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View Full Version : Is this cheesy? True Necromancer (3.5) trick



JoshuaZ
2008-07-26, 03:03 PM
The True Necromancer gains at level one the following:



The true necromancer has unsurpassed
power over death. When she casts necromantic spells
(from the school of Necromancy or the domain of Death),
all her spellcaster levels stack for purposes of determining
their effect. She does not gain access to higher-level
spells any faster than normal, but the specified spells
behave as though cast by someone of that higher level.
For example, a 5th-level cleric/5th-level wizard/2ndlevel
true necromancer has added her two effective level
increases to her wizard class. If she casts an arcane,
nonnecromancy spell, her caster level is 7th, while for a
divine, nondeath spell, it is 5th. However, if she casts a
spell from the Necromancy school or Death domain, her
effective caster level is 12th (equal to her character level).


So here is the idea: take a few levels in mystic theurge and then take a level 1 dip into True Necromancer. This allows your necromancy spells to have ridiculously high caster levels since you get the sum of both the divine side and the arcane side for the necromancy caster level.

For example, cleric 3/wizard/3/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 1 is now casting necromancy spells at level 11 even though they are only level 10. And this gets more ridiculous as the level numbers increase. If one takes mystic theurge up all the way one is level 17 and casting necromancy spells at level 27. Cleric 3/wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 2/ some other PRC 2 is casting necromancy spells at level 30.

Among other results this means you can control a lot more undead with Animate Dead and you can use Create Undead and Create Greater Undead to make much bigger undead than you should be able to.

And this is all without caster boosting feats or items.

So is too cheesy? Is it something that actually makes the mystic theurge worth taking? Or am I missing something here.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-26, 03:09 PM
So, wait, would I be right if I understood that Mystic Theurge gave both divine and arcane caster levels, which combines with this for doubled casting progression, resulting in more powerful, longer lasting spells?

JoshuaZ
2008-07-26, 03:16 PM
So, wait, would I be right if I understood that Mystic Theurge gave both divine and arcane caster levels, which combines with this for doubled casting progression, resulting in more powerful, longer lasting spells?

Correct. But it only works for necromancy spells and spells in the Death domain (which you need to have to qualify for True Necromancer anyways).

Douglas
2008-07-26, 03:35 PM
I think the phrase "spellcaster levels" is referring to class levels, not caster level. By that interpretation, Mystic Theurge and other dual casting classes do not count double.

Also, I don't know where the version you quoted is from, but the True Necromancer in Libris Mortis does not have that ability. It has an ability that starts almost exactly the same ("gains unsurpassed power over death"), but that ability is gained at 3rd level and is just a constant caster level bonus for necromancy, not a special stacking rule.

Arakune
2008-07-26, 03:43 PM
The True Necromancer gains at level one the following:



So here is the idea: take a few levels in mystic theurge and then take a level 1 dip into True Necromancer. This allows your necromancy spells to have ridiculously high caster levels since you get the sum of both the divine side and the arcane side for the necromancy caster level.

For example, cleric 3/wizard/3/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 1 is now casting necromancy spells at level 11 even though they are only level 10. And this gets more ridiculous as the level numbers increase. If one takes mystic theurge up all the way one is level 17 and casting necromancy spells at level 27. Cleric 3/wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 2/ some other PRC 2 is casting necromancy spells at level 30.

Among other results this means you can control a lot more undead with Animate Dead and you can use Create Undead and Create Greater Undead to make much bigger undead than you should be able to.

And this is all without caster boosting feats or items.

So is too cheesy? Is it something that actually makes the mystic theurge worth taking? Or am I missing something here.

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1 = Arcane CL 4, Divine CL 4

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 1 = Arcane CL 6, Divine CL 5, Necromancy CL 11, Death CL 11

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 1 = Arcane CL 16, Divine CL 13, Necromancy CL 29, Death CL 29

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 4 = Arcane CL 17, Divine CL 13, Necromancy CL 30, Death CL 30

----------
:smalleek: If you put something more that can up your Divine and Arcane spell casting...

9th level arcane spells, 7th level divine spells, Necromantic CL at 30, Death CL at 30...

If you ever want to start a zombiegedon, that's the way to do it :smallbiggrin:

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 04:20 PM
Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1 = Arcane CL 4, Divine CL 4

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 1 = Arcane CL 6, Divine CL 5, Necromancy CL 11, Death CL 11

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 1 = Arcane CL 16, Divine CL 13, Necromancy CL 29, Death CL 29

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 4 = Arcane CL 17, Divine CL 13, Necromancy CL 30, Death CL 30


This can't be right, the first and second lines are still correct, but the third line gives +10 arcane CL for 8 MT levels and the forth line gives only one arcane CL and no divine CL for 3 TN levels, which seems unlikely for a dual caster PRC.

But anyway, is caster level really such a big deal? longer lasting spells? harder to counter? why do we care?

Dairun Cates
2008-07-26, 04:25 PM
This can't be right, the first and second lines are still correct, but the third line gives +10 arcane CL for 8 MT levels and the forth line gives only one arcane CL and no divine CL for 3 TN levels, which seems unlikely for a dual caster PRC.

But anyway, is caster level really such a big deal? longer lasting spells? harder to counter? why do we care?

Hey. All you gotta do is convince your GM to let you invent a necromantic version of melf's acid arrow and you're golden. But seriously, I'm pretty sure the levels don't get to count double. At least, I would rule it as such. Still, it doesn't do a whole lot.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 04:30 PM
Hey. All you gotta do is convince your GM to let you invent a necromantic version of melf's acid arrow and you're golden. But seriously, I'm pretty sure the levels don't get to count double. At least, I would rule it as such. Still, it doesn't do a whole lot.


A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round.

It doesn't even work, but seriously melf's acid arrow? Can't you do better than that?????

my best hit? Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm)

Dairun Cates
2008-07-26, 04:33 PM
It doesn't even work, but seriously melf's acid arrow? Can't you do better than that?????

my best hit? Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm)

Actually, I just said Melf's because it's mostly humorous. There are a FEW things that gain effects like melf's with no cap, but I can't remember them right now.

Edit: And I suppose you just REALLY want to kill that entire metropolis except for the deaf people.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-26, 04:39 PM
Edit: And I suppose you just REALLY want to kill that entire metropolis except for the deaf people.

no it's still limited to a 40 ft spread.

shadow_archmagi
2008-07-26, 04:58 PM
no it's still limited to a 40 ft spread.

Yes, but its nice being able to obliterate your enemies from the comfort of your own home.

JoshuaZ
2008-07-26, 07:07 PM
This version of the True Necromancer is in Tome and Blood (pg. 69). This appears to be published prior to the version in Libris Mortis so does that one maybe supercede this one? The classes are very different. The one in LM doesn't even have the same number of levels as the one in T&B.


This can't be right, the first and second lines are still correct, but the third line gives +10 arcane CL for 8 MT levels and the forth line gives only one arcane CL and no divine CL for 3 TN levels, which seems unlikely for a dual caster PRC.


No. That's correct. The class is a bit strange. You only get one additional caster level each level but decide which of your caster classes to add it to. So you could add it to your divine or your arcane side.



But anyway, is caster level really such a big deal? longer lasting spells? harder to counter? why do we care?

I think the real key way of using this trick (if it works) is to focus on the undead. You have higher caster level which means you can create more undead with Animate Dead and have a larger total control pool. Similarly, you get to create more powerful undead with Create Undead and Create Greater Undead than you would be able to at that level normally. For example when you are 14th level you can create a Morg.

Douglas
2008-07-26, 07:25 PM
Tome and Blood is a 3.0 rulebook. Libris Mortis is 3.5 and takes precedence as the more recent book.

JoshuaZ
2008-07-26, 07:26 PM
Tome and Blood is a 3.0 rulebook. Libris Mortis is 3.5 and takes precedence as the more recent book.

Well darn. That settles that. Ah well. Never mind then.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-07-26, 11:02 PM
Take the feat Theurgic Specialist from Dragon 325, it makes any spell cast from your specialized school (Necromancy) use the total caster levels of all your spellcasting classes as the caster level. Use that with the feat Song of the Dead from Dragon 312, which turns any spell into a Necromancy spell for +1 spell level, which with a Slaymate companion from Libris Mortis you can use for free.

An Illumian Duskblade 1/ Warmage 1/ Necromancer 3/ Cleric 3/ Sorcerer 1/ Favored Soul 1/ Mystic Theurge 10, with Theurgic Specialist, Song of the Dead, Enhanced Power Sigils, the Krau sigil, a Slaymate companion, and Practiced Spellcaster x4 will cast all his spells at caster level 64, or with flaws for Practiced Spellcaster twice more caster level 72.

Habeed
2008-07-27, 12:08 AM
Well, going with it...what level of spells would this character be able to cast with such an insane caster level? Furthermore, assuming for the sake of argument that this is all legal, does this caster level mean that you could cast epic spells, if you had a spell slot to memorize at least 1 epic spell in, with this level of power?

Or cast Wish? Trying to see a way that this character could cheese their way to demi-god levels of power, and be able to cast a spell every day that affects a few square miles at once. Like, being able to create a plane, or create a fire effect equivalent to a nuclear blast, or just cast a death spell with a save so high that it can't be stopped.

Rashmi
2008-07-27, 12:13 AM
Take the feat Theurgic Specialist from Dragon 325, it makes any spell cast from your specialized school (Necromancy) use the total caster levels of all your spellcasting classes as the caster level. Use that with the feat Song of the Dead from Dragon 312, which turns any spell into a Necromancy spell for +1 spell level, which with a Slaymate companion from Libris Mortis you can use for free.

An Illumian Duskblade 1/ Warmage 1/ Necromancer 3/ Cleric 3/ Sorcerer 1/ Favored Soul 1/ Mystic Theurge 10, with Theurgic Specialist, Song of the Dead, Enhanced Power Sigils, the Krau sigil, a Slaymate companion, and Practiced Spellcaster x4 will cast all his spells at caster level 64, or with flaws for Practiced Spellcaster twice more caster level 72.

Or even better, a Illumian Duskblade 1/Bard 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Beguiler 1/Ur Priest 1/Wu Jen 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Suel Archanamage 1/Warmage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 with those same feats/abilities and a Ring of Arcane whatever and Ioun Stone could cast all spells at CL 220. That even beats the Word, without Thought Bottle cheese. And you have 9th level Arcane and Divine Spells. (Dump Int, then PoA into something so you can cast your few hundred Mage Armors and Protections from Evil with Wizard/Duskblade/Beguiler/Wu Jen.)

Or you could skip the Slaymate and just specialize in Evocation and go straight to CL 220 Blasphemies and Holy Words.

EDIT: Didn't factor in the Illumian part, that's another +1 or +22, depending on the exact wording.

RTGoodman
2008-07-27, 12:16 AM
Well, going with it...what level of spells would this character be able to cast with such an insane caster level?

Caster Level doesn't have anything to do with what level spells you can actually cast. Those are determined by your actual levels in your spellcasting class. "Caster Level" is sorta just how powerful your spells are and determines how long they last, how many creatures they effect, and stuff like that. See HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel) for more information.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-27, 12:40 AM
why not just make a warcluck and unleash an army of exploding undead chickens?

SadisticFishing
2008-07-27, 12:46 AM
A Nar Demonbinder/Sublime Chord has a caster level of infinity. At level 12.

I have no idea if this is true anymore. The logic here is making my brain hurt.

I think you may need another of the same sort of class...

Arbitrarity
2008-07-27, 12:50 AM
Nuh-uh. Both those are based on "Levels in another class", not "caster level" or somesuch.

SadisticFishing
2008-07-27, 12:52 AM
You win, good sir. I never really thought about too hard, except once in the shower I went "WAIT A SEC! Infinity caster level! bwahaha"

And never double checked.

jcsw
2008-07-27, 09:45 AM
Infinite Manifester Level:

1. Erudite 9, with convert spell to power variant from WotC website (Forgot where)
2. Learn Mental Pinnacle from a Scroll.
3. Get an Ioun Stone of +1 CL, which can also give +1 ML
3. Cast mental pinnacle once, getting a ML of 10+1
4. Cast mental pinnacle again, getting a ML of 11+1
5. Cast mental pinnacle again, paying 2 more PP to be able to ignore material component, gain ML of 12+1
6. Repeatedly Cast.
7. ????
8. Profit!

Since he can convert spells into powers, he can cast "spells" at really high caster levels, so long as he can keep up the process, he just needs a lot of prep rounds. Once he gets a manifester level of 5000 plus, it lasts long enough for him to sleep 8 hours. So yeah, not infinite, unless you combine it with some method of infinite standard actions a round.

GrandMasterMe
2008-07-27, 11:43 AM
Take the feat Theurgic Specialist from Dragon 325, it makes any spell cast from your specialized school (Necromancy) use the total caster levels of all your spellcasting classes as the caster level. Use that with the feat Song of the Dead from Dragon 312, which turns any spell into a Necromancy spell for +1 spell level, which with a Slaymate companion from Libris Mortis you can use for free.

An Illumian Duskblade 1/ Warmage 1/ Necromancer 3/ Cleric 3/ Sorcerer 1/ Favored Soul 1/ Mystic Theurge 10, with Theurgic Specialist, Song of the Dead, Enhanced Power Sigils, the Krau sigil, a Slaymate companion, and Practiced Spellcaster x4 will cast all his spells at caster level 64, or with flaws for Practiced Spellcaster twice more caster level 72.
Taking Practiced Spellcaster that more than five times will just be redundent, the feat states: ...This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your hit dice.... so at 20th level, assuming that you use the feat on a single level class that dosent stack with anthing else will get you a caster level bonus of +19

Arakune
2008-07-27, 11:53 AM
This can't be right, the first and second lines are still correct, but the third line gives +10 arcane CL for 8 MT levels and the forth line gives only one arcane CL and no divine CL for 3 TN levels, which seems unlikely for a dual caster PRC.

But anyway, is caster level really such a big deal? longer lasting spells? harder to counter? why do we care?


My bad, it's still not 29, but still up the roof.

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 1

Wiz 3 + MT 10 + True Necromancer = Arcane CL 14
Cleric 3 + MT 10 = Divine CL 13

Necro CL 27, Death CL 27

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 4

Wiz 3 + MT 10 + TN 4 = Arcane CL 17
Cleric 3 + MT 10 = Divine CL 13

Necro CL 30, Death CL 30.

Douglas
2008-07-27, 12:59 PM
Taking Practiced Spellcaster that more than five times will just be redundent, the feat states: ...This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your hit dice.... so at 20th level, assuming that you use the feat on a single level class that dosent stack with anthing else will get you a caster level bonus of +19
He's not taking it a bunch of times for the same class - that's not even a legal use of the feat. He's taking it once for each of his base spellcasting classes, and no one class is even close to the cap.