Elan

[Duema]

I've always been wondering: How is Elan so clueless? Is he really like that, or is there some horrible event (like the death of his mother) that made him this way?

Any speculations?

[Renegade Paladin]

However he got that way, the fact remains that he has absolutely no business adventuring, any more than a ten year old child would, because that's the mentality he has. He's immature to the point that he doesn't even comprehend the risks involved, much less have the capacity to make an informed decision about whether or not to take them.

[Duema]

Yeah, i see your point, but he sometimes has a use, like bard songs, encouraging Haley, and now the whole dashing swordsman thing has helped a bit.

[d'Bwobsling]

Nale hitting him over the head so much when he was little (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

[Mojique]

Any speculations?
It's because Rich Burlew created him so. :smallbiggrin:

Elan is a random generator, always able to endanger his friends. So Rich Burlew can use him for surprising turnarounds.

[NerfTW]

However he got that way, the fact remains that he has absolutely no business adventuring, any more than a ten year old child would, because that's the mentality he has. He's immature to the point that he doesn't even comprehend the risks involved, much less have the capacity to make an informed decision about whether or not to take them.

That's way too harsh. He definitely has some maturity. He's sexually active and quite good at seducing women. His problem is simply that he's naive and optimistic to a fault. Clearly he has some combat ability, since he held off Nale in thier first meeting, and understands danger. He's simply easily confused when the plot goes in a direction not covered by his bardic training.

[AceOfFools]

That's way too harsh. He definitely has some maturity. He's sexually active and quite good at seducing women. His problem is simply that he's naive and optimistic to a fault. Clearly he has some combat ability, since he held off Nale in thier first meeting, and understands danger. He's simply easily confused when the plot goes in a direction not covered by his bardic training.

Oddly enough, I think that means he's worse off in OotS then he would be in a number of other heroic DnD campaigns.

[krossbow]

or is there some horrible event (like the death of his mother)



I'm pretty sure that Elan's mother is alive, given the constant current tense references to her.

Gotta love the one about her magazines.

[Kool-Aid]

He has high charisma, low intelligence, and I'm guessing a less than average wisdom score. You have to keep in mind that this IS still a d&d universe. In a real world perspective, have you ever seen Jessica Simpson? Most people would say she's fairly attractive.....yet she thinks that the majestic flying buffallo roam the land in search of green pastures. Some people are just dumb.

[David Argall]

He's sexually active and quite good at seducing women.
Actually, we have no evidence of that, and can be said to have evidence he is not. Most of the women we have seen in the strip want to seduce him. His actual ability to persuade women may be quite limited.

[Tyrmatt]

The fact that Elan states that it's his "job" to seduce women in the Bandit Camp suggests he is more than aware of his own sex-appeal. He's just one of those annoying optimist folks :)

[Tempest Fennac]

I assumed he had -2 modifiers to Int and Wis (he probably has less Wis, though). Nale appears to have some Int (it probably isn't more then a +2 mod at the most, though), but he also seems to have a lack of common sense.

[NerfTW]

Actually, we have no evidence of that, and can be said to have evidence he is not. Most of the women we have seen in the strip want to seduce him. His actual ability to persuade women may be quite limited.

It was directly stated in the commentary in Paladin Blues, in regards to the bandit storyline.

In particular, I wanted to dispel the myth that Elan is asexual because he is so childlike. Quite the opposite; Elan probably has a great deal of experience with women. He's attractive and fun to be around, so no doubt many women have shown interest in him. What he lacks is the understanding of love and meaningful relationships, as well as the ability to understand that Haley- who is "one of the guys" to Elan- might be in love with him.

[NENAD]

And even in the comics the only thing we lack is proof that he's sexually inactive. He's certainly got some evidence going for him from the bandit plotline, and even, arguably, from the level of confidence he expresses with his beautifully romantic line "Wanna make out?"

[David Argall]

The fact that Elan states that it's his "job" to seduce women in the Bandit Camp suggests he is more than aware of his own sex-appeal. He's just one of those annoying optimist folks :)
Sex-appeal he obviously has in spades. The ability to seduce is another story. For the most part his approach seems to be "If you want to, who am I to refuse you?".



It was directly stated in the commentary in Paladin Blues, in regards to the bandit storyline.

Quote:
"In particular, I wanted to dispel the myth that Elan is asexual because he is so childlike. Quite the opposite; Elan probably has a great deal of experience with women. He's attractive and fun to be around, so no doubt many women have shown interest in him. What he lacks is the understanding of love and meaningful relationships, as well as the ability to understand that Haley- who is "one of the guys" to Elan- might be in love with him."
Which does not speak to the point at issue. Women approach Elan. He doesn't approach them. He takes what is offered, not persuades them to give. Even Haley has to tell him she wants him. His "seduction" thereafter is pretty much just ignoring her babbling. We have no cases where his success wasn't a foregone conclusion. [/quote]

Now Elan is going to be above average in seduction due to high charisma, but there is no sign he has put any ranks in Profession: Rake.
[I suppose a generous DM might allow him to use other skills. Would that fall under diplomacy or bluff?]

[kpenguin]

[I suppose a generous DM might allow him to use other skills. Would that fall under diplomacy or bluff?]

According to WotC, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) Seduction is a bluff check.

(Scroll down to Swashbuckler)

[NerfTW]

He knew what he was doing in the bandit camp. He said so himself.

We know he's active.

We know women have a tendency to jump his bones.

We know that he knows what sex is and enjoys it.

He willingly goes back into the tent to seduce the bandit queen.

There is no way you can take all those facts and still say that Elan doesn't KNOW how to seduce women. He just doesn't have to put much effort into it. His ignorance of Haley was because, as stated in the quote, she was just one of the guys, a situation that has no small amount of paralells in the real world.

[Kurald Galain]

Which does not speak to the point at issue. Women approach Elan. He doesn't approach them.

Except when he sneaks out of captivity to get flowers and candy for them...

[krossbow]

As we know from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html) comic, the only thing that elan actually has to do to seduce a woman is run around naked in front of them.

[Renegade Paladin]

That's way too harsh. He definitely has some maturity. He's sexually active and quite good at seducing women. His problem is simply that he's naive and optimistic to a fault. Clearly he has some combat ability, since he held off Nale in thier first meeting, and understands danger. He's simply easily confused when the plot goes in a direction not covered by his bardic training.
Okay, point. Allow me to revise: He has the mentality of a thirteen year old child, since that should be enough to put him past puberty. Still not mature, and certainly not enough to make an informed decision about engaging in a career arguably more risky than military service. His first reaction to seeing a strange ninja running around, when he knows that ninjas have been attempting to assassinate Hinjo, is to assume she's a superhero; his second reaction is to refuse to reconsider his first reaction when the aforementioned fact concerning ninjas and Hinjo is pointed out to him. This is supposed to be a mature, thinking adult?

[David Argall]

He willingly goes back into the tent to seduce the bandit queen.
He goes back after he hears the guards say seduction was not going to be difficult, if necessary at all, and Samantha is quite upset with the suggestion there was any seduction to it.



There is no way you can take all those facts and still say that Elan doesn't KNOW how to seduce women.
Sure can. As I said before, we have not seen him manage to bed a woman who wasn't eager to bed him before he tried anything.



According to WotC, Seduction is a bluff check.

That is seduction to learn something, which may not be that different, but it does assume a dishonest effort. So an honest offer of a fun evening might fit under diplomacy.

[Ironwolf172]

He has high charisma, low intelligence, and I'm guessing a less than average wisdom score. You have to keep in mind that this IS still a d&d universe. In a real world perspective, have you ever seen Jessica Simpson? Most people would say she's fairly attractive.....yet she thinks that the majestic flying buffallo roam the land in search of green pastures. Some people are just dumb.

Exactly! Read the begining of the PH (and pretty much the entire DMG) it shows how a charecter should act with their respective scores. He is simply roleplaying well.

[NerfTW]

He goes back after he hears the guards say seduction was not going to be difficult, if necessary at all, and Samantha is quite upset with the suggestion there was any seduction to it.


Sure can. As I said before, we have not seen him manage to bed a woman who wasn't eager to bed him before he tried anything.



So by your rationale, I don't really know how to drive a car because the power steering and brakes don't require me to expend much effort in turning and stopping?

He went back because he heard that the bandit leader was a she as opposed to a he.

[Renegade Paladin]

So by your rationale, I don't really know how to drive a car because the power steering and brakes don't require me to expend much effort in turning and stopping?

He went back because he heard that the bandit leader was a she as opposed to a he.
Again, mentality of a barely pubescent child. "But if there are any girls there, I want to do them!" He didn't consider the risk, the danger he was putting the rest of the Order in by making them come in after him instead of escaping, or even the fact that he had been kidnapped. He obviously has no ability to assess risk and even no sense of what is and is not dangerous to begin with.

[SoC175]

Okay, point. Allow me to revise: He has the mentality of a thirteen year old child, since that should be enough to put him past puberty. Still not mature, and certainly not enough to make an informed decision about engaging in a career arguably more risky than military service. His first reaction to seeing a strange ninja running around, when he knows that ninjas have been attempting to assassinate Hinjo, is to assume she's a superhero; his second reaction is to refuse to reconsider his first reaction when the aforementioned fact concerning ninjas and Hinjo is pointed out to him. This is supposed to be a mature, thinking adult?
To be fair: The moment he first saw this particular ninja she was basically instandly fighting on his side

[Admiral_Kelly]

Elan is not supposed to be a mature thinking adult. That is where most of his humor lies. Admittedly, I do find some of Elan's humor cringing (Banjo. I absolutely hate Banjo. That is new low for stupidity.) but overall he is a humorous character.

[David Argall]

So by your rationale, I don't really know how to drive a car because the power steering and brakes don't require me to expend much effort in turning and stopping?
If you are then put in a car without power steering and brakes, that would possibly be the case. If we say you have used an automatic all your life, and are then put in a stick, you might be hard put to get the car to move.

Seduce: "lure or entice away from duty, principles, or proper conduct; "She was seduced by the temptation of easy money and started to work in a massage parlor" "

We simply have no case where Elan has seduced a woman. The women try to seduce him.


He went back because he heard that the bandit leader was a she as opposed to a he.
He heard she was a hot she who was wasn't going to be putting up any resistance.

[holywhippet]

He's immature to the point that he doesn't even comprehend the risks involved, much less have the capacity to make an informed decision about whether or not to take them.

True as shown early on: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html



He has high charisma, low intelligence, and I'm guessing a less than average wisdom score. You have to keep in mind that this IS still a d&d universe.

I've always figured Elan has high charisma, medium intelligence and really low wisdom. If you check the strips he understands how to do certain things, but never considers the long term (or even short term) consequences of them. For example, he knew that bards are expected to seduce females, but didn't consider that sleeping with the bandit leader would upset his comrades. When it came to ride horses he knew how to do it and how to instruct the others. In the prequel book he instructed Roy on how to go about recruiting adventurers. Elan knew how to play on Thog's weaker intellect to devise an prison escape plan.

[Child Conscript]

No cure for Paladin Blues, page 150c.
panel 5

[Ferrous]

I've always been wondering: How is Elan so clueless? Is he really like that, or is there some horrible event (like the death of his mother) that made him this way?

Any speculations?

Some day you'll meet someone like Elan, and then you'll understand.

I've met someone just as clueless. Yes, they do exist.

[Duema]

Ok guys, I left this thread for 2 days and I started to read and got really annoyed. All this stuff about sex was kind of off the point. I want to know if any of you think that Elan has experienced something traumatic in his past that has made him act this way, like experiencing a death, or being tortured or something else. Please stay on topic.

Also, I understand how the sex thing could be on topic, but it isn't the essence of what I wanted this conversation to be.

[krossbow]

I want to know if any of you think that Elan has experienced something traumatic in his past that has made him act this way, like experiencing a death, or being tortured or something else.


Being brain damaged as a infant by your brother doesn't count as "traumatic"? :smallamused:




On that note:


Charisma: When its high enough, you don't NEED to seduce people.

[Chavik]

maybe it's the Giants wayof getin us to thinkabut te effects of divorce on a child... Elan and Nale's parents did split up at an early age,but he may have some memories of it or of him.

or:

It is never stated his mother dies, and she is referred too in a preset tense. But Elan's father is never mentioned, and I don't know of anywheres it says he's dead, but what if it was his death and the fact that Elan never got to meet him in his life that led to his"quirks"

or:

Elan may be handicapped... you never know what damage "hitting a soft underdeveloped by skull" may do

[NerfTW]

He heard she was a hot she who was wasn't going to be putting up any resistance.

Well, we can argue this point all week.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html

They state she's female and promiscuous at the same time, so unless Rich himself tells us, you can argue either one of those changed his mind.