude saves."
Bob: "Great. THIS is gonna be fair. What's the DC? 30?"
DM: "What are your guy's rolls?"
(Bob: did he just ignore me?)
They all pass, except players A and C.
Aidan: *Sighs* I die, right? If we're going to go underground, I should have a dwarf anyways.
DM: No, you just get sick to the point of inaction for a few rounds. You, too, Charles. No standard actions for 3 rounds.
Charles: ARE YOU JOKING??? NO!
Bob: Poisons don't work that way! Neither do swarms.
Charles: YEAH! I'M GONNA GO ANYWAYS!
Bob: You should, this is all jsut a rip-off of The Mummy, anyways.
Other players start to roll their eyes and become disinterested until-
DM (Loudly over the argument): The beetles suddenly start to swarm around Eric, dealing 4 damage.

Ralfarius
2008-07-24, 05:05 PM
I'm leaning towards the suggestion presented by Dairun Cates, in that maybe the genre just isn't their cup of tea and it's time to give something else a whirl.

But seriously, what you've presented about B and C is straight-up a personality cohesion disconnect. Like, I'm not gonna say that their way is totally wrong, and they're a pair of annoying jackasses not worth playing with, or even really hanging around for that matter... But there could just be a fundamental incompatibility in your tastes/personalities to make a successful game possible.

You may need to introduce a 4th, possibly 5th player to the group to try and balance things out. If a group is small, and two or more members tend to feed off each other, then it's harder to rein them in because there's no one else to provide a more constructive influence. If you can get two people, possibly from your old group, into this one, the more enjoyable aspects of their personalities and playstyle may rub off on the disruptive players.

Either that, or you should cut and run. Often times, no game is better than utter frustration.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-24, 05:10 PM
Or you could be a player for a while. No, not to take out your revenge on them when they're DMing, that's passive-aggressive and not very nice. But it would be relaxing not to have to deal with it.

You can gather them all and say "Guys, I'm getting kind of burnt out on DMing. Does anyone else want to run something?" It's not a lie, and it doesn't directly blame them.

snoopy13a
2008-07-24, 05:17 PM
Player A can probably be brought around as he isn't really a jerk. Just turn off your computer.

If B and C can be kicked out of the group without any other reprecussions, I'd do it. They don't really sound like pleasant people to hang out with. If they can't be kicked out of the group (e.g. they are good friends with the nice players), I'd seriously consider quitting. RPing is supposed to fun and if you're not having fun you should spend your free time doing something else.

Crow
2008-07-24, 05:26 PM
Players A, B, and C: "Are you guys my friends, or just some *******s who come over to waste my time? If you don't want to play this game, feel free to leave. Otherwise, pay attention when I am trying to describe something to you in game and keep your mouth shut until I have finished talking. If you have questions, feel free to ask them. If you have unconstructive criticism, keep it to your goddamn self. If you have constructive criticism or pointers, please just wait until the end of the session and I will be more than happy to hear them. If you can't handle using some common ****ing courtesy, get the hell out of my house and go on with your sad virginal lives somewhere else."

Swordguy
2008-07-24, 05:30 PM
Players A, B, and C: "Are you guys my friends, or just some *******s who come over to waste my time? If you don't want to play this game, feel free to leave. Otherwise, pay attention when I am trying to describe something to you in game and keep your mouth shut until I have finished talking. If you have questions, feel free to ask them. If you have unconstructive criticism, keep it to your goddamn self. If you have constructive criticism or pointers, please just wait until the end of the session and I will be more than happy to hear them. If you can't handle using some common ****ing courtesy, get the hell out of my house and go on with your sad virginal lives somewhere else."

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/applause-1.gif

Viruzzo
2008-07-24, 05:44 PM
Stop being nonconfrontational with player A.

Players B and C cannot be salvaged.
Jade Tarem expressed perfectly my opinion. You and the others play to have fun, and if those problem players are not having fun with you you should not play together.

BTW, I have never seen someone (either as a player or as DM) do something like turn away from the game and play with computer/console, but we would have definitely beaten the stupidity out of them.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-24, 06:58 PM
I have indeed been considering adopting a new system. Player B was trying to convince us to play a WW2 D&D game, thus I kind of got the impression that he would perfer something else.

As for kicking B and C.... damn I want to. The more I think about it, the more I do wonder why I hang out with them. Only they are friends with one of my other players, kind of. Plus, still being in school, I would have to deal with the awkward meetings that are sure to come. If they continue to act like total babies after I talk to them about it (which I will be doing this saturday), then I guess I will have to find whatever courage I've got stored away to give them the boot.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-24, 07:07 PM
Kick B and C. Preferably with a pointy shoe. Covered in poison.

A can be salvaged without much trouble, just give him more to do.

Tsadrin
2008-07-24, 07:14 PM
Player A) Pull the plug and hide the cord. Find a CD player for your music. When the character dies the new character must be started at level 1.

Players B & C) Don't invite them back. Their not acting like friends. I don't know about anyone else but I never game with anyone but friends.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-24, 07:20 PM
Player A) Pull the plug and hide the cord. Find a CD player for your music. When the character dies the new character must be started at level 1.


I don't see anything wrong with constantly shifting characters. Eventually he'll settle down.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-24, 07:29 PM
I don't see anything wrong with constantly shifting characters. Eventually he'll settle down.

Thats some great optimism when considering this specific player, as he generally acts like this in every game I have ever run with him, for the full duration. Its not just some newbie uncertainty, but something more. I have been assuming that he has been taking on aspects of characters he is currently interested in (ie: Maybe he just saw Rambo and now all he can think about is huge guys with an unnatural bad-ass presence who can rip people apart with their bare hands).

Also, I would impose a penalty on deaths if I was sure that players B and C wouldent have a "DM BS!" hissy fit.

Edit: My group certainly has some horrible anti-synergy doesnt it...

Tengu_temp
2008-07-24, 07:57 PM
Player A: Set up {Scrubbed} as a background for your computer. Disconnect the keyboard and connect it to high voltage. Tell him he has to buy everyone pizza each time he makes a new character.

Player B: D4 up the nose. While he's stunned, shove a beehive down his pants.

Player C: Immediately after dealing with B, turn towards him and say "are you still going to follow him?" Rub your hands together and laugh maniacally.

xPANCAKEx
2008-07-24, 08:16 PM
player a - just a quiet word away from the group. Grow a pair and talk to them

B - you need to change up your story telling/setting, see how they respond. Try researching new ideas for a campaign, broaden your horizons

C - a quiet word, once again, and ask them, in 20 words or less, what they would like to see improved in the campaign

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-24, 08:29 PM
he generally acts like this in every game I have ever run with him, for the full duration.

Also, I would impose a penalty on deaths if I was sure that players B and C wouldent have a "DM BS!" hissy fit.

Edit: My group certainly has some horrible anti-synergy doesnt it...

Well, then try to find a way that constant suicides can be useful. Or impose a penalty.

You don't have to consider B and C, because they arn't going to be around any more. If necessary, hire Mr. Teatime to deal with them.

Nebo_
2008-07-24, 08:40 PM
B - you need to change up your story telling/setting, see how they respond. Try researching new ideas for a campaign, broaden your horizons


That's ridiculous. Player B is clearly a 'tard. The OP doesn't need to change anything except his players.

What you really need to do is talk to each player individually and punch them in the throat as hard as you can. Then tell them to stop acting like immature 'tards.

valadil
2008-07-24, 09:15 PM
B pisses me off already. He complains when you make up new monsters and then complains when your traps come from the book. I don't know what to do about him. See if you can reconcile outside of game?

C sounds like B's lackey. I think if B behaved better C would be less problematic.

As for A, I agree with locking your computer. Maybe you could ask A what sort of entertainment he needs so he won't run off? Explain that it distracts you as DM and it's making the game worse.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-24, 09:37 PM
So why do these people show up to play, anyway? Are you forcing them with a gun to their head? (Which you like melt into slag when you get them inside, and then inertia keeps them there, or something.) It's the only explanation for why people so uninterested in the game would show up.

Leewei
2008-07-24, 10:33 PM
Player A: Set up {scrubbed} as a background for your computer. Disconnect the keyboard and connect it to high voltage. Tell him he has to buy everyone pizza each time he makes a new character.


Ze goggles! Zey do nossink!

In the way of chiming in with others, with B and C behaving as they do, is it possible A is just trying to escape from them?

Edea
2008-07-24, 10:55 PM
Player A: Set up {scrubbed} as a background for your computer.

"What has been seen cannot be unseen :smalleek: ."

There's far worse than {scrubbed}, though. I'm not sure it's a great idea to point them out HERE, but they're well known and easy to find.

Vexxation
2008-07-24, 11:01 PM
"What has been seen cannot be unseen :smalleek: ."

There's far worse than {scrubbed}, though. I'm not sure it's a great idea to point them out HERE, but they're well known and easy to find.

*cough tubgirl cough*
Nobody Google that. It would be a very poor choice.
I was just suggesting it in case the OP already saw the horror.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-24, 11:29 PM
C sounds like B's lackey. I think if B behaved better C would be less problematic.

The guy whose argument consists of "NO IM RITE UR RONG LALALALALA" is no man's lackey, and everyone's headache - it's only his lack of imagination that has him following in B's footsteps. I'll be honest, from the descriptions given C sounds like the worse of the two to me. I agree with most everything else you said, though.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-24, 11:48 PM
Player A: Set up {Scrubbed} as a background for your computer.

Wow, I hadn't heard of {Scrubbed}before, thus I googled it, luckily a wikipedia article showed up first with a description instead of the image. Eww! :smalleek:

Tengu_temp
2008-07-25, 12:09 AM
Wow, I hadn't heard of {Scrubbed} before, thus I googled it, luckily a wikipedia article showed up first with a description instead of the image. Eww! :smalleek:

Remember this rule - if you stumble upon a term you are not familiar with, wikipedia it. Never google it.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-25, 12:13 AM
Remember this rule - if you stumble upon a term you are not familiar with, wikipedia it. Never google it.

Hehe, reminds me of when my mom didn't know the definition of a certain branch of anime...

Nebo_
2008-07-25, 12:46 AM
I still think that throat punching is the best way to deal with these people.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 06:36 AM
I still think that throat punching is the best way to deal with these people.

I dunno... a strong, strong laxative seems fun too. Just have to figure out what you can mix it into that only B and C eat.

Decoy69
2008-07-25, 06:57 AM
B and C I've no idea about. they just sound like they don't erally want to play. But I'm going to try something to help my players want to keep their characters alive. Maybe it'll help you with A.

I'm going to give out "Survival Feats". For example whenever the party completes some goal that I set, I'll give them a feat of my choosing. Usually something that everyone can benefit from like Endurance, Run, Imp Initiative, Toughness, etc. These feats are ONLY for the character that earned them. Any new characters brought in do not get them.

PnP Fan
2008-07-25, 07:47 AM
Just my two cents.
Player A: Honestly, this guy sounds like he's probably ADD. Constantly changing characters, wandering off during the game to fiddle with your computer. My brother in law and my nephew do this sort of stuff during normal conversations that they lose interest in. They just wander off from the family and turn on the TV or computer and get distracted for awhile, and come back later. I'm not a doctor of course, so I'm just guessing. What you might try and do is meet this guy at his attention span by constantly keeping him busy at the table. Tell him you need him for rules searches or that you want him to draw out the map on your board, or make him the initiative keeper. It's also possible that he finds B&C annoying enough that he doesn't want to be near them. This guy is salvagable, but you need to work with him to bring him back into the action.

Players B&C: no kidd gloves here. Next time B starts complaining, don't counter complain about his campaign, that won't get you anywhere. Just ask him politely that if he's really got issues with the game, then he can leave. He'll either shut up, or leave, either way, you win. Player C will either get the message, and follow suit, or he won't. Give him the same option if he doesn't figure it out. What they are doing is a power play. My guess is that player B was wanting to GM again, or hasn't really let go of the GM's chair. When you were selected to run the next game, he's decided that he's unsatisfied with this, and is making your life difficult. Seriously, even if booting them cuts your game in half, you'll be better off without them.

And, if worse comes to worse, and the rest of the players side with B, leave. You don't need this kind of aggravation. No one does. Your time is valuable, and there are other things you could be doing besides rolling dice with people who annoy you. Just make sure that you have your parting shot when you leave. Be very clear, and non-emotional when you explain to the other players why you are leaving, and how annoying this behaviour is. You probably won't change anyone by doing this, but you'll feel better about leaving, and some of the other players may realize that gamers don't have to put up with other gamers' obnoxious behavior. Those days are over, more or less. I recently stopped running a game for some very good friends for some very similar nonsense. I still play with them, but I made it very clear why I was not going to run a game for them any more. So far the issues that I brought forth haven't been a problem, yet.

_Zoot_
2008-07-25, 09:22 AM
Shoot To Kill?

Burley
2008-07-25, 09:48 AM
I dunno... a strong, strong laxative seems fun too. Just have to figure out what you can mix it into that only B and C eat.

The problem with Laxatives as punishment: You'll have to deal with the mess. Nobody is gonna clean up their own...spill.

Player A...well, I have a similar problem. I, myself, suffer from Character ADD. The best way to fix it: Say "No." Or, ask him to DM. Once I started DMing, I was able to get all my cool/stupid curiosities out in a constructive way. Having Player A behind the DM screen would also solve the "never at table" problem.

As for B, when he starts spouting, ask him to produce the monster the group should fight: "Right now. Show me the page, right now. Show me what you have prepared for the game. With your personal time, what did you do to make this evening enjoyable?" I've found that the best way to keep "Holier Than Thou" players in check, is to (publically) let them know that you work hard on what you do, and you would appreciate some respect. I'm willing to bet, dimes to dollars, that players B&C do very little with their own characters, both mechanically and creatively.

Getting along to player C, next time he spouts louder than you, here's what you do: Be completely quiet until he shuts up. Then, ask "Are you done?" It's either going to send him yelling again (making him look like a huge idiot) or he's going to be quiet (making him realize that he's a huge idiot). Calmly tell him (publically) that, again, you work hard to produce a game that they will hopefully enjoy. You are DM, and you hold the right to do whatever the hell you deem acceptable in-game.

I understand that many people find it embarrassing to be spoken to in front of the entire group. However, many times (many many times) the reason problem players create problems is because they want to show off in front of the other players. It's a common thing to do, especially in our age group (I assume you fall into the 15-23 range). If they want to call you out in front of everybody, you call them out in front of everybody.

If an arguement begins to ensue, calmy begin packing up your things. Never say "Well, then, I'm leaving." Just pack your things, and say "I'm calling it for the evening. We'll come back next scheduled session right here, with anybody who doesn't want to disrupt my game. We will continue to break early whenever situations like these arise again."
When you leave, the other players will put the problem players down for you.


If all else fails, you've still got the other group, yeah?

Ralfarius
2008-07-25, 10:13 AM
If an arguement begins to ensue, calmy begin packing up your things. Never say "Well, then, I'm leaving." Just pack your things, and say "I'm calling it for the evening. We'll come back next scheduled session right here, with anybody who doesn't want to disrupt my game. We will continue to break early whenever situations like these arise again."
When you leave, the other players will put the problem players down for you.
Sometimes it's just better to pack it up. However, as this is taking place in the OP's home (as I understand), I could understand the hesitance to basically say "If you're not going to play to my expectations, get out of my house." I've never sat comfortably with the taking-the-ball-and-leaving attitude. I think that, if the D&D isn't working out, try breaking out with some card games. Munchkin (and it's many, many supplements/expansions) comes highly recommended, or Chez Geek, or Lunch Money or any number of things if they want to get their sillies out. Saying "Well... This isn't working, who wants to play a few rounds of Pimp the Backhanding (http://www.white-wolf.com/pimp/index.php)?" may yield better results. In fact, you might find that you're more interesting in the social engagement than the roleplay itself, and cards are more enjoyable for this group of players.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-25, 10:21 AM
Yup, another one of those threads.
Player A: Player A is a total distraction at all times. If it isnt his turn in combat, hes probally on my computer doing whatever, or something else entirely. He slows the game down constantly by doing this. I know the obvious awnser would be to shut down my computer during sessions, but I sometimes like to play some music during games through it. And even if it was off, I'm sure he would just turn it on anyway. I'm not a very confrontational person.

And then what you need to work on is being confrontational. It's possible to be confrontational without causing fights. Don't be afraid of the person's reaction--as long as you're respectful, it is absolutely imperative that you also ask for respect.

This player is not only being a poor player, he's being a poor guest. There is NO reason he should be getting on your computer without your permission.

I had a group of players who were all generally fantastic, but I had one player who had a habit of sticking on his iPod whenever the game didn't focus on him--and then he'd miss half the action because he wouldn't realize we'd gotten back to him later. I gently pulled him aside and said, "Hey, I know this is a game with a lot of people, and I can't keep focus on your character all the time, but I need to ask you to stop pulling out the iPod. You're missing half the important stuff people are saying, and you're really distracting ME--which makes it all the harder for me to get back to you in a timely way."

He apologized and agreed, no problems, no hard feelings. I also made a blanket statement to the group asking people to have no computers on (unless all that was up was character sheet management software), no iPods/music playing (separate from atmospheric RPG music for the group), no DSes, etc. That way it was also clear to him that I wasn't picking on him but applying the same rule to everyone.

Since he is a fidgety player (I also am when I'm not GMing--I am totally ADD) I did allow him to get up from the table and pace if he felt fidgety. But that's ALL. And he's respectful enough that that is all he did, and he actually ended up to the game's action way, way, better than if he was forced to sit still.

I'd suggest a similar approach to him--just explain you understand he gets bored easily but explain why he's making the situation worse. Try to compromise--offering to have him roll dice for your monsters or whatever is another good way of keeping a fidgety player busy.

As for his PC-boredom, there's nothing to do about that except be firm--no new characters (I ALSO had to do this with my gaming group--I had three people at once in fact try to change characters on a whim; I said to the group, "Okay, this ONCE but no more. It's too hard for me to keep you involved in a story and design adventures in a balanced way if I have to come up with how Bob joins the party next week, etc." They complied without argument--they knew I had a lot of distractions to deal with, and once they were aware that this was a problem for me, they stopped doing it.

And AWARENESS is the key thing, ESPECIALLY for distracted players--sometimes all that needs to be done is just making them realize their behavior is harmful to the game. A lot of times people like that don't realize they're affecting anyone else.

If you want to hide behind being "non-confrontational" as an excuse, you're going to have the same issues over and over, so learn how to assert yourself now and make it a lot easier for yourself to run games in future.

That said, you could always ask one of your fellow cooperative players to be with you for support when you talked to him, but you all better be good friends or it may seem like you're ganging up on him.


Player B: Player B doesn't seem to understand how fantasy works.<snip> "Oh yeah, thats sooo original."

Player B knows how fantasy works. Player B doesn't care because he obviously doesn't respect you as a Game Master, and is using "realism" as means to get up your nose. I don't know the reasons behind this; it's possible especially if he's comparing his campaigns to yours that he thinks he should be running instead.

If he is a friend (I'm not sure why, but I don't know these people) then you should be able to say, "Hey, I really like your games, but I'm the GM now. Can you lay off the insults/arguments? It's slowing the game down. If you have suggestions, I'm all ears, but could you please wait until the game is over?"

If it's amenable to EVERYONE, switching the system could help if that all is the real issue, but I doubt it is. People aren't jerks to their GMs because they're playing HERO when they want to be playing In Nomine; people are jerks because they're jerks.

From the description, he sounds very disrespectful and very disruptive, all for very little good reason. I'd be inclined to say, "Look, obviously my style and yours don't mesh. If you don't like the way I run the game, I'm sorry, but this is what we're playing. If you don't stop being so disruptive, I'm going to have to ask you to leave."

Also, you might chat with your cooperative players about what you might do about him, especially if all of you know him.


Player C: Player C is very troublesome. He is loud, obnoxious, and agrees with everything Player B says.

Pretty much everything I said about B. You should be able to make it clear to him he's slowing the game down, and he'll either try to control himself, or he's a jerk and he needs to be asked to leave.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-25, 10:22 AM
Thats some great optimism when considering this specific player, as he generally acts like this in every game I have ever run with him, for the full duration. Its not just some newbie uncertainty, but something more. I have been assuming that he has been taking on aspects of characters he is currently interested in (ie: Maybe he just saw Rambo and now all he can think about is huge guys with an unnatural bad-ass presence who can rip people apart with their bare hands).


You know, I think a good soloution for this fellow might be to offer him an 'assistant GMship'. I.e. He gets to play, and roll up after discussion with you before the game, a different "NPC" each couple of sessions. This allows him to keep even power with the group, jump characters with some regularity, and probably helps keep him from getting distracted as easily since he'll be trying to draw the rest of the party into the adventure too.

As for the computer use, screensaver with a password or a boombox. Or just ask him to stop. Tell him it's distracting and if he's a reasonable human being he'll understand. If he's not, why are you playing with him in the first place?


Players A, B, and C: "Are you guys my friends, or just some *******s who come over to waste my time? If you don't want to play this game, feel free to leave. Otherwise, pay attention when I am trying to describe something to you in game and keep your mouth shut until I have finished talking. If you have questions, feel free to ask them. If you have unconstructive criticism, keep it to your goddamn self. If you have constructive criticism or pointers, please just wait until the end of the session and I will be more than happy to hear them. If you can't handle using some common ****ing courtesy, get the hell out of my house and go on with your sad virginal lives somewhere else."

This is pretty much what I would say to B and C but not A. A seems to be a different case.

valadil
2008-07-25, 10:31 AM
I can be a fidgety player too. It seems I have ADHD, but only in my fingers. Usually this just means I eat throughout the game, but I'm trying to cut back on that. As such I've started bring small toys to fiddle with while playing. Nothing that takes too much attention - just the sort of things to keep my fingers mobile while I listen to game when it's not my turn. Player A might benefit from this sort of thing.

Some GMs object to too much outside entertainment, so some of these options are D&D friendly (as indicated by an asterisk).

The sort of stuff I bring includes:
*Minis and paint, though that may be too messy depending on the area.
*Pipe cleaner. I make outlines of AoEs in various colors. Was great for my sculpted grease and stinking cloud sorc.
Magnets. Noisy though.
Rubik's Cube. Takes more attention that other things, not sure if it was a good idea.
Lockpicks and masterlock. Unusual so it may distract other players.

I've also received suggestions to take up knitting and make dice bags and hackey sacks for the players at the table. Haven't gotten bored of my other stuff yet, but when I do I'll give it a try.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-25, 10:36 AM
I can be a fidgety player too. It seems I have ADHD, but only in my fingers. Usually this just means I eat throughout the game, but I'm trying to cut back on that. As such I've started bring small toys to fiddle with while playing. Nothing that takes too much attention - just the sort of things to keep my fingers mobile while I listen to game when it's not my turn. Player A might benefit from this sort of thing.


Yep, good idea. I do character sketches.

If he's not artistically inclined letting him fiddle with minis or something along those lines could also be possible.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-07-25, 12:37 PM
Yep, good idea. I do character sketches.

If he's not artistically inclined letting him fiddle with minis or something along those lines could also be possible.

Actually he is a fantastic miniature painter. Has won more than one contest at our local game shops even. Letting him paint at the table sounds like a great idea.

Viruzzo
2008-07-25, 04:52 PM
Actually he is a fantastic miniature painter. Has won more than one contest at our local game shops even. Letting him paint at the table sounds like a great idea.
I think that's still missing the point. Whatever the reason, if he does something else he's not really participating to the game, which is supposed to be cooperative. You really need to question him on why he doesn't get interested enough in the game, and what would he want to improve his attention. BTW he doesn't probably fit too well with the other players, since
1) the other players' turns are something that regards him
2) even if not actively playing I'd expect him to at least chat with the other players

valadil
2008-07-25, 04:59 PM
I think that's still missing the point. Whatever the reason, if he does something else he's not really participating to the game, which is supposed to be cooperative.

Speaking from experience, I disagree. I get fidgety if my hands aren't doing something. This leads to trips to the bathroom, snacking, and email checking. While I'm doing those I'm not in the game at all. If I have a mini to paint, I'm not going to wander off or get impatient. The idea is to find something that's a light enough distraction that you can still focus 90% on the game, which is 90% more attention than you get from a player who isn't at the table.

Crow
2008-07-25, 04:59 PM
I would just skip player A's turn every time it came up until he started paying attention for himself. If he doesn't want to play, why should I hold his hand?


I get fidgety if my hands aren't doing something. This leads to trips to the bathroom...

Dare I ask what trips to the bathroom have to do with idle hands?

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-25, 05:21 PM
I would just skip player A's turn every time it came up until he started paying attention for himself. If he doesn't want to play, why should I hold his hand?

This works, too.


Dare I ask what trips to the bathroom have to do with idle hands?

Maybe he just needs to make private dice rolls.

ColonelFuster
2008-07-25, 05:34 PM
*sticks fingers in ears at Jade's comment* LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!

Viruzzo
2008-07-25, 05:42 PM
Speaking from experience, I disagree. I get fidgety if my hands aren't doing something. This leads to trips to the bathroom, snacking, and email checking. While I'm doing those I'm not in the game at all. If I have a mini to paint, I'm not going to wander off or get impatient. The idea is to find something that's a light enough distraction that you can still focus 90% on the game, which is 90% more attention than you get from a player who isn't at the table.
Apart from going to the bathroom, which you need to (especially if your sessions are like mine last, which had about 1-2 liters of beer per player since the women drank only whisky cream), and snacking, that does not prevent you from paying attention to the game, I would not tolerate such behavior nor as a DM nor as a player. If the game is not interesting enough for you to pay attention, we can work it out, else you're better off leaving the game and go cure that attention disorder. :smallwink:


I would just skip player A's turn every time it came up until he started paying attention for himself. If he doesn't want to play, why should I hold his hand?
That could work, but if you reach that point you both will probably better off going separate ways.


Dare I ask what trips to the bathroom have to do with idle hands?
Dare not, I beg of you. I stumbled on a (thankfully largely shrinked) picture of Goatse today, and that's quite enough discomfort for a single day.

EagleWiz
2008-07-25, 08:21 PM
Player A: Talk to him about choosing one charactor or being the DM. Password protect the computer.
Player B: The next time he complains about homebrewed monsters pull out the non-hombrewed Tarrsque/Anciant Red Dragon. That runs away after killing him.
Player C: Hit him upside the head with a large hardcover rulebook.

valadil
2008-07-25, 08:40 PM
I would not tolerate such behavior nor as a DM nor as a player.

Keep in mind it's not like I'm fidgeting or playing around all game, and when I do it doesn't take up my full attention. I imagine player A has a much bigger problem with this sort of thing than I do. I'm offering a way for him to cope with his problem rather than punting him because he couldn't deal with it himself.

-- addendum --

The toy thing is actually a replacement for snacking as well. Most people I game with snack while we play, which you've said is acceptable. I have a weight problem and can't afford to down a bag of cheetos every time we have a game. Whether or not I bring any, food gets passed around and unless my hands are occupied I overeat. A rubik's cube is something I can bring to game to keep my hands off of food. I explained this to my DMs and they respect it.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-26, 09:51 AM
I think that's still missing the point. Whatever the reason, if he does something else he's not really participating to the game, which is supposed to be cooperative.

I disagree. Sounds to me like he's an ADD player, much like I am and the way some other players have mentioned.

If I have something to do with my hands--like I said, I often do character sketches--I am actually much more likely to be paying attention to what is going on. I know it doesn't make sense, but if I have a consistent thing keeping the day-dreamy part of my brain occupied, the rest of me becomes a much better listener. If you made me sit in my seat and do nothing, my attention would just break and you'd find me counting cracks in the ceiling having no idea what else is going on, and I'd actually be far more a "disruptive" player because I'd keep losing my focus.

The key with this guy is keeping him in his chair and away from the GM's stuff (his computer), and close to where he can hear the GM say, "IT'S YOUR TURN, NOW." If he's a good mini painter, he's contributing to the game with both his art and he's staying at the table and no longer driving the GM crazy. Perfectly good compromise, IMO.

I've been dealing with my ADD unmedicated for 20 years now, and trust me, I know the compensation techniques I need to do to keep my focus where it's needed. And I know a similar player to me when I see one--and I know how I handle myself and how I handle my own players with similar issues. It works, and it overall makes gameplay better. Seriously.

Viruzzo
2008-07-26, 10:17 AM
I disagree. Sounds to me like he's an ADD player, much like I am and the way some other players have mentioned.
What does that mean, Attention Deficit Disorder?
I see your and valadil's points, but what you and him are saying is that to pay attention to the game you have to divert some of it towards other things. There's no problem with that, I don't want to prevent anyone from doing anything else but playing, as long as you are participating. Watching TV, playing with videogames and carefully painting a mini all seem to me like things that are going to divert too much of your attention.


The key with this guy is keeping him in his chair and away from the GM's stuff (his computer), and close to where he can hear the GM say, "IT'S YOUR TURN, NOW."
That's what I mean: if he is there only to roll the dice then something's not right. What I'd expect at the very least would be him talking with the other players, and knowing when his turn is (actually, expecting it with anticipation?).
And after all, he might not have any attention disorder and just be a bit of a moron, so maybe it's better to talk to him honestly and firmly and clear things out.

valadil
2008-07-26, 01:13 PM
Watching TV, playing with videogames and carefully painting a mini all seem to me like things that are going to divert too much of your attention.

How much attention is used up depends on the person. I couldn't watch TV, play a game, check email, or read a book while RPing. I can paint minis though. They take a lot of hand and eye focus but I'm free to listen. I can also put them down on a moments notice. They can be messy though and they do take up a lot of space. Drawing character sketches is probably a better option for most people.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-26, 01:20 PM
What does that mean, Attention Deficit Disorder?

Yes.


I see your and valadil's points, but what you and him are saying is that to pay attention to the game you have to divert some of it towards other things. There's no problem with that, I don't want to prevent anyone from doing anything else but playing, as long as you are participating. Watching TV, playing with videogames and carefully painting a mini all seem to me like things that are going to divert too much of your attention.

I don't think anyone suggested watching TV or playing videogames. I disagree about painting a mini, but that probably varies from person to person.

As I understand it he was getting up and going to the computer to check his email. It sounds like he's fidgety, and thinking of other stuff to do when he's not directly involved in the game's action. It's important as part of the advice given to point out that getting up and getting on your GM's computer is not appropriate activity for gaming -- or being a guest in general.

Now it could totally be that he actually isn't interested in playing. In which case, Myatar needs to ask him that question--"Are you interested in this game?" (So I'm agreeing with you there, that yes, a conversation needs to be had with him. Certainly I don't think someone should just hand him a mini and some paints and tell him to get cracking.)

If he really is, then giving him something to do at the table seems to be a good idea. If he isn't, then it's best to suggest he sits out this campaign.

EndlessWrath
2008-07-26, 08:05 PM
here's my solution to your problem...you're not gonna like it...but i feel like this is a strong possibility.

Either boot Players B&C or Quit the game and start a new one without players B&C. Although some would disagree with the idea making it seem like cowardice and running away...i believe differently...

Dungeons and Dragons is a game... Games are used for entertainment and enjoyment. If you're not enjoying the game due to negative factors caused by people you become stressed and the game no longer is fun, which leads you to create this board.

Before quitting or booting, Talk to B&C, tell them straight up that you're not enjoying the game because of what they say and their D*** F****** fits...If they don't like the game then why do they play? try to find a middle ground before booting, but definitely keep the boot ready. People tend not to change unless somebody takes a board to their head...figuratively or not.


For Player A... Death penalty rules might help i guess...but it won't solve the problem.


Help him build a character thats super mallable with LOTS AND LOTS OF OPTIONS OF CHANGES. Like... someone who's average with all the abilities...rather then specialize in one... although he'll be underpowered... he'll still be fun to play. This might help... or you might want to look at variant rule Feat replacement... When you learn a new feat (every 3 levels or by special class ability) you can retrain one of your old feats into a different one. Change power attack to two weapon fighting... This lets him change up rather than having his character killed.

otherwise Changeling for races and such?

Edit: also... Another trick I'd like to point out... I was running a game with 6-10 players... and that was my FIRST CAMPAIGN. yes.. it was a mistake to start dming with that many...but I've learned a lot of cool things and interesting tricks.
here's one of them... Keep player A interested. When he begins to leave... stop him by giving him something to do... now i don't think this applies to when he must use the restroom or when he must get something to eat...but rather stopping him from being distracted and getting bored. All players need a spotlight... some a little more than others. Make him feel like he's constantly doing something by throwing skill checks and saves and actions at him.

Greenfaun
2008-07-26, 10:00 PM
Another good occupation for ADD gamers is knitting, take it from me. It's very easy on everyone around you, too.

As for player-handling advice, I would say it's unclear whether B & C are being passive aggressive (well, in C's case, just aggressive) or are trying to engage you in a dominance contest. If they just don't like you and they're hanging out because you're the only game in town, you're pretty much screwed. Give them the boot and prepare for ugly pointless drama.

On the other hand, if they're insecure and jockeying for dominance, then you can take control of the game and they might (might!) come around. If all else fails you can abuse your in-game omnipotence, although I don't recommend it because this might scare off the good players.

Of course, either way they're being jerks, and you're not obligated to play with jerks. Just because the GM's job is to provide the game for everyone else doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your own fun to the whims of jerks.