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DeathQuaker
2008-07-25, 11:14 AM
Hi. I'm planning to run a D&D game in a couple months, 3.5 with house rules. This will be mostly core only (only a handful of already chosen non-core feats and prestige classes), no psionics. Characters will be 10th level. None of these items are debatable.

I'm cleaning up my houserules* and have made some tweaks to some races and classes in an attempt to balance their behavior. I want to make some tweaks to the Monk to make them a more viable player class for more people. I like the monk class and I think there's a lot that can be done with it, but I want to give it a few more advantages.

I'll note I have some grappling houserules that I don't feel like going into that help monks even as they are.

Thoughts include boosting the Hit Die back to 1d10 (it is largely a combat based class, after all) and maybe adding a couple more bonus feats, or alternatively keeping the HD where it is but boost skill points and make it an alternate skill monkey class. Constructive thoughts on that are appreciated.

I also want to lift multiclassing restrictions--I think the class has a lot more to offer if it's easier to multiclass with. But are there any cheese-pitfalls to avoid if I allow this? (Is the Miko Pala-monk that badass?)

I realize on this board just bringing up the word "monk" can lead to flaming and repetitious argument, and I wouldn't ask except that class tweaking just isn't something I'm very good at, so I'm looking for help from my peers on this. Any post consisting of "monks suck", "players of monks suck", or hijacked debates into these areas will be ignored by me.

Constructive comments and suggestions however are greatly appreciated. Thank you

* If by chance you find the ones on my Website, not those. Those are old and need vast revision.

Adumbration
2008-07-25, 11:25 AM
I've heard that giving the monk full base attack bonus progression helps.

Starbuck_II
2008-07-25, 12:32 PM
I want to make some tweaks to the Monk to make them a more viable player class for more people. I like the monk class and I think there's a lot that can be done with it, but I want to give it a few more advantages.

Thoughts include boosting the Hit Die back to 1d10 (it is largely a combat based class, after all) and maybe adding a couple more bonus feats, or alternatively keeping the HD where it is but boost skill points and make it an alternate skill monkey class. Constructive thoughts on that are appreciated.

Monk strengthing Ideas in total I can remember (not saying use all):
1) 1d10 HD
2) Flurrying as standard action (the reason is Monk get speed boost, but can't use flurry is using movement)
3) Monk can use any weapon for flurry
4) Instead of Monk abilities (instead of feat at 1st) can take a Martial Manuever from Tome of Battle (Counting as martial adeopt for that power).
But than Swordsage fulfills this role already so not a often used houserule.
5) Can use +X Guantlets and still recieve unarmed Strike damage bonus and Flurry. (technically the FAQ says yes, but it is ambiguious so solve it by using houserule)
6) Full BAB



I also want to lift multiclassing restrictions--I think the class has a lot more to offer if it's easier to multiclass with. But are there any cheese-pitfalls to avoid if I allow this? (Is the Miko Pala-monk that badass?)


It only makes a great choice Druids and Clerics stronger. More Druid since everyone has an unarmed strikes even animal forms.

Really, it won't hurt balance much.

quiet1mi
2008-07-25, 04:50 PM
by making the monk have a full attack progression you...

allow him to disarm,grapple,trip a martial opponent more reliably
allow the monk to take the shtick of having multiple attacks per round [you will have to give the ranger something because of this]


by keeping the flurry of blows action full round you...

keep the interaction of two weapon fighting and thus strengthen the shtick of the character that hits you multiple times a round
prevent other classes from jut dipping into monk for 1 level and instantly become twice as effective for 1 standard action
make it something special [if you hit someone a lot in a six second increment you will not be able to get out of there]

[remember it is hit and run not hits and run]


also you may want to model the class after the ninja from complete adventurer... use the ki pool system and then you can trade all those useless things like quivering palm that is usable once a week to quivering palm that is costing a lot of ki points...

I also recommend adding class features that are more martial artsy and less random magic.("talking to squirrels" I am looking at you)

arguskos
2008-07-25, 04:59 PM
In my homebrew setting, my monk class has d10's, 6+Int mod skills, and full BAB, and that alone makes people go "ooo, he's not crappy now!" It doesn't make them much more powerful, and avoids any potential balance issues, like changing flurry to a standard action or anything (which seems like it might be a bit powerful sometimes *shrug*).

-argus

Eldariel
2008-07-25, 05:33 PM
Flurry as standard with Monk-weapons is fair and specific. Flurry as standard with any weapons is too good, making Monk an epic dip. My list of fixes:
-Can use Dex for special maneuvers (Grapple et al.)
-Can get full Str to offhand (makes Str-based Monks more efficieny)
-6+Int Skills
-Flurry as Standard, and in lieu of Spring Attack
-Full BAB could be added, although it's not necessary (Trip, for example, doesn't use BAB)


I feel d8 works; d10 would give Monk Fighter HD. I feel Monks should be weaker than Fighters of equal Con as long as their other abilities like mobility and skills make up for it.

Oh, and print Intuitive Attack as a non-Exalted feats to make Wis-based Monks actually doable. Heck, print a feat to use Wis for melee combat maneuvers. And "Improved Weapon Finesse" for Dex to damage (over Shadow Blade; having to pick Shadow Hand-stance makes a straight Monk almost undoable this way).

Oh yeah, and make the 20th level ability do something useful, like DR 10/- or something. It does absolutely nothing, except makes you Banishable as written. Oh yeah, and:
-Wholeness of Body heals 1+Wis times the Monk-level instead of twice the Monk-level.
-Give Monk Reactive Resistance for free (the ability to lower Spell Resistance to acquire buffs et al.)
-Quivering Palm once/DAY + once for every 5 levels or something.
-Abundant Step 1 additional time per day for each 2 Monk-levels you take beyond 12.
-Ki Strike to treat Fists as any metal, not just Adamantine (an oversight, I'd wager).


EDIT: As you can see, pretty much all Monks abilities are broken in terms of just not doing what they're intended, as you can well see from the list. Making all of them work goes a long way to making a Monk work. Add to that the ability to focus on different stats for melee, and the ability to combine Flurry and his speed, and enough skillpoints to not require Int and you suddenly have a completely different animal. I'd gladly play the Monk listed above and probably be able to match a relatively optimized Fighter.

elliott20
2008-07-25, 05:41 PM
fastest way? play a swordsage and call it a monk.

But seriously, (since you said it's core only) I think improving the monk would require you to know exactly what kind of martial arts character do you want? Because depending upon how answer that question, your monk could end up with different house rules. Is it a specific kind of martial arts character (which means you modify some numbers, take off a couple abilities and add a couple more and call it a day) or do you want versatile martial art styles? (which means you potentially would have to do a class overhaul for different power progressions)

monty
2008-07-25, 06:02 PM
It only makes a great choice Druids and Clerics stronger. More Druid since everyone has an unarmed strikes even animal forms.

I would have to disagree that adding anything to a druid other than a druid PrC makes it stronger.

Anyway, it'd be hard to make a monk overpowered. Give it full BAB, d10 HD, and more skill points, and the full casters will still be better than it, at least by 10th level.

Frosty
2008-07-25, 06:07 PM
Anyway, it'd be hard to make a monk overpowered. Give it full BAB, d10 HD, and more skill points

But if we do that, the Fighter and Rogue will complain about how now they're obsolete.

Eldariel
2008-07-25, 06:16 PM
Fhew, a well built Fighter can outfight the Monk I outlined (thanks to the feats), so the Monk needs to make up for that with skills. Fighter could use a fix too, but this Monk and this Fighter with splatbooks would be fairly even. And both would still make for dumb good splashes, which would prolly be a good idea to fix by spreading the opening feats a bit further apart.

As for Rogue, having UMD as a class skill along with Trapfinding (and thus a role to fill), he's actually useful. Don't put him in the same boat as the guys who can just fight in the frontline and even suck at that.


*For record, here's the complete list of changes I suggest for Core Monk as a bandaid fix:

Base Changes
-6+Int Skills
-Maybe some added class skills (Search, Heal, Use Rope?)
-Full BAB

New Abilities
-Can use Dex for special maneuvers (Grapple et al.) around level 6 or so.
-Can get full Str to offhand (makes Str-based Monks more efficient) around level 10 or so.
-Pounce (around level 12-15; after Greater Flurry)

Changes to Abilities
-Flurry as Standard, and in lieu of Spring Attack
-Wholeness of Body heals 1+Wis times the Monk-level instead of twice the Monk-level.
-Give Monk Reactive Resistance for free (the ability to lower Spell Resistance as a standard action; to get buffs et al.) along with Diamond Body on 13
-Quivering Palm once/DAY + once for every 5 levels or something.
-Abundant Step 1 additional time per day for each 2 Monk-levels you take beyond 12.
-Ki Strike to treat Fists as any metal, not just Adamantine (an oversight, I'd wager) when you'd gain Ki Strike (Adamantine), probably give the whole ability on level 12-15.
-Perfect Self grants DR 10/- or something else useful.

New Feats
-Wise Strike (use Wis for attacks with Simple- and Monk Weapons, requires +1 BAB - non-Exalted Intuitive Attack)
-Improved Weapon Finesse (use Dex for damage, requires Weapon Finesse and BAB +1)


There, perfectly playable Monk.

monty
2008-07-25, 06:17 PM
But if we do that, the Fighter and Rogue will complain about how now they're obsolete.

Fighters are already weak, but they'd still have bonus feats. Rogues could still have more skill points (8>6, and you don't see rogues complaining about bards and rangers), potentially skill mastery, and sneak attack, so they would still be better at their intended areas.

Frosty
2008-07-25, 06:19 PM
Well sure the Rogue has a role to play, but I guess they should complain about the Beguiler instead of any other class eg?

tyckspoon
2008-07-25, 06:20 PM
But if we do that, the Fighter and Rogue will complain about how now they're obsolete.

The Fighter was already made obsolete by the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger, at least as a base class; it's good as a two-four level template or prestige class. The Rogue would be fine; he's still got a higher skillpoint base drawn from a better list, so his skillmonkey role is secure (in other words, if giving the Ranger 6+ base skillpoints didn't obsolete the Rogue, neither will giving the Monk 6+ skillpoints.) And his combat abilities would still be decent without being extreme for a class that isn't actually intended to be trading blows with things the way the Monk seems to be.

Although you could help out everybody and not just the Monk with a few changes to the skill system- collapse Hide/Move Silent, Climb/Jump/Tumble, and Spot/Listen into just three skills, and now the Monk's 4+ base points work just fine. The reason he wants 6+ is because 3.5's skill system charges him double or triple just to achieve basic monkish-archetype things like being perceptive, mobile, and stealthy.

monty
2008-07-25, 06:22 PM
Well sure the Rogue has a role to play, but I guess they should complain about the Beguiler instead of any other class eg?

Naturally, but I was just talking about core, since that's what the campaign is. My point was that another semi-skillmonkey won't make the rogue useless.

Eldariel
2008-07-25, 06:40 PM
Actually, I just realized how to solve two problems at once; the lack of a reason to not multiclass out around 6 and the bad capstone. Here:

Give Diamond Soul on 1-6. Early enough to matter and gives you incentive to not multiclass; a powerful ability that rewards you for taking Monk-levels. Also, it gives you a logical, potent capstone:
-Magic Immunity

Have Perfect Self give you Magic Immunity (maybe in addition to DR 10/- or something). That's potent, and since you have Reactive Resistance, you can still get buffed. And since it's on level 20, it really gives you incentive to take Monk-levels all the way and isn't out of synch with level 20 power level.


Also, while we're at fixing the class, the combat style feats could be gained at 2, 5 and 10 instead of 1, 2 and 6. Less dippable, more takeable.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-26, 09:43 AM
Thanks very much, everyone. I don't have time to respond to everyone individually, but I've read the suggestions.

Full BAB definitely seems the way to go (forgot they didn't have that anyway... geez).

I'm probably going to smash together some skills (as mentioned by tyckspoon so that was the plan before) so I may not need to boost skill points, though I might still do so (doubt if there is a rogue player in the party he will feel marginalized--especially since Rogues have enough unique abilities and a broader range of class skills that they've still got a lot of things they can do).

I like Eldariel's idea of changing when the combat style feats take place, though maybe I might add another feat in there somewhere. I'll have to look more closely at the idea of shifting Diamond Soul earlier in the class progression.

Thanks!

ericgrau
2008-07-26, 07:09 PM
Just please don't make the monk into another class. The class revolves around special tactics and target selection. He's all about non-magical battlefield control. He can already do these as well or better than anyone. His monk weapons, extra attacks and other factors provide bonuses that make up for his mid-BAB, and his speed (and skills that may be used as part of movement) is unmatched. He is weak at dealing damage and taking it in return.

Boost what you will, but please don't make him another fighter/barbarian/paladin. He isn't meant to be good at that, and going alone against a melee fighter/barbarian/paladin/monster-warrior he should be weaker. He should be able to zip through the front line and pick off strategic targets and/or make targets easier for his party to take down. Specifically, I don't like full BAB. Again, he already has boosts/advantages to special attacks (and not damage-dealing attacks) that make up for his mid-BAB there.

Eladriel was closest to boosting him without making him something else, I think, and what tyckspoon said about skills may work too.


The Fighter was already made obsolete by the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger

(tangent on the fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, monk and the amazing level of balance that actually exists)

Nope. I've run too many pages of computer programming and calculations and found that the fighter outdoes them all with 4 encounters per day and no prep round, plus his feats can add special tactics.

The barbarian is better when raging at earlier levels, but only gets 1-2 per day. Plus he has other special abilities.

The paladin is stronger only when he gets a free buff round (before combat not during, unless the combat is long), and weaker otherwise. Savings smite-uses also helps boost him higher temporarily. Plus he has other special abilities and non-buff spells. He also needs multiple good stats to avoid lowering his str & con.

Combat-wise, a fighter who simply picks the right feats can mimic or beat a ranger in nearly every single way, but the ranger has skills, spells and other special abilities.

The monk is much worse than all of them in damage-dealing combat, but he is just as strong at special attacks (thanks to various bonuses). A fighter with the right feat selection can match him there but, unlike the monk, he can't select his targets as easily. Plus that often means the monk may be attacking a lower AC. Interestingly enough, my simulations showed that once the monk gets his SR he has the best chance against a caster even when relying on his mediocre direct-damage. Though, given the competition's effectiveness against casters, that might not be saying much.

Greg
2008-07-26, 08:30 PM
I had an idea for flurry which, to me, seems more balanced than making it a standard action. Instead of modifying the flurry part, modify the bonus movement so that it is additional movement which may be taken as a free action. This would allow a monk with 3+ levels to move 10+ft and use flurry (preventing 1-level dips).

The other problem with monks is their MAD. They NEED a decent score in all attributes other than CHA. I would suggest adding WIS to attack rolls to mitigate this somewhat (but keep their BAB as it is). 6+INT skills would also help here. CON is still important, as is DEX (to an extent, as a lot of movement skills are linked to DEX). WIS would become more important. However, it removes STR as a necessity, and curbs the need for INT for skills.

ericgrau
2008-07-26, 10:11 PM
I'd be interested to see if a standard-action flurry idea pans out. It seems like one is being formed here. I'm still waiting on further discussion, as I'm not sure what to think of it.

IMO monks don't really suffer from MAD. They really need str, str and str so they can land their special attacks. And con, but that's important for every class. Dex is more or less the same for them as it is for, say, a ranger or rogue or wizard, and wis does less than dex. Heck, they can't even make much use of ranged weapons. Int likewise is nice to have for more skills, but you can cover the basics with 4-5 skills.

Siosilvar
2008-07-26, 10:21 PM
I'd be interested to see if a standard-action flurry idea pans out. It seems like one is being formed here. I'm still waiting on further discussion, as I'm not sure what to think of it.

IMO monks don't really suffer from MAD. They really need str, str and str so they can land their special attacks. And con, but that's important for every class. Dex is more or less the same for them as it is for, say, a ranger or rogue or wizard, and wis does less than dex. Heck, they can't even make much use of ranged weapons. Int likewise is nice to have for more skills, but you can cover the basics with 4-5 skills.

Dex for rogues is basically their primary stat. It affects their armor class, attack rolls (ranged/weapon finesse), hide and move silently, and so on.

ericgrau
2008-07-26, 11:26 PM
Yeah, I meant for AC. That's why I stuck rangers and wizards on the list, to help clarify.

dman11235
2008-07-26, 11:38 PM
Go into my Handy Haversack and click on the link for the Martial Artist. Fixed monk. Just make sure to take the suggestions I made in the last post. Or, alternatively, go here to these boards (www.brilliantgameologists.com) and check out my monk handbook in the handbook forum (Min/Max:Handbooks:Monk Handbook). That lets you play an un-altered monk efficiently.

For a simple fix (hey, even with my handbook) full BAB, flurry as a standard action, and d10 HD are popular "fixes" that treat only some symptoms. Most of the problems with the class are actually the armor class issue (and defense in general), and the utter lack of good design, which are things not easily fixed without drastically changing the class. As a result, the class remains 6 levels long.

thegurullamen
2008-07-27, 01:26 AM
I recommend checking out the Monk from the Pathfinder RPG, (which is essentially D&D 3.5 with some major tweaks. It's in Alpha at the moment and free to everyone in .pdf form.)

Check it out at http://www.paizo.com under the "Pathfinder" heading.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-27, 08:32 AM
Thanks, Dman---that's a handy list in general and it looks like a good class build.

thegurullamen--I'll also look at that. A couple of my players are interested in Pathfinder, so I'll hear their thoughts on that as well.

Thanks again all to those I have not directly responded to. Everything's been helpful in this thread.

ericgrau
2008-07-27, 05:41 PM
There are other threads on Pathfinder already, so it'd be better to dig those up and I'll be brief. IMO it's horrible: They seem to have no head for numbers (the total lack of in-house playtesting shows), and it seems more like an over-complicated set of house-rules than a seperate or even upgraded gaming system. So even if it was done more carefully it's far from an overhaul. It seems to have gained most of its popularity as an alternative to 4e with thread titles like "for those who want to keep playing 3.5e...". I really didn't hear much/anything about it before 4e.

elliott20
2008-07-27, 06:29 PM
I still think it helps to know what the OP wanted to get from the monk class to begin with. Right now, people are talking about improving the monk and what they should or should not do to improve the monk but fact of the matter is, no matter what they do, it's going to be limited in it's own way. The bigger question is what do you see monk's doing well? Not in the sense of monks that were already defined by the 3.5E class, but the actual name monks. What does the name denote? what is it you're trying to achieve?

holywhippet
2008-07-27, 06:52 PM
To be honest I don't think monks are weak when considered as a whole, it's just that some of their benefits don't get called upon as often as some of the benefits of other classes. High saving throws, evasion and a bunch of resistances and immunities as they gain levels make them quite hard to kill.

The low AC and lower hit dice are the main weaknesses of the monk - it makes it hard for them to be an effective in melee or ranged combat as they tend to get hit more often. There are a variety of ways to fix this - a magical item that casts mage armour or shield once or twice a day. You could also improve the AC bonus they get from DEX and/or WIS.

The slower BAB progression isn't a problem if you think about it. The monk gets flurry of blows and later on greater flurry of blows. Having less of an attack bonus is negated by being able to take an extra swing or two at the enemy.

its_all_ogre
2008-07-27, 07:39 PM
my fix was simple for my campaign:
full bab as a given.
i made two weapon fighting and flurry available as a standard action, both are generally weak so this does not massively power up these options.
i also made monks able to use their wisdom in place of strength for combat purposes. so wis modifier to hit rolls, damage rolls and grapple rolls. also it can be used for trips/disarms or anything related.
why?
because wisdom represents, to me, applied knowledge...the monk punches hurt lots because they target nerve endings, vulcan neck pinches etc etc

leave hps and skill points where they are and they do just fine.
also means tey can look perfectly non-descript and yet be a kick ass in a fight!

dman11235
2008-07-27, 07:47 PM
Those defenses you speak of don't matter. They have saves of 6 higher than someone else straight classes...woohoo? Immune to poison and disease...who uses them? Evasion is nice, but not great, and you can get it in a ring, but really, AoE damage isn't a good way to generally kill things. Diamond Soul...spell resistance is both a boon and an even bigger bane. Since you can't reliably get buffs from your party or healing in order to have a good chance to prevent enemy spells from affecting you, or not have a good chance of enemy spells affecting you, this is a bad ability to have. And slow fall if replaced by a 1st level spell or a 2,000 gp ring, assuming you don't have flight (which you will).

And the BAB issue...it's a melee class....without full BAB...and grapple relies on BAB...as do many other things... What flurry is doing then is not adding attacks...it's giving you one extra attack at level 20 at a -5 to hit for all attacks, and a +5 for one. That last one won't hit, and the second to last probably won't, and the first three are at a decent chance to hit. Instead of a full BAB class with two that will hit and one that probably won't and one that won't.

I go in depth into these issues and how to minimize/eliminate the problems with the class in my handbook.

Cainen
2008-07-27, 07:54 PM
Power Attacking unarmed counts as Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon - so it stings. Big time.

Full BAB progression, and abilities that scale more.

Flurry of Blows can be used as a standard action, so they're superior skirmishers - give them the ability to avoid AoOs, too.

Greg
2008-07-28, 05:17 AM
Flurry of blows as a standard action would be a bit overpowered - I'd say give them their extra movement as a free action to let them use flurry of blows, but give it some limits.

Ossian
2008-07-28, 05:32 AM
I am in the thin crowd of the "monks ar ok as they are". I admit there are valid points against this stance, but that belongs to another couple of dozens different threads. It pretty much depends on what sort of campaign they are facing. If you have wizards like cookies and trolls in large bands every now and then, well, yeah, maybe if you want to give your monk player the same share of fun and glory a fix is in order. Still, if I look at Martial Arts movies (I hope realism is not an issue for you, since you are playing D&D anyway) I can easily picture even the most badass heroes as mid level core monks, no tweaks no fix no HR. The only exception is, of course, Bruce. I know I am not naming him in vain, because is being a lvl 40 epic monk is relevant to the discussion.

This said, I would simply enhance the defensiveness of your monk, if you really want to tweak it. It's a level 10 campaign, after all. You can easily have a feat heavy Monk 10- Ftr 2 (or 6/4). Also Monk/Druid is neat. In general, multiclassing to non-armor heavy classes is better. In the complete arcane, if you factor in the Warlock and some PrC you can basically use your monk to go all Dragon Ball Z, especially if you use a "Battle Sorcerer" class varian (also found in the srd under unearthed arcana).

So, to put it simply, forget the multiclass rule. I doubt anyone on Earth has ever enforced it anyway. It makes sense in some background related ways, but that's that. If a martial artist pursues the ways of Magic and takes a lvl in Wiz., well maybe. Other than that, all multiclassing are kosher to me, even to Sorc.


d10 HD? Nah. They are martial artists, not space marines
Full BAB? Nah again, especially starting at level 10. No need for that
Standard flurry? Already answered


Just make sure they have access to a periapt of Wisdom and increase, if you need, the progression of Class Defense bonuses (so as to fit one extra increment in the 10 levels of your character) and possibly, if you really have to, shift the unarmed damage progression 1 die up (d4 to d6 etc..).

6 skill points per level can be a good alternative to the above, but that depends on the type of campaign. If it is a slaughterhouse campaign, skills become less useful.

O.

Drider
2008-07-28, 06:09 AM
What our group did with monks was making a list of 9 abilities, don't remember them all, but
1: full bab
2: d10 hitdie
3: ability to "dodge" an attack after the attack roll 3/day
4: spit 30 feet as an "attack"
5: gauntlets that can be enchanted
6: 1/day create 2 clones of yourself that do whatever you do that last for 3 rounds(essentially tripling your Potential damage, but you could focus inward with meditation beforehand and make them do something independant)
7: Become an earth/wind/water/fire elemental for an hour. The size depended on monk levels.
8: Ki key, which let a monk see through anything that was a "door" and unlock it 1/day.
I forgot what the other thing was, but you could pick 3, or 4 if you had a very good story. It gave each monk some variety.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-28, 07:21 AM
I still think it helps to know what the OP wanted to get from the monk class to begin with.

I'm doing rough house rules for my players, so I'm not going for any specific build. In practice (i.e., in games I've actually played, not "arena tests"), I've seen monks as effective in mobility and hand to hand combat, but very restricted to that, and it's easy to minimize their effectiveness even in that if you're being a mean GM.

I don't necessarily want to expand out of that by making them jacks-of-all-trades or anything, but I suppose what I want is 1) to make sure that their strengths are at truly the top of their game--so, excellent at hand-to-hand? Then they should have full BAB, etc.. 2) See if there's a way I can make sure they also can provide some party support outside of combat, or in a combat where their abilities aren't going to shine... which is why I was considering minor tweaks to skills, or altering feat access.

Still reading everything else. (And thanks again for a great discussion!)

Greg
2008-07-28, 08:59 AM
I suppose what I want is 1) to make sure that their strengths are at truly the top of their game--so, excellent at hand-to-hand? Then they should have full BAB, etc.. 2) See if there's a way I can make sure they also can provide some party support outside of combat, or in a combat where their abilities aren't going to shine... which is why I was considering minor tweaks to skills, or altering feat access.
1) I'm not sure about full BAB - I'd say allowing replacing STR with WIS for melee attacks would be enough. In addition, I would say that if they focus for a round (i.e. as a full round action), they can replace (or maybe just add their WIS modifier) any stat modifier for their WIS modifier for a specific kind of check (STR for bursting bonds, CON for exhaustion, as well as skill checks) for 1 min/level. This a)helps reduce their MAD and b)would help them fill other party roles. They would have to concentrate for a full round to change which check to apply the bonus to. Maybe allow this to progress too boosting up to 4 or 5 skills by level 20.

2)6 skill points/level are a must. I'd add sleight of hand, knowledge (history) and speak language to their class skills. Possibly also use rope. Also the WIS bonus thing would feed into here.

Starbuck_II
2008-07-28, 12:26 PM
Flurry of blows as a standard action would be a bit overpowered - I'd say give them their extra movement as a free action to let them use flurry of blows, but give it some limits.

What balances issue does flurry as a standard action show? Have you tried it in a sample battle/playtesting?

I mean, currently a Monk is this:
1) Move than attack once.
2) Full Attack (Flurry) and 5 foot step
3) Double move
4) Attack than move

This houserule would change them to:
1) Move than Flurry
2) Flurry than 5 foot step
3) double move
4) Flurry than move.

I can't see an issue.

ericgrau
2008-07-28, 01:12 PM
I dunno man, this whole topic confuses me. I know that all the people I see who want to play monks online completely ignore most of his class features. I usually see the same in real life too. At the same time, I can't say whether or not he'll be balanced if properly utilized.

Ideally we'd make up some mock encounters with a party. Control characters like monks, battlefield control casters (and maybe certain fighters?) work best in a party. Or else as single target assasins. But that takes a bit of work. Until I can find a gaming group in Southern California and play, say, 2-3 entire campaigns as a monk I'm still stuck. I started one monk but that campaign never got far, and the DM didn't even select class features for his (pre-made) character sheet.

Again, the main issue I see among monks is that players don't utilize their class features. If anyone wants to test out a fully utlized monk, I'll list out the class features with explanations/strat:

Monk Abilities
Mobility Skills: balance, climb, escape artist, hide, jump, listen, move silently, spot, swim, tumble. As you can see, the vast majority of the monk's skills are geared towards getting around. Only the monk, rogue and bard have tumble.

Skills to Understand Magic: knowledge(arcana), knowledge(religion). This seems to be mostly directed at casters. Aha, holy symbol! It's a cleric! Aha, scrolls! It's a mage!

Negotiation Skills: Diplomacy, sense motive. I honestly have no idea why he has these, but it's a bonus in an RP campaign I guess.

Concentration Skill: None of the monk's skills provoke attacks of opportunity, so I have no idea why he has this. RP?

Speed: Synergizes wonderfully with his mobility skills, which are almost alwaysy done as part of movement. The monk can go almost anywhere and run away without getting caught (especially when combined with deflect arrows, SR, high touch AC and saves). Also gives a huge boost to jump checks.

Slow Fall: Ditto, more mobility

Flurry of Blows: If you watch the monk's flurry BAB progression from levels 1 to 12, you'll notice that he gets a solid +1 per level, and essentially a flat -3 (compared to another full BAB class). For full attacks at levels 1-12, the monk already is a full BAB class. He just has a -3 penalty in exchange for his extra 1-2 attacks. Clearly a monk is meant to full attack, while his AB is only so-so at single attacks (except special attacks, see weapon proficiencies section). He can full attack when:
1. The baddy is also melee.
2. The baddy is tripped. The baddy provokes two full AB AoO's if he tries to get up and get away, plus the monk's regular full AB single attack on his turn. The monk may select combat reflexes and improved trip as bonus feats. So either the baddy eats the full attack or gets hit 3 times at full AB, which is even worse.
3. He is grappling. Nothing keeps you from full attacking every single round during a grapple. Most options during a grapple are attack actions, in fact.
4. The baddy is up against a wall. Almost nothing can outrun a monk's speed and mobility.

Good Magic Resistance: The monk gets good saves, evasion, high touch AC and SR later on. It seems he is meant to avoid magic. Even if the monk uses none of his other abilities, my own experiments showed that no non-caster w/o SR even comes close to a monk with SR against a caster (though many argue no non-caster can beat a caster). Also note that the main resistance, the SR, triggers at level 13, right when the monk doesn't get full BAB anymore.

Bonus Feats: The monk's bonus feats are all geared around special attacks, i.e. battlefield control.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Ah, the critical but most overlooked class feature. Monks are proficient with FIVE exotic weapons, and not much else, in fact (just some basics). And all five are "monk weapons" so they can be used as part of a flurry.

Kama: A kama may be used to trip without taking an attack of opportunity nor risking a counter-trip. This is the ONLY tripping weapon you can use in one hand. It's light even. Light and two handed weapons do NOT give penalties/bonuses to tripping. Tripping is just a touch attack followed by an opposed strength check, so the monk's BAB doesn't play any real role. But his flurry does.

Nunchaku: +2 to disarm attacks. This more than offset's the monk's -3 vs. full BAB classes, mentioned above. And he can flurry.

Sai: +4 to disarm attacks. Based on comments from real-world sai users (though they gave a lot more detail than what's necessary for d&d), I'd say it's very safe to assume that this +4 replaces not stacks with the usual -4 to disarming with a light weapon. A literal interpretation of the rules says the same thing, IMO. This more than offset's the monk's -3 vs. full BAB classes, mentioned above. And he can flurry.

Shuriken: Fills the flurry range attacks hole. Not much to see here. Essentially gives the monk a bow except only the ammo can be buffed.

Siangham: fills the flurry piercing damage hole, nothing to see here.

Note that the weapons completely remove any BAB disadvantage the monk might have when disarming, and tripping has no disadvantage to begin with. Plus he can flurry. That only leaves grapple. Initiating a grapple requires a touch attack followed by an opposed grapple check, followed by unarmed strike damage. That's a trivial roll, followed by BAB + strength, which is the same as the monk's melee AB, or higher if he has improved grapple. That's right, a monk with improved grapple who flurries grapple attempts (followed by grapple checks to deal damage) does more damage than a monk who flurries unarmed attacks! So a monk essentially gets grappling for free as part of his normal attacks! During the grapple he likewise takes advantage of his unarmed damage.

Stunning fist is meant to be a similar option to grapple (it's a free action anyway), so I won't get into it here. I don't know nor want to argue whether or not it's useful. Let's just say that if your monk is hitting stuff unarmed and not getting something for free on top of it, you are playing him very, very poorly. Not to mention it leaves your low AC open to attack and deals sub-par damage at all levels. Even at high levels, other PCs get more from magic weapons.

AC Bonuses, Mundane Resistances,Ki Strike: These aren't really monk advantages so much as filling holes, it seems. In the end the AC bonus gives the monk a better touch AC but still a very low regular AC compared to other classes. Ya, differences in gear can change anything, but apples to apples this is true.

Summary: the monk is on par with full BAB classes when he uses special attacks, and he is well beyond them when he uses both special attacks and flurries. He also has unmatched speed & mobility, to pick the right target to special attack, and to get away from the wrong ones or when hurt. Generally his AC is very low, but his magical defenses are very high. Full attacking for damage only is very dumb because - besides being weak - at the very least you could be getting a special attack (grapple or maybe stunning fist) on top of the damage for free. Other class features just seem to be there to fill holes to help the monk keep up with others.

Misc Stuff Not In Class Description
Selecting Gear: Stat boosters are good, like every class. Especially strength, which the monk uses for everything (MAD?? Nonsense!). Ioun stone stat boosters are expensive but handy if you don't have an open item slot. The standard AC stuff is good too. Use bracers of armor in place of armor enhancements, plus a ring of protection, dusty rose prism ioun stone, and perhaps an amulet of natural armor. A monk's belt gives another +1 and more unarmed damage, at higher levels. Mobility/skill items - both permanent and expendable - are wonderful for the monk. One of the many items that grants flight might be necessary at higher levels. +X weapon enchantments may help disarming, but that's about it. So you may want to use the extra gold on the other things mentioned, or give it to your party.

Synergy: The monk's battlefield control, via special attacks & mobility, synergizes well with a party. He can also scout, set up flanks, benefit very well from magic buffs, help the party retreat and more, I'm sure.

There may be other monk strats out there, monk builds that use only a few actual levels of monk, builds to give him what he "should" have, etc., etc. But I'm just explaining the abilities as given in the basic class. This should be the real starting point for any evaluation or fix. I think people just need to start playing him for what he really is: Jackie Chan. He's not at all tougher than his opponents, but he's still fast and tricky enough to beat them (ideally, anyway).

Here's some quick reference rules (i.e., "cheat sheet") stuff that may help with the skills and special attacks (http://www.geocities.com/pleasespamme2004/dnd/tangibles/action_cards_and_rule_sheets.zip) (.ZIP)

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-28, 01:20 PM
gotta fix his m/a/d/ tho, cause he can''t do stuff otherwise.

i think monks should sub. their wis mod for str. should help

ericgrau
2008-07-28, 01:21 PM
See spoiler. That would essentially only give +2 to +3 AC anyway. Maybe 2-3 (out of 5 to 25!) stunning fist attempts. Might as well just give him the AC boost and call it a day.

str: Critical for all major abilities
con: about as important as a wizard's con
dex: about as important as a wizard's dex
wis: less important than a wizard's dex
int: about as or less important than a ranger's int
cha: dump

All but str are less important for him than a ranger. As far as I know, the paladin is the only m/a/d class. Or else you could call most classes m/a/d. Except maybe the fighter and barbarian. Even then they might want dex, int and wis for AB/AC/feats/skills/saves.

Sir Giacomo
2008-07-28, 03:25 PM
oh ericgrau and ossian, where have you been in my thread? :smallsmile:*

Anyhow, for the OP: a campaign close to core rules starting at level 10 can offer various things to make monks stronger:
- in case of players liking to use grappling tactics, ban/lower the availability of the freedom of movement spell and make huge or larger creatures quite rare. Also make sure that everyone agrees to the rule of grapple checks affected by flurry of blows (i.e. more grapple checks available).
- in case of players liking to play mage banes, give them UMD and spellcraft as class abilities (see my sig below on what a monk can do with them). Leaving them as it is would be OK, but this way you'd have a reasonable chance for 10th level characters to be able to auto-activate wands and recognise what casters do, without said players having to give up on combat feats to also do other stuff with more fun.
- in case players would love to do true wuxia stuff without waving around wands or some such, use the same mechanics - but different fluff (belts or tattoos takin the place of wand effects, for instance).
- if you wish to provide a more mystical/religious aspect to the monk class, allow the sacred fist prestige class or allow free multiclassing of paladin, cleric and monk.
- similarly, multiclassing options with the ascetic feats (I guess in complete scoundrel sourcebook, not sure) would also be good; for roguish monks or monks getting crazy with barbarian level dip etc.
- EDIT: an interesting concept is also the exalted monk with vow of poverty (and even peace?). But may be too overpowered in a near-core-only environment.

Having said that, I guess that allowing flurry/full round attack AND a move in one round would be too overpowered. Think on it: the monk has the most attacks in the game, and the highest move. With roughly core rules, this is almost unbeatable at high levels in combat in terms of damage output reliability.

- Giacomo

* Joker Monk Guide Sequel will be up soon

Greg
2008-07-28, 06:33 PM
What balances issue does flurry as a standard action show? Have you tried it in a sample battle/playtesting?

I mean, currently a Monk is this:
1) Move than attack once.
2) Full Attack (Flurry) and 5 foot step
3) Double move
4) Attack than move

This houserule would change them to:
1) Move than Flurry
2) Flurry than 5 foot step
3) double move
4) Flurry than move.

I can't see an issue.
I just think that allowing a monk to move 60ft (as a level 10 human monk) AND make 3 attacks is stretching it a bit. The fact that he would be able to make 2-5 attacks in the time it takes any other class to make 1 attack could increase the power of flurry of blows to well above the monk's other abilities (disregarding class balances). IMO, a monk should not be about pounding enemies into jelly with their fists, but using adaptive tactics, grappling, tripping or disarming specific enemies.

Another problem with the monk class is # per day/week abilities - abundant step, quivering palm and empty body. People would hesitate to use them, as they might need them in another encounter - perhaps remove the restriction, but make them make a concentration check (with WIS instead of CON added) to use them - kind of focus abilities.

Starbuck_II
2008-07-28, 06:43 PM
I just think that allowing a monk to move 60ft (as a level 10 human monk) AND make 3 attacks is stretching it a bit. The fact that he would be able to make 2-5 attacks in the time it takes any other class to make 1 attack could increase the power of flurry of blows to well above the monk's other abilities (disregarding class balances). IMO, a monk should not be about pounding enemies into jelly with their fists, but using adaptive tactics, grappling, tripping or disarming specific enemies.

I thought the point of this thread was to increase a Monks power...
First, just because you do not see a Monk as a melee warrior who pounds enemies doesn't mean others don't.
Second, only call this overpowered if you actually mean that it is too powerful.
If you meant, that monks shouldn't be physical warrior but tactical warriors: just say that. Saying something instead of implying it helps others understand what you mean.

I would never have known you wanted Monks to be a tactical warrior before this second.



Another problem with the monk class is # per day/week abilities - abundant step, quivering palm and empty body. People would hesitate to use them, as they might need them in another encounter - perhaps remove the restriction, but make them make a concentration check (with WIS instead of CON added) to use them - kind of focus abilities.

No, what needs to be done is just make them per encounter (as in between every 5 minutes of rest).

Its not like Quivering palm is stronger than any Wizard/other spellcasting death spell. DC will likely be lower 70% of tiomer (unless un-optimized spellcaster used as comparison)

ericgrau
2008-07-28, 07:50 PM
FWIW, I don't see a monk as a melee warrior who pounds enemies either. That was my whole point earlier. He is tactical not damaging, as given in the PHB anyway.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 09:49 PM
* Joker Monk Guide Sequel will be up soon

I'm sure it'll be a vast improvement over the first. It'd almost have to be. :smallwink:

Guyr Adamantine
2008-07-28, 10:17 PM
I'm sure it'll be a vast improvement over the first. It'd almost have to be. :smallwink:

Well, if you follow the rule of sequels...

No.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 10:21 PM
Well, if you follow the rule of sequels...

No.

I'm just trying to be optimistic. Someone has to be.

holywhippet
2008-07-28, 11:00 PM
Diamond Soul...spell resistance is both a boon and an even bigger bane. Since you can't reliably get buffs from your party or healing in order to have a good chance to prevent enemy spells from affecting you, or not have a good chance of enemy spells affecting you, this is a bad ability to have. And slow fall if replaced by a 1st level spell or a 2,000 gp ring, assuming you don't have flight (which you will).

I'm not sure about that. For one thing, spell resistance can be lowered as a standard action to let any spell through. So pre-fight buffing is fine. Receiving beneficial spells during a fight might be a different matter though. You could lower your spell resistance and hope for the best. I'm not 100% sure that beneficial spells will always be blocked though. The description says that your own spells, items and abilities aren't stopped by spell resistance. That suggests things like potions will still work and unless you made them yourself they are coming from another person.

I suppose an important question is what you are trying to balance the monk class against. If you balance them against a standard fighter, you have the problem that a standard fighter is underpowered compared to other classes.

tyckspoon
2008-07-28, 11:52 PM
I'm not sure about that. For one thing, spell resistance can be lowered as a standard action to let any spell through. So pre-fight buffing is fine. Receiving beneficial spells during a fight might be a different matter though. You could lower your spell resistance and hope for the best. I'm not 100% sure that beneficial spells will always be blocked though. The description says that your own spells, items and abilities aren't stopped by spell resistance. That suggests things like potions will still work and unless you made them yourself they are coming from another person.


Potions definitely work- the rules for them say that the person who drinks the potion is considered the caster of the spell, so that skips the SR because 'you' are casting it. Which is nice, because otherwise the default lowest-possible-caster level potion would have a very hard time breaking the resistance. Unfortunately by the time you get Diamond Soul you probably aren't relying on potions much any more.. they're almost always low caster level (so low duration and weak effects), only go up to level 3 spells, and are cost-inefficent ways to get those spells anyway. As for other items.. worn items work normally, Wondrous Items that cast effects work normally (as best I can tell), and the normal monk can't use wands and scrolls. Which thankfully means I don't have to try and figure out who or what is considered to be the caster for those. :smallbiggrin: (I think it's probably the character for spell completion items and the item for spell triggers.)

Talic
2008-07-29, 12:48 AM
See spoiler. That would essentially only give +2 to +3 AC anyway. Maybe 2-3 (out of 5 to 25!) stunning fist attempts. Might as well just give him the AC boost and call it a day.

str: Critical for all major abilities
con: about as important as a wizard's con
dex: about as important as a wizard's dex
wis: less important than a wizard's dex
int: about as or less important than a ranger's int
cha: dump

All but str are less important for him than a ranger. As far as I know, the paladin is the only m/a/d class. Or else you could call most classes m/a/d. Except maybe the fighter and barbarian. Even then they might want dex, int and wis for AB/AC/feats/skills/saves.

You want to know a true SAD test? Here it is. 15, 10, 10, 8, 8, 8
Put those stats in a character and see if it's playable.

Wizard.
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 15
Wis 8
Cha 8

That's playable. It's not insanely strong (no class with those stats would be), but the wizard can survive at all levels of play. He can cast up to 9th level magic, provided stat boosts go to int. Somewhat vulnerable to attack, yes, but with a total stat pool modifier of -1, that's to be expected.

As for Dex and con being as important for a monk as a wizard? WRONG. Wizards are a back line combatant that stays out of melee. Their dex and con are secondary. It would be more accurate to say the following:

str: As important for abilities as a rogue
con: About as important as a rogue's con
dex: about as important as a rogue's dex
wis: About as important as a ranger's wis
int: about as important as a ranger's int
cha: dump

Why? In combat, the rogue's skillset and light armoring render it to a light fighter role, much like a rogue. Str is somewhat important, but can be gotten by without a whole lot. Weapon Finesse can substitute for hitting, and increased damage dice through feats can mitigate the lowered damage.

Con: While a monk isn't as Con intensive as a fighter, it IS expected to be on the front line in combat, at least a decent portion of the time, due to the limited range of its primary attacks. Exposing yourself to occasional hits is most on par with the threat level a rogue would encounter.

Dex: Again, many monk skills key off of this, including defensive ones such as hide and move silently, AC, and reflex save. Evasion class ability tied to this, also. Important skill, as it's one of the only two ways to gain AC with a monk.

Int: The monk has a wide selection of skills, and only a modest number of points. This is similar to the Ranger, adn the monk benefits from skill points about as much.

Wis: Monk abilities key off this. AC, Will save, notably. As monks give up Armor proficiencies for this (and combat abilities), it would be about as silly to completely neglect as for a rogue to go unarmored. Still, importance is secondary, and likely can get by with 12-14, which is on par with a ranger's need (rangers need it for spellcasting)

Cha: Can be done without, as it can with many characters.

To say that a paladin is more MAD than a monk is craziness.
Strength - Slightly less important than for a fighter, but good to have. (secondary)
Dex - Can be Dump
Con - About on par with fighter (secondary)
Int - Not very important, 10-12 will get you by. (dump)
Wis - About as important as Ranger, for the same reasons (secondary)
Cha - Important. Tied to Saves, Healing, and turning.

So, paladin: 1 important, 3 secondary, 2 dump
Monk: 1 important, 4 secondary, 1 dump.

Greg
2008-07-29, 05:30 AM
I thought the point of this thread was to increase a Monks power...
First, just because you do not see a Monk as a melee warrior who pounds enemies doesn't mean others don't.
That's why I said IMO. :smalltongue:


Second, only call this overpowered if you actually mean that it is too powerful.
If you meant, that monks shouldn't be physical warrior but tactical warriors: just say that. Saying something instead of implying it helps others understand what you mean.
By overpowered, I meant that it seriously alters the balance within the monk's own attacks. I didn't use the term "tactical warrior" because I've seen that in altogether different contexts.


No, what needs to be done is just make them per encounter (as in between every 5 minutes of rest).
The poster specified 3.5e, not 4e. However, I've had a new idea on that.

Looking at the psionic rules for concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm), we see "gain psionic focus" with a DC of 20. I'm unsure what the DC should be for a monk, but using similar rules to "charge up" special monk attacks could be in keeping with the idea of the class.

ericgrau
2008-07-29, 02:36 PM
Talic:
A properly played monk disables not damages (unless combined with disabling), and moves a lot, so he shouldn't be getting attacked much either or he can get away if he does. Ideally, anyway. Just like ideally the wizard tries to hide. Everyone keeps saying how critical con is for a wizard, with reason because any smart group of monsters will focus attacks on him. And I'm sure they'll attack the monk somehow too. And a +1 or +2 to AC won't change things much for either, though it helps. And really con is huge for both of them.

By your method of reasoning, the wizard has as many secondary stats as the paladin. You need to rate the importance of the "secondary" stats. A wizard can put a 15 in his caster stat and it'll work, though he'll be quite fragile and sub-optimal. A monk could likewise just put a 15 in strength and work out alright, though he'd be sub-optimal.

A paladin, OTOH, with a 15, some 10's and some low stats is completely and utterly screwed. He's much better off playing a fighter or barbarian. Either he puts the 15 in strength and becomes a fighter without bonus feats, or he puts it in wis and becomes a warrior that has to buff himself just to become a fighter without bonus feats, or he puts it in cha and he gets... saves and some weak turning. He also gets a +2 to smite attacks, which he would have got anyway if he put it in strength.

Sir Giacomo
2008-07-30, 01:48 PM
Monk

STR 15
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 8
WIS 8
CHR 8
Choose grappling tactics, put stat gains into STR. You have good saves, so you do not need WIS/DEX/CON that much for those. You grapple, so AC is not that important (against most creatures, watch out for those pesky rakes!:smallwink:)
You grapple, so opponent damage is not as high vs your fragile hp.
WIS 8? Get a leather armour in the beginning until you have +2 monk bonus AC and/or good flurry attacks. Note that at WIS penalty, you do not receive a penalty to AC.
INT 8? Be a human and you still have 4 skill points/lvl. Just one behind the human INT 15 wizard.Enough to pull off being stealthy (not to mention that your high move bonus does not depend on any stat).
CHR 8? Well...you can even be a UMD:smallwink: joker monk with that...

Anyhow. Yep, Talic SAD check easily made.

Now to surpass that, let us get the 0AD check. 0-point buy.
Wizard builds, please...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Deth Muncher
2008-07-30, 01:54 PM
Monk

STR 15
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 8
WIS 8
CHR 8
Choose grappling tactics, put stat gains into STR. You have good saves, so you do not need WIS/DEX/CON that much for those. You grapple, so AC is not that important (against most creatures, watch out for those pesky rakes!:smallwink:)
You grapple, so opponent damage is not as high vs your fragile hp.
WIS 8? Get a leather armour in the beginning until you have +2 monk bonus AC and/or good flurry attacks. Note that at WIS penalty, you do not receive a penalty to AC.
INT 8? Be a human and you still have 4 skill points/lvl. Just one behind the human INT 15 wizard.Enough to pull off being stealthy (not to mention that your high move bonus does not depend on any stat).
CHR 8? Well...you can even be a UMD:smallwink: joker monk with that...

Anyhow. Yep, Talic SAD check easily made.

Now to surpass that, let us get the 0AD check. 0-point buy.
Wizard builds, please...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Sleep DC: 13

Monk will save: +2

Chance of failure: 55%

Whup de frikkin' do.

EDIT: And Kord help you, Giacomo, if it's a Grey elf with Spell Focus.

SUPER DOUBLE EDIT: Actually, due to Wis, your Will save is only a +1. Which equals a 60% chance of fail.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-30, 01:58 PM
wizard could go 8, 10, 10, 15, 8, 8

add spell focus for dc 14 sleep

ericgrau
2008-07-30, 02:33 PM
Sleep DC: 13

Monk will save: +2

Chance of failure: 55%

Whup de frikkin' do.

EDIT: And Kord help you, Giacomo, if it's a Grey elf with Spell Focus.

SUPER DOUBLE EDIT: Actually, due to Wis, your Will save is only a +1. Which equals a 60% chance of fail.

Rather meaningless unless you also find the 1st level wizard's chance of getting caught in a grapple. I mean, either player has a 50:50 chance of going 1st, and at this level he isn't dimension dooring out of it, nor casting any useful spells (they all have somatic components except true strike, which does fairly useless damage over the span of 2 rounds, assuming he even makes his concentration check)

Let's see, the wizard has a touch AC of 10.
The monk has an AB of +2. With improved grapple (monk bonus feat), his grapple modifier is +6. So he has a 65% chance of hitting the wizard on his touch attack and an 82% chance of winning the grapple, for an overall chance of success of 53%.

But, unlike the wizard, he gets retries. So if the wizard fails his sleep spell(s), he's pretty much hosed. Overall that puts his chance of victory at around 75%. Unless the wizard honestly just prepared sleep twice in expectation of fighting a humanoid and nothing else. Then it's still slightly in the monk's favor, but not as bad.

Like the grey elf/spell focus, the monk can get bonuses from being a half-orc or orc.

And this shows that a monk 1 with SAD stats usually beats a wizard 1 with SAD stats, which means....?? Yeah, just forget it. In the future please don't make your comparisons using just one side of a coin.

Like this:
Cowboy 1: "I have a gun."
Cowboy 2: "I have a gun."
Cowboy 1: "Haha! I'm a crack shot. I hit 90% of the time. That means I have a 90% chance of winning this duel!"
Cowboy 2: "..."

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-30, 02:43 PM
sleep can be used further away than grappling tho and is going to be behind soemone

giacomo says his save is enough,but it isn't

[quote]unless the wizard honestly just prepared sleep twice in expectation of fighting a humanoid and nothing else.[quote]
grease
sleep
color spary

wizard still useful out of combat because he can cast spells.. what else can the monk do?

ericgrau
2008-07-30, 02:47 PM
Monks have stealth, dungeons are cramped, the range on a charge is long, etc. For the rare fights that start 70 feet or so away, that might make sense.

Grease will be fairly useless, and color spray would be better replaced with a 2nd sleep anyway. I don't see much point most days, unless you're fighting elves or something and you're not afraid of melee range. Or you plan on fighting two creatures side by side or in a line (and if you're in such an incredibly cramped area, why depend on range??). Yeah... how about a spell that actually does something different, not a weaker version of the same.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-30, 02:50 PM
Monks have stealth
not that one

ok, maybe if it doesn't go umd, tumble, etc it can be

4 sp/lvl but giacomo wants monks with umd (2 ranks) hide move silently tumble and maybe some otehr stuff...

stealth is hide+move silently, so he needs half his sp rihgt there, with only 2 for other stuff

could be a problem


dungeons are cramped
and maybe they're crowded so the monk cant' sjut run up and grab the wizrd, hmmm?



the range on a charge is long, etc. For the rare fights that start 70 feet or so away, that might make sense.
you mean, outdoor fights?

ericgrau
2008-07-30, 02:52 PM
and maybe they're crowded so the monk cant' just run up and grab the wizrd, hmmm?

Doesn't interfere at all, except in an extremely convoluted scenario.



you mean, outdoor fights?

In open plains, with no trees, where both people see eachother clearly in the distance... where attacks just wait out in the open until they bump into someone... honestly what kind of campaigins do you play?

EDIT:
Or what if the wizard fights a sniper (monk with longbow proficiency feat), in the bushes, 300 feet away so the wizard gets a -30 to his spot check? Oh then the wizard can't do anything and he automatically loses?!? Honestly, cut the what ifs. If the wizard goes first, his chance of winning is a little over half. If the monk goes first, he has a much higher chance of winning. There, done. Now, unless you want to give me an exhaustive list of all 3000+ scenarios that might come up, I don't care about just one what-if.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-30, 02:57 PM
what about what i said about monk stealth, hmm?


Doesn't interfere at all, except in an extremely convoluted scenario.
cop out



In open plains, with no trees, where both people see eachother clearly in the distance... where attacks just wait out in the open until they bump into someone... honestly what kind of campaigins do you play?

good ones

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-30, 02:58 PM
Or what if the wizard fights a sniper (monk with longbow proficiency feat), in the bushes, 300 feet away so the wizard gets a -30 to his spot check? Oh then the wizard can't do anything and he automatically loses?!? Honestly, cut the what ifs. If the wizard goes first, his chance of winning is a little over half. If the monk goes first, he has a much higher chance of winning. There, done. Now, unless you want to give me an exhaustive list of all 3000+ scenarios that might come up, I don't care about just one what-if.
and wht if the monk fights pun pun?

ericgrau
2008-07-30, 02:59 PM
Failure to address all of 3000+ scenarios does not provide evidence for the opposite argument. You have too much time on your hands, I do not. Back to work, it's 1pm.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-30, 03:00 PM
Failure to address all of 3000+ scenarios does not provide evidence for the opposite argument. You have too much time on your hands, I do not. Back to work, it's 1pm.

and how does the monk hit anything with +2 dex at most and range penalty, eh?

Hmmm? hmmm?

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-30, 04:00 PM
You can make a monk without MAD. Using your stupid array (it works out to 17 PB)

STR: 8
DEX: 12
Con: 6
INT: 17
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

Race: Grey Elf
Feats: Kung Fu Genius, Keen Intellect, Faerie Mysteries Initiate
Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable

That bases all your monk abilities off of Int (KFG), gives you Int to HP (FMI), and Int to Will saves (KI).

So at level 1:
HP: 11
Fort: +0
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Skill Points: 28
AC: 14

If you use a reasonable PB (25) it becomes:
STR: 9
DEX: 16
Con: 8
INT: 20
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

So at level 1:
HP: 13
Fort: +0
Ref: +5
Will: +7
Skill Points: 36
AC: 18

The only problem you have is your AB and damage, but at level 3 you should take Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike) and get Dex to Attack, which solves a large part of that problem.

Yes its feat intensive but you can make a Monk that only needs Int and Dex at all. At level 20 feats look like this

Level 1: Kung Fu Genius, Keen Intellect, Faerie Mysteries Initiate
Level 3: Weapon Finesse (unarmed strike)
Level 6: Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique)
Level 9: Martial Stance (Child of Shadow)
Level 12: Shadow Blade
Level 15: Superior Unarmed Strike
Level 18: Improved Natural Attack

That gets you Dex to damage and your unarmed strike damage progression is done as if you were large size. A better idea is to take 1 level of Swordsage and be able to loose Martial Study and Martial Stance, which lets you get the feats out of the way at level 9.

And if you are smart you Chaos Shuffle your racial feats into 4 other feats (costs 19,600 GP).

I can make a viable Monk 19/Swordsage 1 that only uses 2 abilities at all (Int and Dex). Viable is defined as being more useful than a fighter by the way.

Although with 9 Skill Points per level he can be an all right skill money.


Thats how you make a non mad monk.

And no it is not core Giacomo.

NOTE: I would just play an unarmed swordsage but to each there own.

If you want to compare monks I will make a level 20 monk 19/ swordsage 1 and compare it to any monk 20 (or anything that is at least 75% monk) you care to make, so long as its not core only.

Frosty
2008-07-30, 04:15 PM
Feats: Kung Fu Genius, Keen Intellect, Faerie Mysteries Initiate

Where are these feats from anyways? My wizard would love Keen Intellect.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-30, 04:24 PM
Where are these feats from anyways? My wizard would love Keen Intellect.

Kung Fu Genius and Faerie Mysteries Initiate are from Dragon #319. Keen Intellect is from Oriental Adventure's. You might also want to look at Insightful Reflex's, which does Int to Reflex saves.

ericgrau
2008-07-30, 07:54 PM
and how does the monk hit anything with +2 dex at most and range penalty, eh?

Hmmm? hmmm?

10 AC. 14 tops, but that's a lousy use of his limited casting and he probably doesn't expect to need it. Plus 3 range increments is nothing. Heck, with 4 range increments he could make sure he has zero chance of getting spotted (-40 to spot, -20 to hide while taking shots, net -20 difference). Geeze man, figure something out yourself instead of trying to nit pick without giving reasons. That isn't making a case at all, that's just demanding one as if the failure of your opponent to provide it at your whim means you are right. It doesn't. Not gonna bother responding to further comments without a line of reasoning behind them. What nonsense.

And it's a tangent on top of a tangent...

But let's get back on topic. So there are claims that you can make a monk as strong as a fighter at least? Is this only with a swordsage? Are there other prestiges? Does it still work if you only use core?

Sir Giacomo
2008-07-31, 03:50 PM
Well,

I guess the thread should be re-directed to the OP's question (in case he's still interested).

And thanks, Emperor Tippy, that also outside core a monk is not MAD. Will link that when I continue the monk discussion thread.

- Giacomo

ericgrau
2008-07-31, 06:36 PM
Right, it was a tangent on top of a tangent on top of a tangent on top of a delicious baked fruit filling. I should have said let's get back to the tangent, which is "Exactly how weak is the monk?" When the main topic is "What house rules should I use to boost the monk?"