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quiet1mi
2008-07-26, 01:04 PM
I was reading in my book of exalted deeds and noticed the vows (sacred vow,vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, and vow of peace) when combined gives a total of +16 all at 2nd level (with a human) 3rd with anyone else
(+2 Armor bonus,+2 natural armor,+2 deflection, an additional +2 to armor bonus,natural armor,deflection from vow of poverty and vow of peace, a +4 exalted bonus to armor class from vow of poverty)

is there any way to combat this high ac without kill everyone else or banning the Book of Exalted deeds (that is my last resort)...

Another thing that came to mind is whether or no I am doing the AC stacking correctly?

Do I need to worry about the high AC (is it balanced with the low damage output and restrictions on lethal combat)?

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 01:17 PM
A better question would be: why are you trying to kill someone who has the vows of poverty, non-violence and peace?

Spiryt
2008-07-26, 01:20 PM
A better question would be: why are you trying to kill someone who has the vows of poverty, non-violence and peace?

Did you think about a history of a place called Earth before writing this?

Anyway +16 to AC? You mean 26 total?

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 01:28 PM
Did you think about a history of a place called Earth before writing this?


No, mostly because it's irrelevant, this isn't some flavour discussion, this is a mechanical D&D discussion and if one of your party members takes all these feats with their restrictions, I wouldn't worry.

p.s. I doubt it is really possible to get +16, I give it +10 at most at level 2.

Edit: That and you can't get 4 feats at level two, you only get 2, except if you are a fighter or psywar, but I doubt the vows are fighter bonus feats.

Spiryt
2008-07-26, 01:34 PM
No, mostly because it's irrelevant, this isn't some flavour discussion, this is a mechanical D&D discussion and if one of your party members takes all these feats with their restrictions, I wouldn't worry.


I wa just pointing that people that don't defend themselves or don't do it too well are always fauvorite targets.

And on the topic.

Even 26 AC at 1rst level isn't really that high. It's strong at first levels, but quickly get's irrelevant.

Bayar
2008-07-26, 01:36 PM
I was reading in my book of exalted deeds and noticed the vows (sacred vow,vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, and vow of peace) when combined gives a total of +16 all at 2nd level (with a human) 3rd with anyone else

*snip*

Thank you captain obvious :smallbiggrin:

This is precisely why BoED and BoVD are usually banned in most games. Because they are not balanced. And most of them are traps anyway.

Seriously, Vow of powerty. It is good for extremely low levels. At higher levels you WILL need magic items to be effective. What happens when you get an expensive item ? Vow is broken and you lose ALL exalted feats.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 01:40 PM
Even 26 AC at 1rst level isn't really that high. It's strong at first levels, but quickly get's irrelevant.

I guess you're right, otherwise people would be complaining about dex 12, fullplate wearing, towershield wielding fighters(23 AC) a lot more.

Spiryt
2008-07-26, 01:47 PM
I guess you're right, otherwise people would be complaining about dex 12, fullplate wearing, towershield wielding fighters(23 AC) a lot more.

Well, towershielding gives you minuses to hit, giantic skill penalties, and sword and board is unfortunately very weak in 3.5 anyway.

I don't have BoED BoVD so I don't know what are minuses of them

BRC
2008-07-26, 01:49 PM
Of course, such a character would be unable to do anything in combat except run around healing and buffing, or drag corpses to the nearest temple for ressurection.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 01:57 PM
Well, towershielding gives you minuses to hit, giantic skill penalties, and sword and board is unfortunately very weak in 3.5 anyway.

I don't have BoED BoVD so I don't know what are minuses of them
I don't have it either, but I've read it and trust me, you want the penalty to hit and skill penalties if you have the choice.

RTGoodman
2008-07-26, 02:07 PM
Alright, let's look at this. For a human, you get:

1: Sacred Vow
H: Vow of Poverty
2(B): Vow of Non-Violence (bonus Exalted feat from VoP)
3: Vow of Peace

Level 3 is the earliest you can pick up those 4 feats. If you're non-human, you have to wait to get Sacred Vow at 1st, VoP at 3rd, VoN-V at 4th (as a bonus Exalted feat), and then VoPeace at 6th.

A 3rd-level human has the following bonuses to AC with the Exalted feats.


+7 exalted bonus (+5 from VoP, +2 increase from VoPeace)
+2 natural bonus (VoPeace)
+2 deflection (VoPeace)

That's +11 before Dex or other modifiers. Pretty good, especially since weapons that hit you have a chance of breaking and whatnot, but in combat you can NEVER do any sort of damage without losing most of your feats. (I think undead are an exception, though.) A 3rd level Kobold, though, could conceivably have full-plate, a heavy shield, and maybe even a ring of protection +1 (depending on how he spent his money), giving +8 armor, +2 shield, +1 natural, and maybe +1 deflection, giving him a +11 or even +12 at 3rd level.

For the Vow guy, at 20th level you've got:


+12 exalted (+10 VoP, +2 increase from VoPeace)
+5 deflection (+3 VoP, +2 increase from VoPeace)
+4 natural (+2 VoP, +2 increase from VoPeace)

That's +21 before you include your Dex or other modifiers.

Without those feats, though, you can get +5 fullplate with a load of abilities (fortification, resistance, whatever) for +13, a +5 heavy shield (another +7), a nice ring of protection (+1 to +5), an amulet of natural armor (+1 to +5), and all sorts of other little trinkets (Ioun stones, custom items with sacred/luck AC bonuses, monk's belt, etc.). That's a minimum of +22 or so, and probably much higher depending on how much you're going to pump into just increasing your AC.

The Vows aren't going to make you super-powered - you'll be pretty defensive, but that's because you CAN'T really be all that offensively-focused.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-26, 02:48 PM
@^
Your forgetting flaws.

And if you really want a higher AC grab the saint template as well. With that and monk you get Wisdom-10 to AC (not Wisdom Bonus). You can easily end up with another +20 to AC from that at level 20 (18 base, 2 from race, 5 from levels, 5 from wishes provided by other party members).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-26, 04:24 PM
Everyone always forgets, humans get an exalted feat at first level if they go VoP. So, yes, you can have all 4 at second. Make a saint Monk/Cloistered Cleric for insane AC at low levels, and still suck like no other has before. Yes, you get Wis mod*2 to AC and are SAD, but breathing hard loses you all your abilities. Sorry, I'll take a suit of full-plate any day.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 04:41 PM
Everyone always forgets, humans get an exalted feat at first level if they go VoP. So, yes, you can have all 4 at second. Make a saint Monk/Cloistered Cleric for insane AC at low levels, and still suck like no other has before. Yes, you get Wis mod*2 to AC and are SAD, but breathing hard loses you all your abilities. Sorry, I'll take a suit of full-plate any day.

So VoP give you an exalted bonus feat at both first and second level?

Philistine
2008-07-26, 04:57 PM
So VoP give you an exalted bonus feat at both first and second level?

That is correct. And every 2 levels after that, too.


At 1st level, an ascetic gains a bonus exalted feat, and another bonus feat at 2nd level and every two levels thereafter.

Faithless
2008-07-26, 04:58 PM
I'm pretty sure it's first and second. But I'll check.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-26, 04:59 PM
Bonus Exalted Feats: At 1st level, an ascetic gets a bonus exalted feat, and another bonus feat at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter. Unlike the other benefits of a vow of poverty, a character does not gain these bonus feats retroactively when he takes the Vow of Poverty feat; he only gains those bonus feats that apply for the levels he gains after swearing his vow. Thus, the bonus feat gained at 1st level is available only to humans who take both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at 1st level.Boo-ya. Words

quiet1mi
2008-07-26, 07:24 PM
I guess a better question is how can I threaten (not kill) a player with a high AC without dominating all the other players?

my thoughts for the monsters to...

grapple
flanking
aid another
feinting
entanglement
ignoring the elusive enemy in favor for less elusive enemies

is there anything else am I missing?

tyckspoon
2008-07-26, 10:14 PM
is there anything else am I missing?

Use spells/spell-likes/special abilities that target something other than AC. Reflex is usually pretty weak for people who go the heavy-armor route ( typically lowish Dex, often using classes with bad progressions) and Will is an infamous weak point for Fighters and similar people, who usually have even less reason to invest in Wisdom than they do in Dex.

Renegade Paladin
2008-07-26, 11:38 PM
Well, towershielding gives you minuses to hit, giantic skill penalties, and sword and board is unfortunately very weak in 3.5 anyway.

I don't have BoED BoVD so I don't know what are minuses of them
The minuses of vow of nonviolence and vow of peace? You can't cause harm to any living being. Ever. Sure, your AC is crazy, but the character is nonviable as an adventurer.

Patashu
2008-07-26, 11:53 PM
The minuses of vow of nonviolence and vow of peace? You can't cause harm to any living being. Ever. Sure, your AC is crazy, but the character is nonviable as an adventurer.

Except as the party meatshield, of course.

Tokiko Mima
2008-07-27, 12:00 AM
A better question would be: why are you trying to kill someone who has the vows of poverty, non-violence and peace?

Exactly! They're already pretty much dead inside. :smalltongue:

SadisticFishing
2008-07-27, 12:08 AM
Depends. A Vow built Beguiler or Sorcerer?

Not like everyone HAS to hurt other people.

Vexxation
2008-07-27, 12:23 AM
Uh... they don't have to not hurt people. The just can't deal lethal damage.

I made a theoretical Soulknife VoP/Peace/Nonviolence who would have specialized in walking around "unarmed," then if fighting was needed, draw his Mind Blades and deal enough nonlethal damage to subdue. No Vows broken so long as not lethal damage is done.

RTGoodman
2008-07-27, 01:25 AM
Uh... they don't have to not hurt people. The just can't deal lethal damage.

The problem is that not only can't you hurt any living creature, it's that you can't hit them with "real" damage (except non-lethal), ability damage, death effects or disintegrate, pain effects, anything that has "immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm," or "any non-damaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them." Basically, all you can do is take enemies prisoner and kill undead and constructs.


Also, now that I think about it, Warforged are Constructs, right? I guess by RAW that means you can kill them all you want Vow of Peace-type fellow even though they're completely sentient beings! :smalltongue:


@^
Your forgetting flaws.

Yeah, I usually try to. :smallwink:

quiet1mi
2008-07-27, 01:28 AM
which leads unto the monk who has an Ac of 30 by level 2 and has a 45% to 55% chance of his opponents weapons shattering on impact,dealing no damage

not to mention +4 dc to stunning fist and no real penalty because he can just deal nonlethal damage with his fist or go the grapple,trip,disarm route...

i got the ac of 30 from....

+2 from Dex
+2 from wisdom
+4 ac bonus from vow of poverty
+2 ac bonus from vow of peace
another +2 ac bonus from vow of peace (if you have vow of poverty)
+2 natural armor from vow of peace
another +2 natural armor from vow of peace (if you have vow of poverty)
+2 deflection from vow of peace
another +2 deflection from vow of peace(if you have Vow of poverty)



Also, now that I think about it, Warforged are Constructs, right? I guess by RAW that means you can kill them all you want Vow of Peace-type fellow even though they're completely sentient beings! good to know that my character,the one that swore an oath against harming living things, can go on a homicidal rampage as long as his victims are warforeged,golems,or undead (intelligent or not)... wait a second... warforged are living constructs and should be protected until they take feats or a certain prestige class (warforged juggernaut) that make them full fledge robotic social-paths controlled by skynet...or the power gaming role player who wants to be a terminator (with magic)

ZeroNumerous
2008-07-27, 02:16 AM
Except for two key penalties. A: He's a monk. B: He cannot ever gain magical items. A single Raptoran with a footbow defeats your build--two if you take Deflect Arrows. Congrats, I guess?

Demons_eye
2008-07-27, 02:19 AM
Just do the same thing, make him but higher and just play jokes on the party. Have them hating the level 20 guy that goes around switching there meat with vegies. Soon the guy might want to remake.

on a side note: Can you be a warforge Artificer woth this and not break it cuz you are magic? not useing magic items?

Jack_Simth
2008-07-27, 02:32 AM
I guess a better question is how can I threaten (not kill) a player with a high AC without dominating all the other players?

my thoughts for the monsters to...

grapple
flanking
aid another
feinting
entanglement
ignoring the elusive enemy in favor for less elusive enemies

is there anything else am I missing?
Direct-damage spells, either using Reflex saves (which ignore AC completely) or target touch AC (which is usually much lower), will do the job. As will many of the "save or" abilities.

Mostly, though, the guy who won't kill you will be ignored in favor of the guy who will - at least until the guy who will is no longer relevant. Look over your monster's abilities - intelligent melee-types skip the elusive target if they know about the Vows (he can't do much anyway); intelligent caster-types can target his weaknesses (he's relying on AC only, which can be bypassed by the right spell). Other abilities you've already mentioned.

Gorbash
2008-07-27, 05:20 AM
Exalted bonus to AC from VoP specifically says that it doesn't stack with armor bonus. So, it's +12 to AC, and while it's an ok AC bonus, I see no point in opening a whole topic to discuss it, since there are bunch of other ways to gain that one, or even bigger AC bonus at that lvl...

quiet1mi
2008-07-27, 10:11 AM
then why does vow of peace say that if you have vow of poverty then you gain an additional +2 to your armor bonus

Gorbash
2008-07-27, 10:21 AM
You're not reading the rules right. Vow of Peace says that it gives additional +2 AC bonus if you have Vow of Poverty, not additional ARMOR bonus. AC =/= Armor Bonus.

EDIT: What it actually says it gives you an additional +2 Natural armor, +2 deflection and +2 exalted bonus, with additional +2 exalted if you have Vow of Poverty, which gives you additional +4 exalted, so yeah in total you get +16, but you didn't write it correctly, since none of it is an armor bonus. But seriously, what are you going to do with a character who has Vow of Non-violence, poverty and peace?

quiet1mi
2008-07-28, 12:32 AM
Improved unarmed strike allows you to deal damage as nonlethal without penalty, subduing strike does the same but with weapons... so imagine a fighter,monk, or barbarian with the feat that allows him to deal nonlethal damage while raging... but they have an AC of 25-30 and have a high chance (~50% for most humanoid monsters that level) of not being affected by manufactured weapons...

what you end up with is a character that is nigh impossible to hit and if you do hit about half the time that attack will do nothing and your weapon will shatter...

recap of what I have learned

from what every one has been saying, I gather that, to threatened the peace loving(nonlethal) warrior I (PLW for short) will have to....

flank the PLW
Aid another the poor mooks trying to hit the PLW
grapple with the PLW
entangle the PLW
target him with a spell that focus on his weakest save
provide other obstacle (such as poison or drowning)
have the mooks travel with "attack dogs" (monster without manufactured weapons)
have a mook catch the PLW flatfooted (this will open him up to sneak attacks and reduce his AC slightly)
Feint the PLW and make him flatfooted
have the PLW fight mooks in complete darkness (darkness the spell)
have the PLW fight illusionist, so he can see how it feels like to fight a hard to hit adversary (provides interesting foil as well)
have a few mooks be invisible
give the mooks masterwork weapons,and have magical boosting (organizations usually have spell casters that can do that)
make the PLW prone (failed balance for icy terrain)
have the mooks ignore what they can not hit or damage
when all else fails... magic missile the PLW for 1d4+1 points of damage (wands for those spell casting adversaries)

Gorbash
2008-07-28, 05:40 AM
You're kidding, right...?

You need to spend some more time on this forum and learn that fighters and monks suck. Bigtime.

Talic
2008-07-28, 06:02 AM
Creatures immune to nonlethal damage are going to be rather difficult to stop.

Further, Dominate + order to attack. 2 saves, if fail, bye to all exalted stuffs.

Further, Sleep + coup de grace with an improvised weapon (chair, for example). Even if the chair breaks, it's just good WWE style. Now, assuming we're using a 1d6 base (as club), +2 str, and say, a x2 crit modifier, we're looking at an average of a DC 21 fort save, for getting hit with a CHAIR. This one is designed to function well at low levels. and is lethal.

nagora
2008-07-28, 06:42 AM
A better question would be: why are you trying to kill someone who has the vows of poverty, non-violence and peace?
Smugness? :smalltongue:

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-28, 02:40 PM
On the warforged thing...

Warforged are [Living Construct]s, which makes them 'living creatures'.

RTGoodman
2008-07-28, 03:26 PM
On the warforged thing...

Warforged are [Living Construct]s, which makes them 'living creatures'.

Well, Vow of Non-violence just says you can't cause harm or suffering to "humanoid or monstrous humanoid foes," so if you only have it you can definitely attack Warforged.

For Vow of Peace, it says you can't hurt any living creature but that "(constructs and undead are not included in this prohibition)". It's not in the "spirit" of the feat or how it was intended, but I think it'd be awesome to play a Cleric or Paladin or something that fights against those inhuman abominations. :smalltongue:

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-28, 03:30 PM
Something else to keep in mind. Really high AC isn't actually useful. Once they need a 20 to hit, AC thats any higher is just wasted effort, and is likely making you less effective in other areas.

I personally shoot for an AC that my own character would need a 15 to hit (assuming I'm playing a 'makes attack rolls' kind of character). That means I'm pretty safe from the iteratives of my opponents, unless they are better than me.

Talic
2008-07-28, 08:43 PM
I don't even go for that. If you can combine 2 miss chances (say, from concealment and incorporeal) you can have a 75% miss chance, no matter what your AC is.

In short, Miss chance > AC

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-28, 11:37 PM
Well, Vow of Non-violence just says you can't cause harm or suffering to "humanoid or monstrous humanoid foes," so if you only have it you can definitely attack Warforged.

For Vow of Peace, it says you can't hurt any living creature but that "(constructs and undead are not included in this prohibition)". It's not in the "spirit" of the feat or how it was intended, but I think it'd be awesome to play a Cleric or Paladin or something that fights against those inhuman abominations. :smalltongue:

Ah. Well if that's the wording, you are correct, sir! Someone had said the vow disallows harming 'living creatures', but the restrictive 'humanoids' makes it a much less implausible vow. Perhaps you love peace so much you seek to destroy those things created specifically for war?

YOU WILL BECOME WHAT YOU HATE

quiet1mi
2008-07-29, 01:23 AM
@Gorbash just answering what can be done with the character that is not a spell caster or heal bot... the said character could be a commoner for all I care (mobile cover//flanking Buddie//aid another action). A fighter (by fighter meaning someone who does the fighting) or monk (for the tripping,fast movement,disarming action and role playing goodness) IMO would just be a step up...

a more plausible way to annoy of the DM with an untouchable character is to make the said character a beguiler (illusions and such spells provide large % misses [mirror image anyone?]) and the vow of nonviolence provides an extra 20% chance of the enemy falling for your tricks or your save or suck spells or Sorcerer for the extra flexibility.

@Talic: creatures that are immune to nonlethal damage are usually undead or a construct.(which you can deal lethal to...) also to fight the Dominate route, vow of Obedience provides an extra +4 to the save (while not a guarantee to save you, an extra 20% chance to save is always good) also if you violate your vows against your will (magical compulsion) you can regain your feats with the proper atonement (an atonement spell will solve this or fixing the problem that was caused by the lethal damage).

This might be also useful as dealing lethal damage is against your nature.


Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.
The above quote is from the spell dominate person and is not a 100% get out of losing your feats card but another chance and one with a bonus to resist always helps...

EDIT:
Do not forget the reason for the original post which is, to provide a Dm with options when a player has a high AC score from the BoED (or anywhere) in my last post I recapped... if you are stating anything that is not on this subject (telling me that a high ac is irreverent because an intelligent monster can just attack someone else or for another reason, please state that "the high AC is not a problem because this....")

I am not accusing anyone of throwing the posts off topic, i would just like to brainstorm things I can do (other than punish the player and myself by restricting the book entirely). So far I have learned a lot of things I can do from these post and challenging post (like dominating the high AC character and making him break his vows) are a good way of making sure solutions are not one dimensional DMish fiat against the player. This way if I cast Dominate against the high Ac character and they retort with the above quote, I am not out of ideas...

I would just like to repeat that I am so happy that this thread has been a huge help to me in future problems :smallsmile:

Idea Man
2008-07-29, 08:24 PM
While it is true that hitting that pinnacle of AC where everything has to roll twenty to hit you is a bit overkill, I'd like to point out that that means that only one hit in twenty (on average) will hit at all, and one hit in four hundred (on average) will be a crit. Probably for quite a few levels, unless your DM gets frustrated or bored. Combat bliss. :smallbiggrin:

As far as why anyone would want to kill a multiple Vow character, think of it as wearing a 300W halo. The bad guys know you're there to foil their plans; they can tell. The fact that you are a peace-loving, non-violent, penniless philanthropist doesn't matter to them one bit. Oh well, at least they won't be able to hit you. Mostly.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-29, 08:38 PM
Actually, in my experience, when PCs get ACs that high, DMs start picking monsters and NPCs with really high to-hit. Which means they roll off to hit high AC guy, but auto-hit the rest of the party.

From DM to DM, modify your encounters to increase effects that don't care about AC.