Dragon Lance!!!

[SkanMan]

hey everyone, question.


I grew up reading dragon lance books. I loved them I must have read at least twenty and regardless of what anyone else says i find them superior to forgotton realms. so. the question is this; why is it that no one has heard of dragon lance, no one plays dragon lance themed campaigns and why forgotton realms got so big so quick and everyone's favorite adventuring party (tannis, raistlin, caramon, tasselhoff etc...) kind of just...disappeared...

idk, maybe im just a D&D noob, but what happened?

this post is for everybody who knows that tiamat's real name is takhisiss, the greygem made gnomes dagerously curious, bipedal reptillians only exist in the form of draconians, and finally dalamar-not drizzt- is the reigning o.g. dark elf

[RTGoodman]

Yeah, I think you're just a D&D noob. :smalltongue:

Seriously, as a 3.0-4E player, I think Dragonlance was more a 2nd Edition campaign setting, since that's when it was new and popular. I know a lot of people that played in the DL setting back then, but I don't know many that have play a DL game in 3.x (and NO ONE has done a 4E DL campaign, I bet). I've been playing to do one in 3.x or 4E, but I don't have a group that knows much about the setting (alas, those folks were at college 3 hours away).

If you're interested, I know WotC put out a 3.x Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and Weis and Hickman's Sovereign Press have done a whole line of supplements. I personally own their War of the Lance sourcebook, and I know they've done the original Chronicles trilogy in adventure module format if you're into that kind of thing.

I personally love the books that were set during the War of the Lance era and whatnot, but I really can't stand anything after the original heroes' kids grew up. Have you read the Lost Chronicles books yet? I know the 3rd one (Dragons of the Hour-Glass Mage) is lost in copyright Hell between WotC and the authors, but the first two were decent at least.

[Spiryt]

Personally I find Qualinesti (or were they Silvanesti?) one of the worst written "standardly oh so good race" ever. Although I've read only Dalamar the Dark.

[Matthew]

If you're interested, I know WotC put out a 3.x Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and Weis and Hickman's Sovereign Press have done a whole line of supplements. I personally own their War of the Lance sourcebook, and I know they've done the original Chronicles trilogy in adventure module format if you're into that kind of thing.

Hmmn. I'm not that up on this, but I thought all of the D20 Dragonlance stuff was put out by Margaret Weis Productions. I didn't know the Dragonlance Campaign Setting was released by Wizards of the Coast.

Anyway, basically, Dragonlance stalled in the mid nineties when they rebooted the campaign world and tried to disassociate it from AD&D. It never really recovered from that, it's height of popularity being the 1980s. In my opinion, lack of official support from Wizards of the Coast from 2000 onwards (I think it was licensed to Weis and company in 2003) meant that its fanbase remained dislocated from the mainstream D&D fanbase, much like Kingdoms of Kalamar.

Here is a partial list of official D20 material: Dragonlance D20 (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/3d/3d.htm).

Ahah, here's full listing: Dragonlance D20 (http://www.dragonlance.com/products/).

With the license pulled and all, it will probably be pretty difficult to get copies of this stuff soon.

[RTGoodman]

Hmmn. I'm not that up on this, but I thought all of the D20 Dragonlance stuff was put out by Margaret Weis Productions. I didn't know the Dragonlance Campaign Setting was released by Wizards of the Coast.

Yeah, it's definitely got the WotC logo inside on the title page and whatnot. That's part of the reason I originally had a lot of trouble finding stuff for 3.x DL stuff - I assumed that WotC were the people releasing it, and I didn't know Weis & Hickman did the rest of the d20 stuff until I asked about it in a thread here.


With the license pulled and all, it will probably be pretty difficult to get copies of this stuff soon.

That's why I'm trying to decide if I want to pick up more of the material or not. I don't know yet if my normal group is going with 3.5 or 4E and if I'm going to be doing much DMing soon, so I don't want to pick up the books that are mostly crunch if I won't be able to use it.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I have skimmed through the Campaign Setting and Bestiary and they are mainly game stats (as you would expect with a Bestiary, at least). I don't know what the other products are like, but they look to be mainly retreads of previous material statted out for D20. Difficult decision.

[bosssmiley]

Anyway, basically, Dragonlance stalled in the mid nineties when they rebooted the campaign world and tried to disassociate it from AD&D. It never really recovered from that, it's height of popularity being the 1980s. In my opinion, lack of official support from Wizards of the Coast from 2000 onwards (I think it was licensed to Weis and company in 2003) meant that its fanbase remained dislocated from the mainstream D&D fanbase, much like Kingdoms of Kalamar.

Partially this, and partially the fact that (like LOTR) the Dragonlance world had only one major plotline: the War of the Lance. Either you play in the (horribly rail-roaded) adventures that form that story, or you're nothing but a sideshow or a prequel story. And who wants to play a secondary hero?

The further Dragonlance got from its War of the Lance roots the hazier, less focused and less evocative the setting became; ultimately degenerating into 'Dragonlance on the box only' syndrome.

Grognardia sprays more bile and rabid foam at this (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-dragonlance-ruined-everything.html) than I can be bothered to.

[SkanMan]

wow..that was more info than i expected

[kamikasei]

I think the basic issue is that it's hard to adapt a work of fiction into a vibrant setting. Forgotten Realms has fiction, but so far as I'm aware wasn't built around one core story. It also had the advantage of a lot of iconic CRPGs being based in it, though that may be a chicken-or-egg situation: which came first, the plethora of CRPGs making FR known to prospective new tabletop gamers, or the popularity of the Realms which made it a good candidate for setting CRPGs?

[The J Pizzel]

wow..that was more info than i expected

Yeah. Some of us that have been here a while rezognize certain forumites and respect the obvious strong points they have. For example: Vorpal is the king of homebrewed monsters (and he's a pretty good movie critic as well), Lord Silvanos is quite possibly the god of RAW (as well as a Tyranical Tyrant of Popcorn), The Oob, Dhaever, Charity, and several others have been here long enough that those of us who've been here as long (all though aren't near as vocal) have accepted that they kinda know what they're talking about. I'm not saying they're perfect or anything (well, except may Silvanos), but I usually take what they say with a certain degree of validity. I'm not saying this is official by any means. It's just what I've noticed being here for a long time.

As far as Matthew is concerned...he's pretty much the smartest person on the whole damn planet.

jP

[JadedDM]

Seriously, as a 3.0-4E player, I think Dragonlance was more a 2nd Edition campaign setting, since that's when it was new and popular.

Not to nitpick, but Dragonlance started as a 1E campaign setting.

[Behold_the_Void]

Personally I find Qualinesti (or were they Silvanesti?) one of the worst written "standardly oh so good race" ever. Although I've read only Dalamar the Dark.

That's kind of the point of it. The elven races are flawed in their supreme arrogance, among other things. Same applies to most of the races in the setting, it's not supposed to be completely black-and-white.

[TheEmerged]

My own experience with the setting was mostly during the 5th Age / SAGA era of the world. It has its charm, but I agree with the earlier comment that the world is too tied up in one particular story chain.

[Gaelbert]

Partially this, and partially the fact that (like LOTR) the Dragonlance world had only one major plotline: the War of the Lance. Either you play in the (horribly rail-roaded) adventures that form that story, or you're nothing but a sideshow or a prequel story. And who wants to play a secondary hero?

The further Dragonlance got from its War of the Lance roots the hazier, less focused and less evocative the setting became; ultimately degenerating into 'Dragonlance on the box only' syndrome.

Grognardia sprays more bile and rabid foam at this (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-dragonlance-ruined-everything.html) than I can be bothered to.

I'm gaelbert, and I'm a recovering Dragonlance-aholic. While my obsession with this setting has waned, I have only to go to my special bookcase to find over 100 dragonlance books. Therefore, I'm obviously slanted towards the series from the novel perspective, but there are a good deal more plotlines to play in than the Was of the Lance. Even though I haven't read a Dragonlance book in what must be 3 years now, I can still, off the top of my head, think of the War of the Twins, and the War of the Souls. Then there's that one Dragons of a summer something or other where the
gods leave or something like that.
So from a story perspective, there are a good deal more things to play. And I have the DL campaign setting, and I remember it has infoez and so on about other eras of play.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Some of us that have been here a while rezognize certain forumites and respect the obvious strong points they have. For example: Vorpal is the king of homebrewed monsters (and he's a pretty good movie critic as well), Lord Silvanos is quite possibly the god of RAW (as well as a Tyranical Tyrant of Popcorn), The Oob, Dhaever, Charity, and several others have been here long enough that those of us who've been here as long (all though aren't near as vocal) have accepted that they kinda know what they're talking about. I'm not saying they're perfect or anything (well, except may Silvanos), but I usually take what they say with a certain degree of validity. I'm not saying this is official by any means. It's just what I've noticed being here for a long time.

As far as Matthew is concerned...he's pretty much the smartest person on the whole damn planet.

Ha, ha. That last sentence is obviously not true, but it pleases my ego to read it. :smallbiggrin:



I'm gaelbert, and I'm a recovering Dragonlance-aholic. While my obsession with this setting has waned, I have only to go to my special bookcase to find over 100 dragonlance books. Therefore, I'm obviously slanted towards the series from the novel perspective, but there are a good deal more plotlines to play in than the Was of the Lance. Even though I haven't read a Dragonlance book in what must be 3 years now, I can still, off the top of my head, think of the War of the Twins, and the War of the Souls. Then there's that one Dragons of a summer something or other where the
gods leave or something like that.
So from a story perspective, there are a good deal more things to play. And I have the DL campaign setting, and I remember it has infoez and so on about other eras of play.

Hello, coolgaelbert, welcome to Dragonlance-aholics anonomous...

Yeah, there's definitely more to do on Krynn than just play out the events of the 'War of the Lance', but it's also the best supported period to play in. I think it's more fun if you ditch the 'Heroes of the Lance' and have players who have never read the books (the modules actually preceded the novels, I certainly wish I'd played them before reading the books). I always wanted to play during Huma's time, personally.

[ghost_warlock]

Hello, I'm ghost_warlock and I'm a recovering DragonLance-aholic (although I'm about as close to being fully recovered as a person can get).

My first D&D character, ever, had a name stolen from a DragonLance novel; in fact many of my characters, and the characters of the gaming group I started with (my close friends and family), stole names from DragonLance novels for our characters.

My first D&D character, ever, was named Gilbenstock. Bonus points if you can tell me what novel that name appears in. :smallbiggrin:

[SnowballMan]

If you want to be cured of DragonLancaholism, then just watch the animated movie. That will kill it.

Among other things.

[TheEmerged]

So from a story perspective, there are a good deal more things to play. And I have the DL campaign setting, and I remember it has infoez and so on about other eras of play.

Understand, I'm not saying it's a bad series because it's not. It's a good series and a decent world. Most of my favorite D&D novels come from Dragonlance.

But I'd argue all the 'great deal more things' tend to just be different parts/eras of the same story -- the War of the Lance is just one of the more epic moment of that story. It's a *great* story, but not as compelling a world in my opinion. Think of it as the opposite of the Potter line (a decent story in an interesting world).

[Mr. Scaly]

Understand, I'm not saying it's a bad series because it's not. It's a good series and a decent world. Most of my favorite D&D novels come from Dragonlance.

But I'd argue all the 'great deal more things' tend to just be different parts/eras of the same story -- the War of the Lance is just one of the more epic moment of that story. It's a *great* story, but not as compelling a world in my opinion. Think of it as the opposite of the Potter line (a decent story in an interesting world).

You know, as soon as I started reading the expansion books that's how I started looking at the series. From a gameplay perspective DnD is one massive world of campaigns to run through. Heck my first campaign was sometime after the Chaos War and my character was an Irda whose spellbook was stolen by a thief serving under a renegade Dark Knight!

I rather like the direction the series has gone and the way it's branched out. History is about more than one event on a relatively small part of a continent.

And by the by? I'm Mr. Scaly, quite happy in my Dragonlance-aholicism.

[RTGoodman]

Not to nitpick, but Dragonlance started as a 1E campaign setting.

1E, OD&D, 2E, AD&D, whatever - it's all the same to me. :smallwink: I did say that I started with 3.x.


Yeah, there's definitely more to do on Krynn than just play out the events of the 'War of the Lance', but it's also the best supported period to play in. I think it's more fun if you ditch the 'Heroes of the Lance' and have players who have never read the books (the modules actually preceded the novels, I certainly wish I'd played them before reading the books). I always wanted to play during Huma's time, personally.

I've been thinking about doing that exact thing - none of my normal group have read any D&D novels besides various Drizzt books, and I think it could be neat. Especially the whole, "Oh, divine casters, by the way - you don't have any spells, supernatural abilities, or anything like that. Oh, and no Paladins. Bards either." :smalltongue:

I really need to go back and read about the history of Krynn and the novels set back during Huma's time and BEFORE the WotL. All I know is the era right afterward, and I'm not that impressed. I also picked up Karen Fonstad's "Atlas of the Dragonlance World" and might have to read through it again. (If you're interested, she also did a great "Atlas of Middle-Earth" and a few others.)

[Matthew]

1E, OD&D, 2E, AD&D, whatever - it's all the same to me. :smallwink: I did say that I started with 3.x.

Heh, heh.



I've been thinking about doing that exact thing - none of my normal group have read any D&D novels besides various Drizzt books, and I think it could be neat. Especially the whole, "Oh, divine casters, by the way - you don't have any spells, supernatural abilities, or anything like that. Oh, and no Paladins. Bards either." :smalltongue:

Well, don't slap them around too hard, but yeah, I think that's definitely the best way to approach Dragonlance as a gaming world. Of course, you'll probably have players wander off and read the books eventually, but you can just explain that the books are an "alternative" version of what might have happened.



I really need to go back and read about the history of Krynn and the novels set back during Huma's time and BEFORE the WotL. All I know is the era right afterward, and I'm not that impressed.

Yah, the stupid Age of Mortals sucked, in my opinion, but not everyone agrees. Still, Kaz the Minotaur I remember being a very good read and there's plenty of inspirational material to dig up (without being straight jacketed into a "story") of pre cataclysm (or even just post cataclysm) Krynn.



I also picked up Karen Fonstad's "Atlas of the Dragonlance World" and might have to read through it again. (If you're interested, she also did a great "Atlas of Middle-Earth" and a few others.)

I hear very good things about her. I actually have the Forgotten Realms Atlas she did around here somewhere. I remember being very impressed with it, and I think I looked it over again a couple of years back, and remained impressed. Definitely worth picking up her work.

As a side note, anybody interested in detailed maps of Oerth should check this out: Greyhawk Maps (http://ghmaps.net/maps.html).

[JadedDM]

1E, OD&D, 2E, AD&D, whatever - it's all the same to me. I did say that I started with 3.x.

*twitch*

I wonder if one day, in the future, those who grew up on 4E will lump 3E in with all of its predecessors. It's hard for me to imagine, but you never know...

[Mr. Scaly]

Speaking of Dragonlance, I've checked the release dates and there's four books coming out this year I want to get, including the finale to Weis' Dark Disciple trilogy. Does anyone else have a lot of novel buying to do this year?

[RTGoodman]

Does anyone else have a lot of novel buying to do this year?

Well, not anymore. I literally JUST learned that the ONE book I was waiting for (the last of the Lost Chronicles trilogy) has been pushed until NEXT summer. :smallannoyed:

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, not anymore. I literally JUST learned that the ONE book I was waiting for (the last of the Lost Chronicles trilogy) has been pushed until NEXT summer. :smallannoyed:

Well that's annoying...

I'd recommend the Ogre Titans trilogy by Knaak. Things are happening in Kern and Blode that may change Ansalon forever...

[RTGoodman]

Well, apparently THE place to get Dragonlance products is your local used books store. I stopped by Edward McKay's yesterday (it's a chain in NC, but it might exist elsewhere) and they had not only about 8 actual DL RPG supplements (including the Time of the Twins setting book, the WotL book that I already own, and a TON of AD&D stuff), but also probably 80 or more of the novels.

I picked up:

-The Legend of Huma (Heroes v. I)
-Kaz the Minotaur (Heroes II, v. I)
-The Oath and the Measure (The Meetings Sextet, v. IV)*
-The Magic of Krynn (Tales, v. I)
-The Covenant of the Forge (Dwarven Nations Trilogy, v. I)

*They had four or five of the six in the sextet, but I only bought IV since Sturm is my favorite of the original companions. I might pick up the others later, though.

Those, along with a CD, only cost me like $12, and now I'm all set to be reading for at least a few days. :smallbiggrin:

[Matthew]

Very cool. That's the good thing about out of print material, it tends to be damn cheap! :smallbiggrin:

[Kerouac]

Well, apparently THE place to get Dragonlance products is your local used books store. I stopped by Edward McKay's yesterday (it's a chain in NC, but it might exist elsewhere) and they had not only about 8 actual DL RPG supplements (including the Time of the Twins setting book, the WotL book that I already own, and a TON of AD&D stuff), but also probably 80 or more of the novels.

I picked up:

-The Legend of Huma (Heroes v. I)
-Kaz the Minotaur (Heroes II, v. I)
-The Oath and the Measure (The Meetings Sextet, v. IV)*
-The Magic of Krynn (Tales, v. I)
-The Covenant of the Forge (Dwarven Nations Trilogy, v. I)

*They had four or five of the six in the sextet, but I only bought IV since Sturm is my favorite of the original companions. I might pick up the others later, though.

Those, along with a CD, only cost me like $12, and now I'm all set to be reading for at least a few days. :smallbiggrin:

I just ebay'd all of the modules for 3E Chronicles (Dragons of "X") as well as the War of the Lance Campaign Setting the newest Age of Mortals Campaign Companion Book and the War of the Twins books. The one I really want is Tower of High Sorcery but it's going for a lot of $$$$ if you can even find one. :smallfurious:

[Dacia Brabant]

I always wanted to play during Huma's time, personally.

That would've been pretty cool, but the setting I always wanted to run a game in is the aftermath of the Cataclysm. There was a lot that I didn't like about DragonLance but that I think would've been badass, too bad none of the people I played with back in the day wanted anything to do with DL, mostly because of tinker gnomes, gully dwarves and kender. Maybe I should've ruled that the Cataclysm wiped them out...at least the kender.

[Mr. Scaly]

Heck, I always wanted to play as a draconian.

[Helanna]

I don't know about the role-playing game, but wow am I so addicted to the books. It's one of three series that I absolutely must read regularly.



Well, not anymore. I literally JUST learned that the ONE book I was waiting for (the last of the Lost Chronicles trilogy) has been pushed until NEXT summer.

WHAT?! Well darn, now what? Dark Disciple already ended, so now what do I read? Grrr.

[Kneenibble]

If you want to be cured of DragonLancaholism, then just watch the animated movie. That will kill it.

Among other things.

Now that's not fair, that film was a quality showcase of animation talent, conventional and CG. Not to mention its voice acting! Any Dragonlance fan will appreciate the work and money that went into so beautifully bringing Krynn to life.

:yuk:

[Cheesegear]

Me, personally, DragonLance-aholism has got me in it's grasp. For a series that goes for long time without going stale is a testament to how good it is. Killing off your older characters to make room for new ones is something Salvatore can't seem to do (although that's probably not his fault).

People whinge and cry about how Raistlin got de-powered, and how it was never good after that...Dalamar was still around. And his personality was almost exactly like Raistlin's. Except that he wasn't a glory-hog.
Any single one of the dragons has more depth that any of the characters of FR. Pyrite just wins (but probably 'cause he hangs out with Fizban). And Mirror almost always makes me sad. Especially when he hangs out with Skie.

The writing style of the War of Souls is infinitely better than the writing seen in War of the Lance.

The Dhamon Saga is also pretty good.

Hell, DragonLance has Lord Soth in it. Win.

[Ebonsword]

I read the Dragonlance books when they first came out (I think I was about 12 or so) and I absolutely loved them at the time. Being a bit of a nerdy loner, I instantly latched on to Raistlin as the coolest character ever.

The quality, though, seemed to leap off a cliff after the first two trilogies. And, boy, those later books really must have sucked, because I tried to re-read the original series a few years ago and I had absolutely no idea why I originally liked it. The writing seemed absolutely terrible!

[Yulian]

Anyway, basically, Dragonlance stalled in the mid nineties when they rebooted the campaign world and tried to disassociate it from AD&D. It never really recovered from that, it's height of popularity being the 1980s. In my opinion, lack of official support from Wizards of the Coast from 2000 onwards (I think it was licensed to Weis and company in 2003) meant that its fanbase remained dislocated from the mainstream D&D fanbase, much like Kingdoms of Kalamar.

...

With the license pulled and all, it will probably be pretty difficult to get copies of this stuff soon.

Hickman and Weis didn't do themselves any favours with that. They were writing in a shared world and the other D&D writers, (people like Andrew Cermak and John Mangrum) even used at least one of their characters (Soth) in another setting (Ravenloft). Then H&W turned around and said "Nope, he was never there, scrub all references.".

I also have to go with bosssmiley. It's rails. The war goes on to a pretty well inevitable conclusion and unless you're playing the party from the stories, the setting doesn't have much of a focus. I also think it pushed "high fantasy" almost as far as it can conceivably go...not everyone's cup of tea.

- Yulian

[Mikeavelli]

Wasn't the whole setting based around their own homebrew campaign? Like, the whole War of the Lance was just one giant campaign that eventually got novelized, and then statted up as its own independent world.

Anyways, I actually got one of the Dragonlance boxed sets back in the day, and it included some kind of card game. Does anyone remember that?

It was really weird, I never ended up actually playing it.

I really loved the stories though.

[jamroar]

Wasn't the whole setting based around their own homebrew campaign? Like, the whole War of the Lance was just one giant campaign that eventually got novelized, and then statted up as its own independent world.

It was a novelization of a series of 1st ed. modules, like a sort of War of the Lance Adventure Path, with the some of the default pre-generated characters becoming the heroes of the Lance.



Anyways, I actually got one of the Dragonlance boxed sets back in the day, and it included some kind of card game. Does anyone remember that?

It was really weird, I never ended up actually playing it.

I really loved the stories though.
That should be the SAGA System Fifth Age box set, I think, when they tried to transplant the setting away from AD&D.