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shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 10:12 AM
What is the best build for making a large, powerful character with lots of hitpoints who fires ranged projectiles very fast?

Half-Giant with Monkey Grip using a Huge Repeating Heavy Crossbow looks good, but I don't know about the rest of the feats or classes.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-25, 10:15 AM
What is the best build for making a large, powerful character with lots of hitpoints who fires ranged projectiles very fast?

Max out potence and celerity.

Oops, wrong game :smallwink: seriously though, you should specify which books are allowed.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 10:17 AM
Max out potence and celerity.

Oops, wrong game :smallwink: seriously though, you should specify which books are allowed.

Any D&D 3.5 book. I don't even have to own them, as long as I can prove they exist the DM will accept it. As our current campaign is at level 4, I'd like to have the build viable at 10 or lower.

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 10:23 AM
For a big, big crossbow, there's a Great Crossbow (2d8, 18-20/x2) in Races of Stone, but it takes a full round to reload.

If you want fast, just get Rapid Reload and a Light Crossbow. Or use a Longbow.

Powerful Build and Monkey Grip don't stack. Monkey Grip is awful, too :smallyuk:.

Spiryt
2008-07-25, 10:29 AM
If you want fast, just get Rapid Reload and a Light Crossbow. Or use a Longbow.


I would rather use javelins or someting with Quick draw, from fluff reasons though.

"Large, powerful character" will look more appropriately hurling some spear to impale enemies.

It's a shame that javelin don't have any Martial version, which is a bit more effective...

They're proabably more effective that Lcrossbow with RR at least. Range is much worse, but at least strenght damage is added, and with "large powerful character I suspect that it will be high bonus."

Nebo_
2008-07-25, 10:29 AM
What is the best build for making a large, powerful character with lots of hitpoints who fires ranged projectiles very fast?

Half-Giant with Monkey Grip using a Huge Repeating Heavy Crossbow looks good, but I don't know about the rest of the feats or classes.

MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 10:31 AM
Powerful Build and Monkey Grip don't stack. Monkey Grip is awful, too :smallyuk:.

Whats so awful about it? It negates a penalty, and I'll have boatloads of those.

EDIT: Okay, so Half Giant won't work. Anything better out there? Half Ogre has that Dex penalty I dislike...

EDIT EDIT: Hmmm... javelins...

Signmaker
2008-07-25, 10:47 AM
Firing very fast would be the only exception to me suggesting Cragtop archer. I mean really, a hulking behemoth with a massive Dragonbone Greatbow Far Shotting arrows from under a mile away? But that's not what you want.

Another (Albeit Silly) option would be to go Wizard and run nothing but Launch Bolt cantrips on Colossal Sized Crossbow Bolts.

For a slightly more serious option, only slightly, what about the octuple repeating crossbows from Goblins? If you could get a DM that would let that by...

For real, now. Manyshot, Rapid Shot, with a Longbow might be your best bet. For some reason I don't think that Repeating Crossbows should be your best option, but maybe another board member can help out. Personally, I've always seen crossbows as Sub-par, but I've never actually played one.

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 10:48 AM
I would rather use javelins or someting with Quick draw, from fluff reasons though.

"Large, powerful character" will look more appropriately hurling some spear to impale enemies.

It's a shame that javelin don't have any Martial version, which is a bit more effective...

They're proabably more effective that Lcrossbow with RR at least. Range is much worse, but at least strenght damage is added, and with "large powerful character I suspect that it will be high bonus."

There's the Icechucker (1d12/x3) from Frostburn, which you load WITH javelins (or icicles). Full round to reload, though.

If you want to throw stuff without worrying about Dex, there's Brutal Throw from CAd that switches it to Str. Or Zen Archery from CW to make ranged weapons use Wis.

Another option for fast is the Elven Double Bow.


Whats so awful about it? It negates a penalty, and I'll have boatloads of those.

I'd google it if I were you, unless you want this turning into a Monkey Grip thread. Suffice to say that it's considered among the worst feats in D&D by many CharOp experts.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-25, 10:49 AM
If you're willing to spend a little gold, get a huge guy, go bruiser rogue (with full ranks in UMD, of course), buy the triple wand rotator clip thingy from the Complete Mage, load it with Magic Missile wands (pay extra to make them CL 9). Dual wield them, and go to town. I'm not sure if that's even legal, but if it is you can have your character be a huge bald guy with leather armor (and a bandolier!) and a five o' clock shadow wade into combat firing fifteen magic missiles per round from each hand.

Screw it, my bad. Load them with wands of chain missile at full CL and double that number - 60 missiles per round. If that's not a big guy with fast firing guns then nothing is.

Or, to get the most out of the build, load the things with wands of scorching ray at max CL, then have the wizard cast improved invisibility on you. At that point each ray gets full sneak attack damage (unlike magic missile and chain missle, or fireball), and all of a sudden you're firing 18 touch attacks per round, each of which does 4d6 plus sneak attack, which for a level 10 rogue is 5d6. So, ~162d6 damage per round, assuming you hit with everything. Max damage per round is 972.

Other wand options you may want to consider for this combo:
Fireball
Web (for the lulz)
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Javelin (Spell Compendium)
Quillblast (I think it's a level four spell, if not then ignore this, it's too high)
Any "Orb" spell
Jet of Fire (Flamethrower!)

Tell me, sir, does it feel good to be a gangsta?

Worira
2008-07-25, 10:49 AM
Hulking Hurler. No, not the "how do i threw moon?" kind, the kind that chucks big javelins and rocks.

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 10:52 AM
If you're willing to spend a little gold, get a huge guy, go bruiser rogue (with full ranks in UMD, of course), buy the triple wand rotator clip thingy from the Complete Mage, load it with Magic Missile wands (pay extra to make them CL 9). Dual wield them, and go to town. I'm not sure if that's even legal, but if it is you can have your character be a huge bald guy with leather armor (and a bandolier!) and a five o' clock shadow wade into combat firing fifteen magic missiles per round from each hand.

Screw it, my bad. Load them with wands of chain missile at full CL and double that number - 60 missiles per round. If that's not a big guy with fast firing guns then nothing is.

Or, to get the most out of the build, load the things with wands of scorching ray at max CL, then have the wizard cast improved invisibility on you. At that point each ray gets full sneak attack damage, and all of a sudden you're firing 18 touch attacks per round, each of which does 4d6 plus sneak attack.

Tell me, sir, does it feel good to be a gangsta?

Better to be an Artificer if you go this route.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 10:53 AM
Ah. Okay, so I have my feats (Savage Throw and Quick Draw), I have my weapon of choice (javelin).

As cool as firing masses of laser-beams via wands would be, I don't have that money

All I need now is a Race and a Class.

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 10:56 AM
Ah. Okay, so I have my feats (Savage Throw and Quick Draw), I have my weapon of choice (javelin).

As cool as firing masses of laser-beams via wands would be, I don't have that money

All I need now is a Race and a Class.

The money issue is why you go Artificer, which lets you make them very cheap as part of the class. Eberron Campaign Setting, gogo!

The javelin-chucker works well with a lot of things. Any further requirements to whittle it down? Keep in mind a javelin is 30' range, so you might want Far Shot in that build.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 10:57 AM
The money issue is why you go Artificer, which lets you make them very cheap as part of the class. Eberron Campaign Setting, gogo!

The javelin-chucker works well with a lot of things. Any further requirements to whittle it down?

Erm, theres the feat that reduces it by 25%.
I wasn't aware it went lower than that.


Further requirements? Erm, high HP would be nice. I'm just having a lot of difficulty finding a good class for throwing and a decent Large or Huge race with a low enough LA.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-25, 10:59 AM
Better to be an Artificer if you go this route.

Ah, but if you go artificer, better to use fireball or lighting bolt wands, since there's no sneak attack any more.

The artificer option is a viable one - wands are cheaper than people sometimes think.

The Glyphstone
2008-07-25, 11:00 AM
Because they craft it at 50% of market price already, plus some XP that they get from eating other magic items. With the two crafting feats, they can reduce both the GP cost and the XP cost by another 25%.

Bayar
2008-07-25, 11:01 AM
Axe thrower Orc with permanent enlarge person barbarian, that PrC that turns you into a bear, gloves of man and hulking hurler. Throw big things at people. Like your light load...

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 11:01 AM
Erm, theres the feat that reduces it by 25%.
I wasn't aware it went lower than that.


Further requirements? Erm, high HP would be nice. I'm just having a lot of difficulty finding a good class for throwing and a decent Large or Huge race with a low enough LA.

The Artificer gets free xp for crafting purposes with each level. Crafting your own wands reduces the price by 50%. Tack on the 25% off feat, and they're downright cheap.

Try Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny. +2 LA and no RHD for large size and great stat bonuses--just make sure to buy off the LA. As for class, anything with full BAB. Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, or Cleric (using Divine Power) would work fine.

Human Paragon 3
2008-07-25, 11:03 AM
Goliath may be a good choice for you. Mountain movement for jumping around the battlefield and the powerful build negates your need for monkey grip.

I recomend starting as a fighter (or Generic Warrior from unearthed arecana/SRD) then grabbing some ranger or barbarian.

Another good idea might be the ranger-barian that trades out rage for favored enemy and archery style (that you can apply to your javelins). This is all on the SRD, except for goliath, but half giant works nicely, too.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-25, 11:06 AM
Really, I'm hurt. How can you do that to me man? Title your thread like that and not include a link? :smallfrown:

I am Heavy Weapons Guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY5qJHZCz2I)

OK, and now back to your regularly scheduled program.

:smallcool:

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 11:07 AM
Because they craft it at 50% of market price already, plus some XP that they get from eating other magic items. With the two crafting feats, they can reduce both the GP cost and the XP cost by another 25%.

So that comes to 75% of 50%, so that brings it to.. 37%? 37%. Thats roughly 3 times the value from WBL if I make it myself. So the question is, at what level does all that equipment become viable? Can I just take one level of artificer and the gold-reduction feat?

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 11:13 AM
So that comes to 75% of 50%, so that brings it to.. 37%? 37%. Thats roughly 3 times the value from WBL if I make it myself. So the question is, at what level does all that equipment become viable? Can I just take one level of artificer and the gold-reduction feat?

No, you want to go pure Artificer. Prioritize Int, then Con. You've only got a d6 but your (assumed) high Con bonus will mitigate that. Describe him as a very big guy with an accent.

He's the guy who builds Sasha, THEN uses her to waste the enemy. Sasha will get bigger and better over time (new and better wands).

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 11:24 AM
I can't seem to find this "triple wand rotator" in complete mage. Sure you have the right book? Maybe it was in something else? Page number please, anyway.

Grommen
2008-07-25, 11:42 AM
Troll with a Panther Assualt Cannon, Valigent LMG, and a Sniper Riffle.

I've got the books, you can have them on PDF if you want, cause they are out of print.

I mean you can't get much bigger than that. And you said ANY book.

Hay can't a half giant or something like that fire a Balasta? I mean if your going off the deep end, might as well go way over.

Vexxation
2008-07-25, 11:48 AM
Take a level of a commoner class so you can get the Flaw that gives a 50/50 chance to pull out a chicken instead of whatever you wanted to grab. Obtain a carrying device that is a free action to pull something out of (I think a Spell Components pouch was used for the build I saw). Go monk, then drunken master. Anything becomes a weapon, and they deal damage equal to your unarmed damage.

Now take relevant throwing feats, and throw live chickens.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 12:17 PM
Please, where is the book with the rotating wand mechanism?

playswithfire
2008-07-25, 12:19 PM
Whatever or LA 1/Fighter 4/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/War Mind 5

or Fighter 4/Swordsage 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/War Mind 5 to get more WIS synergy and take Zen Archery (but requires martial study and martial stance feats)*

Grab an Orc shotput (or something like that), drop INT a bit and ask 'Play ball?' before bouncing your weapon off everyone around you.

Oh, did I mention their touch attacks (weak spot at Master Thrower 5) that get no strength damage, but that OK, since you can power attack (Bloodstorm Blade 2) and you only need one since it comes back each time (Bloodstorm Blade 4) and if two people stand next to each other, you can hit them with the same attack (sweeping strike at War Mind 5 combined with Bloodstorm Blade 2) and you can increase your size (war minds can get expansion at first level), though thrown weapons return to normal size, so that's less useful

*actually a fuzzy area when using bloodstorm blade 2 ability; worst case, use the brutal throw feat chain (which makes BB2 useless, but BB3 gives a feat and BB4 makes it bounce back each time, so the levels aren't completely wasted.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-25, 12:32 PM
Please, where is the book with the rotating wand mechanism?

Sadly, I don't have access to my books right now. I am pretty sure that it was in the complete mage, and equally certain that it is not called the "triple wand rotator clip thingy." The thing may not rotate at all (it looks kinda like a gun), and may not work the way I said it does (or may not work without some impressive TWF ability), but I'm pretty sure that it works out the same mechanically.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-25, 12:36 PM
Please, where is the book with the rotating wand mechanism?

He had it right, it's Complete Mage. The name is just wrong. It's "The Rod of Many Wands" as I recall.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-25, 12:47 PM
Troll with a Panther Assualt Cannon, Valigent LMG, and a Sniper Riffle.

I've got the books, you can have them on PDF if you want, cause they are out of print.

I mean you can't get much bigger than that. And you said ANY book.

Hay can't a half giant or something like that fire a Balasta? I mean if your going off the deep end, might as well go way over.

Base Troll ECL before adding class levels is 11. Just keep that in mind.

Arbitrarity
2008-07-25, 12:56 PM
I bet that's shadowrun, actually.

EndgamerAzari
2008-07-25, 01:01 PM
Entire team thread is BABIES!

Hah, a month or so ago I had a thread on making D&D characters that almost mirrored the TF2 classes. Take a look:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83685&highlight=Team+Fortress

That might help a little!

Arbitrarity
2008-07-25, 01:03 PM
Problem: ECL 4 vs. ECL 18 gestalt. Also, what ever happened to those NPC's? Did they not get used, TPK, or are they just waiting to be used?

EndgamerAzari
2008-07-25, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I know it's not on the same power level, but hey, it's something to work towards, I guess.

I haven't run again yet, and likely won't until January. So I have time to put these guys together and fine-tune them.

Arbitrarity
2008-07-25, 01:08 PM
Cool :smallbiggrin: I wanna hear reports. Careful though, I recall those characters being rather powerful (ah, scout, with 4 arrows of 10d6 each :smallbiggrin:)

Incidentally, greater manyshot isn't epic, I'm looking at This one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), whereas you're looking at Improved Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManyshot), which is much worse, and weaker.

EndgamerAzari
2008-07-25, 01:10 PM
Yeah, though I'd really have to fudge it on that, since Greater Manyshot is an Epic Feat.

Ok, thread derailment over.

>.>
<.<

BABIES!

NEO|Phyte
2008-07-25, 01:13 PM
Yeah, though I'd really have to fudge it on that, since Greater Manyshot is an Epic Feat.


No (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManyshot) it isn't.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 01:14 PM
He had it right, it's Complete Mage. The name is just wrong. It's "The Rod of Many Wands" as I recall.

GAAAAAAAAAH!

"Hmm.. A thing you put wands into that rotates.. clearly that is a Wondrous Object!" I thought. Bah! Thanks, looking into it now.

Yeril
2008-07-25, 01:17 PM
Step 1: Take a Half ogre from Savage species, its +1LA
Step 2: Take exotic weapon proficiency (Great Crossbow)
Step 3: Take Rapid Reload (Great Crossbow)
Step 4: Take the self loading enchantment* for crossbows that costs a flat 1000gp.
Step 5: Presto, between the self-loading and rapid reload, your huge ballista sized crossbow now reloads as a free action. Fire away Heavy!

*from arms and equiptment.

EndgamerAzari
2008-07-25, 01:19 PM
No (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManyshot) it isn't.

No wonder I couldn't freakin' find it. I just assumed he meant Improved.

Well, I feel like a tool.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 01:23 PM
Step 1: Take a Half ogre from Savage species, its +1LA
Step 2: Take exotic weapon proficiency (Great Crossbow)
Step 3: Take Rapid Reload (Great Crossbow)
Step 4: Take the self loading enchantment* for crossbows that costs a flat 1000gp.
Step 5: Presto, between the self-loading and rapid reload, your huge ballista sized crossbow now reloads as a free action. Fire away Heavy!

*from arms and equiptment.

Hey, nice. Thanks! Now I have to choose though; that build in the short term or the other one in the long term.

expirement10K14
2008-07-25, 01:30 PM
Make STR highest (18 base if possilbe), dexterity must be at least 13. Buff constitution next, then wisdom.

Ogre-
LA 2/RHD 4/Barbarian 5/Frenzied Beserker 9
Feats:
Flaw:Point Blank Shot
1:Power Attack (Prereq)
3:Cleave (Prereq)
6:Intimidating Rage (Prereq, Cwar)
9:Destructive Rage (Prereq, Cwar)
12:Brutal Throw (Cadv, use STR bonus for Attack rolls with Thrown Weapons)
15:Monkey grip
18:Rapid Shot

Throw Huge Javelins at BAB
+17/+17/+12/+7/+2

Say your strength breaks down to-
18 (Base) + 10 (Racial) +4 (Levels) + 5 (Manual of gainful Exercise +5) + 4 (Rune of Righteous Might) + 6 (Rune of Divine Power)

Rune of Divine Power also increase BaB by 10, and Rune of Righteous Might increases size to Huge.

That makes you throw gargantuan javelins at +43/+43/+38/+33/+28
Thats 3d6+18 damage each.

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 01:36 PM
Step 1: Take a Half ogre from Savage species, its +1LA
Step 2: Take exotic weapon proficiency (Great Crossbow)
Step 3: Take Rapid Reload (Great Crossbow)
Step 4: Take the self loading enchantment* for crossbows that costs a flat 1000gp.
Step 5: Presto, between the self-loading and rapid reload, your huge ballista sized crossbow now reloads as a free action. Fire away Heavy!

*from arms and equiptment.

And give that crossbow the Splitting Weapon enhancement once you have the money.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-25, 01:39 PM
And give that crossbow the Splitting Weapon enhancement once you have the money.

And Exit Wounds. And Explosive. And then use burrowing bolts. (All can be found in the Complete Warrior).

Stop looking at me like that. It's a good investment. A chain of explosions rip through your foes with every shot. You can take out a legion of mooks in a couple of rounds!

Adumbration
2008-07-25, 01:40 PM
And Exit Wounds. And Explosive. And then use burrowing bolts.

Stop looking at me like that. It's a good investment. A chain of explosions rip through your foes with every shot. You can take out a legion of mooks in a couple of rounds!

Heh, reminds me of Detritus...

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 01:42 PM
And Boots of Speed for even faster firing, if you don't have a Haste-happy caster in the party.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 02:00 PM
Heh, reminds me of Detritus...

Perfect! Thank GOD!

Now I can say this build is Detrius, and the other one is Heavy Weapons Guy! I can use BOTH, with time for my pixie swordsmen in between! Whoot!

Arbitrarity
2008-07-25, 02:14 PM
I always liked the idea of a Half-Ogre Goliath. +2 or +3 LA, and +16 strength, +8ish CON, large size, +6 or so natural armor, often treated as huge, generally kills everything in melee.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 03:57 PM
And give that crossbow the Splitting Weapon enhancement once you have the money.

Wheres that located?

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 04:16 PM
Wheres that located?

As a simple Google search would have told you: Champions of Ruin, a Forgotten Realms book.

Waspinator
2008-07-25, 04:23 PM
Entire team thread is BABIES!

Hah, a month or so ago I had a thread on making D&D characters that almost mirrored the TF2 classes. Take a look:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83685&highlight=Team+Fortress

That might help a little!

Yep, that thread was fun. I still vote for the Dwarven Reciprocator:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9467/recoprocatorbu9.jpg

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-25, 06:23 PM
Yep, that thread was fun. I still vote for the Dwarven Reciprocator:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9467/recoprocatorbu9.jpg

Huh.. what... HOW? WHERE? WHAT?!

Chronicled
2008-07-25, 06:55 PM
Huh.. what... HOW? WHERE? WHAT?!

Did you even read his post? Or just not bother following the link? It's detailed right there.


There's a series of 3.5 books for the Warcraft setting that you might want to consider looking into. Specifically, "Magic & Mayhem" features a weapon called the Dwarven Reciprocator that I think would be perfect for the Heavy. It's basically a clockwork automatic rifle. You can fire five shots as a full-round action, though the first has a -2 attack penalty, the second a -4, third -6, etc.., as long as everything you're shooting at is within a 5-foot radius of each other. You need a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearms) and it costs 1,500 GP, but each shot does 3d6. Really cool weapon.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9467/recoprocatorbu9.jpg

See? A tiny bit of research could have answered your question even faster.

Waspinator
2008-07-25, 08:41 PM
I really do love those Warcraft books. Lots of crazy, fun stuff that can be worked into standard D&D pretty easily.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-26, 12:09 AM
Sorry, no, I didn't read all the way to the second page of that thread. COooooooooOOOoOOOOol.

soylentplaid
2008-07-26, 01:17 AM
And Exit Wounds. And Explosive. And then use burrowing bolts. (All can be found in the Complete Warrior).

Stop looking at me like that. It's a good investment. A chain of explosions rip through your foes with every shot. You can take out a legion of mooks in a couple of rounds!

Eventually, everyone listens to Reason...

playswithfire
2008-07-26, 01:20 AM
Eventually, everyone listens to Reason...

As long as you get the newer, less buggy version, anyway

Snow Crash is excellent

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-26, 07:15 AM
Wait, how would explosive exiting burrowing bolts work? It hits him, explodes on impact, and then continues while staying lodged inside?