Upset About Celia?

[Arameus]

I swear they should call Celia 'Shelan.' I always really liked her character before this arc. Perhaps it's because she simply didn't have as much chance to show it before, but her whole hippy-dippy side and retard-level naivete seem to have been ass-pulled entirely from the moment she gets summoned to Azure City by the talisman, for no other purpose than to act as a foil to Haley's role as the savvy veteran and Belkar's role as the violent lunatic.

Like I said, this could probably just be waved away by saying she never had a chance to show this side before, but I for one think that the talisman actually summoned Celia's twin sister Dahlia, an escaped psycopath who murdered her sister in an attempt to take over her life. I really wonder how long it will be before something triggers a dangerous episode in Dahlia's warped mind and she starts trying to kill off the main party one at a time.

I mean, unlikely? Yeah, but it seems like a far more appealing explanation than that Rich, a heretofore exemplary writer, chose to recast a hard-luck but cunning defense attorney with a fair capablility for cynicism into a nagging, bratty airhead who failed to notice five murders within arms' reach of her, one of which was all but clearly admitted to her. An attorney. In law school. Where they probably offer Murderonomy 301.

Even if this change works for the strip where it is right now, it just strikes me as too harsh a change to stomach, especially since I liked the character up to this point and now she just inspires bile. Or maybe that whole 'dryad hussy' joke was more than just abstract wackiness and she really has been Shelan all along.

I want others' opinions on this, though; I'd really like to know I'm wrong, actually.

[Teatime]

What does 'shelan' mean...?

[Ave]

Five murders?
I agree she is ignorant, but please list those missed murders.

[Swordlol]

Celia deserves some character development in my opinion.

To above poster, he is talking about when she was walking in the city, and the guy talked about killing his wife (and his mother if I recall correctly) and all the other crimes going around her.

[teratorn]

What does 'shelan' mean...?

She-Elan...

[FujinAkari]

chose to recast a hard-luck but cunning defense attorney with a fair capablility for cynicism into a nagging, bratty airhead who failed to notice five murders within arms' reach of her, one of which was all but clearly admitted to her. An attorney. In law school. Where they probably offer Murderonomy 301.

Ok, this is almost so unrelated to be offensive.

Yes, Celia was shown as down-to-earth, cunning, and resourceful until now. She was also always shown in her element until now. A law student knowing what to do in a trial? Duh.

You taking that expertise and expecting it to translate into battlefield knowledge is like expecting a lawyer enter into and excel in a gun fight just because he's explained the logistics of marksmenship in a trial once.

Sorry... no.

And why would being in law school let Celia identify crimes any better than anyone else? I'm fairly sure Lawyers don't accompany police to crime scenes, nor do they collect any evidence, so identification of crimes in progress seems very far beyond the scope of anything Celia might have studied.

In short... no... I think you are very much over-reacting. You want Celia to be a Mary Sue and be arbitrarily good in everything, and are mad that Rich is too good an author to have her excel at things which she should have no knowledge of.

[krossbow]

She's not so much stupid as arrogant.


She knows that in a civilized state, she'd have this guys ass on a platter. She could sue him down to nothing, (see her comment about emotional distress), and the town guards would never let him get away with it.
Hence, she goes in assuming that he's talking about ressurecting roy since buying people to make golems is illegal in a lawful state (unless its lawful evil), and doesn't consider the other options.

The problem is this ISN'T a civilized state, its a dangerous, lawless jungle. She's so used to dealing with more well off, safer districts, where law reigns, that she can't fathom the situation.


In short, she's classic lawful being thrown into all out chaotic.

[Admiral_Kelly]

I agree with the original poster (except... there were not five murders). Celia is not the same character as the one we last saw. I find this change equally annoying. Her stupidity lies in her extreme naive behavior; no understanding of humans; bringing Roy's body to a man who may as well be waving a big sign saying 'Hey! I'm a Necromancer!1; and being a general airhead. She expressed none of this before this story arc.

Character derailment at its worst.

1 - I hear you DnD nerds saying 'technically he was not using necromancy' but it effectively is necromancy.

[Sarcose]

The point here is that she's a damned good lawyer, and lawyers aren't damned good because they just know the law, they're damned good because they are attentive, empathetic and shrewd in all things. They can argue their way out of any situation and turn anything around into being beneficial to them. My grandfather is a lawyer. He certainly doesn't excel at things he was never trained at but he is capable of observing them analytically like any logician should be able to.

Perhaps the idea is that Celia is still a little girl and she's not capable of this kind of deep thought analysis during a real crisis such as the skeleton of her boyfriend is trying to kill her. Keep in mind that good authors keep their readers on a rollercoaster of opinions about the characters in the story. You are supposed to both like and dislike every character at some point in the story, and at this point Celia might be ditzing out and showing her primary character flaw. After a few more strips she might sieve back into the levelheaded law-minded attorney we expect her to be after collecting her wits and provide an ample explanation for her behavior at the moment.

Have more faith in Rich, but you're still right, at this moment this is out of character for someone who is supposed to be an analytically minded logician.

[FujinAkari]

Have more faith in Rich, but you're still right, at this moment this is out of character for someone who is supposed to be an analytically minded logician.

Is she supposed to be that?

We've only seen her caught by surprised and thrust out of a situtation she understood twice... and both times her response was to believe what she was told of the situation, and then to grow violent and hurl lightning about in a fit when she found out the truth... ((I refer to when Nale told her she had been turned to stone for hundreds of years and that everyone she knew was dead, which she accepted hook, line, and sinker))

Her current actions seem entirely in sync with what we have seen before.

I -don't- think she is supposed to be an analytically minded logician... and I think you may have her confused with Vaarsuvius. Yes, in the court room when she could prepare her argument, she was very logical, but she also knew what was coming.

All that we have seen of Celia shows that she isn't very good at thinking on her feet.

[Oberon]

All that we have seen of Celia shows that she isn't very good at thinking on her feet.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Anyone will seem an idea when out of their element, as she certainly is now.

She has seemed somewhat gullible ever since that nale incident, and I think her behavour is characteristic of many high-int low-wis characters (since this is dnd after all).

[Arbitrarity]

Also, she's not an adventurer. I keep thinking of this in a gamist mindset, and Celia looks like an idiot, as Haley thinks. But really, she's like a civilian, or a commoner here. She doesn't fight, steal, memorize important facts about monsters, expect treachery, etc. It's like bringing a high schooler into an adventure, you can't expect them to cope easily.

[Arameus]

Ok, this is almost so unrelated to be offensive.

Yes, Celia was shown as down-to-earth, cunning, and resourceful until now. She was also always shown in her element until now. A law student knowing what to do in a trial? Duh.

You taking that expertise and expecting it to translate into battlefield knowledge is like expecting a lawyer enter into and excel in a gun fight just because he's explained the logistics of marksmenship in a trial once.

Sorry... no.

And why would being in law school let Celia identify crimes any better than anyone else? I'm fairly sure Lawyers don't accompany police to crime scenes, nor do they collect any evidence, so identification of crimes in progress seems very far beyond the scope of anything Celia might have studied.

In short... no... I think you are very much over-reacting. You want Celia to be a Mary Sue and be arbitrarily good in everything, and are mad that Rich is too good an author to have her excel at things which she should have no knowledge of.

It's not unrelated, seeing as the abrupt change in characterization is the topic at hand. On the other hand, you seem to be getting a bit defense and becasue of that a bit rude.

I didn't imply for a second that I thought Celia would or should be of any help at all on a battlefield. In fact, it seems appropriate to me that she would be rather useless, having no experience and just generally being averse to violence. (Side Note: Just thinking of this offhand, but as a guardian of one of Dorukan's seals, wouldn't she have required at least a small bit of fighting prowess? It seemed to me, especially taking into account one of the other guradians' reaction to the evil characters, that they were expected to defend the sigils forcefully if needs be. Maybe Dorukan was just hinging on her innate Sylvan powers to be enough, but he seemed smarter than that for the most part.) If anything, she's really surprised me with her usefulness; blowing down a door and a stone bridge with lighting from her hands is really, really powerful, a lot more powerful than I would ever have expected her to be, but on the other hand I don't know much about D&D creatures.

On the other hand, her actions before Dahlia killed her and her wit really made me think of her as having a sharp, agile mind plus a good bit of worldliness. I also thought of her feelings for Roy very differently than she's showing now; when Roy made his comment about 'mutual lust,' I took it that that was a much bigger part of it than suddenly developing a liking for each other. After all, they had met twice and now they're getting rowdy anights. That seems like it takes a bit less of a 'dancing-in-a-field-of-tulips'-type character than she's being portrayed as now. (Side note: I think now Roy may be in it mainly for the booty, but maybe she was being played much more 'lovestruck young lady,' which would mean she really did have tender affection for Roy so soon after making his acquaintance even if he really doesn't. This could actually get really interesting if these motivations ever come into conflict.)

Having a knowledge of the law, though, really should have helped her in Greysky(sp?) City. In law school, I'm fairly certain you have to do case studies that educate you on a broad range of circumstances, charges, and processes for the entire gamut of crime, situation, and punishment. Often along the line, you hear about some pretty sick stuff. She's probably studied rape and serial murder and embedded crime rings and, given her setting, probably even necromancy-for-hire. (Seems like one of the things you might actually run into quite often, come to think of it. As Xykon put it, it's cheaper than hiring people, but I'm paraphrasing.) This kind of intimate knowledge actually burns out or embitters many potential attorneys, especially once they start having to defend these people in court, which Celia as she is presented now probably won't be able to handle.

The point is that she is aware of crime and corruption, probably to a greater degree than a layperson, though not to the extent of an adventurer or a policeman. But when she enters Greysky, after having been explicitly warned beforehand by Haley that it is a violent and terrible place where atrocities are commited outright, she completely ignores numerous simultaneous crimes that she should really know, for a number of reasons, to watch out for. The entire joke for the strip(s) is that the explicit villainy around her is so blatant and overpowering and she just doesn't seem to notice at all. That kind of cluelessness just doesn't seem to correspond with what we know about her nor what we have seen demonstrated in her character up to this point.

The other big point is pushing her pacifism so completely upon the other characters. When she got all high and mighty the first time about it, I really thought to myself, "Just what is it you think your boyfriend does, again? Make shoes? Cook? Stand-up comedy?" But rather than adapt to her situation and let the adventurers handle it, or perhaps even recognize how pathetic she's being in light of the crushing tyranny of Xykon, she tries to puch her ideals on the group and serves as a major hindrance instead. Does she even get that the meeting she was supposedly moderating in Azure was to set up a unified resistance and incite the violent overthrow of the despotic regime and, likely, the subjugation and execution of all the hobgoblins? It really seems to me that she's either too dumb to really fathom anything she's not currently in the same room with, or she just doesn't really care about violence if she doesn't have to look at it, both of which are very unlikeable traits even if played for laughs.

And, of course, it really doesn't seem in line with how she was before, since I recall her demonstrating herself quite capable of violence against other living things; remeber her zapping Nale and Thog? Can you adjust the power on those lighting blasts? It seems like you realistically could, but in D&D it seems like you couldn't; you can't cast a tiny Fireball to singe someone's eyebrows, after all. And if she's blasting two tied-up prisoners with a force that can knock out a solid stone bridge or a fortified wooden gate in one shot, for no greater reason that that she's miffed at them, then her former portrayal and her current portrayal, which will not condone even nonlethal force against creatures that actively want to kill them, simply do not jibe well. Either that or she's a huge hypocrite, which is pretty unlikable in itself.

All in all, I can't conceive of how anyone can get off saying that I want Celia to be a Mary Sue. I used to perceive her as much more of an adult, and, relative to her interpretation now, a more mature character. As it stands now, though, she seems to have been changed from a good, complex character into a Mary Sue, a snow-white unspoilt daisy thrust into a bad situation with the mean, grimy adventurers. She is now, at worst, an idiot savant on a soapbox, whose only identifiable flaw is that she's too good a person to get by without help.

Furthermore, the insinuation that I 'don't trust the author' is pretty insulting and is just setting up a scarecrow. I've been reading this comic a long, long, time now, and if I'm ever upset with something, it's not because I think he's a hack or he's lost his touch; rather, it's because I've become so expectant of top-grade material that anything cheesy or jarring seems out of place. I am not the heathen that does not comprehend your deity. Mistakes are possible even in OotS and even by Rich and, in my opinion, this is one of few, but a disappointing one. It is, at best, a case of the author saying 'Well, I never said she WAS, but I never said she WASN'T either.' Which is not appreciated, ever, ever. At worst, it's just sloppily-warped character portrayal, of which Rich, as a human being, is capable, believe it or not, a fact that makes the reflexive counterargument 'You just don't get it' pretty unreliable, although the minimum of effort it requires is admittedly convenient.

Of course, those of you that like Dahlia aren't going to be moved one way or the other, and those of you that don't don't even need to hear any of this; It's E. A. Poe-Grade 'setting myself up for failure,' but it needed sezzing so I sez it.

[Tirian]

Also, she's not an adventurer. I keep thinking of this in a gamist mindset, and Celia looks like an idiot, as Haley thinks. But really, she's like a civilian, or a commoner here. She doesn't fight, steal, memorize important facts about monsters, expect treachery, etc. It's like bringing a high schooler into an adventure, you can't expect them to cope easily.

I acknowledge that she is going to be a weak link in the party in many circumstances. But not appreciating the diversity of revival techniques in the world and accepting a contract from someone who failed a Sense Motive check before understanding the fine print are exactly the sorts of things that would be hammered out of anyone who graduated from law school. Negotiating contracts on behalf of her clients is precisely "her element", and she is demonstrating an alarming lack of diligence.

But it's okay because this is a humor comic and punchlines always win out against consistent characterization.

[SPoD]

anyone who graduated from law school.

Celia has not graduated law school. Celia is in law school right now. Celia is, in fact, a first year law student, because she didn't start until after she met the OOTS. She has simply not had all of the training many people are ascribing to her.

Hell, remember that she didn't even win the trial--it was fixed! We have no evidence as to whether she is even good at lawyering, therefore. She has taken maybe 10 or 12 courses, that's it. Expecting her to have some sort of innate sixth sense for criminal activity is like expecting a first year pre-med student to perform a heart transplant.

[David Argall]

I side with the Celia is "realistic" school... She appears to have been in protected environments almost her entire life up until now. That she has a very ivory tower attitude is not at all unreasonable.



as a guardian of one of Dorukan's seals, wouldn't she have required at least a small bit of fighting prowess? It seemed to me, especially taking into account one of the other guradians' reaction to the evil characters, that they were expected to defend the sigils forcefully if needs be.
Each of the "guardians" was apparently entirely lacking arms and armor. When faced with an evil candidate, each started mindlessly reciting a script meant for the arrival of a good, and each was taken by surprise and quickly dispatched.
In other words, they were harmless welcomes, guardians only in title and making no attempt to test those coming in. Quite possibly they did nothing but go-fer work, being teleported to their positions when candidates started after the gates.

As noted, her next action is to totally fall for Nale's silly story. It is easy to over-criticize her on the point, but there were several clues to show Nale was lying.


On the other hand, her actions before Dahlia killed her and her wit really made me think of her as having a sharp, agile mind plus a good bit of worldliness.
We see the sharp agile mind. For example Celia sees in a day that sitting around waiting to be contacted is not working, something that Haley doesn't see in months. [Mind you, I think Haley should have seen that, but that is not at issue here.]
But where do we see the worldiness? Consistently, she shows an inability to really deal with violence and a determination to hope it doesn't happen and insist it isn't necessary.



I also thought of her feelings for Roy very differently than she's showing now; when Roy made his comment about 'mutual lust,' I took it that that was a much bigger part of it than suddenly developing a liking for each other. After all, they had met twice and now they're getting rowdy anights. That seems like it takes a bit less of a 'dancing-in-a-field-of-tulips'-type character than she's being portrayed as now.
Celia is shown as a girl on the rebound. Having caught her boyfriend doing the unacceptable [and probably slipping the wood to the other woman was a greater sin than if he had been slipping the wood to her.], it's hardly unusual for such a lass to jump into the bed of the next lad that is even vaguely acceptable and tell herself that this time it is permanent. She hasn't had time to find out that Roy has faults and so is confusing love and lust. So she is quite willing to do love-related acts, whether or not she is in more than lust.


Having a knowledge of the law, though, really should have helped her in Greysky(sp?) City. In law school, I'm fairly certain you have to do case studies that educate you on a broad range of circumstances, charges, and processes for the entire gamut of crime, situation, and punishment. Often along the line, you hear about some pretty sick stuff.
But that is the point. She has only heard about it. She still has problems understanding that that guy with the knife is willing to poke it into her.


This kind of intimate knowledge actually burns out or embitters many potential attorneys, especially once they start having to defend these people in court, which Celia as she is presented now probably won't be able to handle.
This argument seems to argue that Celia-level innocence is by no means unknown in law schools.


But rather than adapt to her situation and let the adventurers handle it, or perhaps even recognize how pathetic she's being in light of the crushing tyranny of Xykon, she tries to puch her ideals on the group and serves as a major hindrance instead.
Hardly an unusual reaction. The alternative involves admitting you have been wrong and are a mere newbie. Much easier to insist you are right and the expert. At least easier until you step into the bear trap.



I recall her demonstrating herself quite capable of violence against other living things; remeber her zapping Nale and Thog? she's blasting two tied-up prisoners with a force that can knock out a solid stone bridge or a fortified wooden gate in one shot, for no greater reason that that she's miffed at them, then her former portrayal and her current portrayal, which will not condone even nonlethal force against creatures that actively want to kill them, simply do not jibe well. Either that or she's a huge hypocrite, which is pretty unlikable in itself.
Everybody tends to think that one's own sins are much less serious than the same sin by others. However, Celia had good reason to assume her attack would not be lethal, which is how it turned out. She gives out 7d6 [save for half] and since the party has gotten by the monster, and hit her with flesh to stone [suggesting 11th level], she is pretty safe in thinking she is not going to kill them. [To use 4e, she is likely correct in thinking she won't even bloody them.]


All in all, I can't conceive of how anyone can get off saying that I want Celia to be a Mary Sue. she seems to have been changed from a good, complex character into a Mary Sue, a snow-white unspoilt daisy thrust into a bad situation with the mean, grimy adventurers. She is now, at worst, an idiot savant on a soapbox, whose only identifiable flaw is that she's too good a person to get by without help.

Mary Sue is defined as "always winning/the most skilled...". So wanting her to handle Greysky city is tending to put her in Mary Sue territory. She is in no danger of becoming a Mary Sue if she falls on her face.

[Dire Platypus]

Also, she's not an adventurer. I keep thinking of this in a gamist mindset, and Celia looks like an idiot, as Haley thinks. But really, she's like a civilian, or a commoner here. She doesn't fight, steal, memorize important facts about monsters, expect treachery, etc. It's like bringing a high schooler into an adventure, you can't expect them to cope easily.

Spoke the simple truth in such a great way I had to quote!

She read some Law books.Ok.
But:
That doesn't teach how to go out for a quest!

[factotum]

Celia has not graduated law school. Celia is in law school right now. Celia is, in fact, a first year law student, because she didn't start until after she met the OOTS. She has simply not had all of the training many people are ascribing to her.


Quoted for truth. Also, this idea that lawyers need to know lots about the real world--it's bunkum. Lawyers need to know lots about the law and legal loopholes, which often bear little relation to the real world of crime. (Don't forget that lawyers are expected to defend people who are pretty clearly guilty and do so to the best of their ability, which implies a level of detachment from the reality of crime).

[Ironwolf172]

I swear they should call Celia 'Shelan.' I always really liked her character before this arc. Perhaps it's because she simply didn't have as much chance to show it before, but her whole hippy-dippy side and retard-level naivete seem to have been ass-pulled entirely from the moment she gets summoned to Azure City by the talisman, for no other purpose than to act as a foil to Haley's role as the savvy veteran and Belkar's role as the violent lunatic.

Like I said, this could probably just be waved away by saying she never had a chance to show this side before, but I for one think that the talisman actually summoned Celia's twin sister Dahlia, an escaped psycopath who murdered her sister in an attempt to take over her life. I really wonder how long it will be before something triggers a dangerous episode in Dahlia's warped mind and she starts trying to kill off the main party one at a time.

I mean, unlikely? Yeah, but it seems like a far more appealing explanation than that Rich, a heretofore exemplary writer, chose to recast a hard-luck but cunning defense attorney with a fair capablility for cynicism into a nagging, bratty airhead who failed to notice five murders within arms' reach of her, one of which was all but clearly admitted to her. An attorney. In law school. Where they probably offer Murderonomy 301.

Even if this change works for the strip where it is right now, it just strikes me as too harsh a change to stomach, especially since I liked the character up to this point and now she just inspires bile. Or maybe that whole 'dryad hussy' joke was more than just abstract wackiness and she really has been Shelan all along.

I want others' opinions on this, though; I'd really like to know I'm wrong, actually.

Wow that's a harsh and exaggeratted view of Celia. She really only did one thing wrong- take matters into her own hands and take Roy into Greysky City.
From there she did a lot of things right ex. break the bridge and the door. Going into the city also allowed for Haley to get enough money for a ressurection spell.

You call Celia stupid- She doesn't know about humans because how can you if you don't grow up around them and they don't even have an entry in the Monster's Manual. Also it never says what the CAN'T do in the PH.

She isn't really an airhead. As she walks through Greysky city there is a good chance she knows that the murders are happening but she doesn't want to know. All she wants to know is that there may be a cleric in the city and thus a chance of raising Roy. That is why she ignored the creepy castle, odd assistant, and bones everywhere. She WANTS to think everything is fine because she is DESPERATE to raise Roy.

[Kaytara]

Celia has not graduated law school. Celia is in law school right now. Celia is, in fact, a first year law student, because she didn't start until after she met the OOTS. She has simply not had all of the training many people are ascribing to her.

Hell, remember that she didn't even win the trial--it was fixed! We have no evidence as to whether she is even good at lawyering, therefore. She has taken maybe 10 or 12 courses, that's it. Expecting her to have some sort of innate sixth sense for criminal activity is like expecting a first year pre-med student to perform a heart transplant.

Seconded. The impression I got from the comic is that Celia studied for a bit about actual trials, the pro and counter-arguments used, etc., without getting real knowledge about the world of crime.
Besides, as someone already mentioned, even if she was an experienced lawyer, lawyers don't do field work. They aren't cops or detectives, Gather Information probably isn't even a class skill for them. They deal with second-hand information. Just because they have the shrewdness and intelligence to turn and twist arguments in a courtroom doesn't mean they're really all that attentive and perceptive in a criminal environment.
I'll second that Celia has high INT but low WIS. If I recall, Intelligence is exactly the kind of stat she'd need to relatively excel as a lawyer, but Wisdom deals with common sense as well as intuition about the nature and motivations of others. That's exactly what you'd need to assume that some cop getting handed money may actually be getting a bribe, and that's what she lacks.

Also, that first panel where she enters Greysky City was obviously meant to set up a joke. Just because WE can see the various people getting mugged and murdered doesn't necessarily mean SHE is peering left and right into dark alleys, looking for criminal elements. On the street where she's walking, there really IS "hardly anyone here". The only real lapse of judgement we see is her mistaking the motivations of the guy dragging the corpse, which, while hilarious (Rule of Funny), is still believable with her low Wisdom.

[MReav]

I dunno, I agree with the dumbing down complaints... I would think her near-murder at the hands of Nale and crew would have made her a bit more wary at least.

[EvilRoeSlade]

She does stupid things because it's funny. Just like every other normally smart protagonist in the comic. Deal with it.

[Warren Dew]

I would say that Celia is a pretty sharp thinker. She did come up with somewhat reasonable arguments quickly in the trial, even if they weren't what actually won the trial. However, that hasn't changed; when she saw someone else dragging a corpse along, she quickly concluded there could be something useful there for her, even if she ended up being a little mistaken on that as well.

I don't think Celia is particularly observant. She got turned to stone because she was on automatic rather than watching what was going on. I would not expect her to see things going on in dark alleys behind her.

If anything, Celia tends to fit things into her preconception of the world, rather than adjusting her view of the world to match what she sees. Law school seems to have made her more arrogant, but that matches what I've often seen in friends who were law school students.

I would note that there's been one significant development in Celia's character in the current strip. She's become a lot more useful. It was her who allowed everyone to escape by destroying the door, and it was her who cut off the pursuit by breaking the bridge.

[FujinAkari]

I would say that Celia is a pretty sharp thinker. She did come up with somewhat reasonable arguments quickly in the trial, even if they weren't what actually won the trial.

We should note that Celia had her argument planned out before the trial ever began. She never interviewed Roy, but instead simply asked "Was there a lacky or anyone that got away?"

She already -had- that argument planned, so there is really no reason to suspect that he argument was drafted on the spot... maybe the minute details were shifted in, but she clearly had the basic gist of it already planned out, and merely forced the facts of the case to conform to her plan.

Kind of how she's trying to FORCE Greysky City to produce a cleric for her...

[David Argall]

that first panel where she enters Greysky City was obviously meant to set up a joke. Just because WE can see the various people getting mugged and murdered doesn't necessarily mean SHE is peering left and right into dark alleys, looking for criminal elements. On the street where she's walking, there really IS "hardly anyone here".
The joke depends on her being oblivious to the crime. While other versions can depend on her just happening to not see the crime [such as axe murderer sneaking up behind you, but quickly hiding axe every time you turn around], the version used has her seeing the crime, but not understanding it as crime. She may or may not have seen the earlier crimes, but she is assumed to ignore obvious evidence that things are wrong.



The only real lapse of judgement we see is her mistaking the motivations of the guy dragging the corpse,
No, this is typical. This one case is just to make her innocence obvious. But she then shows just as much misunderstanding of the golem maker.



We should note that Celia had her argument planned out before the trial ever began. She never interviewed Roy, but instead simply asked "Was there a lacky or anyone that got away?"

She already -had- that argument planned, so there is really no reason to suspect that he argument was drafted on the spot...
Does not follow. Celia only learns of the gates' purpose with the crayon exposition. In 272, she is arguing that the prosecution had only shown the party had blown up a castle and professes ignorance of any deeper knowledge. So she can't have prepared a defense based on the castle having a purpose she does not know about.

Rather she learns in 278 that there can be acceptable reasons for destroying a gate, and then asks Roy if the offered reason might apply to the case. So yes, she made up the defense on the spot. [Mind you, she may well have not been as clever as she thinks in doing so. Given Shojo's intentions, it is quite possible he was making it as easy as possible for her to think of the idea.]

[Nerdanel]

I think Celia has no points in spot and therefore failed all of her spot checks to notice the crimes occurring around her. Everyone in the OOTS has a horrible spot check too, and they are adventurers. As a civilian Celia would naturally have placed her skill points into something more useful in "real life", like Knowledge (law) and Profession (lawyer).

I really think Celia should have invested more in Sense Motive, though, although perhaps she just rolled badly. She doesn't seem to benefit from a high wisdom either, which would give a bonus to Spot and Sense Motive

[JohnnyPsycho]

I think Celia has no points in spot and therefore failed all of her spot checks to notice the crimes occurring around her. Everyone in the OOTS has a horrible spot check too, and they are adventurers. As a civilian Celia would naturally have placed her skill points into something more useful in "real life", like Knowledge (law) and Profession (lawyer).

I really think Celia should have invested more in Sense Motive, though, although perhaps she just rolled badly. She doesn't seem to benefit from a high wisdom either, which would give a bonus to Spot and Sense Motive

Exactly, and I would go further to say that Celia is an example of a sort of "absent-minded professor" character, someone with high INT and low WIS. She's smart, sure, but that does not translate automatically into real-world knowledge. She's basically the book-worm with a lack of street smarts. The vast majority of my friends are pretty much exactly like this: a wiz in the classroom or the laboratory, but totally helpless in many real-world situations.

I really don't see how people can get upset with this, and see no reason to cry "Character Derailment" when we haven't seen this character stick around in the main storyline this long or be involved in this amount of adventuring...

[Admiral_Kelly]

My issue is, among other things, she's been showing a complete lack of common sense never before seen before this story arc. How is this not character derailment!?

[busterswd]

My issue is, among other things, she's been showing a complete lack of common sense never before seen before this story arc. How is this not character derailment!?

You've never actually seen her in a real world combat/stressful situation, essentially. In Dorukan's, she was easily turned into stone, and aside from getting destoned and essentially fleeing, that's all you saw of her. During the trial, she was as other people are saying, "in her element." It was a controlled environment with time to plan things out and something she's at least training for. But past that, even while escaping Azure City, she's shown a basic annoying naievete towards many things unrelated to law. She may be intelligent, but that doesn't translate to common sense or ability to think on your feet, especially in the context of DnD.

[ColonelFuster]

I'm just happy to see more of Celia. Right? >_> I mean, why can't we all just agree on the fact that it's cool to have her along for the ride, even if her ranks in proffesion(barrister) (or Ride) aren't part of the current storyline?

[JohnnyPsycho]

I'm just happy to see more of Celia. Right? >_> I mean, why can't we all just agree on the fact that it's cool to have her along for the ride, even if her ranks in proffesion(barrister) (or Ride) aren't part of the current storyline?

Oh... I see what you did there...:smallamused:

[Admiral_Kelly]

You've never actually seen her in a real world combat/stressful situation, essentially. In Dorukan's, she was easily turned into stone, and aside from getting destoned and essentially fleeing, that's all you saw of her. During the trial, she was as other people are saying, "in her element." It was a controlled environment with time to plan things out and something she's at least training for. But past that, even while escaping Azure City, she's shown a basic annoying naievete towards many things unrelated to law. She may be intelligent, but that doesn't translate to common sense or ability to think on your feet, especially in the context of DnD.I'm confused. Common sense needs to be prepared ahead of time? Common sense only works within a certain environment? Either you have it or you do not.

[ericgrau]

Celia has not graduated law school. Celia is in law school right now. Celia is, in fact, a first year law student, because she didn't start until after she met the OOTS. She has simply not had all of the training many people are ascribing to her.

Hell, remember that she didn't even win the trial--it was fixed! We have no evidence as to whether she is even good at lawyering, therefore. She has taken maybe 10 or 12 courses, that's it. Expecting her to have some sort of innate sixth sense for criminal activity is like expecting a first year pre-med student to perform a heart transplant.

According to the Haley-translated thread, Haley is pretty sure about exactly how that trial should have turned out. Or at least how it should have turned out best-case scenario. Due to mitigating circumstances, they should have been convicted but given a light sentance.

During that same trial she was half-jokingly described as having a knack for being a lawyer, since she focused on a technicality. Not bad for a beginner, but I don't think that makes her street smart.

Her current attitude seems to fit well with her former naivity about the world around her. Being a good student and, heck, maybe some other girl-growing-up stereotypes, or even real-world-contrasted-with-dnd ideas likewise fit. Nah, I'd say this, the shock at seeing people die and everything else is fairly in character.

If she seems to be displaying an annoying lack of competence in a business that involves killing, I think that's the whole point. When do you expect killing to be going on around you? Heck, I heard a scream somewhere outside this morning and dismissed it because I know it just can't be serious. If you find Celia's lack of competence in this area unbearable, then just hold out until the group gets back into a decent civilization.

[busterswd]

I'm confused. Common sense needs to be prepared ahead of time? Common sense only works within a certain environment? Either you have it or you do not.

Let me put it this way: if you have never received military training, and then are given a gun and airlifted into a hostile area, common sense will not suddenly make you an expert soldier, or even know what to keep an eye out for. There are things you are trained to look out for that you would not even think about in average day to day life. I think the best example was two of my military friends walking into a theatre with me and discussing how every time they walked into an area like that, by instinct, they identified all the potential vantage points for a shooter and where they could best find cover. Me? I just saw a balcony above us that was more seats for patrons.

She may be quite practical in social and work related situations, but that doesn't mean she'll be quite as competent or observant in a crime laden environment.

Edit: Also don't forget, this is DnD, where a failed dice roll can have you behaving in incredibly implausible ways, ie: the scene where Belkar laments his doom right in front of an exit.

[FujinAkari]

I'm confused. Common sense needs to be prepared ahead of time? Common sense only works within a certain environment? Either you have it or you do not.

No, but common sense does not cover what you are trying to force it to cover.

If I enter a strange, new city, and I see a man dragging a bloody corpse past a Police Officer and the Officer doesn't care, my gut response (because of common sense!) is that this city expects the family to dispose of the remains of loved ones, and that since the officer does not object to the scene, there must not be anything unlawful about it.

Only a cynical mindset would assume that the cop must be crooked, but in order to have such a mindset, your initial view of the world as a good and righteous world must be called into question, which Celia hasn't had. Thus far, every setback has been temporary. Turned to stone? She got cured! Boyfriend on trial? He was innocent! Boyfriend dead? Find a cleric!

Celia has no reason to suspect foul play, and so she doesn't. It isn't common sense that cops are crooked, it is something that must be learned... and she hasn't.

[Admiral_Kelly]

I agree with the original poster (except... there were not five murders). Celia is not the same character as the one we last saw. I find this change equally annoying. Her stupidity lies in her extreme naive behavior; no understanding of humans; bringing Roy's body to a man who may as well be waving a big sign saying 'Hey! I'm a Necromancer!1; and being a general airhead. She expressed none of this before this story arc.

Character derailment at its worst.

1 - I hear you DnD nerds saying 'technically he was not using necromancy' but it effectively is necromancy.Don'tcha hate it when you have to quote yourself? Please explain the above to me, especially the italicized part and tell me that is not a lack of basic common sense anyone who has ever read any form of fantasy fiction or lives in a world based on fantasy fiction should know.

[Arameus]

There's a rumor going around that I think Celia should be skilled in combat. I never stated anything of the sort. I speculated briefly about the outside possibilty of her having a slight grain of basic combat knowledge based only on the speculation that, since one of the other sylphs was preparing, however unsuccessfully, to repel evil intruders with force, leading me to posit that she, charged with the same duty, would be expected to fill the same role by Dorukan and, therefore, also be expected to handle such a task with at least minimal competence. But even that speculation was not to purport that I believe she has any martial prowess, which I do not believe and would argue against, but rather to speculate that she has not always had an inviolate code of pacifism because, among other things, she took a job she knew might require violent defense of something. By my own admission, that's a long train of thought (though not really as long as the explanation would suggest), but it makes sense to me and seems reasonable.

Another thing I take issue with is the idea that she isn't qualified to deal with or even comprehend situations like blatant murder and a necromancer's lab-castle. Now, I fully acknowledge that she can not be expected fly in (well, she actually could fly in, but, well, you know what I mean) and magically fix any of these situations (although it stands to reason that if she does fix them, it would be magically... am I counterarguing myself too much?), but that is not the issue I take with her character and therefore I have no reason to argue something we agree upon.

What I did take issue with is that to act the way that she acts and feel the way that she feels, she exhibits a level of ignorance that she has not only never demonstrated before but, in fact, no character has exhibited before, with the exception of Elan, and even he can get by due to his bardly genre-savviness. Expecting Celia to mishandle such situations and fail is reasonable and logical, but to purport that she would be entirely ignorant of the situations themselves is really far more insulting to the poor girl than anything I've ever said about her!

Now here's why I say that that's unreasonable: it was said that she trusts the world to be an essentially good place, and that her idealism simply shuts out the possibility of anything but the situations an essentially good world would produce. That's illogical for a few reasons. First, sylphs, as the OotS world posits them, have a society that parallels our own. They are not the same as us, exactly, but their lives would seem to be very similar to our own; just look at how her life actually progresses. She is, but for the exceptions caused by her mystic nature, identical to an average human of her age and social status and is just trying to settle into her life and live as a normal person would, human or sylph, in a society like ours. That's important because it makes the idea that she is completely unfamiliar with the seedier side of life--violence, poverty, corruption--unbelievable unless she's just soft in the head. She isn't an angel descending from a plane where immorality is an unobserved and alien quality; she's just a foreigner, in essence. After all, she's probably becoming a lawyer, if her own essential goodness is to be believed, precisely because she is aware of these dark aspects of society, both ours and her own, and wants to take part in the justice system that addresses them. (Which would work even better for a prosecutor, but still works for a defense counsel.)

Now, we know two things that must, must therefore be true of her before she enters Greysky: 1.) She knows that murder and treachery can and do occur, in a general sense. 2.) She knows, in a more specific sense, because she was told by Haley very, very, clearly, that murder and treachery happen in Greysky City in particular, often and for little to no reason.

Now, if I'm in my backyard and I hear a gunshot, I don't immediately assume, or assume at all, that someone's been shot to death. It's probably just deer season. In that sense, yes, it is reasonable, as someone pointed out, that Celia might not immediately assume murder when she sees (at least) one person being dragged around with a dagger sticking out of them, but that's really, really stretching the bounds of the point your trying to make with your illustration already, and it doesn't handle the logical extension. If you don't assume violence in a nonviolent place, it makes sense you would assume violence in a place you know to be ultraviolent. It's why teenage girls don't travel alone on foot at 2 AM through alleys. Going back to my own illustration, if I were to hear a shotgun blast in somewhere beside my backyard, let's say Oakland or East St. Louis, places I know to be very dangerous, I could immediately conclude violence. I say I would because it's happened and I have thought that; I was right, and a guy had been shot to death, it turned out. Celia should know enough more than enough by now to make the immediate, incontrovertible conclusion of murder. Ignorance has, by the Giant's own doing, been driven right out of the question at this point. And if she can't feign ignorance, then she's just being really, really dumb.

Now, in my mind, the question becomes, "Has she always been dumb?" My thought would be 'No.' It seems more likely to me that she was simply made dumb because it allows her to fill a specific role in the party as it stands currently. It works, and if she had always been this way, my thought would be "Ooh, they have to travel with her! Hahaha!" and not, as it is, "Who the hell is this person...?"

I am not arguing whether or not a dumb character can be a good character; of course they can, and it's foolish to plead otherwise, which is why I don't. Some of you neede to read that sentence two or three more times so it really sinks in. I am not saying her character is bad because she is less than perfect. If I thought that, I would not read this comic at all: Roy's got a suicidal hero complex, Belkar's insane and evil, Haley's greedy and conniving, V is a cold-hearted, selfish bastard, &c, &c, &c. I do not have a chip on my shoulder about characters' flaws. But I do have a problem with lobotomizing a character for fairly shallow reasons. The immediate gratification of the foil is outweighed by the integrity of the writing and the stellar quality the narrative seldom fails to exhibit.

I see it as such a derailment because every attempt to point out what has now become an overpowering quality in Celia, being extremely dense, as something that has truly been in her character all along, have all been fairly weak and seem more like a defense for defense's sake. Slight, limited, perfectly understandable instances of Celia failing to exhibit omniscience are being cited as evidence that she has always been glacially-witted. This doesn't work, and I'll illustrate why. Last week, my father misplaced his keys. He could not find them for quite a long time. Not a bright moment, but hey, I;ve done it too. I think most of us can admit to it. But if he were to suddenly start forgetting many things, like what he was doing, or that he had left dinner on the stove, or that he has to write a sermon for next week, or my name, I would not search back through his actions in the past and think "I remember him losing his keys that one week, and one time he forgot to pick me up from the doctor's office... This is normal behavior. Nothing is wrong. He's always been like this." No, I have more sense than that, and I'd recognize, because I have a brain in my skull, that he was showing signs of Alzheimer's and needed help. In the same way, it is just denial to retroactively ascribe these new qualities to Celia because they were once or twice only somewhat applicable. That's grasping at straws. That's pretty weak.

Although, to state once again, it's not like anything ever said anywhere on the Internet has ever swayed anyone from their original stance, and I don't really think I'll be the visionary who pioneers such a technique. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that there are, in fact, two sides to this equation and it's not just me versus the venom of everyone else.

[Spiky]

Why does everyone think lawyers are geniuses? Their job consists of lots of research and tricking people into saying exactly what they want. I'm not saying that makes them idiots, but get over it, people.

[Admiral_Kelly]

*claps at Arameus's last post* Well said. And before any further counter-arguments are made, please read through what he posted as to prevent further wild accusations like some Celia-defenders have been throwing.

[FujinAkari]

Don'tcha hate it when you have to quote yourself? Please explain the above to me, especially the italicized part and tell me that is not a lack of basic common sense anyone who has ever read any form of fantasy fiction or lives in a world based on fantasy fiction should know.

Well... seeing as your ENTIRE QUOTE is italicised... I'm not sure what you refer... but I'll guess.

If she's supposed to somehow magically know about humans... why? They aren't even in the MM. She -tried- to understand humans and found the resources unavailable. What more should she do?

If she's supposed guess that guy was a necromancer... she did!. She point blank made him assure her that he wasn't going to turn Roy into any sort of undead. What more do you want from the poor girl?

If she's supposed to stop being dense... no, a character having knowledge that she shouldn't have is bad writing. Rich doesn't do that. She's going to be dense about evil societies, as she's never encountered one before.

[The Extinguisher]

I don't see it. We haven't had enough time to develop her character before hand, but honestly, she still seems to behave similarly.

[Admiral_Kelly]

If she's supposed to somehow magically know about humans... why? They aren't even in the MM. She -tried- to understand humans and found the resources unavailable. What more should she do?Anyone with half a brain (or who is currently doing well in law school as lawyers may not be geniuses, but they are not idiots) would know that.

If she's supposed guess that guy was a necromancer... she did!. She point blank made him assure her that he wasn't going to turn Roy into any sort of undead. What more do you want from the poor girl?Okay, so she figures out he is a necromancer - but she cannot figure out he is obviously not to be trusted?
If she's supposed to stop being dense... no, a character having knowledge that she shouldn't have is bad writing. Rich doesn't do that. She's going to be dense about evil societies, as she's never encountered one before.This is not a case where a character should not have knowledge of something; but the exact opposite.

[FujinAkari]

Anyone with half a brain (or who is currently doing well in law school as lawyers may not be geniuses, but they are not idiots) would know that.

Would know WHAT?!? What exactly is your argument?


Okay, so she figures out he is a necromancer - but she cannot figure out he is obviously not to be trusted?

Why wouldn't he be trusted? He is an accepted and profitable businessman whom has just entered into a verbal contract that he will not raise Roy as any type of undead. He seems very trustworthy to anyone with half a brain (See? I can insult you too *rolleyes*)


This is not a case where a character should not have knowledge of something; but the exact opposite.

And what knowledge should she have? I'm still waiting for you to actually define your argument.

[brilliantlight]

I agree with the original poster (except... there were not five murders). Celia is not the same character as the one we last saw. I find this change equally annoying. Her stupidity lies in her extreme naive behavior; no understanding of humans; bringing Roy's body to a man who may as well be waving a big sign saying 'Hey! I'm a Necromancer!1; and being a general airhead. She expressed none of this before this story arc.

Character derailment at its worst.

1 - I hear you DnD nerds saying 'technically he was not using necromancy' but it effectively is necromancy.

I agree, you can't pass law school if you are a complete idiot and any 6th grader could have seen that Greysky City is a violent slum that you do not want to get anywhere near and that none of the residents can be fully trusted until you know them a while.

[Fish]

There's a simple explanation: Rich isn't a novelist.

I don't denigrate his ability to write, play D&D, draw, or pace a joke, but look at the difference between novels and web comics.

Web comics are written piecemeal; as soon as you post a segment, it becomes canon. That constrains what you are later able to do. Celia was a one-joke character that was written in — a sylph guarding the air sigil. Her role was simply to get turned to stone and land on someone, then help the OOTS escape. I seriously doubt if he ever intended for her to be more than that, because at that time, Miko was intended to be the love interest!

By the time Rich realized that Miko wouldn't work as a love interest, when it became clear that Roy and Miko got along like oil and water, it was too late to change the past. Rather than rewrite all the plans for the future, he cast around looking for a way to fill the gap. He found Celia, one of the few female characters already in existence. Celia was handy; he used her.

He did not plan for Celia to be a major character. It just happened.

Did he plan for Roy to get golemized, for Haley to return to the city, and for the current Belkar-is-sick, Haley-is-leader, Roy-is-dead storyline? I suspect it's possible; he did write "On the Origin of PCs" and Graysky City long before now.

This was to be the bonding-together-between-Celia-and-Roy's-lover bit. I'd be willing to bet that Celia looks out of place here because she wasn't supposed to be here at all. I wonder if it was supposed to be Miko all along.

Of course, if this were a novel, then you could go back and rewrite Celia from the beginning. But it isn't. So what you're seeing here with Celia is the not-quite-fitting bits of what is essentially a first draft.

[FujinAkari]

I speculated briefly about the outside possibilty of her having a slight grain of basic combat knowledge based only on the speculation that, since one of the other sylphs was preparing, however unsuccessfully, to repel evil intruders with force, leading me to posit that she, charged with the same duty, would be expected to fill the same role by Dorukan and, therefore, also be expected to handle such a task with at least minimal competence.

She casts spells as a 6th level Sorcerer, which is roughly the same level as the party. This is an innate ability of sylphs, however, and does not translate into experience, which is what you were arguing that it did.


But even that speculation was not to purport that I believe she has any martial prowess, which I do not believe and would argue against, but rather to speculate that she has not always had an inviolate code of pacifism because, among other things, she took a job she knew might require violent defense of something.

A good point, except that Celia isn't a pacifist. We have seen on two occasions her willingness to hurl lightning about. What she seems to object to is needless killing. Both the Golems and Nale represented a real threat to her, and had recently tried to kill her. The gnome, the fictional woodland creature that would choke on the chocolate bar, and the hobgoblin border guards were not actively menacing and, indeed, were not committing any crimes outside of their jobs, and so she objected to their needless slaughter.

Celia does not strike me as a pacifist, merely someone who reserves violence for people whom have proven villianous, not merely a tool to be used to solve any and all problems.


Another thing I take issue with is the idea that she isn't qualified to deal with or even comprehend situations like blatant murder and a necromancer's lab-castle. To act the way that she acts and feel the way that she feels, she exhibits a level of ignorance that she has not only never demonstrated before but, in fact, no character has exhibited before, with the exception of Elan, and even he can get by due to his bardly genre-savviness.

True, but then every character (except Sabine) is actually FROM this world. Celia is from an entirely separate plane of existence. She has spent basically her entire life either on the Elemental Plane of Air, within Durokan's dungeon talking to a bird, or in law school (which isn't even confirmed to be upon this plane.) She simply hasn't experienced the real world enough to know the things you are expecting her to know, as evidenced by her assumption that humans could shoot lightning.


Expecting Celia to mishandle such situations and fail is reasonable and logical, but to purport that she would be entirely ignorant of the situations themselves is really far more insulting to the poor girl than anything I've ever said about her!

I don't know why its all that insulting... here, let me ask you this: What is the average temperature of the Elemental Plane of Water? Its a perfectly reasonable question and well known to anyone who lives there (which you don't) so you should naturally know it, right?


She is, but for the exceptions caused by her mystic nature, identical to an average human of her age and social status and is just trying to settle into her life and live as a normal person would, human or sylph, in a society like ours. That's important because it makes the idea that she is completely unfamiliar with the seedier side of life--violence, poverty, corruption--unbelievable unless she's just soft in the head.

Does not follow. Just because she seeks employment doesn't mean her society has criminals. A perfectly lawful good society would still have to feed, clothe, and entertain its citizens, and so the fact that she needs money to live comfortably certainly is no evidence of some deep seedy side of life that she has experienced.


She isn't an angel descending from a plane where immorality is an unobserved and alien quality;

Since the comic has never shown Celia's home, this statement seems like an opinion rather than a fact.


After all, she's probably becoming a lawyer, if her own essential goodness is to be believed, precisely because she is aware of these dark aspects of society, both ours and her own, and wants to take part in the justice system that addresses them. (Which would work even better for a prosecutor, but still works for a defense counsel.)

Considering Azure City's tendency to call upon outsiders for Judicial Matters, it would be entirely reasonable to assume her career path is entirely caused by human society, rather than her own.

Even failing that, the very basis of law is that a society must have a system in place to deal with degenerate elements. A legal system is ill equiped, even unable, to handle the situation where the society itself is unlawful. Celia's gullibility seems largely based on her inability to accept the idea of an entire city being corrupt. Law works on the inherent principle that corruption is the exception, not the rule, and that is the foundation of her understanding of human cities.


Now, we know two things that must, must therefore be true of her before she enters Greysky: 1.) She knows that murder and treachery can and do occur, in a general sense. 2.) She knows, in a more specific sense, because she was told by Haley very, very, clearly, that murder and treachery happen in Greysky City in particular, often and for little to no reason.

Again, knowledge that something can occur does not make one aware that said possibilities can become the rule in a location, rather than the exception. Additionally, Haley said nothing of the sort, Haley specified that people were killed for having gold in their pockets, not for little to no reason.


If you don't assume violence in a nonviolent place, it makes sense you would assume violence in a place you know to be ultraviolent.

Which she doesn't know. There is a -world- of difference between "its dangerous and people get killed." and "ultraviolent where everyone is backstabbed three times a minute." I don't know how Celia is supposed to make this leap, because I sure can't.


Celia should know enough more than enough by now to make the immediate, incontrovertible conclusion of murder. Ignorance has, by the Giant's own doing, been driven right out of the question at this point. And if she can't feign ignorance, then she's just being really, really dumb.

This seems just an opinion. Can you please specify where Celia has ever been in a similar situation? Where she has been in a location where merchents do not honor their word or murders are commonplace? All Celia knows is "people get killed." which describes pretty much ever city thats ever existed. Considering that Haley refused to leave Azure City for pretty much no reason whatsoever, it isn't surprising that Celia doesn't put much stock in her opinion regarding Greysky. Cocky? Yes. Unreasonable? No.

<<snipping the rest of your post because it all seems to depend upon your evidence that Celia is dumb for assuming cities are inherently good, which I don't consider proven.>>

[The Extinguisher]

Miko was never intended for that role. But lets not turn this into a Miko thread. Please.

Yes Celia seems out of place here. Because she is out of place. She is a first year law student. Not an adventurer. Not the magical and omniscient Mary Sue you people want her to be. Not even a full time lawyer.

[Fish]

Miko was never intended for that role. But lets not turn this into a Miko thread. Please.

Yes Celia seems out of place here. Because she is out of place. She is a first year law student. Not an adventurer. Not the magical and omniscient Mary Sue you people want her to be. Not even a full time lawyer.
I am not a fan of Miko; I'm not trying to turn this into a Miko thread. (I think she'll come back, but only because I feel her character arc is only half-finished. She hasn't learned the lesson of humility that would complete her story. End of digression.)

Whenever I see anything in our world, I cannot forget that it was made by something or someone. You simply have to look at how a comic is made to understand why Celia seems out of place here. She was not written for this function, and that's why she doesn't belong. Miko was supposed to be the love interest, and if she were here, she would be doing things differently. Perhaps Roy's body would've been stolen rather than sold; perhaps Miko and Haley would have tried to rescue it rather than run from it. Who knows?

And could you please explain which people particularly want Celia to be an omniscient powerful Mary Sue? Which have said this? When? How did they put it? Because I must have missed the memo.

I don't like Celia either, or the most of the last 100 comics either, by the way. I've already made myself very clear on that in a previous thread — but I won't repeat my arguments here, because everybody will jump on me to say "Rich is a genius, he can do no wrong," etc.

[David Argall]

one of the other sylphs was preparing, however unsuccessfully, to repel evil intruders with force,
51 & 52 both show the Sylph making a welcoming speech, and then being attacked and killed before it is close to finished.



, sylphs, as the OotS world posits them, have a society that parallels our own. ...That's important because it makes the idea that she is completely unfamiliar with the seedier side of life--violence, poverty, corruption--unbelievable unless she's just soft in the head.
We do have such optimists in our society, and in most other societies for that matter. In our society, and presumably her's, she rates as a student who never got out of the classroom and whose only job to date was a very safe office job. She has zero actual experience of crime.


Now, we know two things that must, must therefore be true of her before she enters Greysky: 1.) She knows that murder and treachery can and do occur, in a general sense.
In the general sense. She has no idea how to recognize it and deal with it until it up and bites her. Her peace conference becomes a shambles because she can't recognize there is deep hatred between the groups.


2.) She knows, in a more specific sense, because she was told by Haley very, very, clearly, that murder and treachery happen in Greysky City in particular, often and for little to no reason.
Celia: "Haley told me, sure, but we are talking about the girl who could not see the need to leave Azure City, the bloodthirsty killer who thought it was fine to kill 30 innocent guards until I pointed out this would be self defeating. I managed to save 29 of their lives, and it's Belkar's fault the other died.
"And Haley was just going to let Belkar get away with murder! Even when she tried to punish him, it was absurdly inadequate, and done in a way that was outright dangerous.
"Now just why should I take Haley's word when she has such a dismal record? Remember the alternative is a walk of several hundred miles thru wild country. You can hardly say that was safe."


If you don't assume violence in a nonviolent place, it makes sense you would assume violence in a place you know to be ultraviolent.
But Celia does not assume it to be ultraviolent. [Oh yes, the logic is does not follow. It assumes that there is a relationship between violence and places, which we have no evidence that Celia believes that.]



I do have a problem with lobotomizing a character for fairly shallow reasons.
Celia has not been lobotomized. She has merely been moved out of her area of experteze. Note the current strip, where she doesn't know that lightning heals flesh golems, but is smart enough to figure out that smashing the bridge is a good idea. It's not a matter of the stupids, but the ignorance [and a bit of the crazies].


if he were to suddenly start forgetting many things, like what he was doing, or that he had left dinner on the stove, or that he has to write a sermon for next week, or my name, I would not search back through his actions in the past and think "I remember him losing his keys that one week, and one time he forgot to pick me up from the doctor's office... This is normal behavior. Nothing is wrong. He's always been like this." No, I have more sense than that, and I'd recognize, because I have a brain in my skull, that he was showing signs of Alzheimer's and needed help.
Now there might well be a problem in such a case, but it would not be Alzheimer's. The disease takes years to decades to develop. There is no sudden about it. [When Reagan announced he had it, the only reason the quip "how could they tell?" wasn't everywhere was that it was deemed in bad taste. He had been having memory problems for over a decade.] Possibly a stroke could produce the sudden change, but definitely not Alzheimer's.



In the same way, it is just denial to retroactively ascribe these new qualities to Celia because they were once or twice only somewhat applicable. That's grasping at straws. That's pretty weak.

You haven't said why they are weak.



(See? I can insult you too *rolleyes*)
Then don't. It adds nothing to your argument, and descends to his level.

[JohnnyPsycho]

Mantra, folks. Seriously. Every one of you...

[FujinAkari]

Then don't. It adds nothing to your argument, and descends to his level.

True enough, and you'll notice I only do that once... not out of spite or malice, but out of a genuine hope that he doesn't recognize what he is doing and will improve his argumentative style after my rather blunt comparison

[Kish]

Miko was supposed to be the love interest,
No. She was not. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4390407#post4390407

[Fish]

No. She was not. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4390407#post4390407
Interesting. I had not read that.

Well, then, I have no explanation why Celia is acting the way she is. It seems even more out of character for her.

[Milcho]

Celia may isn't street smart. She seems to know her field - the law, and blowing up inanimate objects with lightning - pretty good. She has been useful, and still may be. At least she can understand and be taught certain things - like lightning heals frankenstein-like golems. She's acting just like anyone else would in her situation - trying to do something good, without having too much knowledge about her surrounding. Almost everyone in OOTS has at one point done that. Comparing her to Elan - who is far more useless and far less intelligent - she is way better - and if you people (the masses) have been able to tolerate Elan for so long, you would be hypocrytical to say that Celia upsets you.

[SoC175]

True, but then every character (except Sabine) is actually FROM this world. Celia is from an entirely separate plane of existence. She has spent basically her entire life either on the Elemental Plane of Air, within Durokan's dungeon talking to a bird, or in law school (which isn't even confirmed to be upon this plane.) She simply hasn't experienced the real world enough to know the things you are expecting her to know, as evidenced by her assumption that humans could shoot lightning.
Except that the elemental plane of Air is not a good plane, as a whole it's neutral.

But it also has it's fair share of evil (evil that pales any evil found on the prime material plane, just ask the air prince of elemental evil). She's also a fey, thus likely to at least know about the quarrel between the seelie and the unseelie courts and about the evil of the unseelie court

Compared to many places on the elemental plane of air or some faerie courts, Greysky City is a very tame place

[busterswd]

Well, then, I have no explanation why Celia is acting the way she is. It seems even more out of character for her.

Let me try to answer this up as succinctly as possible: It's very possible she's acting naive/gullible due to a extreme lack of real world experience on her part, not a lack of intellect. Some knowledge you take for granted is an outright revelation to Celia (humans can't shoot lightning from their fingers?)

[Alchemistmerlin]

I, personally, don't care whether she's a good lawyer or a potato.

I just want her to be a good CHARACTER again. Right now she's just "teehee, I'm such a stupid girl" and is being handled very poorly.

We already have enough lolrandom and duhstupid characters.

Elan fills that role ENTIRELY with no need for anyone else to step up to the plate.

[DigoDragon]

I'm just happy to see more of Celia. Right? >_> I mean, why can't we all just agree on the fact that it's cool to have her along for the ride, even if her ranks in proffesion(barrister) (or Ride) aren't part of the current storyline?

Well I do agree here... Celia is one of my favorite characters. If she's supposed to be nieve now then I can live with it so long as her character does develop and become more knowledgable in adventuring later. :smallsmile:

[kco_501]

I just have to disagree with the people claiming wisdom/ expertise/ knowledge is worth squat when compared to experience...
Imagine Celia as a high-middle class/upper class college freshman who is going for the first time to the shady part of town. She might be warned, she probably has heard about murder, rape , theft and so on but she hasn't seen any. The response of the 3 real life people iknow who were in a similar situation (not that extreme fortunately) was to ignore the hookers, and the thefts, and when they were pointed out to them... they went like "no, that couldn't be so". And all these people weren't dumb, they didn't evem lack common sense..when you have never seen someone pick up a hooker before, probably your common sense would tell that the guy just met his gril, and that girl happened to be in the "less is more fashion".
So sorry, but i have to go with the Celia is actually out of her element group. Believe me, I thought the friends i was out with were unbelievably stupid, but actually they were not...and so is Celia as well... I think you would find Haley just as stupid at a formal social gathering.

[Vulion]

Personally, I think of Celia as a rookie cop. They come into the situation thinking they know whats going on, what will happen and whats the best thing to do. Haley is the veteran cop, frustrated by the rookie's inexperience. Right now Celia is learning about the real world situations that adventurer's go through. I can't honestly find grievous fault in a person that has no real experience in situations that for some reason people expect her to know how to handle. Even if the she has the educations, research and application are two very different things.

[FujinAkari]

Except that the elemental plane of Air is not a good plane, as a whole it's neutral.

But it also has it's fair share of evil (evil that pales any evil found on the prime material plane, just ask the air prince of elemental evil). She's also a fey, thus likely to at least know about the quarrel between the seelie and the unseelie courts and about the evil of the unseelie court

Compared to many places on the elemental plane of air or some faerie courts, Greysky City is a very tame place

We have no evidence that any of these things even exist in Rich's world. We know that Rich has changed Sylph's considerably from their MM foundations (or, more accurately, that he has combined their 3.0 and 3.5 statblocks).

We don't know the society that Celia comes from, but considering her absolute level of inexperience with crime and corruption, claiming she is well versed in it becomes a determination to avoid the obvious.

Additionally, Celia is not a fey, she's an Outsider [Air]. This is confirmed in the trial when she refers to herself as a Paraelemental.

Maybe the elemental plane of air isn't as corrupt as normal... or maybe Celia didn't grow up there but instead grew up in the mountains with her mother and never moved out until she got the job at Durokan's dungeon... who knows?

The fact remains that her actions suggest a person who has no experience with crime, certainly not on a grand scale. If you want to contest that, you'll need something from the comic itself rather than mere speculation.

[Admiral_Kelly]

I am through arguing with this. You Celiaites cannot admit her character has drastically changed without any form of development despite how obvious it is. Maybe you like the new Celia, that is fine. But she still changed, and all these, quite frankly, highly unintelligent arguments you have made do not add up.
see? I can insult you tooI wasn't insulting anyone except maybe Celia who is a fictional character. An insult would be something like, "Hey so-n-so, if you are accusing someone of sinking down to my level maybe you should ascend to mine first!" but I wouldn't sink to that level.

This is my last post in the battle of gibberish which broke down due to adamant Celia supporters missing the opponents' valid points.

[NENAD]

How many of you know whether or not, say, transylvania is a well developed area or not? How many of you would know your way around a bazaar in Turkey? Or Israel? Heck, most of you would probably be lost in Tokyo, even if you knew the language. It's a bit unfair to ask for information on the Elemental Plane of Water, which doesn't exist in our world, but these are real world nations that most of us in America/West Europe know next to nothing about (actually, Europeans might know more about transylvania than I give them credit for, but my argument still stands for the rest).

Simply put, Celia is in a society and culture that is rather unlike her own, specifically, it's lawless. And she, as a lawyer, would only have experience in lawful societies. She'd probably be a lot more competent in a Lawful Evil society, because it's not the Evil that's throwing her off, here, it's the Chaotic. She wants to see the good in everything only because she doesn't begin to understand what's going on, because she's out of her element, which is the law.

And keep in mind, Celia has never, ever been in a life threatening situation before, so her ignorance of the obviously life threatening situation she just entered is probably just a result of comforting delusions. I'm not really in danger. I'm sure this man just acted in the heat of the moment, and now he's getting his brother a ressurection. Yes, that's it. He's a good person. You shouldn't judge by appearances, after all.

And I'm going to say for the record that I came into this unbiased and actually put some thought into my conclusions here, so Arameus could, in fact, have swayed me one way or another, because no, no one you ever get into an argument with, on the internet or anywhere else, will ever be persuaded to your point of view, because once the argument starts, their only goal is to defend their point of view. They're not in the market for a new one. Thus, arguments are useless unless there's a third party present, who is undecided (in this case, me).

[FujinAkari]

I am through arguing with this. You Celiaites cannot admit her character has drastically changed without any form of development despite how obvious it is.

All we're asking you to do is define what it is your talking about. All you keep doing is yelling that she's changed, but you won't say how, or what specifically makes you think so. Every definitive argument that has been introduced has been challenged, if not outright defeated, but I -still- don't know what you're complaining about, largely because the closest you have come to an argument is "There are some things she didn't notice that she should have!"

Obviously, without any more than that, this is restricted to base opinion, which is invalid in any form of debate.


Maybe you like the new Celia, that is fine. But she still changed, and all these, quite frankly, highly unintelligent arguments you have made do not add up.I wasn't insulting anyone except maybe Celia who is a fictional character.

When you say that anyone with half a brain could notice that, and I have no clue what 'that' refers too, then clearly you are saying that I don't have half a brain. That would be an insult. It isn't an intentional insult, but it is one nonetheless. It basically is saying "Anyone who is intelligent agrees with me."


This is my last post in the battle of gibberish which broke down due to adamant Celia supporters missing the opponents' valid points.

And these valid points WOULD BE? Seriously, -just define what the heck you're talking about.- Please?

Also: Pot, Kettle, Black? Anyone who claims that their side is entirely right and reasonable and the other side is entirely wrong and unreasonable is never correct :P Any debate with noticible support on both sides will necessarily have degrees of validity on -both- sides.

[Shatteredtower]

Of course, those of you that like Dahlia...Celia. Denial isn't going to help the case against her. :smallwink:


...aren't going to be moved one way or the other...Such accusations are unbecoming to a "Lalalalala I can't hear you!" argument. :smallwink:


...but it needed sezzing so I sez it.Um... no. It really didn't.

Not that I needed to point that out or anything. :smallwink:


Anyone with half a brain (or who is currently doing well in law school as lawyers may not be geniuses, but they are not idiots) would know that.Humanocentric assumptions of common sense apply only to humans. Celia isn't human, and spends less time among them than a certain dwarf, elf, and halfling.

I think you'd be amazed to learn how many lawyers wind up in trouble within moments of crossing a state border for operating on assumptions. Celia's just had that exaggerated for comic effect.


I've already made myself very clear on that in a previous thread — but I won't repeat my arguments here, because everybody will jump on me to say "Rich is a genius, he can do no wrong," etc.Word of advice? There's no point in reading any post that concludes by playing the persecuted poster card.


Mantra, folks. Seriously. Every one of you...Double standard much? :smalltongue: This is how some folks unwind between dealing with serious and personal matters. None of them are losing sleep or accumulating ulcers over the characterization of Celia. Let's not be doing it for them, 'kay?


I wasn't insulting anyone...

Here's an excerpt from this thread's eighth post:


1 - I hear you DnD nerds...

Perhaps this statement was not intended to be an insult, but the combination of phrasing and words chosen make it one.

I'm still willing to entertain the possibility that Celia is being mischaracterized, by the way. I'm just not reading very convincing arguments for it.

[David Argall]

There's a simple explanation: Rich isn't a novelist.

Web comics are written piecemeal; as soon as you post a segment, it becomes canon. That constrains what you are later able to do.
This is true of a lot of strips, but we are told, with no reason to doubt it, that the final comic for OOTS was effectively inked before the first one was started. The plot is not set down to the strip level [Miko is the best known example here. As 200 was inked, the inn scene was to be light romance. When 223 rolled around, that decision was changed to dealing with some assassins.], but the plot is still set in considerable detail very far into the future. [Most of us are pretty sure of large sections of volume 5, which will involve Elan's dad and Haley's father, who may well be the prision of Elan's pop. Hmm... Isn't there a fairly famous book called "Sons and Daughters"? Would the name of book 5 be a pun off that? Or a similar volume? ]


Celia was a one-joke character that was written in — a sylph guarding the air sigil. Her role was simply to get turned to stone and land on someone, then help the OOTS escape. I seriously doubt if he ever intended for her to be more than that, because at that time, Miko was intended to be the love interest!
This has been absolutely denied. [It might well have been superior, but...] Miko was intended from the first to haul the party back, kill Shojo, and destroy the gate, and die. Roy's attraction was to only last to about 250.
The author is partly to blame for any alternate ideas. By calling Miko a recurring character and comparing her to Redcloak and Nale, he allowed us to think she would be in the rest of the story rather than just two books. [Calling it a fault is offputting, but by making Miko so "interesting", he also encouraged us to think of her as a permanent part of the story.] And by making Celia such a palid nothing as a love interest, it is easy to get the idea she was just a quick substitute stuck in to meet a deadline rather than seriously thought out.



All we're asking you to do is define what it is your talking about. All you keep doing is yelling that she's changed, but you won't say how, or what specifically makes you think so.

Well, he has defined what he is talking about. He just hasn't defended it very well. In previous volumes, Celia was knowledgable and competent. In this volume, her record is much more uneven, indeed outright bad. If one ignores the 'fish out of water' factors, it is easy to claim she has changed.
We have pointed out that, allowing for comic effect, Celia is behaving in a very well known way, but it is easy to assume that competence is a universal factor and if one is good in one thing, one is good in all. We know that not to be true, and that it particularly is not to be true in comedy where mocking the wise as idiots is par for the course, but it is still easy to think it's not being true to the character.

[JohnnyPsycho]

Double standard much? :smalltongue: This is how some folks unwind between dealing with serious and personal matters. None of them are losing sleep or accumulating ulcers over the characterization of Celia. Let's not be doing it for them, 'kay?
I was just worried things were getting a bit heated on both sides and wanted everyone to cool off. Where's the double standard in that? Since when has reminding folks to "keep it clean and relaxed" been considered a bad thing? (it's the name, isnt' it? Everyone always expects a guy with the word "psycho" in his name to be less of a pacifist, I suppose :smallbiggrin: )

I suppose I'm just wary of long, and let's say more "passionate", debates over fan speculations and criticisms... I've seen drama-bombs detonate over far less than what's been said so far in here...

[Chronicled]

And, of course, it really doesn't seem in line with how she was before, since I recall her demonstrating herself quite capable of violence against other living things; remeber her zapping Nale and Thog? Can you adjust the power on those lighting blasts? It seems like you realistically could, but in D&D it seems like you couldn't; you can't cast a tiny Fireball to singe someone's eyebrows, after all. And if she's blasting two tied-up prisoners with a force that can knock out a solid stone bridge or a fortified wooden gate in one shot, for no greater reason that that she's miffed at them, then her former portrayal and her current portrayal, which will not condone even nonlethal force against creatures that actively want to kill them, simply do not jibe well. Either that or she's a huge hypocrite, which is pretty unlikable in itself.[/SIZE]

Per this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html), it would seem that she can. Minor detail, but there it is.

[AceOfFools]

And these valid points WOULD BE? Seriously, -just define what the heck you're talking about.- Please?
I'm not claiming to speak Admiral_Kelly, here, but let me try to explain this.

Celia was previously involved in a criminal trial, was hired as a rune guardian, and attends law school in a setting where literal demons eat people from time to time. It's unreasonable to assume that she has no experience with crime or baser human nature.

Rich has shown rather throughly by now that that unreasonable assumption holds true, in this instance.

Celia never expressed a pushy hippie peacenick point of view before. Her radical world view kinda comes out of nowhere and dominates her screen time, giving the impression that this is very central to her character, yet was never hinted at before.

So yeah, central elements of Celia is different than she was in earlier appearances. The point where Admiral_Kelly's view and my own diverge is that I don't think that this change in the presented character is impossible.

I, for one, am willing to believe that a) people sometimes have traits that it would be unreasonable to assume they posses, and b) you can interact with someone frequently for a surprisingly extended period of time without finding out some of their most fundamental beliefs.

Examples from my life:
It took about 6 months of weekly gaming with one friend of mine for me to pick up on the fact that the guy was from Germany (as in a German citizen with a student visa).

I was comparing musical tastes with a friend of mine when a song with decidedly misogynistic lyrics came up (Whiskey in the Jar). His stance on the song, "It's exactly how I feel about women," was rather shocking to me, as we have a number of mutual female friends, and he doesn't show any signs of even rudeness when we're hanging out with them (unless he's drunk and horny, but even then he's not as bad as you're probably thinking). His poor luck with women probably has something to do with it.

Almost all of my close friends, some of which I've known for years (particularly those that have come out of the closet to me) are shocked to learn that I'm actually homophobic. Something about my having gay friends, enjoying platonic cuddling with my male friends and kissing another man to prove how secure the two of us were in our sexuality throws them off. (Aside: that experience is why I will never grow a beard. Itchy and unpleasant.) The fact that I find someone's sexual preference disturbing isn't really an issue for most of my relationships because I'm not the sort of guy who holds character traits against people unless they shove them in my face repeatedly over my protests. It also helps that I don't confuse a person's sexual preferences with their character.
So I'm willing to accept that the apparent changes in Celia's character aren't character derailment. Someone operating under the assumption that people are reasonable (not actually all that bad assumption, generally) might have trouble accepting points a and b. I know I would have about seven years ago.

[DBear]

Celia seems to be played the way a noob would first play D&D. Doesn't matter how smart you are, if you've never cracked open the player's handbook, much less the monster manual, you will not know what's going on. I remember many years ago, my first D&D session, when I did not know a drow from a lich. :smalleek:
Celia seems to have graduated to PC status and will be going thru some growing pains.

[bluewind95]

I sincerely apologize if this has been mentioned before... I think it has, actually, but I read the thread within several days and I don't remember all the posts...

Anyways, personally... I don't think Celia is being exactly stupid. Nor do I think she really lacks all the street smarts. I do, however, think that she is not as "street smart" as Haley, for example... but the main reason I think she is acting that way is out of sheer denial. She is kinda going the "see no evil" route. I think she's well-aware of the evil, but chooses to ignore it because it's her only hope, as she can see. She just wants to see Roy alive again and doesn't care about anything else. And the faster she sees Roy alive, the better. So she's acting against her own judgment in order to do so.

... that's what I think, anyways..

[Occasional Sage]

Celia was previously involved in a criminal trial, was hired as a rune guardian, and attends law school in a setting where literal demons eat people from time to time. It's unreasonable to assume that she has no experience with crime or baser human nature.

Rich has shown rather throughly by now that that unreasonable assumption holds true, in this instance.

I don't remember hearing anything about the school; can you link that please?



Celia never expressed a pushy hippie peacenick point of view before. Her radical world view kinda comes out of nowhere and dominates her screen time, giving the impression that this is very central to her character, yet was never hinted at before.

And it is, frankly, irritating me. Sanctimonious people make me itch.



So yeah, central elements of Celia is different than she was in earlier appearances. The point where Admiral_Kelly's view and my own diverge is that I don't think that this change in the presented character is impossible.

I, for one, am willing to believe that a) people sometimes have traits that it would be unreasonable to assume they posses, and b) you can interact with someone frequently for a surprisingly extended period of time without finding out some of their most fundamental beliefs.

I'm there with you. There's nothing in Celia's previous appearances that suggest that she'd turn out to be... this.

[FujinAkari]

Celia never expressed a pushy hippie peacenick point of view before. Her radical world view kinda comes out of nowhere and dominates her screen time, giving the impression that this is very central to her character, yet was never hinted at before.

I really don't understand this point of view... I've seen it a lot.

Celia tries to avoid violence, but once someone attacks her, she throws lightning around with reckless abandon. She is nothing like a hippie or a peacenick... all I've seen her do is object to murder except as a last resort.

Edit: I think people mistook her "Omg! An animal might choke on your chocolate!" as some sort of beatnick 'life is sacred' rant when I took it more as someone who deals exclusively WITH cause/effect relationships. She knew that discarding candy would account to negligent homicide and went to prevent that eventuality.

Yeah, she likely likes cute and fluffy animals (thus her specific lingo) but I didn't take it as "Death is always bad maaaaan... just live in peace." but instead as the natural extension of a lawyer's outlook on life.

[Occasional Sage]

I really don't understand this point of view... I've seen it a lot.

Celia tries to avoid violence, but once someone attacks her, she throws lightning around with reckless abandon. She is nothing like a hippie or a peacenick... all I've seen her do is object to murder except as a last resort.

Edit: I think people mistook her "Omg! An animal might choke on your chocolate!" as some sort of beatnick 'life is sacred' rant when I took it more as someone who deals exclusively WITH cause/effect relationships. She knew that discarding candy would account to negligent homicide and went to prevent that eventuality.

Yeah, she likely likes cute and fluffy animals (thus her specific lingo) but I didn't take it as "Death is always bad maaaaan... just live in peace." but instead as the natural extension of a lawyer's outlook on life.

I was assuming that "before" meant during the trial and while "dating" Roy. The real reveal of her less-than-fabulous personality quirks started when she was accidentally summoned; since that time we've seen her in all of the new-to-her circumstances that are causing her (and the Forumites) indigestion.

[Shatteredtower]

I was just worried things were getting a bit heated on both sides and wanted everyone to cool off.

Ah. My apologies for completely misreading the intention, then. Points taken.

[JohnnyPsycho]

s'aright...:smallwink:

[DigoDragon]

I'm still willing to entertain the possibility that Celia is being mischaracterized, by the way. I'm just not reading very convincing arguments for it.

Thinking about this topic today, I would surmise the major reasoning behind her odd actions to go into Greysky was because she loves Roy to the point of doing out-of-character things to get him back, rather then just the inexperience idea. Well, she probably is inexperienced, but I can see a stronger argument based on her love for roy. I've done a couple out-of-character things for a girl before. Not the brightest ideas I ever had, but love will do that to a person. :smallredface:

Didn't Celia start tearing up when Haley told her the news? I bet she misses Roy a lot and is willing to try ANYTHING at this point. Even if it means ignoring the possible dangers.

[arkwei]

Well, for one thing, Celia attended law school in Material Plane.

Otherwise, she can't be summoned via a Teleport-related spell, which doesn't work across planar boundaries. Why is that spell Teleport-like? Because Plane Shift can't lead you to a specific location, as in this link: this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm)


Also, note that the spell used to summon her can't be high-level. I mean, she doesn't seem to fare well economically, and that pretty much translate into a low character level, both for her and her family. Even a single use 5th level spell item would cost 2250 gp, and no one who is trying desperately for a job like in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0071.html) and take a life-threatening job like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) (as her mom says on the phone) would have this kind of spare money.


-----------------------------------


By the same reasoning, her home is on the material plane, too, otherwise her mom can't summon her back sometimes to check on her, as in comic 529.

It can be argued that her mom is using summon monster spells, but I remember something in the description in that spell that says you can't call a specific creature with that spell. Also, would you do that to your daughter? Summon her like summoning a monster is really insulting, in my opinion.


-----------------------------------


There's something else to note: She knows Cliffport is north to Azure, and Graysky is in between.

Would a planar creature know the geography this well? This is like, a New Yorker new to California knowing San Mateo (a small city) is between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

[Iuris]

Personally, I feel the Giant has recently overexaggerated both Celia and Belkar. Ever since the start of the arc, Belkar has gone even further out of control than he was before, to the point of straining credulity. He didn't always just kill everyone he spotted - people were surprised by the gnome killing. Same happened to Celia. She was a bit naive and inexperienced, but has recently gone too far to the extreme, again straining credulity.

However, since we have Haley straight in the middle, I think it's all done for a purpose. After all, the middle of the seesaw bears all the weight...

[Charles Phipps]

Actually, did we KNOW enough about Ceilia to say how she'd react in any given situation? We know that she was dumb enough to fall for Nale's trick that she'd been frozen for a thousand years. Also that she can win a legal case.

It strains credulity that she would fall for the fact that an Evil Necromancer was buying bodies.

Yet in a fantasy Webcomic, all of the OOTS members have had wildly exaggerated moments as well. But, it also occurs to me we don't KNOW that she's not horribly naive yet because she hasn't recieved that much development.

[JohnnyPsycho]

Personally, I feel the Giant has recently overexaggerated both Celia and Belkar. Ever since the start of the arc, Belkar has gone even further out of control than he was before, to the point of straining credulity. He didn't always just kill everyone he spotted - people were surprised by the gnome killing. Same happened to Celia. She was a bit naive and inexperienced, but has recently gone too far to the extreme, again straining credulity.

However, since we have Haley straight in the middle, I think it's all done for a purpose. After all, the middle of the seesaw bears all the weight...

I think the reason Rich let the Belkster get so out of control and kill-crazy is because Roy isn't there... that's sort of the whole point of how things have been deteriorating with everyone in the Order.

And I have to admit, the whole idea of Celia acting out of character because she's acting purely out of her love of Roy hadn't occurred to me until bluewind95 and DigoDragon both said something to that effect. Nice call, gentlemen... (or, er, lady... sorry bluewind)

[Nerd-o-rama]

You know, all this arguing aside, and despite not minding Celia's actions thus far too much, I still like the "Dahlia" theory.

[David Argall]

I would surmise the major reasoning behind her odd actions to go into Greysky was because she loves Roy to the point of doing out-of-character things to get him back, rather then just the inexperience idea.

But where are the odd actions? What out-of-character things has she done? Just why are they out of character?

Celia fits nicely into the experience-poor recent grad who doesn't really understand the rest of the world, and wants to insist it play by her rules. Sometimes that can work very well, and other times...well, not so well. We don't need any theories about her being a case of temporary insanity.l

[AceOfFools]

Re: Occasional Sage:
The demons eating people thing is a reference to 518 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), and was about the setting in general, not her school.

And yeah, pushy peacenick is a particularly irritating archtype, which is part of why people find the change so shocking. They used to like Celia, and now she's irritating.

Re FujinAkari:
I'm thinking about her reaction to killing hobgoblins. She's horrified by the idea and finds a (valid) justification for why it shouldn't be done.

And then she compares Haley's willingness to kill the hobgoblins with Belkar's murder of the gnome. That's where I get the whole peaceknick thing.

Re DigoDragon:
While not denying that it's possible that she's head-over-heels blinded by love, I find that idea not to be in keeping with her character. I think its more of an issue that she thinks she knows what she's doing based on faulty assumptions of how the world works.

Haley's only reason for avoiding going to the city was that it was full of crime (and even that was after days of insisting that they bypass it). If I could fly and shoot lightning from my hand, not to mention had a strong working knowledge of law, I'd consider trying to do a little bit of shopping in a high crime area. If I had an alley whose reaction to knowing that they had to take on 20+ trained monstrous soldiers at once was minor annoyance at the tedium, I'd find the idea of a few unequipped criminals laughable.

In that light, Haley's insistence that they avoid the city is completely unreasonible, and so the only logical thing to do is take matters into your own hands. The fact that she leaves behind the reason criminals pose no threat to her just shows that "the only logical thing" isn't always the logical choice.

I'm not saying that affection doesn't play a role in her thought process. It's just falling head over heels in love with someone you've meet a grand total of three times isn't exactly what I expect from someone characterized as what amounts to an upper-class American collage girl.

[Charles Phipps]

I confess.

It's fun to imagine Thog will end up killing Celia in the end.

Oh her tender Fey flesh.

[Yorgelayheehoo]

She's not so much stupid as arrogant.


She knows that in a civilized state, she'd have this guys ass on a platter. She could sue him down to nothing, (see her comment about emotional distress), and the town guards would never let him get away with it.
Hence, she goes in assuming that he's talking about ressurecting roy since buying people to make golems is illegal in a lawful state (unless its lawful evil), and doesn't consider the other options.

The problem is this ISN'T a civilized state, its a dangerous, lawless jungle. She's so used to dealing with more well off, safer districts, where law reigns, that she can't fathom the situation.


In short, she's classic lawful being thrown into all out chaotic.

I agree. I also think that is is one of the only reasons we need (as well as the sheltered ivory tower argument) for why she's acting the way she is.

[ABB]

I wonder if Celia could become the new Miko: An incredibly divisive character that many people love and many people hate.

[Samurai Jill]

Yes. I agree. How terrible it is for a strong female character- or any pre-existing character- to be forced into a role the plot requires, by acting in a way completely different from how you imagine the character to be under completely different circumstancse when you barely knew them.
Oh, you poor, poor Celia fans. ...Or former fans(?) ...I'm not sure which are actually upset here...
Meh.

Yeah, it's kinda odd that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would not notice this was a dangerous place where she would get killed, or that someone with extensive training in Law wouldn't be very clear about terms and conditions of 'envivification' before handing over money. But I also think all the characters sometimes have their motives or capabilities kinda 'stretched' for the sake of storyline, like Belkar rescuing Elan, or O-chul surviving the castle's explosion. That's not new.

This is true of a lot of strips, but we are told, with no reason to doubt it, that the final comic for OOTS was effectively inked before the first one was started.
When were 'we' told that? He certainly hasn't told me.

This has been absolutely denied. [It might well have been superior, but...
Odd. I kinda remember Rich saying in Paladin Blues that he had planned just that...

I wonder if Celia could become the new Miko: An incredibly divisive character that many people love and many people hate.
The fans always hate anyone who goes against the precious Order's wishes, beliefs, or attitudes, or questions their methods in the slightest way. Haley's made some dumb decisions lately, and the fans defended her and attacked Celia even when Haley was clearle in the wrong.
It's no different now.

[Occasional Sage]

I wonder if Celia could become the new Miko: An incredibly divisive character that many people love and many people hate.

Nah, she'll get a little experience, toughen up, and be likable again.


Re: Occasional Sage:
The demons eating people thing is a reference to 518 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), and was about the setting in general, not her school.

And yeah, pushy peacenick is a particularly irritating archtype, which is part of why people find the change so shocking. They used to like Celia, and now she's irritating.

I think that's a general world-thing. It doesn't mean that Celia has any experience with things like that. In fact, our world is a pretty horrific place, but that doesn't stop graduate students from being so out of touch with real life that I want to kick them hard enough to taste my heel.



Re FujinAkari:
I'm thinking about her reaction to killing hobgoblins. She's horrified by the idea and finds a (valid) justification for why it shouldn't be done.

And then she compares Haley's willingness to kill the hobgoblins with Belkar's murder of the gnome. That's where I get the whole peaceknick thing.

Re DigoDragon:
While not denying that it's possible that she's head-over-heels blinded by love, I find that idea not to be in keeping with her character. I think its more of an issue that she thinks she knows what she's doing based on faulty assumptions of how the world works.

Yup. That's what we see happening. She's not a bad person, or unlikable. She just has NO CLUE about anything. She'll be rocked back after this and will start listening, I'll bet.

EDIT TO ADD:

The fans always hate anyone who goes against the precious Order's wishes, beliefs, or attitudes, or questions their methods in the slightest way. Haley's made some dumb decisions lately, and the fans defended her and attacked Celia even when Haley was clearle in the wrong.
It's no different now.

Frankly, it's nice to see protagonists get a moral shake-up. Celia being right rather than Haley has nothing to do with me disliking her. I generally dislike people who lack an understanding of their capabilities and environment. That'll be fixed in her, rather quickly I think. Thankfully, fiction progresses faster than real life.

[Admiral_Kelly]

The fans always hate anyone who goes against the precious Order's wishes, beliefs, or attitudes, or questions their methods in the slightest way. Haley's made some dumb decisions lately, and the fans defended her and attacked Celia even when Haley was clearle in the wrong.
It's no different now.*cough* I wasn't going to post again here, 'cept this is unrelated to the issue so it does not count.

I find this paragraph here to be a case of painting everyone with the same brush (I have done it before, maybe within this very thread, but that is neither here nor there). Rather than go on a long rant as to how wrong this is, I will provide a single counter-example:

I liked Miko. I do not like Celia.

Saying the mentality of most or all OotS fans can be broken down into a single maxim which defines their tastes ('support order good, go against order bad') is a very thick-headed notion.

-AK

[Samurai Jill]

Well, I mean, that large portion of fans will.

The point is, what's happening with Celia is nothing unusual, really. All the characters do wierd things when and as the plot requires it. If you're going to fault the Giant for this, now isn't the time.

[NENAD]

Actually, I've always been of a Haley-ish mindset concerning war, murder, and enemy casualties. And when Miko didn't agree with the Order it was usually a pretty obvious "Miko has gone completely insane" type situation (or at least "Miko hasn't stopped to fully consider the situation leading to an insane conclusion"), so your point seems to me invalid...But I didn't go on an archive trawl to check Celia's and Miko's relations with the Order, so who knows.

[ABB]

Well, in her defense, Celia's lack of fear about going into town may have been partly based on ignorance and naiveté', but she also may have had just cause to feel safe there between her ability to fly and cast lightning bolts powerful enough to make thog hurt, she might be safer from mundane street thugs than most humans...

[FujinAkari]

Well, for one thing, Celia attended law school in Material Plane.

Otherwise, she can't be summoned via a Teleport-related spell, which doesn't work across planar boundaries. Why is that spell Teleport-like? Because Plane Shift can't lead you to a specific location, as in this link: this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm)

Good point, except Sabine proves it to be untrue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). She is rather explicitly using Planeshift, and reappeard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) much closer than the 5 miles away which should be the minimum.

Clearly plane shift doesn't work the way it is written (additionally, we can note that Sabine shouldn't -have- Plane shift as a daily power, which could explain why Celia can make items based on it... Plane Shift seems much more available that usual)


There's something else to note: She knows Cliffport is north to Azure, and Graysky is in between.

Would a planar creature know the geography this well? This is like, a New Yorker new to California knowing San Mateo (a small city) is between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

Actually, she knew that Haley was going North to Cliffport, and that they were passing a city. Unless I missed something, she got her geography lesson FROM Haley during the trip, it wasn't information she already knew.

[Halvormerlinaky]

I agree, you can't pass law school if you are a complete idiot and any 6th grader could have seen that Greysky City is a violent slum that you do not want to get anywhere near and that none of the residents can be fully trusted until you know them a while.

Google Jack Thompson, or just go to gamepolitics.com.

[Charles Phipps]

Miko still had her fans because, despite her being wrong on everything, she was still a psychopathic berserker.

Nobody likes a pacifist in D&D.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Having now caught up:

This thread really reminds me of when Belkar killed the gnome. People were screaming, "OMG, how could Belkar do that?!?! That's totally out of character for him!!!!!"

And the rest of us just responded, "Um, he's EVIL."

Ironically the sorts of naive people whom Celia embodies responded, "No he's not. He's never murdered anyone before!" And they kept their eyes and ears shut to the amazing amount of evidence to the contrary.

Celia is the embodiment of the well-to-do but sheltered college/grad student who knows that there's evil in the world, but don't have any first-hand knowledge of it (barring the white-collar kind). Or the rookie cop who thinks he knows all about good and bad/law and order, but is introduced to the wide array of greys that populate the real world, wherein it's better to let the thug commit his crimes so that the boss can be found and arrested.

Those who think that lawyers are some sort of omniscient group of people who know everything that's going on haven't even watched a legal drama on TV. If they had, they'd realize that lawyers rely on experts to do all the real work. They hire private detectives to dig up dirt or info on their clients and the other side, and rely on police detectives or CSI-types to provide the evidence, motive, opportunity, etc.

Lawyers only correlate the data they are provided in order to argue their case. They also tend to twist anything to their own advantage, but that is only based on what other provide for them. Lawyers don't go to a crime scene and start examining all the details. Sure, they learn about crimes after the fact, but they aren't trained to go out and find and identify crimes/criminals. If they're given a bunch of facts, they can conclude, "Hey, that's a crime!" but they're not trained to do so first hand by looking directly at the facts. After a while they may learn to do this, so that they can identify when someone is up to no good, but that's more of an intuition based on real experience rather than something they've learned from a book or lecture.

Lawyers aren't Batman, who can perch on a building above a street and pick out every crime that's happening as it occurs. They're the ones who can sift through data and evidence and identify which laws were broken. Sure, if one sees someone else stab an innocent gnome right in front of her, she'll know it's murder, but what happens on the periphery is an entirely different matter.

This particular applies to Celia, who was raised in a calm, law-abiding environment, given what we have seen of her reactions to the events in the strip, and only knows of crime from a theoretical viewpoint. She knows that crimes occur, and that evil is real, but she has absolutely ZERO first-hand knowledge of this beyond what she has experienced in the strip. Even then, she has worn rose-tinted glasses for many of them. She has allowed her arrogance, and more importantly her ignorance to cloud her perceptions. She completely believes that she knows what going on every time she's involved, but there are no fundamental facts to support this.

IMAO, Celia represents a real person being exposed to DnD for the first time. She's someone who has maybe seen LoTR and heard about some other stories, but hasn't actually read any of the rulebooks. She says, "Hey, I've heard about this stuff, and seen a movie or three, so I must know how to play DnD."

Frankly, and I think this is important, she's hilarious. She doesn't even need to be consistent, as she's mostly there to provide comedy. She may evolve into a more central character as the plot progresses, but her main role is as the naive but intelligent person who believes she fully understands the world without having actually experienced it outside of her protected and isolated upbringing.

There are plenty of people in the real world who have done the same. They decide that they want to join the Peace Corps (just one of many examples) because they've read some books about what's going on in Darfur then go there. Then they're totally unprepared for what's actually happening in such an environment. They aren't prepared to deal with a reality where it's "you or me" when "you or me" actually means that that bowl of food means that "you or me" will live to see the next day. To them it's, "If I don't get this now, I'll just get it somewhere else," not, "This is IT. There is NO other option."

Celia is slowly, VERY slowly, learning that the "real" world isn't as black and white as she believed. That's why she's such an interesting character. Had Rich kept her unchanging she'd be pretty boring. It's only through her growth and evolution that we can find her appealing, beyond the simple comedy of her ignorance.

Wow, that was longer than I thought it would be.

[Underground]

I dont care about rationalizations really.

Celia is so unbelievable stupid that she's a danger to her environment and herself.

Yes she comes from a civilization, but hello ? She saw Belkar killing a harmless innocent for his chocolate ! How much bigger can a wakeup call "hey you left civilization" be ?

[brilliantlight]

Celia may isn't street smart. She seems to know her field - the law, and blowing up inanimate objects with lightning - pretty good. She has been useful, and still may be. At least she can understand and be taught certain things - like lightning heals frankenstein-like golems. She's acting just like anyone else would in her situation - trying to do something good, without having too much knowledge about her surrounding. Almost everyone in OOTS has at one point done that. Comparing her to Elan - who is far more useless and far less intelligent - she is way better - and if you people (the masses) have been able to tolerate Elan for so long, you would be hypocrytical to say that Celia upsets you.

The difference is Elan was shown to be a complete idiot from the first time you see him and Celia has not. It doesn't bother people when an idot acts moronic but it does when an intelligent person. I have never lived in a violent neighborhood but if I am going through Detroit I am going to expect violence and if I see some guy carrying a dead body I am going to assume he killed him.

[arkwei]

Good point, except Sabine proves it to be untrue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). She is rather explicitly using Planeshift, and reappeard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) much closer than the 5 miles away which should be the minimum.

Clearly plane shift doesn't work the way it is written (additionally, we can note that Sabine shouldn't -have- Plane shift as a daily power, which could explain why Celia can make items based on it... Plane Shift seems much more available that usual)



Actually, she knew that Haley was going North to Cliffport, and that they were passing a city. Unless I missed something, she got her geography lesson FROM Haley during the trip, it wasn't information she already knew.


About Plane Shift first:

I could argue Azure is more that 5 miles across, which is reasonable. But I would rather simply point out that Randy's PS power didn't seem to send her to the exact spot she is trying to arrive at, which is her room with Nale. I mean, purposely arriving in the air is really not likely. A case could be made that Randy doesn't know the specifics of Azure and sent her in the air instead, but I don't know.

Another thing: there's no "Plane Shift Gate" visual effect when Celia arrived.

It could be a new form of Summoning spell, who knows?

--------------------------

About Graysky:

No, Celia mentioned it first to Haley. As in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)comic.

--------------------------

Shoot! Nevermind about what I said.


Celia said in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) comic, "the one spell to bring us together...was Plane Shift."

Darn. I thought I was smart.

[AceOfFools]

I dont care about rationalizations really.

Celia is so unbelievable stupid that she's a danger to her environment and herself.

Yes she comes from a civilization, but hello ? She saw Belkar killing a harmless innocent for his chocolate ! How much bigger can a wakeup call "hey you left civilization" be ?
People very often need repeated lessons in how things they hold are fundamental truths aren't all that true before it sticks. Years of belief (and evidence to back up that belief) are not thrown out because of a single counter-example.

Besides with, that was in the middle of nowhere, not the middle of a city. The City is a very common symbol used to represent civilization.

Re Occasional Sage:
My point was that in the setting the fact that there exist demons that eats people is common knowledge leads people to assume that Celia should know something about evil monsters. It's a reasonable assumption, but either it's wrong or more likely Celia doesn't relate to what she knows on some level.

Re Plane Shift:
The only group that I've ever been in that used Plane Shift exactly as written was Living Greyhawk. It's annoying and impedes the flow of the story.

Combine that with the fact that it has a solid descriptive name, and people just fill in how they think the spell would work.

Point being, I don't like the Plane Shift spell as written.

[ABB]

I think the reason Rich let the Belkster get so out of control and kill-crazy is because Roy isn't there... that's sort of the whole point of how things have been deteriorating with everyone in the Order.

And I have to admit, the whole idea of Celia acting out of character because she's acting purely out of her love of Roy hadn't occurred to me until bluewind95 and DigoDragon both said something to that effect. Nice call, gentlemen... (or, er, lady... sorry bluewind)

Hmm, excellent observation there, Johnny. It seems that things have really gone to hell without roy there. He may haven't been much in some ways, but he kept things together. Now belkar's going uberevil, V is also degenerating apparently, the group's broken up, etc.

Maybe roy, for all his averageness, was the heart and soul of the group that kept the others on an even keel.

[NENAD]

Let's look at some of Celia's comments in the most recent strip, #579.

"You're always expecting ME to know things I would have no way of learning..."

This is, if nothing else, reinforcement of the fact that Celia didn't know about humans because of a lack of material, not stupidity. It may also be saying that she didn't have any reason to know Greysky was a bad town, but that's a stretch.

"I was thinking we could get this whole thing finished quicker, so Roy would be OK and I could go back to school, where I actually understand what's going on."

This is a pretty blatant windfall for the side of "Celia is acting dumb because she's out of her element."

"Cared about Belkar? Eww, good gods, no."

So apparently Celia isn't a peacenik Friend to All Living Things, as she evidently would have no qualms with leaving Belkar to almost certain death in Greysky, since, you know, he's Belkar.

I have no doubt that this new information will fail to stop the argument from continuing, but at least now I can say that one side is almost certainly wrong and move on with life, checking up on this thread only to laugh at those who still cling to their delusions.

[David Argall]

Sabine proves it to be untrue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). She is rather explicitly using Planeshift, and reappeard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) much closer than the 5 miles away which should be the minimum.
It is not definite how Sabine comes back. She hitches a ride with some fiend whose method is vague. So she may be well able to come back within inches of her goal.
More important perhaps, summons spells allow one to pinpoint where creatures arrive. That would argue that if you combine Plane Shift with a known goal, the resulting accuracy could improve to precision levels. The distances mentioned in text are when you don't know much about where you are going.

If we are allowing good/bad luck, the 5 miles away is there for game convenience, not as a minimum. The spell is not to be used to get you precisely there, but there is no good reason to think you will arrive only at one of 20 spots at 5 mile intervals, except that it is more convenient for play. So to describe a real world, we would find the arrival will be at any of an infinite number of points. And some of them would be closer than 5 miles. [Maybe replace 5 miles with 20 distances from 2.5-7.5 miles and make a 2nd roll. So now we have 1 chance in 400 of Sabine getting pretty close to Nale, and as Haley pointed out, long odds like that are almost a guaranteed hit.]


Actually, she knew that Haley was going North to Cliffport, and that they were passing a city. Unless I missed something, she got her geography lesson FROM Haley during the trip, it wasn't information she already knew.
No, she tells us, and Haley, in 531 where the cities are. Of course, if she had decided to leave to search for the needed magic, it would be a fairly easy task to consult a map or some of the locals before she talked with Haley. So we can't really deduct much from her knowledge.



Celia said in this comic, "the one spell to bring us together...was Plane Shift."
However, we know there is something wrong with this statement. Plane Shift would not bring Celia into Roy's arms, just somewhere in the general area if she was on a different plane. So Celia is talking about different magic and is talking loosely. Since we are not sure what spell she actually meant, we can not deduct where her law school is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
This is true of a lot of strips, but we are told, with no reason to doubt it, that the final comic for OOTS was effectively inked before the first one was started.

When were 'we' told that? He certainly hasn't told me.
Well the FAQ, which has not been seriously updated in 3 years or so, includes "I already know what the last panel of the last comic will be,". There are similar statements here and there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
This has been absolutely denied. [It might well have been superior, but...


Odd. I kinda remember Rich saying in Paladin Blues that he had planned just that...
See...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...07#post4390407

[Rev. George]

This is, if nothing else, reinforcement of the fact that Celia didn't know about humans because of a lack of material, not stupidity.

Exactly- She makes the assumption every human makes- That those different from her are actually just like her. Varsuvius has been asked if s/he slept. or needed to hit the restroom. This of course means that the "wise adventuring types" assumed elves had similar traits as humans.

Movies, books and television are rife with examples of humans encountering the alien and assuming they are like us. (Tim burton satirized this in "Mars attacks" )

To use a real world example- We sent out Pioneer 10. Included was this plate: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Pioneer_plaque.svg/120px-Pioneer_plaque.svg.png We assume that any aliens that encounter it will see it as a message of friendship, or at least neutrality.

Celia did the same. She assumed that humans could manifest elemental energy because she can, as can her mother, her father, all of her neighbors, ETC.

-+G

[busterswd]

Also to those of you saying "how can anyone with common sense just ignore murders happening right in front of her?", keep in mind she's not omniscient; sure, if you see someone getting stabbed in an alley, you're going to be extremely wary and not trust anyone. But why do people stereotypically get stabbed in alleys, and not in an open, highly visible area? You're the reader, you get treated to things Celia just doesn't see (remember, Belkar in front of exit) to build up a setting.

The only thing you can really fault her for is the conversation with the guy dragging his brother, and I tack that up to not understanding standard procedure for getting ressed. And as other people have pointed out, she's walking right by a Policeman and several other civilians. If no one else is panicking, it's possible those strange humans are used to this (in DnD terms, the circumstance bonuses were working against her). After all, in a world where violent deaths are temporary, how else are you going to get your deceased friend to a cleric?

Also it's possible she was just railroaded by the mechanics of the world she lives in: "Ladies and gentlemen, I give you an unsuccessful sense motive check."

[Chronicled]

The only thing you can really fault her for is the conversation with the guy dragging his brother, and I tack that up to not understanding standard procedure for getting ressed. And as other people have pointed out, she's walking right by a Policeman and several other civilians. If no one else is panicking, it's possible those strange humans are used to this (in DnD terms, the circumstance bonuses were working against her). After all, in a world where violent deaths are temporary, how else are you going to get your deceased friend to a cleric?

Keep in mind that if the guy dragging his brother is supposedly suspicious, then what about Celia herself, with a human skeleton in the cart behind her? Yet no-one she's encountered has had a problem with that yet.

[NENAD]

Dragging corpses around might be commonplace in a world with Raise Dead spells.

[FujinAkari]

It is not definite how Sabine comes back.

True, but we can note that the return spell looks exactly like the departure spell, and is capable of bringing multiple people (which a Summon Spell couldn't)


If we are allowing good/bad luck, the 5 miles away is there for game convenience, not as a minimum.

No, the spell quite clearly says that you will arrive between five and two hundred miles from your intended destination, making it a minimum. This is, of course, irrelevant, as the spell very clearly ignores this restriction in OOTS, but claiming that "5 - 200" means "0 - 200" is, quite simply, a bad argument :P


However, we know there is something wrong with this statement. Plane Shift would not bring Celia into Roy's arms, just somewhere in the general area if she was on a different plane.

Only if Plane Shift worked as written in the SRD. When Canon butts heads with SRD, then Canon wins. The proper conclusion is not to say Celia doesn't understand how magic works, but that Rich has houseruled away the SRD restriction.

[Halvormerlinaky]

I'd say that 579 pretty much says OWNED to those who believe that Celia is acting out of character here. I think that Rich payed a lot of attention to this thread while writing the strip, or maybe he just assumed it would happen, having learned from the Miko threads.

[Kish]

The difference is Elan was shown to be a complete idiot from the first time you see him and Celia has not. It doesn't bother people when an idot acts moronic
And yet when Elan believed Banjo really was talking to the orcs, people protested that he was being uncharacteristically stupid.

[DigoDragon]

Re DigoDragon:
While not denying that it's possible that she's head-over-heels blinded by love, I find that idea not to be in keeping with her character. I think its more of an issue that she thinks she knows what she's doing based on faulty assumptions of how the world works.

I feel it would make for a more convincing viewpoint if it was a combination of multiple situational modifiers. Not only is Celia nieve to the inner workings of human society, her love for Roy makes her want to believe that seeing Grubwiggler would get Roy back even if that possibility is rather unlikely. :smallsmile:

Celia's love for Roy has to be a significant factor, otherwise I can't see why she'd stick around outside her element for so long.

[AceOfFools]

I feel it would make for a more convincing viewpoint if it was a combination of multiple situational modifiers. Not only is Celia nieve to the inner workings of human society, her love for Roy makes her want to believe that seeing Grubwiggler would get Roy back even if that possibility is rather unlikely. :smallsmile:

Celia's love for Roy has to be a significant factor, otherwise I can't see why she'd stick around outside her element for so long.

I agree wholeheartedly to the first part (and to the second less wholehearted), but felt it worth noting: When has she had the option to get back into her element?

[Kish]

I agree wholeheartedly to the first part (and to the second less wholehearted), but felt it worth noting: When has she had the option to get back into her element?
She can fly. There's absolutely nothing stopping her from shrugging at Haley and flying away.

[Samurai Jill]

Well the FAQ, which has not been seriously updated in 3 years or so, includes "I already know what the last panel of the last comic will be,". There are similar statements here and there.
But where's the proof he had the ending planned to the last detail before the first strip was inked, as you claimed?

See...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...07#post4390407
Your link seems to give a 404.

Actually- yeah, in paladin blues it says 'even as late as strip 200... the idea of Miko as a romantic foil for Roy persisted.' So what you say can't be true.

[FujinAkari]

But where's the proof he had the ending planned to the last detail before the first strip was inked, as you claimed?

From the F.A.Q:


Q:How long will OOTS last? How far in advance do you have OOTS planned?

A: Pretty damn far. I have ideas for story arcs that will last at least five years, though I don't have individual strips written more than a few days or weeks ahead. Keep in mind that although OOTS has a joke-a-day, it has plotlines that are set up far in advance of their resolution. OOTS does indeed have a finite lifespan, however, and I already know what the last panel of the last comic will be, so don't expect it to linger around forever.

[Kish]

Actually- yeah, in paladin blues it says 'even as late as strip 200... the idea of Miko as a romantic foil for Roy persisted.' So what you say can't be true.
I don't understand why people argue that "Miko was meant to be (and was) a temporary romantic foil for Roy" is equivalent to "Miko was planned to be Roy's long-term love interest and to occupy the place now held by Celia."

[FujinAkari]

I don't understand why people argue that "Miko was meant to be (and was) a temporary romantic foil for Roy" is equivalent to "Miko was planned to be Roy's long-term love interest and to occupy the place now held by Celia."

Agreed... its a pretty silly thought process. Rich himself explicitly denies any such intention (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4390407#post4390407)

[NENAD]

But where's the proof he had the ending planned to the last detail before the first strip was inked, as you claimed?

Your link seems to give a 404.

Actually- yeah, in paladin blues it says 'even as late as strip 200... the idea of Miko as a romantic foil for Roy persisted.' So what you say can't be true.

The link is broken, however I'm guessing it links to the thread where the Giant himself says that he did, in fact, intend for there to be some light romantic comedy between Miko and Roy, however it was never intended to go past strip 250 (or so), and that her untimely demise in the rubble of Azure City, and everything that led up to that, was planned since her introduction. In other words, the link FujinAkari posted.

[David Argall]

But where's the proof he had the ending planned to the last detail before the first strip was inked, as you claimed?
You exaggerate the level of detail claimed. The original discussion was a claim that our writer wrote the story on a scrip by scrip basis. I pointed out that while there will be detours along the way, the trip is pretty much planned out, and the destination decided on.


Your link seems to give a 404.
The link is available several other places in this thread, but to quote directly



OK, so let's clear something up: This mythological notion that Miko was originally intended to be the indefinite romantic interest for Roy is pure fantasy and unfounded speculation. Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character. Of course, I couldn't SAY that in the notes to Paladin Blues, because none of that had happened yet. There was never an intention for there to be a relationship with Roy, merely a few clumsy attempts on Roy's part to start one, followed by a rebuff and the Order's capture. Miko was always a "villain", and I did not intend for Roy to have a long-running relationship with a villain, merely to make her an appealing enough antagonist that some people were rooting for her.

Please, if you're going to bash my writing, do so for what I actually wrote, not some concocted dream of what you think I should have written. There were never going to be 500+ strips of romantic comedy, just two dozen or so before the character started down the slippery slope of self-righteousness to her endpoint in the rubble of Azure City.



Actually- yeah, in paladin blues it says 'even as late as strip 200... the idea of Miko as a romantic foil for Roy persisted.' So what you say can't be true.
What you say is comforting in a way since I have argued the same point, back before we had more definitive information. But now we do have that more definitive information and so we must abandon such an idea.

[Samurai Jill]

I don't understand why people argue that "Miko was meant to be (and was) a temporary romantic foil for Roy" is equivalent to "Miko was planned to be Roy's long-term love interest and to occupy the place now held by Celia."
Well, the inn scene was first supposed to be light romantic comedy, but it got changed. That's different from the Giant originally planning to have Roy/Miko break up around strip 250...


You exaggerate the level of detail claimed.
Uh, no, I don't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4609605&postcount=66).

This is true of a lot of strips, but we are told, with no reason to doubt it, that the final comic for OOTS was effectively inked before the first one was started.

[FujinAkari]

Uh, no, I don't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4609605&postcount=66).

...

Does your method of argument entail that you will simply ignore proof if it opposes your view on events? You're still arguing with David even though I already quoted the F.A.Q. to you where the giant says "I already know what the last panel of the last strip will be." which is precisely the proof you were demanding...

[Samurai Jill]

You're still arguing with David even though I already quoted the F.A.Q. to you where the giant says "I already know what the last panel of the last strip will be." which is precisely the proof you were demanding...
Uh, no, it wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4629438&postcount=115).

But where's the proof he had the ending planned to the last detail before the first strip was inked, as you claimed?
Does you method of argument entail ignoring previous questions in favour of those you can actually answer, then criticising the asker for your own mistake?

There's no evidence Rich had the ending of the entire strip planned back when OOTS No. 1 was drawn. Which is what David claimed.

[FujinAkari]

There's no evidence Rich had the ending of the entire strip planned back when OOTS No. 1 was drawn. Which is what David claimed.

... Yes there is.

"it has plotlines that are set up far in advance of their resolution. OOTS does indeed have a finite lifespan, however, and I already know what the last panel of the last comic will be, so don't expect it to linger around forever."

If the Giant knows exactly how the strip will end back when he first started writing it, it necessarily follows that he has the ending planned.

:rolleyes:

Are you nitpicking that the F.A.Q. was originally posted at the same time as OOTS #1 and so that isn't proof that he had it planned before he posted OOTS #1, but instead posted the first strip and THEN planned the rest of the plotline? Because that seems like a pretty silly argument :P

[Samurai Jill]

Are you nitpicking that the F.A.Q. was originally posted at the same time as OOTS #1 and so that isn't proof that he had it planned before he posted OOTS #1, but instead posted the first strip and THEN planned the rest of the plotline? Because that seems like a pretty silly argument :P
I'm glad we have an understanding.
And he might have planned the ending of the strip at any time before the FAQ was posted.
paladin blues said something about strip 13..?

Tthe fact is David said something that he doesn't have evidence for. That bugs me.

[NENAD]

But it's effectively the same both ways. I'm guessing that Rich didn't have the whole strip planned out from #1, actually. A lot of it seems too ad hoc, like he didn't really know where he was going with it. The strip with Elan using Summon Plot Exposition (or some such) seemed like it was tacked on afterwords because Rich didn't know why they were in the dungeon until after he'd already put them there. My guess is that by the time they were done with Dorukan's Dungeon, Rich had everything planned out, but he didn't have everything planned (except perhaps the very last panel, if it's some specific gag or ending or something) from strip #1.

That's just a guess, though.

[Samurai Jill]

I pretty well agree with you here. Think the early strips have a much more rough-and-ready feel to them compared with the more plot-heavy strips later on.

[Kish]

Well, the inn scene was first supposed to be light romantic comedy, but it got changed. That's different from the Giant originally planning to have Roy/Miko break up around strip 250...
That's unrelated to Rich planning to have Roy/Miko break up (if you can call it that) around strip 250, actually. The inn sequence could be light romantic comedy, or what it was, or something else. Roy and Miko could cease to be on remotely friendly terms around strip 250 or not, whether the preceding inn sequence was light romantic comedy or not. You're arguing for a contradiction where there isn't one, and I'm not sure why.

On the other argument here, you're right, the last strip was not planned when the first one was started. Rich started out planning a gag-a-day comic and switched to plot around strip #13. That's in Dungeon Crawling Fools.

[brilliantlight]

Dragging corpses around might be commonplace in a world with Raise Dead spells.

That is a good pont that I never thought of. It does lessen the stupidity of Celia when you take that into account.

[David Argall]

And he might have planned the ending of the strip at any time before the FAQ was posted.
paladin blues said something about strip 13..?
But don't you see how trivial the difference between what you are admitting to and what you are claiming is not shown? We are talking about 1000+ strips. There is a difference between 1 & 13 when we are talking that scale?
Particularly when there is clearly a very large set of negative numbers to add in as well. Our writer spent quite a bit of time stewing over the characters in the party, obviously before strip 1. [Roy was supposed to be a mage at first.]
Then we have the point that the last page is very often the first page written, at least in outline. If you don't know where the plot is going to go, you can have a very hard time getting anywhere. Then we have evidence very early that he is thinking quite far in the future. #9 has the magic belt, which doesn't appear again until 233. [It's role changed from original plans, but whatever the original plan, the writer was thinking that far ahead.]


Tthe fact is David said something that he doesn't have evidence for. That bugs me.
Get used to it. We have a total of about 600 pages of evidence [which may be a major exaggeration. Our pictures are not worth a thousand words, certainly not each.] And nearly all of it will be irrelevant to any given discussion. So on any given subject, we start with entirely inadequate evidence. We are routinely faced with a choice of saying nothing or drawing deductions without a rock-solid basis. Granted, many of us here are satisfied with a trivial basis, but we can't have much conversation here if we insist on proof to the tenth decimal point.
Limit yourself to what is wrong, not what is not fully proven and you will be happier.


Uh, no, it wasn't.
Uh, no, I don't.
A denial and a repeat of a post is not valid argument in most cases. One needs to explain.



I'm guessing that Rich didn't have the whole strip planned out from #1, actually.
This depends on definition. As already noted, he was looking over 200 strips ahead at a minimum. And we have no good reason to think the plot wasn't already blocked out to well past the current point. On the other hand, many of us assume V had a definite sex up until about 9 or so, and only then was it realized that an indefinite one was comic gold, and immediately adopted. So future plans are flexible, but have been there for as long as we have records.


The strip with Elan using Summon Plot Exposition (or some such) seemed like it was tacked on afterwords because Rich didn't know why they were in the dungeon until after he'd already put them there.
You are talking about strip 13, but we already have him bringing up elements that assume a post dungeon story. That does not sound tacked on.
A common plan is to have a start with the introduction of the main characters, which is what the first dozen strips more or less do. Then the plot is revealed, as with 13. So what reason do we have to consider this "tacked on"?

[NENAD]

Do we have any particular reason to believe that Rich actually intended to use the belt again in strip 9 when Elan took it with him, or is it possible he just thought it would be funny for Elan to take it and then realized a similarly funny application later on?

And the very, very basic Dorukan's Dungeon plot does not reflect any of the complexity of the Azure City plotlines, or even the concept that the gate might be anything other than the seal on some Sealed Evil in a Can (which it is, but I'm saying that's all Rich really knew about it at the time; the concept of the Snarl hadn't really ocurred to him yet). Also, this is how most of my writings go. I'll come up with a basic idea (i.e. I should do a D&D parody comic!), spend, maybe thirty minutes fleshing out the basic concept while intentionally trying to keep it light and comedic, and avoid any heavy drama because it's intended to be gag-a-day or something similar (i.e. the characters are loosely hammered out, including the decision to make Roy a fighter, but nothing specific or long-reaching), and then once I get going it'll evolve rapidly and significantly.

Whether or not my creative process is similar to Rich's is anyone's guess, of course, but the evolution of this comic looks exactly like the evolution of similar things I've done (except that Rich didn't abandon it in the middle of the Battle of Azure City, which is, dramatically speaking, about where I abandoned mine).

[Warren Dew]

Do we have any particular reason to believe that Rich actually intended to use the belt again in strip 9 when Elan took it with him, or is it possible he just thought it would be funny for Elan to take it and then realized a similarly funny application later on?

I don't think we have any particular reason to believe it, and I'm surprised so many people assume that we do. I think it's primarily a funny way to help characterize Elan. I do think the belt's potential use in future gags was a secondary reason, even if the specific use hadn't been thought of yet.

[Samurai Jill]

Roy and Miko could cease to be on remotely friendly terms around strip 250 or not, whether the preceding inn sequence was light romantic comedy or not. You're arguing for a contradiction where there isn't one, and I'm not sure why.
Oh, I don't know, because it seem highly unlikely that Roy/Miko's romantic interest would have been so strained if the Inn sequence had't revolved around assassins blowing up everything? Besides, Rich actually says that Miko was a potential love interest right up strip 200. So he can't have planned for Roy's exclusive fling with Celia before then.


There is a difference between 1 & 13 when we are talking that scale?
It appears to be all the difference between fact and conjecture.

Get used to it... ...Limit yourself to what is wrong, not what is not fully proven and you will be happier.
David, if you had opened your statement with "I think" or "it seems likely" or even "I would infer", that would be one thing. What you actually did was not only state this as a bald fact without confirmation, but put your own unfounded assertion into the mouth of the author. When he never said such a thing.

A denial and a repeat of a post is not valid argument in most cases. One needs to explain.
Odd, I would have thought the very person who made those statements in the first place would remember them. I'll just recap:


... we are told, with no reason to doubt it, that the final comic for OOTS was effectively inked before the first one was started.

When were 'we' told that? He certainly hasn't told me.

Well the FAQ, which has not been seriously updated in 3 years or so, includes "I already know what the last panel of the last comic will be,". There are similar statements here and there.

But where's the proof he had the ending planned to the last detail before the first strip was inked, as you claimed?

You exaggerate the level of detail claimed...

Uh, no, I don't. [links to first quote.]

[NENAD]

Strip 200 was Miko's introduction. Miko's entire plotline was planned out from square one. The only thing that was changed was that the inn sequence went from light romantic comedy (that involved mostly Miko rejecting Roy, it would seem) to dealing with some assassins. Miko was never, ever intended to be a long term love interest for Roy and the Giant has said so himself!

[Samurai Jill]

Strip 200 was Miko's introduction. Miko's entire plotline was planned out from square one.
Uhh... in that case, it logically follows that Rich had plans for Miko prior to strip 200 (and she actually makes several appearances before then.) It also logically follows that he changed his mind about her role in the plot at some point after 200. I'm sorry, you can't be a "potential love interest" if Roy was predestined to fall from Celia from day one. That simply doesn't make sense.

[Vulion]

Not to rock the boat...okay, I'm totally trying to rock the boat but I think this argument is getting a little off-topic and personally, a bit petty.

Now, I have posted before in this thread but I shall repeat my opinions. I don't think Celia is an naggy airhead, I think she is a person in an unfamiliar situation and that some people expect to know way too much.

[Kish]

Uhh... in that case, it logically follows that Rich had plans for Miko prior to strip 200 (and she actually makes several appearances before then.) It also logically follows that he changed his mind about her role in the plot at some point after 200. I'm sorry, you can't be a "potential love interest" if Roy was predestined to fall from Celia from day one. That simply doesn't make sense.
Rich said, "Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character."

Rich also said, "even as late as strip 200... the idea of Miko as a romantic foil for Roy persisted." At least, I presume he said it; you quoted it, I'm taking your word for it.

I don't see a contradiction there. If you do, how you reconcile it is entirely up to you. You can even ignore one of them if you like; that's what you appear to be doing.

[Samurai Jill]

Kish, you cannot be a potential love interest if, at no point in the future, is there any reciprocal romantic relationship, and there hasn't been. (You might as well call Belkar a "potential peace activist".) Clearly something changed.

Anyways. How does this affect Celia?- well, I imagine it's possible that at some point the degree of her relationship with Roy was altered to 'fill the void' left by Miko. But it's impossible to tell how far, or when the change as made- if it was made, and we don't have any definite statements on the matter. There, I'm done.

[Kish]

So you're saying Rich is lying when he says Miko's fall and the subsequent events were planned out before strip #200. Okay. That's fine. I hope you at least recognize that "romantic foil" doesn't have all the same letters in the same order as "love interest."

[The Extinguisher]

The limit of Miko being a love interest was to be hit on by Roy, then to refject him, and haul him off in chains.

There was no relationship planned. Ever.

[David Argall]

Do we have any particular reason to believe that Rich actually intended to use the belt again in strip 9 when Elan took it with him, or is it possible he just thought it would be funny for Elan to take it and then realized a similarly funny application later on?
But why is it funny for Elan to take it? For joke purposes, the strip is a distinctly inferior one. It gets its value from the foreshadowing.
Our author has shown a persistent habit of distant forshadowing. In the case of Haley and her dad, it's been going on for 400 strips, and may reach 600. Thinking he is looking ahead 200 strips is entirely consistent with his behavior. We might argue he did not need to have a particular use in mind at that point, but it obviously was going to see future use, and that use almost had to be after they left the dungeon. So he was already thinking in wider circles than just the dungeon.


And the very, very basic Dorukan's Dungeon plot does not reflect any of the complexity of the Azure City plotlines, or even the concept that the gate might be anything other than the seal on some Sealed Evil in a Can (which it is, but I'm saying that's all Rich really knew about it at the time; the concept of the Snarl hadn't really ocurred to him yet).
You are essentially saying you know our writer's mind better than he does, and pretty much that he lies about it.
As to the early plot not showing much of the overall plot, why should it? In fact, there are advantages to it not. In particular, it would have allowed him to quit gracefully if the comic had not gotten enough fans or if he decided he didn't want to continue it. [Plot heavy strips are very much a pain that way. Just as you get seriously interested, the strips stop showing up. Ugh.]



Also, this is how most of my writings go. I'll come up with a basic idea ... and then once I get going it'll evolve rapidly and significantly.

Mine is often much the same way [and no, I am not saying whether readers pay or are paid to read my stuff.], which allows me to see a difference here.
I put a random element in a story, say making a lass a redhead. Now any time thereafter I may notice "Say... there are sterotypes about redheads. Should I play that up in the current scene?" Now looking at this from the outside, it can look a lot like I planned this from the start even tho I didn't.
But compare that with our Belt of Sex Change. It's a whole strip, not just a little detail I fill in in a larger scene. I introduce a woman to the scene, I pretty much have to give some details about her, and hair color ranks high on that list. Our belt of sex change is quite different. It is descriptive of itself.
In other words, I would never put a belt of sex change into the story unless I planned on having it used. This is gun on the mantle stuff. The writer went to a good deal of trouble to put it into the story, and he had some intention to have it used.



because it seem highly unlikely that Roy/Miko's romantic interest would have been so strained if the Inn sequence had't revolved around assassins blowing up everything? Besides, Rich actually says that Miko was a potential love interest right up strip 200. So he can't have planned for Roy's exclusive fling with Celia before then.
Essentially you are trying to claim our writer never uses sloppy language. He's human. He did. He said things he didn't really mean. In some cases that may have even been deliberate in order to save surprises in the strip. But in others he just used the wrong words in the wrong way.
Miko was a love interest. But there is nothing there that says she would remain one. That the affair ended before it can really said to have started doesn't mean Miko was not a love interest.



What you actually did was not only state this as a bald fact without confirmation, but put your own unfounded assertion into the mouth of the author. When he never said such a thing.
Now observe that you just did precisely what you are denouncing me for. You in fact have nothing close to a full file of our writer's comments and so can definitely not say he never said such a thing.
Moreover, the evidence supplied so far argues that he did say such a thing. We can argue the evidence is not conclusive, but it is clearly suggestive.



DCA Quote:
A denial and a repeat of a post is not valid argument in most cases. One needs to explain.

Odd, I would have thought the very person who made those statements in the first place would remember them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
You exaggerate the level of detail claimed...
Now notice the ... You are clipping out the supporting argument, which is what I am pointing out you failed to supply for your position.
Thus I said "A is wrong, because B..."
You essentially said "A is wrong." So you need to supply B.


you cannot be a potential love interest if, at no point in the future, is there any reciprocal romantic relationship,
A love interest does not need to reciprocate, or even know the lover exists. In fact, it is quite common in comedy for her to be extremely hostile.


, I imagine it's possible that at some point the degree of her relationship with Roy was altered to 'fill the void' left by Miko. But it's impossible to tell how far, or when the change as made- if it was made, and we don't have any definite statements on the matter.
But we do, and have quoted here at least 4 times. The author has said it. The romance was to end at about 250. There was no void left by Miko to fill.
Now I will agree that Celia is a grossly inferior romantic interest compared to what Miko could have been, but the point is settled. Celia was intended to be the love interest in Azure City a long time before the party reached Azure City.