Why is Polymorph Busted?

[Deth Muncher]

I'm sorry. I was reading it, and to be perfectly honest, it doesn't seem like something too terribly busted.

Now, I'm sure if you're a Kobold Cleric with a snake familiar...

But seriously folks, WHY is it heralded as such a broken spell?

[Vexxation]

Well, you could manage to polymorph the main plot villain into a butterfly, then smash it.

Or polymorph the caster into another monster, perhaps a Solar or something or tremendous power that oughtn't be in the PCs power to turn into.

[ColonelFuster]

I also do not understand this... I just restrict what people run into, so that their characters can't know about it. done.

[Spiryt]

You can polymorph into a Dragon as long as HD and your levels are equal.

Just think about it. 13th level mage can get all abilities of Juvenile Black dragon, starting with 12 sided hi dice, all saves good... An still can cast spells.

And it's probably weak example in fact, as I'm not good at it.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm sorry. I was reading it, and to be perfectly honest, it doesn't seem like something too terribly busted.

Now, I'm sure if you're a Kobold Cleric with a snake familiar...

But seriously folks, WHY is it heralded as such a broken spell?

Polymorph or its big brother ShapeChange?

Polymorph:
Melee warrior (Treant or Hydra, yes every head as an attack because they are natural weapon routine)
Save or lose (Cloaker: can you say Hold Person at will? Yes, it is extraordinary attack so you get it)
Flying (Really variety here)

The list goes on.

Shapechange:
Balor: free Vorpal weapons to sell every X hours. (yes you can make them as they are supernatural ability)
Solar (baby, they rock)
Gargantuan Red Dragon (now that rocks)
Zolar or Efferti: Free Wishes for no exp cost... how was that balanced?

[Spiryt]

Will o' wips.

Great AC, perfect fly, improved initiative....

Probably more, but I'm not sure how decription should be understood.

Does he gain skills? (Great Will o' wisp spot, for example)

[Starbuck_II]

Will o' wips.

Great AC, perfect fly, improved initiative....

Probably more, but I'm not sure how decription should be understood.

Does he gain skills? (Great Will o' wisp spot, for example)

You only gain Racial skill bonuses. Like a fishes swim speed adds bonus to swim.

[Chronicled]

Pixies. Flight, sleep arrows (which affect any HD) at will, greater invisibility as a free action at will, memory arrows--that make the target forget everything, at will.

The revised polymorph spells are fine though (Trollshape, Displacer Form, etc). The originals are just too flexible and powerful. Heck, Alter Self, non-abused, gives you flight sooner and longer than Fly.

[Worira]

Will o' wips.

Great AC, perfect fly, improved initiative....

Probably more, but I'm not sure how decription should be understood.

Does he gain skills? (Great Will o' wisp spot, for example)

Don't forget invisibility and immunity to magic.

EDIT: and you don't get improved initiative, you get weapon finesse. Also, a touch attack.

But yeah, picture a party with a treant barbarian, a will-o'-wisp rogue, a choker wizard, and a cleric... something.

[Starbuck_II]

Don't forget invisibility and immunity to magic.

Immunity I'm sure was supernatural trait. Shapechange gives those.
Polymorph is limited to Extraodinary (attack ones).

[Spiryt]

Immunity I'm sure was supernatural trait. Shapechange gives those.
Polymorph is limited to Extraodinary (attack ones).

Exactly. Same with Pixies Greater Invisibility at will. Fortunately, Polymorph isn't that broken.

[Oslecamo]

Pixies. Flight, sleep arrows (which affect any HD) at will, greater invisibility as a free action at will, memory arrows--that make the target forget everything, at will.


Yeah, those CR 17 monsters are really gonna be scared of DC 12+charisma fortitude or will saves, not to mention that everybody and their mother has see invisibility or true seeing at such high levels.

Not to mention the pixie doesn't provide you with a bow, so good luck hiting the monster in the first place using an immprovised weapon.

Anyway, the biggest flaw of polymorph would be it's horrible wording, wich many players bend to their liking. Should you interpret it in a diferent way, it's not that broken.

My favorite interpretation is that familiar form=every being in the multiverse and beyond.

Of course your character got acess to the finest libraries of all times, and thus knows every little detail of every monster in existence.

[Leewei]

The above examples are all pretty good illustrations of how polymorph is broken. Monsters are built to provide challenge in encounters -- PCs with access to monstrous abilities can often trivialize encounters.

[Worira]

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

A will-o’-wisp is immune to most spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except magic missile and maze.

Emphasis mine.

[Starbuck_II]

Emphasis mine.

That isn't an attack: that seems more a quality.
Attacks you have to activate. Qualities are innate.

[Oslecamo]

Emphasis mine.

Congratulations, all your buffs will fall, none of your equipment works, and the polymorph effect will probably end since you're immune to it, so you go back to your former self and wasted a spell.

[Worira]

Yeah, those CR 17 monsters are really gonna be scared of DC 12+charisma fortitude or will saves, not to mention that everybody and their mother has see invisibility or true seeing at such high levels.

No, but CR 7 monsters are, and that's the level you get polymorph.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Um, are you guys all talking about polymorph? Because I don't think that gives you any of the magic abilities. And though it technically changes your creature type, it doesn't do anything to your HD or base attack either.

Now, even as intended, you could use it to turn into a giant or a Dire Bat something, taking advantage of high strength, constitution, natural armor and size. In a sense, it's a more versatile version of Tenser's Transformation. Polymorph pretty much sets the high standard for its spell level.

The will-o'-wisp thing is also clever.

[Spiryt]

Yeah, those CR 17 monsters are really gonna be scared of DC 12+charisma fortitude or will saves, not to mention that everybody and their mother has see invisibility or true seeing at such high levels.


Against 17 CR monster I give you spelcasting young adult White Dragon.

[Deth Muncher]

Congratulations, all your buffs will fall, none of your equipment works, and the polymorph effect will probably end since you're immune to it, so you go back to your former self and wasted a spell.

Yeah, I wondered what would happen if you go and 'morph into something which is immune to magic. Or even something immune to Polymorph in the first place!

And wait, if you turn into something with Regeneration, do you get regeneration? Or any other ability like that? Or is that on that list of things you dont get?

[Spiryt]

Yeah, I wondered what would happen if you go and 'morph into something which is immune to magic. Or even something immune to Polymorph in the first place!

And wait, if you turn into something with Regeneration, do you get regeneration? Or any other ability like that? Or is that on that list of things you dont get?

That reminds me of another idioticaly broken quality of polymorph.


Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further).

So if you are close to death, just polymorph into some other interesting form.

And. Regain. All. Hit. Points.

[Leewei]

Not to mention the pixie doesn't provide you with a bow, so good luck hiting the monster in the first place using an immprovised weapon.
A PC planning to use this tactic would reasonably have the bow available.


Anyway, the biggest flaw of polymorph would be it's horrible wording, wich many players bend to their liking. Should you interpret it in a diferent way, it's not that broken.
Hello, Oberoni fallacy.


Of course your character got acess to the finest libraries of all times, and thus knows every little detail of every monster in existence.
Alternately, high Knowledge(arcane|planar|dungeoneering|nature|whate ver) skill to be aware of such things by RAW.

[Oslecamo]

No, but CR 7 monsters are, and that's the level you get polymorph.

Polymoprh doesn't give out supernatural abilities!




Against 17 CR monster I give you spelcasting young adult White Dragon


But since you're casting as a spellcaster, you need a full night's rest to recover your spells. Good luck making shapechange last that much.

[Worira]

If by "all", you mean "1 per character level", then yes.


And yeah, missed the separation of Ex attacks and Ex abilities.

EDIT: and pixie special arrows are Ex. Please don't accuse me of not reading the rules when you haven't read the monster entry in question.

[Jade_Tarem]

I do believe Mr. Burlew has gone over this, in the gaming section of the site (not the gaming section of the boards). He has a comprehensive list of everything that's wrong with polymorph.

[Spiryt]

Nice try. But since you're casting as a spellcaster, you need a full night's rest to recover your spells. Good luck making shapechance last that much.

:smallconfused:

Why should I loose them in the first place ?

[Oslecamo]

Hello, Oberoni fallacy.


You don't even know what the Oberoni fallacy is.

Oberoni Fallacy (noun): The fallacy that the existence of a rule stating that, ‘the rules can be changed,’ can be used to excuse design flaws in the actual rules. Etymology, D&D message boards, a fallacy first formalized by member Oberoni.

It can only be applied if I change the rules.

And I'm not chancing any rules. I'm just changing the interpretation.

Why should your interpretation be more valid than mine?

[Deth Muncher]

That reminds me of another idioticaly broken quality of polymorph.



So if you are close to death, just polymorph into some other interesting form.

And. Regain. All. Hit. Points.

Not to mention with that, if you get killed, don't you just...revert to your original form, just dandy? Or are you actually dead when you revert?

[Jade_Tarem]

Not to mention with that, if you get killed, don't you just...revert to your original form, just dandy? Or are you actually dead when you revert?

Oh, you're quite dead if you get killed in the middle of a polymorph, but really, if you're doing it right you shouldn't die in the first place.

[Kyeudo]

Nice try. But since you're casting as a spellcaster, you need a full night's rest to recover your spells. Good luck making shapechance last that much.

I believe he was talking about his Wizard spells, not the dragons spell slots, since he still has hands and can speak.

Now, to get the sorcerer casting, all it takes is a rod of persist spell and some planning.

[Gorbash]

I'm amazed how anyone can view polymorph as a NON broken spell. Just cast all the buffs you can think of on yourself, polymorph into something big (huge creatures are available at lvl 8 - behir, bullete on the top of my mind), and congratulations, you won D&D.

[Jade_Tarem]

I'm amazed how anyone can view polymorph as a NON broken spell. Just cast all the buffs you can think of on yourself, polymorph into something big (huge creatures are available at lvl 8 - behir, bullete on the top of my mind), and congratulations, you won D&D.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you just distilled polymorph abuse to its core essence.

[Leewei]

The worst abuses certainly come out of shapechange. Polymorph "merely" allows Plant forms, which are immune to mind-affecting effects, critical hits, and poison. Treants have Huge size, decent Strength, and can talk and wield weapons.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, I wondered what would happen if you go and 'morph into something which is immune to magic. Or even something immune to Polymorph in the first place!

And wait, if you turn into something with Regeneration, do you get regeneration? Or any other ability like that? Or is that on that list of things you dont get?

I think we need to make sure we aer on same page.
Shapechange gives qualities; Polymorph does not.

I'm surprised there was no Greater Polymorph: Just gave both Extraordinary Qualities and attacks.

[Current Progression:
Polymorph: Extraordinary attacks.
Polymorph any object: Polymorph but gives mental stats.
Shapechange: Extraordinary attacks/qualities/Supernatural.

Shouldn't there be something between the three?

[Spiryt]

Shouldn't there be something between the three?

You never have enough cheese, sir?

[Leewei]

You don't even know what the Oberoni fallacy is.

Oberoni Fallacy (noun): The fallacy that the existence of a rule stating that, ‘the rules can be changed,’ can be used to excuse design flaws in the actual rules. Etymology, D&D message boards, a fallacy first formalized by member Oberoni.

It can only be applied if I change the rules.

And I'm not chancing any rules. I'm just changing the interpretation.

Why should your interpretation be more valid than mine?
I'm happy with my understanding of what I'd posted. Maybe you should state your interpretation of the spell. Your post reads suspiciously close to invoking rule 0.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Using polymorph I was able to make a high level transmographist who could turn into giant Bone Oozes which could fly at 120 ft per round. If you didn't know, bone oozes rip the bones out of engulfed enemies, an instant kill. So yes, I was a several ton white ooze flying around ripping the skeletons out of balors every round, keeping the party far away from the blast radius. And it practically worked every time, as the fort save to avoid insta kill is about 40, and my grapple might have been higher than that.

So, yes, polymorph is a little broken.

[Jade_Tarem]

Bone Oozes

LOL WHAT?!

[Oslecamo]

First, apologies to Worira. Still, casters are using lv4 spells at this moment, so pixie arrows aren't really that imba.

They demand you to hit the target, and their allow a save, and if you're not a sorceror your charisma won't be that high anyway.


:smallconfused:

Why should I loose them in the first place ?

Why would you gain them imediatily in the first place? Sorcerers recharge their spells every day, so there's no rules suporting that if you sudenly transform into a sorceror your spells automatically recharge at that moment.

[Arbitrarity]

Polymorph is broken because it is too versatile, too powerful, and grows rapidly with splatbooks. Shapechange is worse. They both allow player access to abilities intended for monsters, and another problem is that by picking any monster in the game to change into, they easily exploit issues in the system. Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) 3HD, 60 ft fly speed, +15! natural armor (not factorial, just emphasis).
This sort of thing is potent. Stone giants, war trolls, that burrowing sand turtle thingy: All of these are very powerful, can be changed into, and result in incredible powers for the player.

And what effect to choose if the player's choice at casting (worse, for shapechange), and is quite often broken.
Also, you can turn into a will-o-the-wisp, as spell immunity functions like spell resistance, meaning it only applies to spells being cast upon you, not those currently running.

[NullAshton]

A huge problem I'm noting here is that people think it's dependent on CR. It isn't. It's dependent on the hitdice of the creature, which is usually higher than the CR.

Also, some of the abilities aren't extraordinary or supernatural... for example, spellcasting which several of you think that it gives you. That's a spell-like abilities or just plain learned spellcasting, which none of the polymorph spells give you.

[Spiryt]

Why would you gain them imediatily in the first place? Sorcerers recharge their spells every day, so there's no rules suporting that if you sudenly transform into a sorceror your spells automatically recharge at that moment.

Ok, it seems that it's total misunderstunding. You are talking about dragons sorceror's spells, and I meant that spellcasting (with normal wizards/sorc spells) dragon.

Seriously, with dragon spells as well, it wouldn't even be funny anymore.


A huge problem I'm noting here is that people think it's dependent on CR. It isn't. It's dependent on the hitdice of the creature, which is usually higher than the CR.



Where do you see such examples? :smallconfused:

Pixie have actually CR of 4/5, and one hit dice, for example.

[Gorbash]

You don't need the spellcasting of the creature you turn into, you kinda already have it. Yeah, the spell-like abilities would be great, but that's what shapechange is for.


Seriously, with dragon spells as well, it wouldn't even be funny anymore.

If as a wizard, a sorcerer has a better spellcasting than you, you're a pretty lame wizard.

[Spiryt]

If as a wizard, a sorcerer has a better spellcasting than you, you're a pretty lame wizard.
Dragons anyway have caster level much lower than their HD, they would be completely undefeatable otherwise.


Still, having additonal, even weak sorcerers spell would be even more broken, so I can't see where's the point :smallconfused:

[Arbitrarity]

Dragons can cast spells. This is proven by sorceror spells. Therefore, they can cast your spells, unlike, say, a choker, (arguably) or a ooze. Otherwise, you have to be humanoid.

[John Campbell]

You can polymorph into a Dragon as long as HD and your levels are equal.

Just think about it. 13th level mage can get all abilities of Juvenile Black dragon, starting with 12 sided hi dice, all saves good... An still can cast spells.

And it's probably weak example in fact, as I'm not good at it.

I think most of the problem with polymorph is, as illustrated here, people not understanding how it actually works.

Dragons are actually fairly poor poly targets. They tend to have a lot of hit dice for their power level (which means that, since your poly-targets are limited by HD, you can only poly into the weaker ones), and most of the stuff that makes them powerful, you don't get.

You don't get those d12 HD... you're stuck with your normal HP, derived from those wussy d4 mage HD and your natural Con score.

You don't get those all-good Dragon save progressions... you're stuck with your only-Will-is-good mage base saves, though Fort and Reflex are modified by your new Con and Dex scores (the latter of which is probably worse than your natural Dex).

You don't get the breath weapon or any of the dragon's other special abilities, including its spell resistance (not that a juvenile black has any, anyway).

You don't get its spellcasting, and you probably lose most of your own (it's DM's judgment, but I wouldn't allow a normally-humanoid mage to make somatic gestures with dragon talons).

All of your gear melds into your new form and becomes useless.

You do get the dragon's attack routine, but you don't get its full BAB progression... you're stuck with your mage's half BAB, so it's a lot less effective.

You do get good natural armor, but your touch AC is terrible, and you'll have probably lost (melded) any gear that gives you AC bonuses that'd help with that.

You do get a good flight movement rate, which is handy, though your maneuverability won't be the best.

Basically, what you're doing here is having a 13th level mage use up a 4th level spell in order to turn himself into a crippled version of a CR 9 monster (he should be able to solo a full-strength one without breaking a sweat), losing most of his own abilities in the process. This is not what I'd call good strategy.

Will-o'wisps similarly... most of that stuff you don't actually get. Including, by my reading, the flight... it's not "flight with wings". Polymorph isn't shapechange. You don't get Su or Sp abilities, or Ex Special Qualities.

There are better forms to polymorph into, but, really, monsters tend to be weaker than similar-HD PCs, so unless there's a specific ability you want to pick up - and it's one of the ones in the very small subset that polymorph actually allows you to pick up - I find it's generally not worth it.

I played a fighter-wizard from 2nd level to 17th in a recent campaign, and never polymorphed myself, because there was nothing I could polymorph into that was tougher than my fully-equipped and fully-spellcasting-capable natural form. I polymorphed my familiar all the time - into forms with effective attacks (he got my pretty-decent BAB, but only had a 1d3-4 bite to use it with in his natural form), into forms that could fly while carrying me, into humanoid forms that could make good use of his sharing all of my skills - but never myself.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Polymorph is broken because it abuses a design flaw. Monsters are designed for the purpose of fighting players, and they may be given abilities that are balanced for them as encounters, but breaking in the hands of players.
Especially considering that Polymorph bases the forms you can take off of hit die, it can transform into things far beyond the expected power level. (hydras, rukanyrs, etc.)
The standard balance of "You don't know that creature" is a fallacy because, 1) It's a house rule and 2) The way knowledge skills work, you should be able to identify the one or two forms you need with a simple check.


Furthermore, it allows wizards to tank better than fighters (Especially since familiars can share polymorph with their wizard master)


Finally, because it has no inherent cap, it's a spell that gets stronger each time a sourcebook comes out, effectively adding new forms.


(Not to mention that it's ludicrously more beneficial than most 4th level spells, which is the most common way to change brokenness)

[Kyeudo]

~Technicaly correct rant~

No one was talking about polymorphing into a dragon. They were talking about shapechanging into a dragon, which does get you all that fun stuff.

And as a fighter/wizard, did you ever try out the Hydra form? Multiple attacks as a standard action.

[Myatar_Panwar]

LOL WHAT?!

It was in one of the extra monster manuals, cant remember which though. I dont even know the fluff on it, all I know is that its some sort of huge white Ooze which sucks out skeletons, and as a wizard with polymorph, what else do u need to know? :smalltongue:

[Arbitrarity]

Actually, you had shapechange. MM2, drains 1d6 from every physical ability score on a hit, 2 attacks/round, deals 5 ongoing damage (as wounding) cumulative/hit, one target it engulfs/round (DC 35 reflex to resist) can make a DC 35 fort save or die, having its bones "[pulled] out through the flesh". Oh, and engulfed creatures take the effects of a slam. Blindsight 60, DR 30/+5, SR 32.

See, shapechange breaks the game. Too many HD to polymorph, though.

Also, very slow monster. CR 21.

[John Campbell]

No one was talking about polymorphing into a dragon. They were talking about shapechanging into a dragon, which does get you all that fun stuff.
No, the comment I was responding to very specifically said, "polymorph into a Dragon".


And as a fighter/wizard, did you ever try out the Hydra form? Multiple attacks as a standard action.
At the cost of my spellcasting and the use of all of my magic items. No thanks.

I did have hydra on my list of forms specced out and ready to polymorph my familiar into, but I never actually used it. My preferred forms for him were wyvern and war troll, both of which are fairly combat-capable (with decent Ex attacks that polymorph does grant) and also have other uses - flying mount for the wyvern, tool-using (including weapons and magic items) for the war troll.

[lord_khaine]

Polymorph is broken because it abuses a design flaw. Monsters are designed for the purpose of fighting players, and they may be given abilities that are balanced for them as encounters, but breaking in the hands of players.

i cant quite agree on this one, shapechange is pretty broken, but by the time you can get it, then it doesnt really matter anyway, since there is plenty of other core things that are at least as broken.
as for the abilities, since you only get extraordinary attacks, then its limited what kind of funny things you can gain though polymorp.


Especially considering that Polymorph bases the forms you can take off of hit die, it can transform into things far beyond the expected power level. (hydras, rukanyrs, etc.)

lets take the hydra as a example, if a lv 7 wizard transform into one, then he will end up with 7 attacks +6, also he will have a puny base ac 17, 21 with mage armor, and proberly make himself the focus of enough attention to make him regret doing so, as he still only has a puny 7d4+con.
instead he could have something really nast like fx evards tentacles.


The standard balance of "You don't know that creature" is a fallacy because, 1) It's a house rule and 2) The way knowledge skills work, you should be able to identify the one or two forms you need with a simple check
no, its not a fallacy and its not a house rule, its actualy a hole in the rules, because the spell requires you to be familiar with the shape you assume, but it doesnt define what it means by familiar.


Furthermore, it allows wizards to tank better than fighters (Especially since familiars can share polymorph with their wizard master)

its not polymorp that allows wizards to tank better, to start with if you want to tank something then you need a way to keep its attention, and most smart things will reconise that the casters are a much bigger treat than the fighter.

also, before you start to muck around with strange feats and monsters from other books, then polymorp by itself wont make the wizard into a better melee fighter.


Finally, because it has no inherent cap, it's a spell that gets stronger each time a sourcebook comes out, effectively adding new forms.

thats not quite right, its a spell that gets stronger each time a new unike monster gets includet into the campaign, but just because a new splatbook is made, doesnt mean it will be acceptet into the game.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I did have hydra on my list of forms specced out and ready to polymorph my familiar into, but I never actually used it. My preferred forms for him were wyvern and war troll, both of which are fairly combat-capable (with decent Ex attacks that polymorph does grant) and also have other uses - flying mount for the wyvern, tool-using (including weapons and magic items) for the war troll.

And it's honestly kind of exploitive. Your familiar isn't meant to be a massive damage dealing tank at the cost of one 4th level spell.

[Chronos]

lets take the hydra as a example, if a lv 7 wizard transform into one, then he will end up with 7 attacks +6, also he will have a puny base ac 17, 21 with mage armor, and proberly make himself the focus of enough attention to make him regret doing so, as he still only has a puny 7d4+con.So you don't polymorph yourself into a hydra. You polymorph the party rogue into a hydra. Now all 7 of those attacks (which can be made as a single standard action) each include a bunch of d6 of sneak attack damage.

Or you can turn yourself into something with really good defenses, and keep on using your spells for offense. Or you turn into a big flying thing, to carry your party places. Or you can turn your familiar into a big flying thing, ride it, and rain death from above. Or you can turn into something small and innocuous to sneak into places a human wouldn't be allowed. Or you can scare off an army that thinks you're a real dragon, with all of their niftiness.

And you can do all of this with the same spell, and without even having to choose what you want to do with it until the time you cast it.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Actually, you had shapechange. MM2, drains 1d6 from every physical ability score on a hit, 2 attacks/round, deals 5 ongoing damage (as wounding) cumulative/hit, one target it engulfs/round (DC 35 reflex to resist) can make a DC 35 fort save or die, having its bones "[pulled] out through the flesh". Oh, and engulfed creatures take the effects of a slam. Blindsight 60, DR 30/+5, SR 32.

See, shapechange breaks the game. Too many HD to polymorph, though.

Also, very slow monster. CR 21.

Actually, it only has 20 HD. And it was no shapechange. Master Transmografist gives many things that you wouldent normally get from polymorph, such as special qualities. And slow monster? Not when you use the MT ability and put some dragon wings on it. :smalltongue:

Edit: Actually, you are right, just remembered that polymorph caps at 15, I thought you meant something else. I just convinced my poor dm to let me take a feat to remove the cap. :smalltongue:

[Gorbash]

^A feat that allowed you to be a huge winged ooze... No comment...

[John Campbell]

And it's honestly kind of exploitive. Your familiar isn't meant to be a massive damage dealing tank at the cost of one 4th level spell.

It's risky, though. Familiars are fragile - they have only half the HP of their usually already fragile master - and they don't get the HP of their new form when you polymorph them. Their usual primary defense is that they're non-threatening enough that no one bothers targeting them specifically, and they can evade most of the area-effect splash damage. Turning them into something that can dish out significant damage makes them suddenly a target, and they're not really robust enough to handle that.

I was able to get away with it because I had way more HP than your typical mage - dwarf with a natural 20 Con, a couple of fighter levels, and most of the rest in d6 and d10 prestige classes, plus I got lucky on my hit-die rolls - so my familiar was correspondingly tougher than usual - his HP were actually in the same ballpark as our sorceress's. Even still, I got him killed doing this once (he probably saved us from a TPK - I would've had him withdraw the round before if the situation hadn't been quite so dire - and the DM let us raise him, but I still ate the XP penalty), and his usual damage output wasn't even what I could've accomplished by just tossing out a fireball.

[tbarrie]

That reminds me of another idioticaly broken quality of polymorph.


Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further).

So if you are close to death, just polymorph into some other interesting form.

And. Regain. All. Hit. Points.

Huh? As you you just quoted, you only get a single night's rest worth of hit points. Even for a wizard, that's not likely to be even half.

[Thoughtbot360]

I also do not understand this... I just restrict what people run into, so that their characters can't know about it. done.

So....what monsters do your players run into? I mean, anything with a level adjustment is bad because the players can circumvent that by getting a polymorph permancied.

[Myatar_Panwar]

^A feat that allowed you to be a huge winged ooze... No comment...

No, a feat that let me turn into a winged bone ooze. Other types of winged ooze were already possible. :smalltongue:

[Gorbash]

Permanating polymorph will cost you enough XP to earn that LA, though.


I also do not understand this... I just restrict what people run into, so that their characters can't know about it. done.

Point is, eventually, they're run into something dangerous, so you haven't really fixed the problem with polymorph, you've just lessened it for a bit.

[Frosty]

I was never clear on this. When you Shapechange into something like a Balor for example, do I gain its Spell-like abilities?

[Jade_Tarem]

No, a feat that let me turn into a winged bone ooze. Other types of winged ooze were already possible. :smalltongue:

I'm sorry, I still can't get over the term bone ooze. It just seems like too much of an oxymoron to ignore. I haven't heard of a better ooze since the (living spell) teleportation field/reverse gravity ooze, which causes everyone to teleport a short distance and fall off the planet each time it hits something.

[Gorbash]

I was never clear on this. When you Shapechange into something like a Balor for example, do I gain its Spell-like abilities?

Yes, the description: You gain all supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) can be somewhat confusing...

[Douglas]

No, not even Shapechange gives Spell-like abilities. Supernatural is its own, entirely separate, category of abilities.

[John Campbell]

I was never clear on this. When you Shapechange into something like a Balor for example, do I gain its Spell-like abilities?
No.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.
So you gain the (Ex) and (Su) abilities, but it doesn't specify anything about the (Sp)s. Where not specified, it acts like polymorph, which specifically doesn't grant spell-likes.

(This is part of the problem with these spells, actually... shapechange inherits behaviour from polymorph, which inherits from alter self, so you have to read three different spell descriptions to figure out what shapechange actually does, or two for polymorph, and it's not always as clear as it might be about which behaviours are inherited and which are overridden.)

[Gorbash]

Why not? Spell-like abilities are listed under Special Attacks, and shapechange says you get special attacks, whether extraordinary or supernatural...

[John Campbell]

Why not? Spell-like abilities are listed under Special Attacks, and shapechange says you get special attacks, whether extraordinary or supernatural...
Spell-like (Sp) abilities are neither extraordinary (Ex) abilities nor supernatural (Su) abilities.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Permanating polymorph will cost you enough XP to earn that LA, though.


Actually it won't, you might lose some XP temporarily but I don't think you can actually lose a level through XP costs and even if it is possible you'll just gain more XP then everyone else because you are a level lower until you catch up.

[Gorbash]

Well yeah, but it can be dispelled, so it's not really worth it, losing XP...

[ArmorArmadillo]

i cant quite agree on this one, shapechange is pretty broken, but by the time you can get it, then it doesnt really matter anyway, since there is plenty of other core things that are at least as broken.
as for the abilities, since you only get extraordinary attacks, then its limited what kind of funny things you can gain though polymorp.I don't understand this argument, you're saying that polymorph isn't broken because shapechange is?


lets take the hydra as a example, if a lv 7 wizard transform into one, then he will end up with 7 attacks +6, also he will have a puny base ac 17, 21 with mage armor, and proberly make himself the focus of enough attention to make him regret doing so, as he still only has a puny 7d4+con.
instead he could have something really nast like fx evards tentacles.You're forgetting that your con immediately skyrockets to 20, netting you a healthy bonus to HP. And, as a wizard, you have access to many combat enhancing buffs.


no, its not a fallacy and its not a house rule, its actualy a hole in the rules, because the spell requires you to be familiar with the shape you assume, but it doesnt define what it means by familiar.
The spell does not require that anywhere in the rules listed in the SRD in polymorph or alter self. It's a implication some people take, but it is not by any means a written in requirement.

Furthermore, the rules are not unclear on how to identify a creatures.

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.
Which would mean that hydras could be known with a DC 15 check, Rukanyrs with a DC 17.
With your naturally high INT, investing in one knowledge skill will easily net you the knowledge you need to grab the few forms you'll need.


its not polymorp that allows wizards to tank better, to start with if you want to tank something then you need a way to keep its attention, and most smart things will reconise that the casters are a much bigger treat than the fighter.So, you're saying that you won't keep thing's attention because they'll attack casters instead? You're a caster.


also, before you start to muck around with strange feats and monsters from other books, then polymorp by itself wont make the wizard into a better melee fighter. What other books? MM gives you sphinx and hydra, two of the best forms. And even if you only use it on the party rogue and fighter, it's still overpowered.


thats not quite right, its a spell that gets stronger each time a new unike monster gets includet into the campaign, but just because a new splatbook is made, doesnt mean it will be acceptet into the game.Again, refer to the knowledge rules. Your DM can disallow forms however he likes, but that doesn't fix the spell itself.

Moreover, it sucks as a DM to have your choice in monsters limited because anything your wizard sees is fair game to wreak havoc with.

[Frosty]

You're wrong. Here's what Polymorph does as per erratas (it is now considered an Alternate Form ability)

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).

The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.

Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.

The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.

The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.

Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

[Gorbash]

Moreover, it sucks as a DM to have your choice in monsters limited because anything your wizard sees is fair game to wreak havoc with.

Wizards can wreak havoc without polymorph, so the best thing is just ban it and that's it.

[Frosty]

I've seen some DMs just ban Wizards period.

[Leewei]

You're wrong. Here's what Polymorph does as per erratas (it is now considered an Alternate Form ability)

...
Which erratas are these? The one I just looked through changed the wildshape Druid class ability more or less as you described, and also modified text for baleful polymorph and polymorph any object, but actually left the polymorph spell intact.

Any chance of a hyperlink to stuff more current than this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/PHBErrata02062006.zip)?

[Dausuul]

Well, let's see. Say you're playing a 7th-level wizard. Suitable stats for a 7th-level wizard, using 28-point buy:

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 19
Wis 10
Cha 8

Assume average hit points for your level, which gives you 33. (I am disregarding item bonuses since those will go away when you polymorph.) Now let's have a look at buffs.

You should pretty much always have mage armor up. If you know you're going into a fight and have time to prep, you'll also have shield, bear's endurance (increasing your hit points to 47), and bull's strength. Two first-level and two second-level spells seems pretty reasonable.

So, here are your stats as a hydra:

Size/Type: Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 7d4+28 (47)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 25 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +8 natural, +4 armor, +4 shield),
touch 9, flat-footed 24
BAB/Grapple: +3/+17
Attack: 7 bites +9 melee (1d10+6)
Full Attack: 7 bites +9 melee (1d10+6)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Atks: --
Special Quals: --
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +5
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 8

So, while your hit points are a bit lower than the party fighter's will likely be, you make up for it with truly terrifying damage output and a very solid AC. Especially since, unlike the fighter, you can move and full attack every round. And notice that I'm not going all-out to twink this build for polymorphing. You could drop cat's grace to boost your AC another two points, pick up the Improved Grapple feat, multiclass into Eldritch Knight in order to boost your BAB... and that's all without going outside of Core.

[nagora]

I'm sorry. I was reading it, and to be perfectly honest, it doesn't seem like something too terribly busted.

Now, I'm sure if you're a Kobold Cleric with a snake familiar...

But seriously folks, WHY is it heralded as such a broken spell?

Wizards blew the spell when they converted it from 1/2e as part of their "let's drop all the restrictions on wizards, then they'll be cool" drive.

Here's the 1e version (actually of Polymorph Self):

When this spell is cast, the magic-user is able to
assume the form of any creature - from as small as a wren to as large as a
hippopotomus - and its form of locomotion as well. The spell does not
give the other abilities (attack, magic, etc.), nor does it run the risk of
changing personality and mentality. No "system shock" check is required.
Thus, a magic-user changed to an owl could fly, but his or her vision would
be human; a change to a black pudding would enable movement under
doors or along halls and ceilings, but not the pudding's offensive or
defensive capabilities. Naturally, the strength of the new form must be
sufficient to allow normal movement. The spell caster can change his or
her form as often as desired, the change requiring only 5 segments.
Damage to the polymorphed form is computed as if it were inflicted upon
the magic-user, but when the magic-user returns to his or her own form,
from 1 to 12 (d12) points of damage are restored.
Basically, you're a pantomime version of whatever you change to. Now here's the d20 SRD version:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Now, you can use special attacks like a dragon's breath weapon, or a snake's venom, or a hydra's multiple-attacks, or a ghoul's paralysis, or any number of very powerful effects, including giant strength.

In other words, the spell was made much much more powerful without any increase in its level!

Polymorph Other, which the 3e Polymorph spell subsumes also has a saving throw and lots of reasons why the party's fighter would refuse to let you cast it on him/her.

A similar mistake was made with Gate, making it into a disaster for a campaign. On top of that sort of sloppy design, 3e made it easier to get to higher levels and obtain all the unbalanced spells that the idiots put/left in.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Actually, many of the special effects such as dragon breath are unavailable to polymorphers, as its a supernatural ability. Polymorph only grants extrodinary abilities.

[Starbuck_II]

You're wrong. Here's what Polymorph does as per erratas (it is now considered an Alternate Form ability)

Nope. Wildshape and Polymorph are not the same. They are not even spelled the same.
Stop doing the slippery slope fallacy in the application. Jusy because they errated Wildshape does not mean they will errata Polymorph.

They won't and didn't.

Polymorph does not consume gear: Magic gear resizes if useable in the new form.
Yes, when you become Treant you can keep your Belt of Str (Treants have mid-sections). You can keep Amulet of Con too because Tree People have heads for amulets.

[John Campbell]

Now, you can use special attacks like a dragon's breath weapon,
No, you can't. It's a supernatural ability; polymorph doesn't grant it.


or a snake's venom,
Yes, but the save DC is a joke even at the levels at which you first get access to polymorph. Wyvern poison is significantly nastier, and it was rare that anyone ever failed their save against my familiar's sting...


or a hydra's multiple-attacks,
It's not a bad form, but it denies you your spellcasting. I'd rather cast it on the fighter or the rogue and let them hobliterate whatever they can get into melee while I keep casting spells. And, from a GM's perspective, I really don't have a problem with the wizard helping the non-casters be effective in combat. It's a whole lot more party-friendly and fun for everyone than a lot of the other stuff a full caster can do with their time.


or a ghoul's paralysis,
Again, the save DC is a joke... and you can't polymorph into an undead, anyway.


or any number of very powerful effects, including giant strength.
Giants are another of those creature types, like dragons, where one of the things that makes them tough is that they have lots of hit dice. Because of that, because polymorph is restricted by HD, they're not really good poly targets; by the time your caster level and character level are high enough that you can become one, you've got better things you can do with your casting time. Especially since you don't actually gain the benefit of those hit dice.

Though, unlike dragons, they don't get the double whammy of having both lots of HD for their power level and having that power level based largely on lots of special abilities that you don't get. And most DMs'll probably let you cast spells as a giant.


That said, I actually agree with your basic premise that most of the reason wizards are so broken in 3.x is that WotC ramped up their power while removing most of the mechanics that kept them in check. I just don't think that polymorph is quite as broken, relative to the rest of 3.x, as conventional wisdom holds it to be.

[nagora]

No, you can't. It's a supernatural ability; polymorph doesn't grant it.
It sure looks like "an extraordinary attack" to me; can you cite the contrary?

[John Campbell]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A black dragon has one type of breath weapon, a line of acid.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A blue dragon has one type of breath weapon, a line of lightning.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A green dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of corrosive (acid) gas.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A red dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of fire.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A white dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of cold.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A brass dragon has two types of breath weapon, a line of fire and a cone of sleep. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a Will save or fall asleep, regardless of HD, for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
Bronze dragons have two types of breath weapon, a line of lightning and a cone of repulsion gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a Will save or be compelled to do nothing but move away from the dragon for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon. This is a mind-affecting compulsion enchantment effect.

[..]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A copper dragon has two types of breath weapon, a line of acid and a cone of slow gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a Fortitude save or be slowed for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A gold dragon has two types of breath weapon, a cone of fire and a cone of weakening gas. Creatures within a cone of weakening gas must succeed on a Fortitude save or take 1 point of Strength damage per age category of the dragon.

[...]

Breath Weapon (Su):
A silver dragon has two types of breath weapon, a cone of cold and a cone of paralyzing gas. Creatures within a cone of paralyzing gas must succeed on a Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon.

That (Su) after every single one of those means that it's a supernatural ability. If it were an extraordinary ability, there'd be an (Ex) instead.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Next to all monster abilities there is either a (Su) or a (Ex). Su stands for supernatural, while Ex stands for Extraordinary. Polymorph states that you get a creatures extraordinary abilities, not supernatural.

Edit: Ninja'd

[nagora]

That (Su) after every single one of those means that it's a supernatural ability. If it were an extraordinary ability, there'd be an (Ex) instead.

Bugger. Well, it's been a while since I played 3e and I'd forgotten the abbreviations. I stand corrected.

Still, the spell was boosted and left at the same level it had been. It was also greatly enhanced for use on allies by the removal of the system shock and on enemies by the removal of the saving throw (edit: yes, this is BS too: I forgot the "willing" clause :smalleek: I've got to stop sniffing glue:smallfrown:) Bad calls all 'round.

[John Campbell]

Still, the spell was boosted and left at the same level it had been. It was also greatly enhanced for use on allies by the removal of the system shock and on enemies by the removal of the saving throw. Bad calls all 'round.
You can't use polymorph on enemies at all; it requires a willing target. Baleful polymorph, which replaced the offensive uses of polymorph other, does get a save... two, in fact, though failing the first and passing the second still pretty much takes you out until someone does a break enchantment or the like on you. Baleful polymorph is also higher level (5th) than polymorph other was. (Though, of course, the advancement is so much faster in 3E that spell levels have undergone some significant inflation.)

[nagora]

You can't use polymorph on enemies at all; it requires a willing target.
Yes, I remembered that about three seconds after posting. What can I say? It was the early hours of the morning here and it's ages since I played the new editions :smallredface:

[Aquillion]

Yes, the description: You gain all supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) can be somewhat confusing...The real question is: If I shapechange into a Balor, do I gain a Vorpal Sword?

[John Campbell]

By the letter of the rules, yes. I'd drop a cow on a player who insisted on it, though.

[Frosty]

You need CL 20 before you can Shapechange into a Balor, and you still have your crappy +9 or +10 BAB. Having a Vorpal Sword to swing around is not broken at all. Now, tying to *sell* the sword I wouldn't allow.

[Deth Muncher]

You need CL 20 before you can Shapechange into a Balor, and you still have your crappy +9 or +10 BAB. Having a Vorpal Sword to swing around is not broken at all. Now, tying to *sell* the sword I wouldn't allow.

Yeah. I mean, at 20th level, can't you be doing better things than swinging around a sword that goes "snicker-snack" every time it hits something?

Related note: Can you Polymorph into the Tarrasque?

[KillianHawkeye]

So you don't polymorph yourself into a hydra. You polymorph the party rogue into a hydra. Now all 7 of those attacks (which can be made as a single standard action) each include a bunch of d6 of sneak attack damage.

I know this works thanks to flanking, but I just can't reconcile the image of a Huge 7-headed Hydra SNEAKING UP on anything! :smallamused:


Related note: Can you Polymorph into the Tarrasque?

The Tarrasque is a 48 HD creature, so no. You cannot even shapechange into it, although you could probably write an Epic spell that would do the job.

[Rashmi]

You need CL 20 before you can Shapechange into a Balor, and you still have your crappy +9 or +10 BAB. Having a Vorpal Sword to swing around is not broken at all. Now, tying to *sell* the sword I wouldn't allow.

The Vorpal Sword Shapechange trick is for Clerics with the right domain. They can even use that trick with the auto-20 spell after getting their free vorpal sword, and they can cast it at level 17 as soon as they get the spell with nothing but a Bead of Karma and turn into a Balor. Also, have the Wizard cast Dolorous Blow or whatever it is that auto-confirms all crits.

Suddenly you don't even need Divine Power because you can kill 1 (mostly) anything with a single 5th level spell. And so you can spend all your other slots for defense/mobility/getting that attack/offensive spells.

[CthulhuM]

I maintain that the most broken thing you can do with shapechange is turn into a beholder, particularly if you're a sorcerer. Five or more save-or-Xs at a DC of 25 or higher (depending on your charisma and exactly how high level you are) as a free action every round? Pretty hard to top that.

And with polymorph, it should be noted that the abuses become even more apparent if the target of the spell happens to be a warforged or an outsider like a tiefling or aasimar, thanks to the "The new form may be of the same type as the subject..." line. Full construct immunities are always fun to have, and outsiders generally have the highest power-to-HD ratio of any creature in the game, as long as you can find one that isn't too reliant on supernatural abilities. My personal favorite is the horn devil, with 31 strength, 25 dex and con, 19 natural armor, and some fairly nasty bite and tail attacks you can use in addition to your whole normal weapon routine (not to mention large size/reach and a fly speed).

For the record? The latter was something I made use of in a campaign. Don't look at me like that... the former was something the DM used against us.

[NullAshton]

Few more problems....

DCs are not based on your level. They are based on racial hitdice, of which you HAVE NONE.

And yes, you can polymorph into a hydra on par with the party fighter. By using a bunch of your spells... and you can't cast other spells at the same time... and only for 7-20 minutes, depending on your caster level.

You can also with the same effort cast all of these spells on the party fighter, who gets even MORE use out of the buffs than you would ever have, thanks to feats and BAB.

[Oslecamo]

The Vorpal Sword Shapechange trick is for Clerics with the right domain. They can even use that trick with the auto-20 spell after getting their free vorpal sword, and they can cast it at level 17 as soon as they get the spell with nothing but a Bead of Karma and turn into a Balor. Also, have the Wizard cast Dolorous Blow or whatever it is that auto-confirms all crits.

Suddenly you don't even need Divine Power because you can kill 1 (mostly) anything with a single 5th level spell. And so you can spend all your other slots for defense/mobility/getting that attack/offensive spells.

Except that half the enemies at such high levels are immune to crits and don't care about vorpal, one of the main reasons why melee builds rarely bother to get vorpal weapons.

[Jade_Tarem]

Except that half the enemies at such high levels are immune to crits and don't care about vorpal, one of the main reasons why melee builds rarely bother to get vorpal weapons.

Except for, y'know:

Greater Dragons
Most Aligned Outsiders
A good number of powerful Abberrations
High Level NPCs that happen to be core races
etc.

[Rashmi]

Except that half the enemies at such high levels are immune to crits and don't care about vorpal, one of the main reasons why melee builds rarely bother to get vorpal weapons.

But there are a great number of enemies you might want to use the trick on, and the point is that this way you can do the trick without wasting a bunch of money on a Vorpal Sword. No it's not going to be strategy numero uno all the time, but it's still a nice trick, and if you are playing at high level, Shapechange isn't a bad trick to have for a Cleric.

[Rashmi]

I maintain that the most broken thing you can do with shapechange is turn into a beholder, particularly if you're a sorcerer. Five or more save-or-Xs at a DC of 25 or higher (depending on your charisma and exactly how high level you are) as a free action every round? Pretty hard to top that.

No, the Most broken thing you can do with Shapechange is share it with your familiar, have him turn into a Beholder, and you turn into a Chronotyryn.

Then you have extra standard actions to cast Wall's of Force to lock in some poor Anti-Magic Coned sucker, or just spam him with your (uber metamagiced) orbs of Fire.

[Aquillion]

And yes, you can polymorph into a hydra on par with the party fighter. By using a bunch of your spells... and you can't cast other spells at the same time... and only for 7-20 minutes, depending on your caster level.

You can also with the same effort cast all of these spells on the party fighter, who gets even MORE use out of the buffs than you would ever have, thanks to feats and BAB.It's worth pointing out that, yes, polymorph is almost always a spell you're going to want to cast on the rest of your party rather than yourself (although being able to use it for defense in a pinch is also nice.) The barbarian or rogue make good targets, since they have abilities that can stack nastily with their polymorphed form.

[Starbuck_II]

Few more problems....

DCs are not based on your level. They are based on racial hitdice, of which you HAVE NONE.


No, DCs are based on 10+ 1/2 HD + Con (or Cha depends on ability). Read the Monster Manual again.
All PCs have HD.

Frosty:


You need CL 20 before you can Shapechange into a Balor, and you still have your crappy +9 or +10 BAB. Having a Vorpal Sword to swing around is not broken at all. Now, tying to *sell* the sword I wouldn't allow.

Just because you can houserule doesn't change the broken-ation of the ability. I will admit you can only sell sop many Vorpal swords to same city before it gets staturated (so worth less) (DMG gives this suggestion for mundane longswords though).

[Oslecamo]

Except for, y'know:

Greater Dragons


Good luck geting into melee range of a CR17 greater dragon. If it didn't self buff with AMF to rape you in melee, it probably has a thousand other buffs wich will want you regret the day you got near him. The only relatively safe way to kill a smart dragon is at range.



Most Aligned Outsiders


Wich are probably surrounded by a bunch of summoned minions for cannonfodder, making a trick around killing just one oponent at a turn not so sexy.



A good number of powerful Abberrations


There are very few CR 17 or above aberrations from what I remember, at least compared with outsiders and other stuff.



High Level NPCs that happen to be core races
etc.

Cough heavy fortification armor cough. High level NPCs carry high level gear. And heavy fortification is one of the best magic abilities you can slap on armor, so they'll probably have it. Specially because there aren't really many usefull choices for armor buffs.


It's a trick that can only kill one oponent by turn, presuming you get into melee range and the target isn't simply immune to criticals. That's a lot of if's.

There are much better strategies to kill the enemies at that levels.

Heck, I would say the super metamagic orb shooter would be more effecient than this.

[Jade_Tarem]

*Takes things too seriously*

There are much better strategies to kill the enemies at that levels.

Heck, I would say the super metamagic orb shooter would be more effecient than this.

Um, yes. Congrats! I didn't say that it was teh best stratemegy EVARZ. I just pointed out the staggering number of things that are not immune to critical hits even at very high levels. I know of great ways to kill all of the things that I posted, and none of them involve vorpal. :smallannoyed:

And the best way to kill a dragon at the high levels is with magic, high SR or no. There was a whole thread on this. :smallamused:

{Scrubbed}

[ericgrau]

So I ran some numbers on the hydra posted a while back and my own 7th level fighter that I have saved somewhere.

He has high damage and AC, but low AB and HP. In the end he only does twice as much damage as my simple core fighter against the typical baddy (low AB). He also has about the same AC and half the HP, so it evens out. At 2x offense, 1/2 defense, and a huge size, you become quite the target. Not to mention the use of 4++ buffs is kinda dubious. Plus I wonder if the shield spell would grow and be any use to the hydra. And this only works at 7th level and only 7th level. Beyond that it becomes less effective compared to the fighter.

If you managed to get such a jump on your opponent that you get that much prep and yet are able to make an attack within a few minutes, at exactly 7th level, outdoors (!) or in a huge dungeon, and if I were DMing, I'd just give it to you. "Okay man, you're a buffed out hydra for the next fight. Let's do this."

Anyway I absolutely love this thread and the opportunity to see different viewpoints on the subject. I was wondering about potential polymorph abuse and I found this thread very informative.

[Starbuck_II]

So I ran some numbers on the hydra posted a while back and my own 7th level fighter that I have saved somewhere.

He has high damage and AC, but low AB and HP. In the end he only does twice as much damage as my simple core fighter against the typical baddy (low AB). He also has about the same AC and half the HP, so it evens out. At 2x offense, 1/2 defense, and a huge size, you become quite the target. Not to mention the use of 4++ buffs is kinda dubious. Plus I wonder if the shield spell would grow and be any use to the hydra. And this only works at 7th level and only 7th level. Beyond that it becomes less effective compared to the fighter.

In 3.0 Shield had facing so it may not protect the Hydra.
In 3.5, Faccing is dead (except for the Beholder) so Shield will work 100%.




If you managed to get such a jump on your opponent that you get that much prep and yet are able to make an attack within a few minutes, at exactly 7th level, outdoors (!) or in a huge dungeon, and if I were DMing, I'd just give it to you. "Okay man, you're a buffed out hydra for the next fight. Let's do this."

Anyway I absolutely love this thread and the opportunity to see different viewpoints on the subject. I was wondering about potential polymorph abuse and I found this thread very informative.

Also, Hydra can wear belts, helmets (which head wears it is question), boots, etc. Magic items (non armor/weapons) resize to fit you when changing size/form (except Druid Wildshape due to errata).

[Rashmi]

Cough heavy fortification armor cough.

Cough Vorpal works regardless of crit immunity cough.


{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}

[Jade_Tarem]

Which is a very good thing. More people should have one.

Um, no. He could have made his point without resorting to a choice of words that was irritating and abrasive when it was new (a long time ago). Doing the *cough* routine added absolutely nothing to his post, and has in fact prompted additional posting that adds nothing to the thread, such as this post. Had he simply gone down the list and stated his disagreements, he would have come off looking looking pretty good; instead his word choice {Scrubbed} He's not wrong. Nothing in his post is wrong. But it could have been more right.

[Oslecamo]

Cough Vorpal works regardless of crit immunity cough.


Vorpal

This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body.

Based on the bolded part, I would say that you need to confirm the critical hit for the vorpal ability to work.

[lord_khaine]

I don't understand this argument, you're saying that polymorph isn't broken because shapechange is?

no, im saying polymorph in itself isnt broken, shapechange is, there isnt any Because in what i said.


You're forgetting that your con immediately skyrockets to 20, netting you a healthy bonus to HP. And, as a wizard, you have access to many combat enhancing buffs
and you are forgetting his HP doesnt change, but frosty allready mentioned this.


The spell does not require that anywhere in the rules listed in the SRD in polymorph or alter self. It's a implication some people take, but it is not by any means a written in requirement.

Furthermore, the rules are not unclear on how to identify a creatures
ok fair enough, familiarity might not be a problem, but it still doesnt change that the creature would actualy have to exist in the campaign, so thats at least a limit on what you can drag in from outside core.


So, you're saying that you won't keep thing's attention because they'll attack casters instead? You're a caster
this is really starting to look like you are misunderstanding me on purpose, i said its not polymorp that does that, and even in hydrashape getting to much attention could be unhealthy.


What other books? MM gives you sphinx and hydra, two of the best forms. And even if you only use it on the party rogue and fighter, it's still overpowered.

actualy its not even close to be some of the best forms, those are found among outsiders, but i would actualy be happy if i ever saw a group work so well together that the wizard would use his highest level spell to buff a partymember.
i dont considder that overpowered, i think of it as teamwork.


Again, refer to the knowledge rules. Your DM can disallow forms however he likes, but that doesn't fix the spell itself.

Moreover, it sucks as a DM to have your choice in monsters limited because anything your wizard sees is fair game to wreak havoc with.

the knowledge rules still doesnt change that you cant change into a imaginary monster.

and as a dm your choice of monsters are allready severly limitet, those very few things in some splatbooks that most people dont use isnt even worthy of being mentioned.

[Talic]

A rogue hydra does not need to sneak up on something to get damage.

Let's look at a level 7 rogue, at the level polymorph is gained.

Fighter engages Uber-mcNastyBeast at melee.
Rogue slides into flank position.
Wizard casts Polymorph on rogue, changing him into a hydra (7 headed).

Fighter whacks monster with his greatsword, power attacking and dealing damage.

Rogue makes 7 attacks, with flank bonus, each for 1d10+4d6+4.

If all hit, total damage is: 7d10+28d6+28. Average is: 38.5+98+28, or 164.5.

At level 7. Now, rogue will likely have a BAB of +5. Add in a +4 str mod, for +9. -2 size, +2 flanking, total attack bonus: +9. Average CR 7 AC (averaged AC of all CR 7 monsters in the SRD) is 18. That's a 60% chance to hit with each attack.
Weighted level 7 damage: 98.7. Something tells me that fighter will be feeling a bit insignificant.

Now, if the rogue had a bite attack already (several playable races do, a couple even have LA 0), then Improved Natural Attack (bite) and Weapon Focus (bite) would be reasonable choices. This would have the following increase in damage:
Bite changes from 1d10 to 2d6.
Total attack damage changes to 14d6+28d6+28, for an average of 49+98+28, or 175.
Chance to hit increases to 65%. Weighted damage becomes 113.75. Compare to average CR 7 hp of 86.52.

This means that, on average, said rogue will 1 shot CR 7 creatures. The highest HP creature at CR 7 in the SRD has 152 hp (earth and water elemental). That means, after 1 full attack, the earth elemental will have, on average, 38.25 (53.3 without weapon focus, INA: Bite) hp remaining. Due to its higher AC, the water elemental receives less damage, resulting in a weighted damage of 87.5 (74.02 without weapon focus and INA: Bite), for remaining HP of 64.5 (77.98). So, basically, this form lets a rogue 1 shot most critters in the CR 7 list, and remove over half the life off the absolute highest HP, higher AC creatures in the list.

So yes, Hydra, that's not pretty.

[Gorbash]

Now, if the rogue had a bite attack already (several playable races do, a couple even have LA 0), then Improved Natural Attack (bite) and Weapon Focus (bite) would be reasonable choices.

That's a bit of a stretch. We're talking about regular races/creatures here, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing Hydras... And seriously, weapon focus is never a good choice, least of all for a rogue...

[Rashmi]

Vorpal

This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body.

Based on the bolded part, I would say that you need to confirm the critical hit for the vorpal ability to work.

And yet if you quote all the entry it says: "Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads."

Which very much implies that Golems and undead despite being immune to crits are still deheadified.

This is because being "immune to critical hits" just means you are immune to extra damage, not to the auto-hit, and not to the vorpal ability (if the confirm the crit role)

It is similarly why the Rogue feat Savvy Rogue even specifically says under the crippling strike entry "You deal Str damage even to targets immune to the extra damage from sneak attack."

A line that is rather pointless if immunity to critical hits prevents crits and SA from occuring instead of just allowing you to prevent all damage.

[Aquillion]

Just because you can houserule doesn't change the broken-ation of the ability. I will admit you can only sell sop many Vorpal swords to same city before it gets staturated (so worth less) (DMG gives this suggestion for mundane longswords though).Technically, it's debatable. The ability says that they carry a vorpal sword, not simply that they start with one. Therefore, you must carry a vorpal sword (unless you're in an AMF or something.) It doesn't say anything about losing or replacing it, so this could be interpreted to mean that you simply can't -- it's SU because it's an extension of the Balor or something, and can never leave their possession. They must carry it at all times.

DM call, of course, but it isn't a houserule -- this is one of those cases where the rules simply do not say one way or the other. They say all Balors have the supernatural quality of always carrying a +1 vorpal sword, but say nothing about what happens when a Balor encounters a situation that would violate this requirement (like dropping it, or selling it, or giving it away.) Interpreting this to mean that it can't be violated is a perfectly valid option, just as valid (and no more or less a houserule) as interpreting it to mean that it can.


Based on the bolded part, I would say that you need to confirm the critical hit for the vorpal ability to work.There are some other weapon specials which specifically allow you to roll to confirm a critical even against enemies immune to criticals (because the weapon has some other special that goes off on a critical, which isn't influenced by immunity.) They also say that in this case you don't get the critical multiplier, but they say nothing about vorpal instakills, so technically (since Vorpal triggers whenever you confirm a critical on a 20), you when you combine those two abilities on a weapon, it can get vorpal kills even on enemies immune to criticals.

However, the enemy must still have a head, and be something that dies when it is removed. The most common critical-immune enemies (constructs, undead, oozes) either have no head or don't care if you cut theirs off. So the usefulness of this exploit is quite limited.

[Abstruse]

The real question is: If I shapechange into a Balor, do I gain a Vorpal Sword?

Probably. Of course, since shapechange descends from alter self,


Alter Self
... Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

Which means, since you manifested it from nothing, it returns to nothing. You don't get infinite vorpal swords to sell.

[Talic]

That's a bit of a stretch. We're talking about regular races/creatures here, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing Hydras... And seriously, weapon focus is never a good choice, least of all for a rogue...

Yes, it is. Which is why I included numbers at all steps for NOT having those two. Though a kobold with the web enhancement update for them has a bite attack, and would be a decent candidate for that ability. Not a good build, but possible. Hence both numbers.

[Chronos]

However, the enemy must still have a head, and be something that dies when it is removed. The most common critical-immune enemies (constructs, undead, oozes) either have no head or don't care if you cut theirs off. So the usefulness of this exploit is quite limited.I think the specific example that sent this tangent off was humanoids with heavy fortification armor. They're immune to crits, but will still suffer from loss of their head.

[lord_khaine]

not that the hydra-rogue didnt do some brutal damage there, but its a combo that do take a bit of team effort to pull off, its relying on both the rogue and the figher getting in position, and the wizard to cast a level 4 spell on the rogue.

so at this point i dont think we can take it as proof that its polymorp thats bustet.

[Gorbash]

You've had 4 pages people giving proof WHY polymorph is busted over and over and now you're saying it isn't just because the particular use that Talic gave requires teamwork...?

[ericgrau]

Also, Hydra can wear belts, helmets (which head wears it is question), boots, etc. Magic items (non armor/weapons) resize to fit you when changing size/form (except Druid Wildshape due to errata).

Oh, then I could see how that could be problematic to some degree. Another +1 or +2 here and there would be just enough to throw it off-balance in the hydras favor. With bull's strength and bear's endurance covered, there's not much left to buff, but a ring of protection and amulet of natural armor could do the trick. And that's just on the wizard. On the rogue and fighter it seems to get worse. Though I think allowing a hydra rogue to properly aim for a smaller creature's vitals is questionable, flanking or not.

But even then I don't see it as horribly broken. The wizard can deal similar (or perhaps a little less) damage compared to the hydra fighter with an empowered scorching ray (2 rays at that level). It takes more spell slots to do it every round, but it's ranged, it's a touch attack, and it doesn't require making the fighter into such an easy target with his heavily debuffed AC. The hydra rogue does quite a bit more damage (assuming sneak attack is allowed) but also has quite a bit lower HP.

If the wizard has a free buffing round or a BBEG fight lasting more than 2-4 rounds he can do both. Or I've heard some other buffs do more than direct damage. Well, mostly just haste. I just used empowered scorching ray as a baseline since damage-to-damage is easy to compare. You might know more effective spells that don't deal damage.

The rogue's lower HP, his lower AB and lack of the hydra's fast healing/regeneration also makes the rogue much more vulnerable to the hydra's existing weakness: sunder. But that usually requires a knowledgeable baddy (or maybe one that just likes to sunder). I'm just saying he's highly vulnerable even w/o it, and in more trouble if the monster tries it.

And as for whether or not all of the wizard's spells are therefore busted, well that's another issue.

Oslecamo:
Even though you must crit on a nautral 20 (only) and confirm the crit with a vorpal sword, its text says that it still works against crit immune baddies. But not headless baddies or those not affected by the loss of their heads.

[Gorbash]

Oh, then I could see how that could be problematic to some degree. Another +1 or +2 here and there would be just enough to throw it off-balance in the hydras favor. With bull's strength and bear's endurance covered, there's not much left to buff, but a ring of protection and amulet of natural armor could do the trick

Not much left to buff?!

How about - Mage Armor, Shield, Cat's Grace, Haste, Heroism, Wraithstrike (all your attack are touch attacks for 1 round, swift action to cast), Hearth of Earth (for free stoneskin + temp hp + ), False Life, Dragonskin (Natural armor + energy resistance), Protection from X (for immunity to mind affecting spells and some deflection bonus). Which gives you an AC of about... 35 I think. Immunity to mind affecting spells, energy resistance, decent attack capabilities (8d10+ 40 at least), bunch of temp hp, damage reduction,and most buffs are 10 min/lvl or hour/lvl, you can safely cast them before combat except haste and polymorph. Yeah, you could argue that that's a lot of spells used on buffing, but if you know a big fight is coming, there's no way you'd lose.

At lvl 7.

[ericgrau]

Not much in core anyway. And mage armor and shield were already covered in that mage build as well. You could also add mage armor to the fighter or rogue, I suppose, but not shield (personal spell). Plus he already had 4-5 prep rounds. I suppose if you still had prep rounds left over (or any at all to begin with) you could tack on haste and heroism in core. Heroism is nice, but with 7 attacks already, what's the big deal about getting 8 w/ haste?

Protection from X AC and ring of protection don't stack.

And if you got such a tremendous drop on a baddy that you had 6-8 (!) prep rounds without being noticed, and you have an open enough place to bring in a hydra, mind you, and you happened to prepare mostly buff spells that day, you better be mopping the floor with the baddies - or it'll make for one heck of a BBEG fight like you said. If anything it's more of a nova issue. Blowing all your spells in a single combat tends to do that regardless.

[Gorbash]

Who said anything about core only? But even if that's the case, out of the spells listed, only 3 are not from core.

I know they don't stack, but in case you don't have a ring of protection +2, Protection from X will do.

[ericgrau]

Okay then you have, what, 9 buff rounds? To cast spells with verbal components. In an open area. Undetected, hopefully, or you could burn 1-2 more rounds and a silence spell or two (3rd level IIRC). Last DM I was with capped prep time around 3 rounds before a BBEG fight. I suppose it all depends on the limits of your DM's sanity, your spell slots and what spells you plan on having leftover for the rest of the BBEG fight. But if you wanted to save 5-7 rounds worth of good spells, that doesn't leave as many buffs.

EDIT: And, outside of haste (which isn't so spectacular on a hydra), most buffs I see are weaker than other options and are best used when you have the free prep time (and/or a really long fight) and when you still leave enough spell slots for later. So, while powerful, buffing out an ally polymorphed into a hydra hardly seems more broken than the wizard's other options.

[Gorbash]

Like I said, most spells I listed last for an hour or more, so you don't have to cast them in combat (it's apsurd, except for haste or some quickened ones), but when you know what you're up against. And with Divination magic/scrying/etc, you should know.

Nobody said it's broken when used on a rogue/fighter (it's still good, though) - it's broken in the case I explained since you don't need a party because you're a 7 headed monster who is almost invurnable.

If you think buffs I listed are weak, try them out in a fight and see what happens. I know, from personal experience, that you can rip to shreds almost anything and yes, you can do it other ways to (battlefield control), but this is just one of the ways to do it, and it sure is broken, and as you go up in levels it just gets worse.

[ericgrau]

Oh, I already moved past the wizard hydra and onto the fighter & rogue hydras, seeing that they were stronger. In a previous post I found that the buffed wizard hydra someone posted dealt twice as much damage per round as my unbuffed vanilla fighter 7 build (higher #attacks, much lower AB, slightly lower damage per hit => 2x DPR). But he also had similar AC and half the HP, so it evens out.

[Chronos]

Let's not get too carried away discussing the hydra, though. The spell isn't Hydramorph, it's Polymorph. If you're in a situation where a hydra would be optimal, you can turn yourself or one of your buddies into a hydra, but if you're in a situation where something else would be optimal, you can turn into something else. But for almost any situation you might find yourself in, there's some form or another you could Polymorph into, which would make the situation better for you.

[ericgrau]

I think the hydra came up b/c it's viewed as extra powerful. That may be b/c it's supposed to be weak against sundering its heads and burning the stumps, and monsters may not always have the knowledge and/or resources to do such.

But how about I propose a different tangent now, based on Chronos' comment (and something I've wanted to know for a while)? Instead of power, let's take a look at versatility. Could someone give (an) example(s) of using polymorph to overcome a very specific situation or situations, simply b/c the PC knows every monster in the MM and pumped his knowledge skills as necessary? Specifically, I don't want yet antoher way to make a strong all-around combatant.

[Gorbash]

I think the hydra came up b/c it's viewed as extra powerful. That may be b/c it's supposed to be weak against sundering its heads and burning the stumps, and monsters may not always have the knowledge and/or resources to do such.

Actually, sundering its heads is a pretty stupid idea, since first of all you deal only half the damage to the body, second of all, in 1d4 rounds two more heads will grow out (unless you burn the stump). So why bother with that, when you can just attack the body and kill it with no sundering and then burning the stump nonsense?


But how about I propose a different tangent now, based on Chronos comment (and something I've wanted to know for a while)? Instead of power, let's take a look at versatility. Could someone give (an) example(s) of using polymorph to overcome a very specific situation or situations, simply b/c the PC knows every monster in the MM and pumped his knowledge skills as necessary? Specifically, I don't want yet antoher way to make a strong all-around combatant.

Gaining the creatures modes of movement. Bullete's burrowing, for example. I'm sure someone will think of something else.

[Aquillion]

Okay then you have, what, 9 buff rounds? To cast spells with verbal components.That's what a Planar Bubble to Dal Quor is for. :smalltongue:

[Uin]

On a related note, what cool/effective/broken things can I do with a standard PHB race Wizard and Alter Self?

[Talic]

Exactly. If you need to get into a room? Ooze! Under the door.

If you need to hide in a forest? Treant! And don't move.

There are a million uses for polymorph. Some aren't overpowered; some are.

The spell combos well with most good spells. For example, if a rogue can UMD the polymorph, and gets a greater invisibility from the wizard, now it goes off quicker, without flanking.

Hydra + wraithstrike? Now even the wizard has no trouble hitting most things, moreso if he's a gish.

High movement? Any of a large number of birds. At sea? Shark, dolphin, squid, etc.

Need Flight? Change into a raptoran, or bird, or later on, into other winged-type critters.

The spell does so many things, in so many ways, that it's beyond the power curve for a 4th level spell.

[tarbrush]

On a related note, what cool/effective/broken things can I do with a standard PHB race Wizard and Alter Self?

Troglodyte (I think) for +6 Natural armour. Disguises. Movement types as for polymorph. Lots of others too.

[DigoDragon]

This is part of the problem with these spells, actually... shapechange inherits behaviour from polymorph, which inherits from alter self, so you have to read three different spell descriptions to figure out what shapechange actually does, or two for polymorph, and it's not always as clear as it might be about which behaviours are inherited and which are overridden.

Yeah, personally the biggest problem I've had as the DM with these spells is the wording. Just reading the 5 pages of this thread shows that there's a metric ton of interpretations on what you can/can't get with a shapechage.

To me that seems where the big chunk of the "brokenness" is from. :smallsmile:

In my experience, informing the players (particularly the druids and the spellcasters) before each campaign start on how I interpret these 'poly-' spells helps alliviate some of the cracks of a broken spell. I use the most recent errata on the WotC site with a couple house rules of my own. Still makes for a powerful set of spells, but it's a bit more managable when the rules are more clear-cut. The broken factor now is largely dependant on how creative a spell caster is. :smalltongue:
But that's just my experience.

[Starbuck_II]

Probably. Of course, since shapechange descends from alter self,



Which means, since you manifested it from nothing, it returns to nothing. You don't get infinite vorpal swords to sell.

Shapechange nullifies that entry into null and void. Shapechange says they don't revert. Primary (Shapechange) beats secondary (alterSelf) in this case.

Shapechange:
You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

Did you not read the spell?

Uin:


On a related note, what cool/effective/broken things can I do with a standard PHB race Wizard and Alter Self?

Troglydyde is it (+6 Na).
If you can be an Aasimar or other native outsider: Dwarf Ancester for +15 Natural armor.

Warforged can become animated objects. Some are good.

[John Campbell]

Exactly. If you need to get into a room? Ooze! Under the door.
Congratulations. You've just used one of your limited selection of 4th level spells to accomplish something that the rogue has a better and unlimited-use solution for. Or that you could do easily and fairly cheaply with a wand of knock without touching your regular spell slots.


If you need to hide in a forest? Treant! And don't move.
Or you could just turn yourself invisible for the same duration with a 2nd level spell, and be hidden anywhere and difficult to detect even if you move.


There are a million uses for polymorph. Some aren't overpowered; some are.

The spell combos well with most good spells. For example, if a rogue can UMD the polymorph, and gets a greater invisibility from the wizard, now it goes off quicker, without flanking.

Hydra + wraithstrike? Now even the wizard has no trouble hitting most things, moreso if he's a gish.
Except that wraithstrike only lasts a round, and you can't cast it as a hydra without metamagicking it up, so by the time you actually get your attacks off, it's expired. You're still better off polymorphing the rogue, who can use the ability to tumble into flanking and still multiattack to stack up ludicrous sneak attack dice, or the fighter, who's got the BAB to use those attacks effectively and the hit points to handle the heat he'll be catching in response. And you can stay in your normal - spellcasting-capable - form and keep throwing the buffs and the support spells while they're using their actions for the biting.

(And, again, I don't have any objection to the spell being used like this. This is the way adventuring parties are supposed to work.)


High movement? Any of a large number of birds. At sea? Shark, dolphin, squid, etc.

Need Flight? Change into a raptoran, or bird, or later on, into other winged-type critters.
At minutes-per-level, it really doesn't work as a travel spell. You're better off using fly for tactical movement, or overland flight if you want to travel.


The spell does so many things, in so many ways, that it's beyond the power curve for a 4th level spell.
It does a lot of things, but most of them kind of half-assed, and you've usually got a better solution at a lower level, frequently low enough to be economically wandable. It does have the advantage of versatility, but, y'know, there's a reason that I don't often prep Rary's mnemonic enhancer, versatile though it is.



Shapechange nullifies that entry into null and void. Shapechange says they don't revert. Primary (Shapechange) beats secondary (alterSelf) in this case.


[...] Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

Did you not read the spell?
I don't believe that's intended to mean that separated bits remain shapechanged after the spell duration expires, merely that they don't immediately revert back as they do with the lesser spells in the family. So, yeah, you can make and sell vorpal blades, but you're going to have some pissed-off buyers in a couple hours.

[tiercel]

There are quite a few issues with polymorph.

First of all, there are just rules confusion issues -- exactly what abilities can and can't you gain, which creature types are "humanoid enough" that your equipment doesn't meld away, etc.

Second of all, there is the infinite adaptability and expandability issue -- every time the DM allows another type of monster into the game (additional MM supplement + successful Knowledge(X) check, or whenever the DM introduces a monster as an emey), the spell gets better at no cost.

Third, and most simply, is the "straight upgrade" problem. Sure, you can polymorph into a hydra or dragon or something, but you lose access to all your equipment -- and the higher level you get, the bigger a deal that is. The problem comes when you choose forms that are essentially humanoid, so you get big bonuses and no downside.

Take, for instance, the benefits of polymorphing into a troll (a very commonly accessible form, and certainly HD-accessible to any mage capable of casting the spell):

+4 AC (+5 natural -1 size)
Base physical stats set to Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23
10' reach, claw natural attacks, rend attack
Healing equal to resting for a night
Immune to spells targeting "person", proficiency with all simple and martial weapons (due to giant type)

while keeping all your equipment. That's a pretty strong application -- by itself -- for polymorph, even if that's the only thing that it *ever* did.

But polymorph lets you do so much more, allowing different forms for utility, fun types and subtypes (e.g. elemental subtypes, potential abuse of awaken), and scaling up both with level and with number of monster supplements allowed/known.

By higher levels, a PC sorcerer can spam polymorph to turn the entire party into stone giants for any significant combat; there's no downside if you have the time to cast several spells in a row, and significant upside (nice ability scores, but also +10 AC and benefits as above). While it is perhaps unsurprising that high-level spellcasters can bend or break the game, you'd at least hope it would be their high-level spells giving the DM fits -- not their mid-level ones.

[Talic]

Congratulations. You've just used one of your limited selection of 4th level spells to accomplish something that the rogue has a better and unlimited-use solution for. Or that you could do easily and fairly cheaply with a wand of knock without touching your regular spell slots.

Or you could just turn yourself invisible for the same duration with a 2nd level spell, and be hidden anywhere and difficult to detect even if you move.

Except that wraithstrike only lasts a round, and you can't cast it as a hydra without metamagicking it up, so by the time you actually get your attacks off, it's expired. You're still better off polymorphing the rogue, who can use the ability to tumble into flanking and still multiattack to stack up ludicrous sneak attack dice, or the fighter, who's got the BAB to use those attacks effectively and the hit points to handle the heat he'll be catching in response. And you can stay in your normal - spellcasting-capable - form and keep throwing the buffs and the support spells while they're using their actions for the biting.

(And, again, I don't have any objection to the spell being used like this. This is the way adventuring parties are supposed to work.)OR you could have the Accelerate metamagic feat with Silent and still, and get no increase in casting time. But that's neither here nor there.


At minutes-per-level, it really doesn't work as a travel spell. You're better off using fly for tactical movement, or overland flight if you want to travel.


It does a lot of things, but most of them kind of half-assed, and you've usually got a better solution at a lower level, frequently low enough to be economically wandable. It does have the advantage of versatility, but, y'know, there's a reason that I don't often prep Rary's mnemonic enhancer, versatile though it is. The point is that it can duplicate 80% of a HUNDRED spells. It can duplicate other class features. It can get you through places a halfling with a +30 escape artist couldn't get. It can do any of that, and you don't have to decide until you cast it. Yes, you could memorize knock, fly, invisibility, water breathing, and a dozen other spells, and get 6 others put into a wand...

Or you can memorize polymorph.

Now you see? I hope so.

[Innis Cabal]

Natural spell......thats all

[Gorbash]

Natural spell......thats all

{Scrubbed}

[Leewei]

Natural Spell modifies wildshape, which is an errata'd Alternate Form ability. It's tangential to this thread.

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a)'s a great article about the abusiveness inherent in polymorph.

My own issue with it is that it can grant someone a Strength bonus far beyond (and stacking with) bull's strength while simultaneously granting immunity to mind-affecting effects, poison and critical hits, as well as a 15' reach. Any of these might be worthy of a 4th level spell individually. One package, however, is simply too good.

[Gorbash]

You don't lose your ability to speak, so it has nothing to do with this thread. Even if you did, nobody was talking about casting spells while polymorphed, but what can you do while polymorphed. So, again, nothing to do with this thread.

[Waspinator]

Any transformation magic that changes your stats to that of any creature of a given category has problems if nothing else because that means that the spell's potential power grows over time as more books are released and new valid choices added. The approach that I think is a lot better is stuff like the PHB II Druid variant, which allows you to change your appearance into pretty much anything you want but gives you a flat set of bonuses for a given category of creature.

[Leewei]

You don't lose your ability to speak, so it has nothing to do with this thread.
Interesting. So you can polymorph into a talking ooze? (Genuinely curious here.)

[Gorbash]

RAW doesn't stop you. Although, it is silly and it should be houseruled.

[ericgrau]

So I read the WotC site, and they mentioned a major problem that was enough for me to get off the fence and decide that I would not allow polymorph in a game:
It creates an unacceptable slowdown in play.

I would still allow wild shape, since that's limited to animals, plant creatures and elementals. Just no gear while wild shaped. And no natural spell, or perhaps a highly nerfed natural spell. Those can really break wild shape. Sound good?

[Waspinator]

So I read the WotC site, and they mentioned a major problem that was enough for me to get off the fence and decide that I would not allow polymorph in a game:
It creates an unacceptable slowdown in play.

I would still allow wild shape, since that's limited to animals, plant creatures and elementals. Just no gear while wild shaped. And no natural spell, or perhaps a highly nerfed natural spell. Those can really break wild shape. Sound good?

That's why I like the Player's Handbook II Druid variant. No messy "Ok, let's break out the Monster Manual and figure out what turning into an ooze does to your stats". You have pre-determined stat boosts that you gain while transformed, so you can just write a couple of notes on your character sheet as to what your stats are in each form category.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That's why I like the Player's Handbook II Druid variant. No messy "Ok, let's break out the Monster Manual and figure out what turning into an ooze does to your stats". You have pre-determined stat boosts that you gain while transformed, so you can just write a couple of notes on your character sheet as to what your stats are in each form category.My Druid always had that anyways. Each time I levelled, I ran an SRD search and went through MMIII for animals with my new level in HD. Then, I went through my excel file with the animals I could transform into, and swapped out ones those which were less useful. After that, I re-went through and calculated my new stats in each form. Then I hit print. I was able to Wildshape in the same amount of time it took for the Wild Mage to use Magic Missile. The Druid, if played right, takes as much bookkeeping as a Wizard to avoid stopping the game, but I was able to Wildshape, have my companion attack, have my summonings attack, and roll everything in the time it took for the Ninja to decide what to do that round. You just have to put in some time outside the game to do so.

[arguskos]

As much as I love that level of commitment Sstoopidtallkid, most players aren't going to do so much as pick a list of forms they like before they wildshape/polymorph/alter self/whatever. From a DMing stand-point, I can see how banning those effects can accelerate gameplay (and frankly, I tend to ban the polymorph/shapechange spells, alter the wildshape feature to the PHB2 thing, and hope I didn't miss anything :smallwink:).

-argus

[Iku Rex]

Interesting. So you can polymorph into a talking ooze? (Genuinely curious here.)No.

"If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally." -- polymorph/alter self

***

As for why polymorph and its relatives are busted, the main reason is that they're the best buff spells around, and every new book published with more monsters makes them better.

Alter self into a tren (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=4) (SerpKing) and you have +8 natural armor, bite attack, claws, swim speed, Multiattack and hide bonus for 10 min/level. If you're an outsider you can pick the dwarf ancestor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3) for for+18 natural armor and Large size. I dare y'all to find a better level 2 buff.

As for polymorph, it gets really ugly if you specialize in melee. When a fully buffed abjurant champion (CMag) changes into a war troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6), very few CR appropriate "challenges" are particularly challenging. Even core forms like the annis (hag) or treant make melee focused arcane casters a terror once they get access to polymorph. Not to mention that you can change the fighter instead/as well.

On top of all this, the spells are badly written and stupidly designed, leading to constant arguments over how they're supposed to work.

[John Campbell]

OR you could have the Accelerate metamagic feat with Silent and still, and get no increase in casting time. But that's neither here nor there.
I was thinking a real wizard, anyway, not one of these "Oh, look at me, I'm so kewl because I've totally got dragon blood!" amateurs, so no casting time increase from metamagics regardless. But there's still level adjustment from the metamagics.


The point is that it can duplicate 80% of a HUNDRED spells. It can duplicate other class features. It can get you through places a halfling with a +30 escape artist couldn't get. It can do any of that, and you don't have to decide until you cast it. Yes, you could memorize knock, fly, invisibility, water breathing, and a dozen other spells, and get 6 others put into a wand...

Or you can memorize polymorph.
And still have to memorize/wand/scroll/whatever all of those other spells, because polymorph, unlike shapechange, doesn't give you the option of changing your mind every round for the duration of the spell. You're stuck with whatever form you pick when you first polymorph, with your only option being to switch back to your natural form. You'll get one of those effects, maybe a couple if you're lucky enough that the ones you need can be covered by a single form, and probably not quite the optimal effect for the situation, and probably using a higher level slot than it would've taken you to just cast the optimal spell.

As I already hinted, Rary's mnemonic enhancer is much better at this, in that it gives you 100% of every single Wiz spell up to third level, and two or three of them for each mnemonic enhancer slot for the lower-level ones. Yet, no one goes around claiming that Rary's mnemonic enhancer is totally broken. Part of that is the casting time, but most of it is that it just isn't all that valuable to be able to use a high-level spell slot to duplicate an arbitrary lower-level spell when there are wands and scrolls that let you do it without limit using reasonable amounts of gold instead of your limited spell slots.


So I read the WotC site, and they mentioned a major problem that was enough for me to get off the fence and decide that I would not allow polymorph in a game:
It creates an unacceptable slowdown in play.
Yeah, that's a problem. But it's not an insurmountable one. When I used polymorph regularly (on my familiar), I kept a list of potentially useful forms and had my familiar's stats for each form, what changed and what didn't, already figured out and recorded, so polymorphing him was just a matter of saying, "Hreysiköttr's a wyvern now," and swapping out his sheet and mini. Sometimes I had to tweak some stuff, because I wasn't always real diligent about keeping his polyforms up to date when I leveled up, but that was usually stuff I could just copy from my main character sheet (just HP/HD, BAB, and base saves, usually), not things I had to look up in one of 27 different monster books which might or might not be handy for a given session. Casting enlarge person produced more playing-time bookkeeping.

The druid's plain-vanilla animal companions (plural, yes... Beastmaster) were a bigger problem, because she was always losing their stats, so she had to re-copy their base forms out of the MM and then figure out how they changed with the animal companion feature, including advancement with increased HD, practically every time we got into a fight.

[Occasional Sage]

Rich, our illustrious Giant, dislikes the Polymorph chain and uses this article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) (and the second part to which he links in the text) to enumerate the spells' problems and proposes a solution. Even if you don't like his solution, it's thoughtful and provocative.

[Jade_Tarem]

Rich, our illustrious Giant, dislikes the Polymorph chain and uses this article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) (and the second part to which he links in the text) to enumerate the spells' problems and proposes a solution. Even if you don't like his solution, it's thoughtful and provocative.

*Sniff* It's like I don't even exist... :smallfrown:

[Talic]

I was thinking a real wizard, anyway, not one of these "Oh, look at me, I'm so kewl because I've totally got dragon blood!" amateurs, so no casting time increase from metamagics regardless. But there's still level adjustment from the metamagics.Level adjustment is the easy part. No really. And bashing a class hints at a failing argument.


And still have to memorize/wand/scroll/whatever all of those other spells, because polymorph, unlike shapechange, doesn't give you the option of changing your mind every round for the duration of the spell. You're stuck with whatever form you pick when you first polymorph, with your only option being to switch back to your natural form. You'll get one of those effects, maybe a couple if you're lucky enough that the ones you need can be covered by a single form, and probably not quite the optimal effect for the situation, and probably using a higher level slot than it would've taken you to just cast the optimal spell.Ah yes, because I'm going to need to get past a door, fly over a ravine, suddenly get high AC, climb up a chimney, and dive into the pool of water, all in a 4 round span. Mmm hmm, yep. Let's face it, if the DM puts that many obstacles up? He doesn't want you going there. Polymorph can nearly duplicate many many effects, some of them below 4th level in power, some above. It can duplicate +5 armor enhancements (immune to crits), protect from stunning, poison, paralysis, and anything that targets humans, along with giving better attacks and AC... with 1 spell. It can be used as one of the better subterfuge spells, allowing you to assume innocuous forms. It can do many, many things. It's widely considered by almost everyone who does serious Charop to be way too powerful for its level.

Now, either everyone else who has been doing this for years, both here and at wizards charop, doesn't know what they're talking about, and all those effects are underpowered compared to memorizing 17 spells in lower level slots...

Or you're wrong.

Let's apply Occam's razor to this one.

As I already hinted, Rary's mnemonic enhancer is much better at this, in that it gives you 100% of every single Wiz spell up to third level, and two or three of them for each mnemonic enhancer slot for the lower-level ones. Yet, no one goes around claiming that Rary's mnemonic enhancer is totally broken. Part of that is the casting time, but most of it is that it just isn't all that valuable to be able to use a high-level spell slot to duplicate an arbitrary lower-level spell when there are wands and scrolls that let you do it without limit using reasonable amounts of gold instead of your limited spell slots.Sigh. Most people don't do the disposable wealth breakdowns to learn what is "reasonable" for disposable item expenses. For example, when you're level 7? Certainly not enough to use very much in the way of wands, and DEFINATELY WBL not enough to afford more than a couple. Please, use the encounter wealth table in your DMG to determine how much total wealth a level 7 character should gain in 14 encounters. Then, take the WBL for a level 8, and subtract the WBL for a level 7. The first number is the amount you actually gain. The second is how much you should gain. The difference? That is how much you can afford to blow on wands without eventually becoming a level 20 character with the WBL of a level 15.

[Occasional Sage]

*Sniff* It's like I don't even exist... :smallfrown:

Not at all, JT! You were there quickly, and your flag was apparently ignored. I'm hoping that providing a link (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) to the article will encourage people to read it.

I wasn't ninja'd by a large order of magnitude; I'm standing on the shoulder of a Giant. :smallwink:

[Jade_Tarem]

Not at all, JT! You were there quickly, and your flag was apparently ignored. I'm hoping that providing a link (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) to the article will encourage people to read it.

I wasn't ninja'd by a large order of magnitude; I'm standing on the shoulder of a Giant. :smallwink:

Of a giant ninja, maybe. :smalltongue: I do agree with what you did there, though, in terms of getting attention.

Occasional Sage: "Giant! Fixed! Right Here!"

[Occasional Sage]

Great, thanks. Now I have the image of a 25' ninja trying to hide behind shrubs.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, that's a problem. But it's not an insurmountable one. When I used polymorph regularly (on my familiar), I kept a list of potentially useful forms and had my familiar's stats for each form, what changed and what didn't, already figured out and recorded, so polymorphing him was just a matter of saying, "Hreysiköttr's a wyvern now," and swapping out his sheet and mini. Sometimes I had to tweak some stuff, because I wasn't always real diligent about keeping his polyforms up to date when I leveled up, but that was usually stuff I could just copy from my main character sheet (just HP/HD, BAB, and base saves, usually), not things I had to look up in one of 27 different monster books which might or might not be handy for a given session. Casting enlarge person produced more playing-time bookkeeping.

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind if any player wants to try it. Though unless I run into some veteran players it might not even come up.

[aarondirebear]

It was in one of the extra monster manuals, cant remember which though. I dont even know the fluff on it, all I know is that its some sort of huge white Ooze which sucks out skeletons, and as a wizard with polymorph, what else do u need to know? :smalltongue:

Well, then its the Bone ooze thats broken.
I mean look at the Jovoc.

Most monster manual II monsters are bleeding ridiculous.

[Gorbash]

^3.0 at its best.

[Occasional Sage]

Well, then its the Bone ooze thats broken.
I mean look at the Jovoc.

Most monster manual II monsters are bleeding ridiculous.

If the bone ooze is broken, then what does that say about the spell that allows you to utilize the bone ooze stat block? Or the stat block of the other billion monsters that WotC has spammed us without without thinking through the repercussions?

While there may be a problem with the bone ooze, this thread clearly shows that the problems in the polymorph chain transcend any one critter. Players will, by and large, abuse whatever you put in front of them. It's the nature of the game.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Well, then its the Bone ooze thats broken.
I mean look at the Jovoc.

Most monster manual II monsters are bleeding ridiculous.

Which is part of Polymorph's problem, no inherent limit to what you can turn into.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi everyone,

interesting thread - for once I realise that I'm not as alone in believing polymorph is not broken - if only you apply the rules.

But then it's also fascinating to see how posters who normally say that casters are uber promote the banning/overblowing of polymorph. The reason? Simple. Polymorph is a great buffing spell for NON-CASTERS (in particular those non-casters that are powerful without manufactured weapons - you know which class probably...:smallbiggrin:). Only why caster uberness make their continuous (maybe even deliberate?) rules misinterpretations and what it gains them remains a big mystery to me.

For casters, though, in particular the wizard, it is just stupid to use. Polymorph into an ooze or hydra even and lose all somatic (or all somatic/vocal) spellcasting for the duration of the spell. While having low hp and no combat abilities to speak of. Yeah, that's a great strategy for a caster.

Funnily also by wizard uberness believers, the 4th level polymorph spell is a big no-no, whereas the no-save spells of the same level (core, even: solid fog and black tentacles) are fine and every arcane caster should have them, meaning "they win". Ah, the irony.:smallamused: And the druid uberness believers do the same stuff with wildshape: the min/lvl dispellable polymorph is broken, but the 24/7 supernatural (=non-dispellable) wildshape is not. Youpidouh...:smallbiggrin:

And the number of fallacies many polymorph banners here provide as reasons why they believe the morph stuff is overpowered is simply fascinating.

Highlights I saw so far:
- morph gives higher hp due to CON bonus applied (no, it does not)
- morph gives you back all hp when re-casting it (no, it does not - it gives back hp for a night's rest)
- you can change via alter self into a ravid and get fly/super AC (no, you cannot, since you cannot change into an outsider, or you lose a level by being one in core, not that great an idea).
- getting non-core material makes polymorph broken. (no, it does not, since all non-core material is optional and creatures like mineral dwarf or whatever are EXTREMELY rare to even exist in any given campaign).
- getting +xy natural AC wins. (No, of course not. Get grappled and you'll think twice about the awesomeness of a natural AC bonus. In particular wizards feeling safe with that will get grounded by grapplign attacks)
- shapechange is broken because you can change into anything. (No, you can't, you can change only into forms you are "familiar" with. That the core rules do not provide a definition for that term means you should apply common sense. And knowing the MM by heart is not that common sense.:smallsmile:)
- shapechange is broken because you can turn into a choker and do one more standard action in core (no, it is not. First, see prvs entry. Second, there is a huge debate still going on whether chokers can even cast spells without proper hands to exert the fine movents for somatic components of the spells. In doubt, your DM will not allow it. Ah, and a wizard still has his squishy CON and hp. Just get time stop instead).
- you get spell-like abilities with shapechange (or polymorph even). (No, you don't. You never get any spell-like abilities or spell knowledge with any morph stuff).
etc.

But the best fallacy, and something which I also overlooked so far is:
- hydra gives its mutliple-head-attack plus move (btw not as a standard action!) as an ability to polymorph users.
No, guys, it does not, by the RAW.
Polymorph is based on the Alter Self spell, and this says crystal clearly:
"A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."
Note also that the alter self spell does not provide you with any specialties explicities that could include a multi-head attack with a standard action.
And, the polymorph spell description only mentions extraordinary attacks as granted by the spell ontop of alter self (apart from the STR, DEX score and healing, as well as more forms to choose from) - but the hydra ability to move/charge and full attack with its heads is NOT an extraordinary ability. This non-categorisation may be an oversight by the rules, but it avoids nicely any abuse (in case anyone still doubts the clear alter safe statement.)
And even so, who would wish just have a move of 20ft at those levels? And get -8 to hide checks for size to rogues is just horrid.

But of course everyone can houserule to have polymorph become a broken spell. But you could also do that with magic missile.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

You *can* use Alter Self to fly. It's called Altering yourself into a Raptoran. Not core, but so what?

Non-core materials are optional, but shoudl you decide to include them, they are ALL now fair game.

Competent optimizers never say one gains SLAs with Shapechange. Only amateurs say that.

Getting humongous Natural Armor is a good thing. If you are against a grappler, cast Scintillating Scales to make your NA turn into a Deflection bonus. Let's see them make that Touch Attack now. also, Heart of Water is only a 3rd level spell that lasts hours per level. Discharge as a swift action to get out of a grapple. Then, Fly out of range.

[Sir Giacomo]

Also, commenting on Rich Burlew's article on polymorph:

1) This point criticises all-knowing players, although their characters should not even know by what happened in the camaign and what even the knowledge skill does what a choker is. That is entirely up to the DM. In essence, imo Rich does not attack the morph stuff per se, but what people make of it (DM's too lenient, players too greedy, both misinterpreting the rules).

2) Here Rich does not address rules imbalances, but rather fluff. Actually, he proposes providing Special qualities once you assume the form of the creature. This would add to the power of morph, not limit it as the spells do in the RAW.

3) Here, Rich overlooks that CON is still an issue (only STR and DEX change with morph+). And, he in particular attacks wildshape :smallbiggrin: Morph, lasting only min/level would leave a fighter betting on morph very weak indeed for most of the day.

4) What potential abuse is there for getting the creature type of the creature you shape into? For every advantage, there may be a disadvantage looming. For instance, you could change into an animal and become the subject of an animal growth spell. However, you then also become susceptible to the low-level hide from animals spell.

5) Here, the supernatural ability part of shapechange is addressed. Unfortunately, Rich overlooks the "familiar" part of the shapechange spell. He should criticise the rules for not defining that term. Also, the supernatural ability of having a balor sword is strange (being a supernatural ability it should end in existence when the spell ends, btw, if taken to the letter of what is written).
The biggest rules loop here are wishes granted as supernatural abilites by creatures you turn into. Still, a DM has every right to deny that you even get familiarity with such a creature in his campaign, even if they exist there since he controls the npcs and the results of the knowledge skill.
There may be rules glitches here, but nothing to warrant banning the whole spell chain - rather a correcting of obvious errors is called for in those rare circumstances that it ever comes up (like the infinite fabricate spell item productions).

6) Here, Rich accuses the non-core rules as too easily allowing unbalanced combos for morphing. I agree - optional rules adding can cause awkward results. Best then to leave the optional rules aside and keep the morph stuff as envisioned by the core rules.

7) Rich overstates a bit the effect of polymorph any object. First of all, at these levels, it will be dispelled rather often. Second, the HD forms possible cap at 15. And PAO enters the scene for level 15 players (when the spell becomes available for the pc casters). It will lose glamour soon enough.

8) The disguise stacking stuff is interesting. But at 17th level + worrying about a +30 unnamed bonus to disguise? Not really an issue, I daresay. You can appear to be the enemy BBEG. But speak and act like him? Nope.

9) Similarly, what use is it to cast polymorph first and then alter self? Since your creature type has changed, you cannot actually change back into yourself (anyhow only possible at +10 disguise).

So in total, while Rich's proposed housrules provide interesting ideas and fluff, they are not needed to balance the game (at least not the core 3.5 one).

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Non-core materials are optional, but shoudl you decide to include them, they are ALL now fair game.


No, only the stuff the DM allows. Hence the word "optional" (the DM could also disallow core stuff, but then it's houseruling...)

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

Sure. And in this discussion, I am stipulating that the DM is allowing all the stuff I'm putting on here. So for my games, the situation works like <x>

[Jayabalard]

Which is part of Polymorph's problem, no inherent limit to what you can turn into.That's not really the problem. The problem is that Polymorph is an ability that too complicated to be run simply by the rules no matter how well the rules are written. It's an ability that works when you have a game master who can adjudicate it in a fun and reasonably fair way and players who are willing to use it under those limitations. But for followers of the holy book of RAW, it's going to be broken and abusable (like it is in 3e) unless it's cut (like it is for the moment in 4e), or worthless (like it is in some other games where it gives little to no bang for the buck)

[Jade_Tarem]

No, only the stuff the DM allows. Hence the word "optional" (the DM could also disallow core stuff, but then it's houseruling...)

- Giacomo

"RAW DEBATE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY."

Sorry, dragging the DM into the discussion is taboo, my friend. As is throwing out non-core, and basically anything else that could damage your argument. You have to play with all the toys or none at all.

Let's go over some of this.


But then it's also fascinating to see how posters who normally say that casters are uber promote the banning/overblowing of polymorph. The reason? Simple. Polymorph is a great buffing spell for NON-CASTERS (in particular those non-casters that are powerful without manufactured weapons - you know which class probably...). Only why caster uberness make their continuous (maybe even deliberate?) rules misinterpretations and what it gains them remains a big mystery to me.

A minor discrepancy between one interpretation and another does not make one of them right and the other wrong. Some people are bound to be wrong about polymorph, but saying that all broken aspects of polymorph are fueled by Wizard fanboyism and absinthe makes you, well, wrong about polymorph.


For casters, though, in particular the wizard, it is just stupid to use. Polymorph into an ooze or hydra even and lose all somatic (or all somatic/vocal) spellcasting for the duration of the spell. While having low hp and no combat abilities to speak of. Yeah, that's a great strategy for a caster.

Unless you need a really good disguise or a lot of natural armor or something. How does +20 sound? The baseline polymorph spell tends to be pretty useful outside of combat, even if you can't come up with a monster choice creative enough to use it inside combat.


Funnily also by wizard uberness believers, the 4th level polymorph spell is a big no-no, whereas the no-save spells of the same level (core, even: solid fog and black tentacles) are fine and every arcane caster should have them, meaning "they win". Ah, the irony. And the druid uberness believers do the same stuff with wildshape: the min/lvl dispellable polymorph is broken, but the 24/7 supernatural (=non-dispellable) wildshape is not. Youpidouh...

Um, not all wizard "uberness believers" (which you use with all of the subtlety of a brick in the place of the word "fantards," and which I'm beginning to find slightly offensive) believe this. I almost never use the lower versions of polymorph. As they, plus a lot of the "win" spells, really are broken. *Gasp* That's right! Not everyone who realizes that main casters are broken as hell is a powergaming supermunchkin!


And the number of fallacies many polymorph banners here provide as reasons why they believe the morph stuff is overpowered is simply fascinating.

Ah, here we go...


Highlights I saw so far:
- morph gives higher hp due to CON bonus applied (no, it does not)
- morph gives you back all hp when re-casting it (no, it does not - it gives back hp for a night's rest)

Ah, you're two for two, but only because of errata, and some people take exception even to this.


- you can change via alter self into a ravid and get fly/super AC (no, you cannot, since you cannot change into an outsider, or you lose a level by being one in core, not that great an idea).

Not a ravid, but you can change yourself into a winged humanoid of some sort - many of which have better racial stats than you. As posts have pointed out below, there are Outsider 0 ECL races. Combine this with certain prestige classes and you can have alter self transform you into dragons, elementals, and even constructs!


- getting non-core material makes polymorph broken. (no, it does not, since all non-core material is optional and creatures like mineral dwarf or whatever are EXTREMELY rare to even exist in any given campaign).

Cry some more. You most definitely can use non-core for the purposes of a RAW argument. The fact that it hurts your case does not make it illegal.


- getting +xy natural AC wins. (No, of course not. Get grappled and you'll think twice about the awesomeness of a natural AC bonus. In particular wizards feeling safe with that will get grounded by grapplign attacks)

Ah, the lovely "stupid wizard" strawman argument. You know what else is available at 7th level? Freedom of movement and Dimension Door - and that's just for starters. Monks (since I just know you're thinkin' about monks) feeling safe grappling wizards will get their heads blown off due to those spells, or any number of other things.


- shapechange is broken because you can change into anything. (No, you can't, you can change only into forms you are "familiar" with. That the core rules do not provide a definition for that term means you should apply common sense. And knowing the MM by heart is not that common sense.)

Welcome to int 28 and nothing better to spend skill ranks in than knowledge! I know about lots of cool creatures even without metagaming.


- shapechange is broken because you can turn into a choker and do one more standard action in core (no, it is not. First, see prvs entry. Second, there is a huge debate still going on whether chokers can even cast spells without proper hands to exert the fine movents for somatic components of the spells. In doubt, your DM will not allow it. Ah, and a wizard still has his squishy CON and hp. Just get time stop instead).

There's a feat called surrogate spellcasting (which will let you cast spells as a lantern archon, nevermind a choker) that you can take if your DM makes an issue over the hands, which he shouldn't, and also can't since we are discussing the rules, and not how a DM will change them. Also, your "prvs entry" does not address this.


- you get spell-like abilities with shapechange (or polymorph even). (No, you don't. You never get any spell-like abilities or spell knowledge with any morph stuff).

Ah, you are now 3/7. Most people don't claim this, though, and shapechange doesn't need this to be broken.


But the best fallacy, and something which I also overlooked so far is:
- hydra gives its mutliple-head-attack plus move (btw not as a standard action!) as an ability to polymorph users.
No, guys, it does not, by the RAW.
Polymorph is based on the Alter Self spell, and this says crystal clearly:
"A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."
Note also that the alter self spell does not provide you with any specialties explicities that could include a multi-head attack with a standard action.
And, the polymorph spell description only mentions extraordinary attacks as granted by the spell ontop of alter self (apart from the STR, DEX score and healing, as well as more forms to choose from) - but the hydra ability to move/charge and full attack with its heads is NOT an extraordinary ability. This non-categorisation may be an oversight by the rules, but it avoids nicely any abuse (in case anyone still doubts the clear alter safe statement.)
And even so, who would wish just have a move of 20ft at those levels? And get -8 to hide checks for size to rogues is just horrid.

Aha! 4/7, ambiguously. F+ to you so far.


Also, commenting on Rich Burlew's article on polymorph:

I'm sorry, but I can't quite get over the fact that you're about to try to put the smack down on Rich Burlew when you continue to insist that monks are every bit as powerful and dangerous as the full casters.


1) This point criticises all-knowing players, although their characters should not even know by what happened in the camaign and what even the knowledge skill does what a choker is. That is entirely up to the DM. In essence, imo Rich does not attack the morph stuff per se, but what people make of it (DM's too lenient, players too greedy, both misinterpreting the rules).

We've covered this. Lenient DMs and Greedy Players are not an excuse for a poorly written rule. Misinterpretation is, but other than a couple of odd cases that you pointed out up above (4 of 7, and they were pretty darn specific and borderline) - it just doesn't add up.


2) Here Rich does not address rules imbalances, but rather fluff. Actually, he proposes providing Special qualities once you assume the form of the creature. This would add to the power of morph, not limit it as the spells do in the RAW.

Yes... Wait, no. Burlew took pains to remove the truly egregious aspects of polymorph. His division of polymorph, shapechange, alter self, and polymorph any object into two to three times as many spells cuts down on wizard versatility unless the wizard wants to sacrifice twice as many spell slots to have most of the same options that he did before - and they still won't be quite so good. Also note that under his system you can't cast PAO as a buff on the party tank and let him go to town anymore. This is a big step in the right direction.


3) Here, Rich overlooks that CON is still an issue (only STR and DEX change with morph+). And, he in particular attacks wildshape Morph, lasting only min/level would leave a fighter betting on morph very weak indeed for most of the day.

I would like to note that this article was written before the errata, I think. PAO lasts for quite a long time, if you do it right, which means a fighter "relying" on it could do so if he wanted to, and not be weak for very long stretches of time.


4) What potential abuse is there for getting the creature type of the creature you shape into? For every advantage, there may be a disadvantage looming. For instance, you could change into an animal and become the subject of an animal growth spell. However, you then also become susceptible to the low-level hide from animals spell.

Construct, with the mental acumen of a wizard? I'm not that worried about rust spells, and now I've picked up every good construct trait I can think of. Undead or Deathless is the same kind of thing. The list goes on... Mostly it's the fact that in addition to alot of this, you're still a wizard. So you're "like a PC, but better."


5) Here, the supernatural ability part of shapechange is addressed. Unfortunately, Rich overlooks the "familiar" part of the shapechange spell. He should criticise the rules for not defining that term. Also, the supernatural ability of having a balor sword is strange (being a supernatural ability it should end in existence when the spell ends, btw, if taken to the letter of what is written).

I don't think he overlooked it so much as didn't want to arbitrarily set down a limit which could seem silly later.

And what would the "limit" be? I'm sure your proposed definition of "familiar" is "familiar in the biblical sense." Most people would call it a knowledge check, though - which defeats the point.


The biggest rules loop here are wishes granted as supernatural abilites by creatures you turn into. Still, a DM has every right to deny that you even get familiarity with such a creature in his campaign, even if they exist there since he controls the npcs and the results of the knowledge skill.
There may be rules glitches here, but nothing to warrant banning the whole spell chain - rather a correcting of obvious errors is called for in those rare circumstances that it ever comes up (like the infinite fabricate spell item productions).

And yet... and yet DM fixes do not matter. You're falling into the whatchamacallit fallacy, where you claim the rule isn't broken because the DM can fix it. You can't do that.


6) Here, Rich accuses the non-core rules as too easily allowing unbalanced combos for morphing. I agree - optional rules adding can cause awkward results. Best then to leave the optional rules aside and keep the morph stuff as envisioned by the core rules.

Um, sorry to hear that? You still gotta deal with those dirty and oh-so-inconvenient little non-core options.


7) Rich overstates a bit the effect of polymorph any object. First of all, at these levels, it will be dispelled rather often. Second, the HD forms possible cap at 15. And PAO enters the scene for level 15 players (when the spell becomes available for the pc casters). It will lose glamour soon enough.

There are enough ways to crank CL that you can make it hard to dispell. The rest of it is a matter of taste.


8) The disguise stacking stuff is interesting. But at 17th level + worrying about a +30 unnamed bonus to disguise? Not really an issue, I daresay. You can appear to be the enemy BBEG. But speak and act like him? Nope.

Who says you have to be level 17? At level eleven a bard can enter the Sublime Chord prestige class, having spent the previous ten levels Min-maxxing bluff and perform. He can then cast polymorph and alter self, and gains the +20 bonus to disguise. Now he has well over +30 in bluff, disguise, perform, and probably diplomacy. At that point, he can probably look and act more like the BBEG than the BBEG.

At level seven polymorph and alter self can cough up a +20 bonus for the wizard, if he needs to slip away (and can't fly away, for some reason).


9) Similarly, what use is it to cast polymorph first and then alter self? Since your creature type has changed, you cannot actually change back into yourself (anyhow only possible at +10 disguise).

So in total, while Rich's proposed housrules provide interesting ideas and fluff, they are not needed to balance the game (at least not the core 3.5 one).

I kind of think they are. Whether or not the stuff actually is balanced will need to be determined, but I suggest you try again on many of the points that you felt you could skip because they were sorta inconvenient.

Oh, and if you use alter self's ability, and then polymorph, you can change back into yourself anyway. You have to think in more than one direction with wizards, sometimes.

[Rashmi]

Only why caster uberness make their continuous (maybe even deliberate?) rules misinterpretations and what it gains them remains a big mystery to me.

Maybe you should realize that people are individuals, and just because some people have jumped into the Polymorph thread with mistakes, (those people who never really talk about Caster super powers) and where then corrected by those actual rules experts who recognize that casters are superior) does not mean that everyone who ever disagrees with you is mistaken (no matter how many times you say it, and no matter how many times you call us idiots in your horrible approximation of English.)


Funnily also by wizard uberness believers, the 4th level polymorph spell is a big no-no, whereas the no-save spells of the same level (core, even: solid fog and black tentacles) are fine and every arcane caster should have them, meaning "they win".

Yes, odd how people point to a single spell that they believe is overpowered due to it's versatility, scope, and power, and don't then ban every single spell of that level. Weird huh?


And the druid uberness believers do the same stuff with wildshape: the min/lvl dispellable polymorph is broken, but the 24/7 supernatural (=non-dispellable) wildshape is not.

Yes, weird how shape limited Wildshape which is limited to Animals and therefore misses out on most all awesome features (IE most good poisons, immunities, the best movement forms, the ability to keep all your items working and use weapons) is viewed as less broken then Polymorph. (If you knew anything at all about non-core optimization, which of course you don't, you'd know that for Druids it is all about gaining access to alternate forms for wildshape).


- morph gives higher hp due to CON bonus applied (no, it does not)
- morph gives you back all hp when re-casting it (no, it does not - it gives back hp for a night's rest)

Great, find the most ignorant posts you can made by anyone at all, and regardless of whether they actually think it is broken or not, just claim that all your opponents believe those things. Very very good job. Did you by any chance graduate from Liberty? (I'm kidding of course, the Liberty debate team doesn't actually use such pathetic fallacies.)


- you can change via alter self into a ravid and get fly/super AC (no, you cannot, since you cannot change into an outsider, or you lose a level by being one in core, not that great an idea).

Yes you can. Welcome to the world of D&D, where we actually don't arbitrarily declare that 90% of the game doesn't exist.

+0 LA outsider races include Star Elfs, anyone who takes a feat, and a few other ways besides.


- getting non-core material makes polymorph broken. (no, it does not, since all non-core material is optional and creatures like mineral dwarf or whatever are EXTREMELY rare to even exist in any given campaign).

And yet no matter how rare something is, once you can make the appropriate knowledge check, you can become it. And in fact, all of these things exist in 90% of the games of D&D actually played.


- getting +xy natural AC wins. (No, of course not. Get grappled and you'll think twice about the awesomeness of a natural AC bonus. In particular wizards feeling safe with that will get grounded by grapplign attacks)

I'm sorry, this character cannot be grappled right now, please try again later.

Let me explain this to you very simply: Grappling is very easy to thwart in about a billion ways, and so anyone who would be hurt by it arranges to have one of those available. Get down off the grapple horse.


- shapechange is broken because you can change into anything. (No, you can't, you can change only into forms you are "familiar" with. That the core rules do not provide a definition for that term means you should apply common sense. And knowing the MM by heart is not that common sense.)

Actually it does define familiar: anything you have ever seen or heard about. guess what things you might have heard about? Oh, right. Everything you can make the most basic knowledge check for, which for a level 17 Wizard is everything under 30HD. Which means you automatically know know everything you can change into.


- shapechange is broken because you can turn into a choker and do one more standard action in core (no, it is not. First, see prvs entry. Second, there is a huge debate still going on whether chokers can even cast spells without proper hands to exert the fine movents for somatic components of the spells. In doubt, your DM will not allow it. Ah, and a wizard still has his squishy CON and hp. Just get time stop instead).

This has so many things wrong it's hard to even know where to start:
1) There is no such debate. You fail. Chokers have the same hands as Sanguain, who can cast spells no problem.
2) If there is some ambiguity, that doesn't mean the DM won't allow it, that means you won't allow it if it benefits casters but will if it benefits monks (I don't know if Chokers can cast spells, but I'm absolutely sure that Monks can flurry in a grapple even though most people disagree with me.)
3) No one cares if he has a squishy Con, he's casting spells.


- you get spell-like abilities with shapechange (or polymorph even). (No, you don't. You never get any spell-like abilities or spell knowledge with any morph stuff).

And with the strategy of claiming that what one person said everyone thinks again.

But I did keep this one separate because actually, Planar Shepard gets all SLA's of it's forms.


But the best fallacy, and something which I also overlooked so far is:
- hydra gives its mutliple-head-attack plus move (btw not as a standard action!) as an ability to polymorph users.
No, guys, it does not, by the RAW.
Polymorph is based on the Alter Self spell, and this says crystal clearly:
"A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."
Note also that the alter self spell does not provide you with any specialties explicities that could include a multi-head attack with a standard action.
And, the polymorph spell description only mentions extraordinary attacks as granted by the spell ontop of alter self (apart from the STR, DEX score and healing, as well as more forms to choose from) - but the hydra ability to move/charge and full attack with its heads is NOT an extraordinary ability. This non-categorisation may be an oversight by the rules, but it avoids nicely any abuse (in case anyone still doubts the clear alter safe statement.)
And even so, who would wish just have a move of 20ft at those levels? And get -8 to hide checks for size to rogues is just horrid.

1) Heads aren't limbs. Look it up. Neither are mouths.
2) Of course it's not an Ex ability, it's just an ability inherent to the form, which means you actually would get it from Alter Self if there was a Hydra of low enough HD and your type.
3) Smart people don't care about hide checks because they know that Hide checks aren't going to make them undetectable because they need conealment. Smart people just use Greater Invisibility or Blinking.

[Starbuck_II]

And the number of fallacies many polymorph banners here provide as reasons why they believe the morph stuff is overpowered is simply fascinating.

A fallacy is not a fallacy if it is correct.



Highlights I saw so far:
- morph gives higher hp due to CON bonus applied (no, it does not)

False. You are 100% wrong here.
That was why they had to errata Wildshape because Polymorph does! When was last time you read it?

Do note: Wildshape errara turned it into Alternate Form. Polymorph was never errated.


- you get spell-like abilities with shapechange (or polymorph even). (No, you don't. You never get any spell-like abilities or spell knowledge with any morph stuff).
etc.

Cloaker give Hold Person at will. Sure, it isn't a true spell-like ability (Extraodrinary special attack), but these exist in a certain form.

[Stupendous_Man]

giacomo its like you have thsi grappling fetish

your always saying 'solve this problem by grappling'

[John Campbell]

Highlights I saw so far:
- morph gives higher hp due to CON bonus applied (no, it does not)


False. You are 100% wrong here.

Polymorph inherits behaviour from alter self, except where it's specifically overridden. Alter self says your hit points don't change. Polymorph doesn't override that, except to say that you heal a small number of HP, as if you'd rested for a night.


Cloaker give Hold Person at will. Sure, it isn't a true spell-like ability (Extraodrinary special attack), but these exist in a certain form.
No, it doesn't. It gives you something very like Improved Grapple, which is nowhere near as good as hold person at will.

[Jade_Tarem]

If you're turning into a choker for anything but the two standard actions per round, you're doing it wrong anyway.

[Sir Giacomo]

If you're turning into a choker for anything but the two standard actions per round, you're doing it wrong anyway.

Yep, correct.

- Giacomo

[Starbuck_II]

No, it doesn't. It gives you something very like Improved Grapple, which is nowhere near as good as hold person at will.

Fine I'll have to post the entry.

Moan (Ex)
A cloaker can emit a dangerous subsonic moan as a standard action. By changing the frequency, the cloaker can cause one of four effects. Cloakers are immune to these sonic, mind-affecting attacks. Unless otherwise specified, a creature that successfully saves against one of these effects cannot be affected by the same moan effect from the same cloaker for 24 hours. All save DCs for moan effects are Charisma-based.


Stupor
Fortitude save or be affected as though by a hold monster spell for 5 rounds. Even after a successful save, the creature must repeat the save if the
A single creature within 30 feet of the cloaker must succeed on a DC 15 cloaker uses this effect again.


Hold Monster/Hold person same idea. Sorry, you lost this argument. It is plain as day.

Engulf isn't that good. Why would you even bring that up?
I found this useage since I first used Polymorph.

[ericgrau]

I'm gonna only half disagree on some stuff mentioned about Rich's polymorph fix. Rich might not be fixing the rules as written (or maybe he is), but he is fixing them as they tend to be played. If I ban polymorph I won't be using his suggestions in its place, I don't think, but that's mainly because I see them as too complicated as well (though perhaps less complicated than the old rules, who knows).

In the end, I think I would ban polymorph unless a player asks for it, does all the book-keeping himself and we sort things out ahead of time. I'd also put restrictions on gear, casting & maybe buffs.

That's just how I'd do it, anyway. Based on the number crunching I did in previous posts it seems that a polymorphed caster is weaker than a non-caster and a polymorphed non-caster is weaker than a simple damage dealing caster. But tack on buffs & etc., and the polymorphed players begin to meet or maybe even exceed the standards mentioned. My main gripe is really the complication. But a person who played a polymorphing wizard before posted a nice way around in this thread. So that's why I came to the conclusion that I did. YRMV.