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quick_comment
2008-07-27, 09:53 AM
I apologize for using the bugmenot account to make a post but my work has all web mail blocked. So I would be unable to register.

I've been searching and searching for a free 10' move feat or something so that my character can get skirmish (requires 10' move) bonus and be able to rapid shot (full attack action). Anyone know of a free 10' move?

jcsw
2008-07-27, 10:14 AM
I apologize for using the bugmenot account to make a post but my work has all web mail blocked. So I would be unable to register.

I've been searching and searching for a free 10' move feat or something so that my character can get skirmish (requires 10' move) bonus and be able to rapid shot (full attack action). Anyone know of a free 10' move?

Travel Devotion, from Complete Champion allows you to move your normal speed as a swift action once/round for 1 minute(10rounds) a day, or more if you're a cleric and have turn undead attempts to spend.

Abstruse
2008-07-27, 10:41 AM
Technically being a specialist conjurer and taking the PHB2 ability means you can "abrupt jaunt" (i.e., teleport 10') up to (INT bonus) times per day. Of course, if you're going down that road you may not wish to waste caster levels in scout.

Seffbasilisk
2008-07-27, 11:06 AM
I can't find it at the moment, but there was an Xendrick roller skate....

Set of boots that let you take a 10' step instead of a 5' step amoung other things.

Edit: Found'm.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a

Cyran Gliding boots. 3/day can take a 10' step. Full round skirmish then.

Walken
2008-07-27, 01:52 PM
<- OP

Thanks for the suggestions, those shoes sound like great fun for the role-play aspect.

Chronos
2008-07-27, 01:57 PM
Going the other way, you could just take a normal move action, and then use Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to let fly all of your arrows as a single standard action.

RTGoodman
2008-07-27, 02:03 PM
I don't have the book, but every time this topic comes up someone mentions that there's an item in the (3.0) Arms & Equipment Guide called the "Sparring Dummy of the Master" or something like that that, after training with it, lets you take 10-foot steps instead of 5-foot steps. (It might only work for Monks or something, though, so someone else'll have to clarify.)

Also, I think it was the 3.0 Oriental Adventures book that allowed a 10-foot step with a relatively high Tumble check (30? 40? I'm not sure...).

Covered In Bees
2008-07-27, 02:12 PM
<- OP

Thanks for the suggestions, those shoes sound like great fun for the role-play aspect.

Don't fool yourself, you're interested in this so you can get Skirmish on full attacks.
Which is reasonable, as Skirmish is weak without that.

The best way is to take a level of cleric. That way you can trade the Travel domain in for the Travel Devotion feat, and (then or later, depending on level) take Extra Turning as a regular feat. With, say, 2 normal Turn Undead uses (8 CHA) and the 4 from Extra Turning sacrificed to power Travel Devotion, you can use it 4 times per day, which is as many times as you should need it. .

If you don't care about flavor concerns, take the Undeath domain, which grants Extra Turning as a bonus feat. Other good (and more fitting) candidates include Time (Improved Initiative for free), Celerity (+10' movement speed), Luck (free reroll), Charm (the +4 charisma once a day will grant you two temporary turn attempts, which replace the need for Turn Undead), Liberation (reroll each failed save vs. charm, compulsion, or fear once), and Pride (whenever you roll a 1 on a saving throw, reroll it once).

Gorbash
2008-07-27, 02:15 PM
I don't have the book, but every time this topic comes up someone mentions that there's an item in the (3.0) Arms & Equipment Guide called the "Sparring Dummy of the Master" or something like that that, after training with it, lets you take 10-foot steps instead of 5-foot steps. (It might only work for Monks or something, though, so someone else'll have to clarify.)

Also, I think it was the 3.0 Oriental Adventures book that allowed a 10-foot step with a relatively high Tumble check (30? 40? I'm not sure...).

Key word: 3.0. Scouts are 3.5.

Walken
2008-07-27, 02:27 PM
Don't fool yourself, you're interested in this so you can get Skirmish on full attacks.


Because someone that has read 2 of my posts knows I don't like role-playing at all and only care about doing as much rolling as possible. /sarcasm

And as for taking a level in cleric it doesn't really fit my character.


Going the other way, you could just take a normal move action, and then use Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to let fly all of your arrows as a single standard action.

I really want this so I can Rapid Shot, Manyshot/Greater Manyshot, Skirmish full action.

Yeah, I realize I just contradicted myself >.>

RTGoodman
2008-07-27, 02:29 PM
Key word: 3.0. Scouts are 3.5.

Yeah, but isn't the rule that, unless it was errata'd or reprinted in 3.5, anything from 3.0 still works? I don't think either of those were reprinted (and I know people that still use Oriental Adventures even with 3.5), so they should be fine.

Gorbash
2008-07-27, 02:39 PM
No, actually, it works only if it was errata'd. Bunch of books didn't get reprinted, and still nobody uses them. No point in using, say, prestige classes from Masters of the Wild, when there's Complete Adventurer. It's the same way with equipment, since now we have a lot of it scattered around splatbooks

The Demented One
2008-07-27, 03:29 PM
The swift jump maneuver from Tome of Battle is first level, and lets you jump as a swift action. You could take a level of Swordsage or Warblade to get it, or just get it with feats.

Walken
2008-07-27, 03:44 PM
The swift jump maneuver from Tome of Battle is first level, and lets you jump as a swift action. You could take a level of Swordsage or Warblade to get it, or just get it with feats.

How do you get that with feats and on another note how would you multi-class with ToB? Its quite different.

Ascension
2008-07-27, 04:01 PM
How do you get that with feats and on another note how would you multi-class with ToB? Its quite different.

Multiclassing with the ToB classes is actually quite easy, since you get to add half of your non-ToB levels to your initiator level. There are also feats in ToB that will grant you a single maneuver or stance, if you don't want to actually take a level in one of the ToB classes.

Also, if you take some Swordsage levels in addition to your Scout levels and specialize in Shadow Hand maneuvers, you'll eventually gain the ability to teleport up to 50', first as a standard action, then move, eventually swift... but if you take enough Swordsage levels to get it as a swift action you've probably taken too many for skirmish to really be effective...

...now a gestalt Shadow Hand Swordsage/Scout, that'd be a sight to see! :smallbiggrin:

Rashmi
2008-07-27, 04:04 PM
How do you get that with feats and on another note how would you multi-class with ToB? Its quite different.

1) You take Martial Strike, the feat that explicitly lets you use a Manuever.

2) You take a level of a class. {Scrubbed}

Walken
2008-07-27, 05:30 PM
2) You take a level of a class. {Scrubbed}

No I don't have the book but thanks for the flame. I'll make sure to never ask questions again.

Rashmi
2008-07-27, 06:31 PM
No I don't have the book but thanks for the flame. I'll make sure to never ask questions again.

Who was flaming? I asked if you had the book. Not my fault you were commenting on something you had no knowledge of.

If I jumped into a White Wolf thread I wouldn't think it was flaming to be asked if I had the books or read the rules (I haven't.)

Shades of Gray
2008-07-27, 08:05 PM
You can use a 5-foot step.

For the other 5 feet. I suggest Elocater (Expanded Psionics)

Or Martial Study: Press the advantage (Feat. Tome of Battle. Gives you an extra 5-foot step)

nargbop
2008-07-27, 10:45 PM
There's an item in the DMG, I believe it's called the Sparring Dummy of the Master. Stupid name, long training period, silly-expensive, but when you're done you get to take a 10 foot free step where you could take a 5 foot free step before.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-27, 11:12 PM
No, actually, it works only if it was errata'd.
Sorry, Gorbash, but you need to read page 4 of your 3.5 DMG for the official word on this matter. Most things from 3.0 are fine unless they have 3.5 replacements, or there's an inherent conflict with 3.5 rules. There's no such conflict for the 10' Tumble adjustment in place of the normal 5' step, so it's still a part of the official 3rd edition D&D game as updated.

There's an item in the DMG, I believe it's called the Sparring Dummy of the Master. Stupid name, long training period, silly-expensive, but when you're done you get to take a 10 foot free step where you could take a 5 foot free step before. rtg0922 already pointed out that this item is in Arms and Equipment Guide, not the DMG. Also, it requires at least 1 Monk level to use. You could make the device work for you without Monk levels if you could succeed on Use Magic Device checks to emulate every pertinent class feature of a 1st level Monk -- but you'd need to make successful DC 21 checks for each hour of training, 224 times in a row, without ever failing. So basically we're talking only real Monks, and a very few high-level characters with a +20 UMD modifier. Rogues, anyone? :smallsmile:

Chronos
2008-07-27, 11:45 PM
Rogues, anyone?Or, you know, scouts? Considering the topic of this thread, and all?

Or, for that matter, warlocks with a mere +11 UMD check.

Talic
2008-07-27, 11:47 PM
I believe the Elocater PrC (from Expanded Psionics handbook, I believe) has the ability to take a free 10' step. Was gonna use it with skirmish once.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-28, 02:17 AM
Rogues, anyone?
Or, you know, scouts? Considering the topic of this thread, and all? Gee, I thought that went without saying; apparently not. My quote was an allusion to this feat:
Swift Ambusher

Benefit: Your rogue and scout levels stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage and bonus to Armor Class granted when skirmishing.

jcsw
2008-07-28, 07:07 AM
And as for taking a level in cleric it doesn't really fit my character

If that's referring to my Travel Devotion suggestion, note that you don't need to be a cleric to use it. Being a cleric simply gives more uses/day and the ability to have more than one domain feat.

Walken
2008-07-28, 07:44 AM
Gee, I thought that went without saying; apparently not. My quote was an allusion to this feat: Swift Ambusher
I took Swift Hunter: Same thing but Scout/Ranger


If that's referring to my Travel Devotion suggestion, note that you don't need to be a cleric to use it. Being a cleric simply gives more uses/day and the ability to have more than one domain feat.

Yeah, but once per day is kinda silly at that point, more beneficial to take something else and just do all my attacks without skirmish.

Taking a feat that I can use once per day and then rolling on chance that I will hit the enemy and then failing is a total downer.

Arbitrarity
2008-07-28, 08:51 AM
I really want this so I can Rapid Shot, Manyshot/Greater Manyshot, Skirmish full action.

Yeah, I realize I just contradicted myself >.>

Not... "Manyshot (full BAB-2), manyshot (Full BAB -2, rapid shot), manyshot(BAB-7), as a full round action, eh? Because that's illegal, though you probably know that.

Person_Man
2008-07-28, 10:27 AM
Ways to qualify for Skirmish every turn. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3898866&postcount=21)

Aquillion
2008-07-28, 10:38 AM
Gee, I thought that went without saying; apparently not. My quote was an allusion to this feat:
Wait, wait, wait. Am I reading that wrong, or could you take one level of scout (or however many you need to qualify for the feat), then lots of levels of rogue, and stack full skirmish damage with nearly-full sneak attack damage?

That's sort of sick. I thought that usually, those 'stack' feats don't let you stack such a major feature. (Now, take one level of Factotum at 1st level, and Able Learner... then max Iaijutsu Focus, and you can stack three massive damage bonuses onto every hit, assuming you can work out a situation where they all apply.)

Burley
2008-07-28, 10:40 AM
Aight. The easiest way: Since we're already talking about the Complete Champion, I don't mind pointing out the brokens.
Take a level of Lion Totem Barbarian. You sacrifice your 10ft bonus to movement, which doesn't stack with the scout's anyways (so, who cares). In return you gain Pounce whenever you charge.
There, you get full attack on a charge, adding in your skirmish damage and the AC bonus will help offset the -2 AC from charging.

Duel Wield for that extra broken attack. Also, in the Complete...Scoundel(?) there is a feat that gives you an extra +2d6+2AC (or sommat like that) for free. Take that, too.

Congrats. Your character is second level and Big Ballin'.

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-28, 01:32 PM
There is a stance in the Tome of Battle that allows you to take a 10' adjustment any time you would be allowed a 5' adjustment. Unfortunately I don't have my book on me at the moment. I believe it's 4th or 5th level. As a stance, though, it would take you a minimum of two feats to learn without multiclassing.

I'll edit this post when I get my book back tomorrow... if someone doesn't beat me to it.

Edit:
FOUND IT!
Press the Advantage, 5th Level White Raven Stance
Prerequisite: Two White Raven Maneuvers
Essentially allows you an additional 5' step every round. Not really viable as a dip, though.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-28, 02:04 PM
Am I reading that wrong, or could you take one level of scout (or however many you need to qualify for the feat), then lots of levels of rogue, and stack full skirmish damage with nearly-full sneak attack damage?
You're reading that right, and it's 3 levels of Scout plus 1 level of Rogue to qualify for the feat. Right away you've got a limitation because these are both base classes and the multiclassing restrictions come into play. There's some waste, because you get trapfinding twice. You're 3 levels behind on most of your Rogue class features, including sneak attack. You do gain improved uncanny dodge at character level 7 instead of 8, but then you have a wasted feature at Rogue level 8. For this reason I'd recommend taking Disruptive Attack (PH2 page 57), even if you rarely find a use for this alternative class feature.

The important thing to realize is that skirmish is almost always going to be less powerful than sneak attack, and the Scout levels don't help your sneak attack with Swift Ambusher; instead they cost you 1-2 dice of sneak damage, always. The way you make up for this is to solve the full attack + skirmish problem. Rogue levels will eventually let you make either a reliable DC 40 Tumble check (for the 10' Tumble adjustment), or get you a +20 Use Magic Device modifier so you can train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master -- but it's going to hurt you for a lot of levels before you get there. (I recommend taking Skill Mastery at Rogue level 10, and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel pages 80-81) so you'll be able to "take 12" on Tumble checks.) Maybe you'll really want those Cyran Gliding Boots (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a), despite their limitations mostly outweighing their benefits. (Their speed enhancement doesn't stack with the one you get at Scout level 3. They're not cheap. Also you'll be forced to keep your Balance skill maxed out, but then you should know that you can make a Balance check to resist being tripped, so it's not a bad skill investment anyway (see Complete Adventurer page 97.))

If you're going to go for this approach, and buy either/both of Cyran Gliding Boots and Sparring Dummy of the Master, you'll also want to max out your Diplomacy skill so you can Haggle to buy at 9/10 of list price, and sell back at 10/9 of half list (Complete Adventurer pages 98-99). That way you'll only spend 15,155.56 gp instead of 22,000 gp when you buy both these items (total 44,000 gp), use them, and sell them back.

Swift Ambusher isn't a bad feat, but it is very specific. It pretty much forces you down the path I've outlined above, with race, alternative class feature, skill, and feat selections driven by this choice if you want to make the combination work. It's pretty much like why almost all Rogues use keen rapiers if they want to be effective in melee combat; just the consequences of Swift Ambusher are far more extensive.

Walken
2008-07-28, 02:52 PM
Ways to qualify for Skirmish every turn. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3898866&postcount=21)
It says you have to be at a different spot at the beginning of YOUR turn to skirmish. So a lot of those examples don't work.



Skirmish (Ex): A scout relies on mobility to deal extra
damage and improve her defense. She deals an extra
1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during
any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The extra
damage applies only to attacks taken during the scout’s
turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every four
levels gained above 1st (2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 9th, 4d6 at 13th,
and 5d6 at 17th level).



Not... "Manyshot (full BAB-2), manyshot (Full BAB -2, rapid shot), manyshot(BAB-7), as a full round action, eh? Because that's illegal, though you probably know that.

Actually it would be Manyshot (full BAB-6 (-4 from Manyshot -2 from Rapidshot)), Manyshot (full BAB-6: rapid shotted). So the dice roll would be something like this with a Greatbow persay.

Attack Rolls:
Manyshot¹: 2d20+BAB-6
Manyshot²: 2d20+BAB-6

Damage Rolls:
Manyshot¹: 2d10+3d6
Manyshot²: 2d10+3d6

Correct me, politely, if I'm wrong. Not entirely positive.

Griffin131
2008-07-28, 02:55 PM
It says you have to be at a different spot at the beginning of YOUR turn to skirmish. So a lot of those examples don't work.
No, what you quoted says any movement in the round counts, but only attacks in your turn during that round gain the bonus.
EDIT:
Nothing about having to be in a different spot.

Chronicled
2008-07-28, 02:58 PM
Swift Ambusher stuff

The redundancy can be avoided with Alternate Class Features. Scout/Rogue is a great way to get the superb Changling Rogue Substitution levels, while keeping everything you would have lost.

Walken
2008-07-28, 03:00 PM
No, what you quoted says any movement in the round counts, but only attacks in your turn during that round gain the bonus.
EDIT:
Nothing about having to be in a different spot.

My bad, I always read round and turn wrong... too many table top games...

Curmudgeon
2008-07-29, 05:43 PM
The redundancy can be avoided with Alternate Class Features. Scout/Rogue is a great way to get the superb Changling Rogue Substitution levels, while keeping everything you would have lost. Gee, didn't I make that point already? Why yes, I did indeed:
Swift Ambusher isn't a bad feat, but it is very specific. It pretty much forces you down the path I've outlined above, with race, alternative class feature, skill, and feat selections driven by this choice if you want to make the combination work.

Arbitrarity
2008-07-29, 05:50 PM
Correct me, politely, if I'm wrong. Not entirely positive.

You are. Manyshot is a standard action. You get one(1)/round. You can manyshot once. Manyshot is not an attack. It cannot replace another attack, such as an attack of opportunity (with, say, arrow mind). Its sole use is moving as a move action, then shooting many arrows as a standard action. You cannot full attack manyshot. You cannot make more than 1 manyshot per turn without more actions, i.e. swiftblade levels.

Therefore, take greater manyshot. It's a feat in the psionic section of the SRD, and it lets you apply precision damage to every arrow in a manyshot. Move as a move action, manyshot as a standard action (not an attack replacement: Massive difference.) and do skirmish on every arrow.

The difference between an attack and standard action:
Spells take a standard action to cast. Does this mean you can full attack casting spells? NO. Same thing with manyshot. Same thing with manuvers. Etc.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-29, 05:53 PM
No, what you quoted says any movement in the round counts, but only attacks in your turn during that round gain the bonus.
EDIT:
Nothing about having to be in a different spot. Here's what you need, and what Walken should have quoted: the Complete Adventurer text as revised by the official errata:
Page 12: Skirmish (class feature)
The second sentence of the skirmish class feature should read as follows (new text indicated in red):

She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet away from where she was at the start of her turn. The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted.

This update should be made wherever the skirmish ability description is presented (see also pages 31, 56, and 177). As the update specifies, you've got to be at least 10' away from where you started in order to enable skirmish damage.

Chronos
2008-07-29, 07:47 PM
As the update specifies, you've got to be at least 10' away from where you started in order to enable skirmish damage.Strictly speaking, you could move 10 feet one way, and then 10 feet back, and Skirmish would still activate, despite ending up in the same spot. You have moved 10 feet away from your starting location, and you're attacking after you did so.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-30, 09:03 AM
Strictly speaking, you could move 10 feet one way, and then 10 feet back, and Skirmish would still activate
This is true. However, it's not really pertinent to the matter of getting in full attacks with skirmish unless you can find a way to make a 20' total adjustment. But I suppose 7 levels of Elocater (to get capricious step) plus two DC 40 Tumble checks would accomplish this. You could match a dwarf's whole move action as "not an action". :smallcool:

Walken
2008-07-30, 09:05 AM
You are. Manyshot is a standard action. You get one(1)/round. You can manyshot once. Manyshot is not an attack. It cannot replace another attack, such as an attack of opportunity (with, say, arrow mind). Its sole use is moving as a move action, then shooting many arrows as a standard action. You cannot full attack manyshot. You cannot make more than 1 manyshot per turn without more actions, i.e. swiftblade levels.

Therefore, take greater manyshot. It's a feat in the psionic section of the SRD, and it lets you apply precision damage to every arrow in a manyshot. Move as a move action, manyshot as a standard action (not an attack replacement: Massive difference.) and do skirmish on every arrow.

Etc.

So you could Greater/Manyshot-> Regular Attack (Rapid shotted) and all get skirmish (if you can move 10') and get full attack? Or once you manyshot you lose full round action?


This is true. However, it's not really pertinent to the matter of getting in full attacks with skirmish unless you can find a way to make a 20' total adjustment. But I suppose 7 levels of Elocater (to get capricious step) plus two DC 40 Tumble checks would accomplish this. You could match a dwarf's whole move action as "not an action". :smallcool:

Thats for another day with another feat, Improved Skirmish, move 20' get +2d6 +2AC.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-30, 12:48 PM
So you could Greater/Manyshot-> Regular Attack (Rapid shotted) and all get skirmish (if you can move 10') and get full attack? Or once you manyshot you lose full round action?You can't make a full attack with Greater Manyshot, because it still uses Manyshot:
Manyshot [General]

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet.
... each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four). Also, even though Greater Manyshot requires Rapid Shot, you get no benefit from that feat.
Greater Manyshot [General]

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.
Rapid Shot [General]

You must use the full attack action to use this feat. So instead of a full attack at AB/AB-5/AB-10/AB-15 (base) or AB-2/AB-2/AB-7/AB-12/AB-17 (with Rapid Shot) you get 4 attacks at AB-8. This requires an investment of 4 feats. The tradeoff gets worse if you consider Haste. You'd still get 4 attacks, now at AB-7. But if you can make a 10' "not an action" adjustment, with Haste you'd get 6 attacks at AB-1/AB-1/AB-1/AB-6/AB-11/AB-16. Since the full attack + Rapid Shot + Haste option gives you 4 shots that are all more likely to hit than any of your Greater Manyshot attacks, plus 2 additional shots, the feat investment in Greater Manyshot doesn't seem like such a bargain. So that's one reason why I think it's a superior option to solve the 10' "not an action" adjustment problem and use full attacks, rather than go for Greater Manyshot. (The other reason, of course, is that a 10' adjustment allows both melee and ranged skirmishing.)

Just to repeat for those who weren't paying attention: Whenever you use Manyshot (including Greater Manyshot) you cannot use the full attack action, and that also means no Rapid Shot.

Frosty
2008-07-30, 01:39 PM
It's not much of a feat adjustment since you're going Ranger most of your career with a ranged Skirmisher anyways. Ranger has better BAB, and spellcasting. why stick with Scout for more than 3 to 5 levels?

Chronos
2008-07-30, 02:14 PM
This is true. However, it's not really pertinent to the matter of getting in full attacks with skirmish unless you can find a way to make a 20' total adjustment. But I suppose 7 levels of Elocater (to get capricious step) plus two DC 40 Tumble checks would accomplish this.Probably a lot easier to manifest Hustle to get an extra move action, and then make a normal full attack. And it might even be worthwhile, if you're fighting in melee in a narrow corridor, where the only direction you could move would be back.

Walken
2008-07-30, 02:41 PM
It's not much of a feat adjustment since you're going Ranger most of your career with a ranged Skirmisher anyways. Ranger has better BAB, and spellcasting. why stick with Scout for more than 3 to 5 levels?
Where was it ever stated that more than 3 levels of scout was happening?
Besides if you take Swift Hunter you would probably stop at 4th Scout for the bonus feat.

Frosty
2008-07-30, 02:43 PM
Sometime you stop at 5 because you get Evasion iirc.

Arbitrarity
2008-07-30, 04:04 PM
Ranger gives evasion too, but it takes much longer.

Frosty
2008-07-30, 04:32 PM
Right. You get Evasion twice, but you can trade in one of your Evasions the ability to reflect spells. If a ranged touch attack spell misses you, you turn it back at the caster.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-31, 09:39 AM
Probably a lot easier to manifest Hustle to get an extra move action, and then make a normal full attack.
Gee, if we're moving past the "free 10' move" options, isn't it easier to just buy a Belt of Battle or two? Each one can give you an extra move action 3 times a day. That's going to be a lot easier than 2-3 levels of a psionic base class, and the associated multiclassing restrictions that entails.

Frosty
2008-07-31, 10:09 AM
So what...you're only going to attack 6 to 9 times per day? Belts of battle are EXPENSIVE!

I'd rather dip cleric and take Travel devotion or just go Greater Manyshot.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-01, 10:34 AM
Belts of battle are EXPENSIVE!

I'd rather dip cleric and take Travel devotion And a whole level of a base class, with the multiclassing restrictions that entails, isn't expensive? Remember, we're already talking Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter, or Scout/Rogue with Swift Ambusher, here.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 10:40 AM
And a whole level of a base class, with the multiclassing restrictions that entails, isn't expensive? Remember, we're already talking Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter, or Scout/Rogue with Swift Ambusher, here.

I never play with multiclass penalties, and neither do my DMs. I don't know anyone that really bothers because it's a dumb rule. If you play with a DM that enforces it, then spend more feats to get more and more uses of Travel Devotion instead.

And hell, if you are already Scout/Ranger with wift Hunter, you DO NOT NEED TRAVEL DEVOTION! You can already fire off all your arrows as a Standard Action.

Walken
2008-08-01, 11:02 AM
I never play with multiclass penalties, and neither do my DMs. I don't know anyone that really bothers because it's a dumb rule. If you play with a DM that enforces it, then spend more feats to get more and more uses of Travel Devotion instead.

And hell, if you are already Scout/Ranger with wift Hunter, you DO NOT NEED TRAVEL DEVOTION! You can already fire off all your arrows as a Standard Action.

...

RAPID SHOT IS A FULL ACTION.
SKIRMISH REQUIRES 10' FROM WHERE YOU STARTED YOUR TURN.

ERGO, TRAVEL DEVOTION IS REQUIRED TO RAPID SHOT WITH SKIRMISH. (Or something else that grants 10' movement as a swift/immediate/free/non action.)

I do not have Greater/Manyshot

Sorry about the caps lock, it seemed required as this poster seemed to have not read the thread.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 11:27 AM
I was not referring to your character at my post. I would not Rapid Shot if I go Ranger/Scout.

Aquillion
2008-08-01, 11:37 AM
And also, as others have pointed out, there are advantages to using Rapid Shot over Greater Manyshot -- if you can. You get another attack, a higher to-hit overall (especially on the first few arrows, important when you're aiming at something hard to hit), and can benefit from Haste or similar effects that give additional attacks.

Considering that Greater Manyshot costs two feats, it makes sense to look into a way of getting Skirmish damage on a full attack, and using Rapid Shot instead. (Plus, this lets you skirmish into a full melee attack, too, if you have to for whatever reason -- even if you're not built for melee, the damage bonus could be enough to keep you useful.)

Frosty
2008-08-01, 12:11 PM
Then he'll need to be able to make those DC 40 tumble checks regularly. If you're super rich, go with a zillion Belts of Battle.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-01, 01:06 PM
DC 40 tumble?

Level 10, lets say. That's when full attacks become important, and when most of these builds are viable.
13(ranks)+6(Dex[18+2(level)+2(Item)])+2(Masterwork Item)+10(Magic Item)+2(Synergy)=33. You make the check on a 7 or better. I'm sure that could be boosted, but thats a minor investment(no feats) for as close to a max reward as I could find. Toss in a +4 Dex item, and you've got a 34. 2 feats can increase that to a 39, so that you succeed on a Nat 1, but Archery is pretty feat-intensive, so I wouldn't recommend that. You're already spending a significant chunk of WBL on the +10 tumble item, don't burn your feats, too. Take the 6-or-better and be happy with a 75% success at something that I'm sure was meant to be impossible.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:08 PM
DC 40 tumble?

Level 10, lets say. That's when full attacks become important, and when most of these builds are viable.
13(ranks)+6(Dex[18+2(level)+2(Item)])+2(Masterwork Item)+10(Magic Item)+2(Synergy)=33. You make the check on a 7 or better. I'm sure that could be boosted, but thats a minor investment(no feats) for as close to a max reward as I could find. Toss in a +4 Dex item, and you've got a 34. 2 feats can increase that to a 39, so that you succeed on a Nat 1, but Archery is pretty feat-intensive, so I wouldn't recommend that. You're already spending a significant chunk of WBL on the +10 tumble item, don't burn your feats, too. Take the 6-or-better and be happy with a 75% success at something that I'm sure was meant to be impossible.

And that's *if* your DM allows custom items. And even if you can make it 75% of the time, that means you're doing on average 25% less damage because 25% of the time you're failing. I'd rather shoot one less arrow and be able to do it 100% of the time.

Walken
2008-08-01, 05:05 PM
I was not referring to your character at my post. I would not Rapid Shot if I go Ranger/Scout.
Have you read this thread at all? Its about getting rapid shot and skirmish.

Well... a 10' adjustment or free movement to rapid shot and skirmish.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-01, 05:32 PM
And that's *if* your DM allows custom items. And even if you can make it 75% of the time, that means you're doing on average 25% less damage because 25% of the time you're failing. I'd rather shoot one less arrow and be able to do it 100% of the time. You achieve better Tumble results with Scout/Rogue and Swift Ambusher. Take Skill Mastery and you can "take 10" on all your Tumble checks. Add Savvy Rogue and you can "take 12" instead.

I'd rather not roll the dice when I can guarantee success. Sstoopidtallkid discounted the obvious feats like Skill Focus as not worth the investment, but Savvy Rogue is a feat that will keep adding benefits as you take more Rogue special abilities. (I particularly like how Savvy Rogue lets you leverage Crippling Strike to do STR damage even against foes who are otherwise immune to sneak attack.)

Sinfire Titan
2008-08-01, 06:31 PM
I took Swift Hunter: Same thing but Scout/Ranger



Yeah, but once per day is kinda silly at that point, more beneficial to take something else and just do all my attacks without skirmish.

Taking a feat that I can use once per day and then rolling on chance that I will hit the enemy and then failing is a total downer.

I'd like to address this error. Taking Travel Devotion grants you the ability to use an SLA 1/day (plus an additional time per day based on how many times you take the feat/spending turn undead to get extra uses). That SLA lasts for 1 minute, and allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action each round.

It is NOT a one use trick, as it lasts an entire minute per time you take the feat (or if you spend Turning).

And the best Scout build in terms of output is Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 15 with Swift Hunter, Travel Devotion, and TWFing. 7 attacks per turn, 5+ uses of Travel Devotion, and +6d6 to damage on each attack (more if you swap out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion).

Grabbing Destruction Devotion is a good idea too, as it cripples their AC, allowing you to hit more often with Skirmish damage.

Aquillion
2008-08-01, 08:14 PM
2(Masterwork Item)Ok, I'm game. What masterwork tool, exactly, do you envision working for tumble checks?

Keep in mind that if you're basing this on the "Tool, masterwork" in the equipment list that simply doesn't specify what skill it is for, then it must be worth exactly 50 gp and weigh precisely 1 pound.

Vexxation
2008-08-01, 08:38 PM
Ok, I'm game. What masterwork tool, exactly, do you envision working for tumble checks?

Keep in mind that if you're basing this on the "Tool, masterwork" in the equipment list that simply doesn't specify what skill it is for, then it must be worth exactly 50 gp and weigh precisely 1 pound.

Four separate 12.5 gold 4 ounce springs attached to the heel of the character's boots. Or, on their gauntlets/gloves if they do a handspring.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 01:51 AM
Four separate 12.5 gold 4 ounce springs attached to the heel of the character's boots. Or, on their gauntlets/gloves if they do a handspring. Pretty nifty, Vexxation! I'd buy that.

You can create any visualization you want for each masterwork tool. The important thing is that the tool must exist according to the standard D&D 3.5 rules. It's like "tech talk" in Star Trek or Stargate: SG-1 for how something works. It's just colorful description that accompanies the fact that such a thing must be possible, because the storytelling mechanics require it.

Aquillion
2008-08-02, 03:34 AM
Pretty nifty, Vexxation! I'd buy that.

You can create any visualization you want for each masterwork tool. The important thing is that the tool must exist according to the standard D&D 3.5 rules. It's like "tech talk" in Star Trek or Stargate: SG-1 for how something works. It's just colorful description that accompanies the fact that such a thing must be possible, because the storytelling mechanics require it.Erm? Where does it say that there must be a tool for every skill?

There's a very vague section giving rules for how you can apply a masterwork tool's bonus, if you have one that relates to your skill (it also notes, in passing, that there are masterwork tools that do not relate to any skill). But nowhere does it say that there is a masterwork tool for every skill, nor list what skills do have masterwork tools; like everything else not in the books, it is therefore a matter of DM call.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 03:46 AM
Erm? Where does it say that there must be a tool for every skill? It's in the Equipment chapter:
Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack. If you've got a job to do, buy the masterwork tool for that job. If the job involves a skill check, you get the bonus.

Aquillion
2008-08-02, 03:51 AM
It's in the Equipment chapter: If you've got a job to do, buy the masterwork tool for that job. If the job involves a skill check, you get the bonus.Yes, that's the section I was talking about. As I said, it's very vaguely worded, but it only says that using the masterwork tool in a job gives a +2 circumstance bonus to skill checks that are related to that tool, if any.

It doesn't specify which skill (or skills) the tool is meant to be be a "related skill check" for the one-pound tool; but this doesn't mean you can just assume that the masterwork tool is related to 'all skills'. It means it's up to DM interpretation, like anything else with unclear wording.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-02, 04:04 AM
Armor/Clothes specially made to be more flexible than normal? Special boots that provide a better footing?

Lot's of things you can come up with to justify a masterwork tool for tumble.

Aquillion
2008-08-02, 04:06 AM
Ah, no. Reading it again, in the context of the rest of the list, I will clear up one thing: It seems very clear that the description applies to one tool -- not a class of tools, or a range of tools. It doesn't say "these tools", it says "this tool"; every single other item in that part of the SRD refers to a specific class of functionally identical items, and there's nothing in the text that would give any reason to think masterwork tools are different.

That means that the 'tool for each skill' interpretation is certainly wrong -- there is one masterwork tool described by that paragraph, providing a bonus to one specific related skill check (if any). Exactly which skill it applies to is unclear, but I don't think it applies to all of them.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 04:18 AM
there is one masterwork tool described by that paragraph, providing a bonus to one specific related skill check (if any). Exactly which skill it applies to is unclear, but I don't think it applies to all of them. No problem. We want the masterwork tool specific to making 10' "not an action" adjustments. That job happens to require a Tumble check.

Walken
2008-08-03, 11:01 AM
I'd like to address this error. Taking Travel Devotion grants you the ability to use an SLA 1/day (plus an additional time per day based on how many times you take the feat/spending turn undead to get extra uses). That SLA lasts for 1 minute, and allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action each round.

It is NOT a one use trick, as it lasts an entire minute per time you take the feat (or if you spend Turning).

And the best Scout build in terms of output is Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 15 with Swift Hunter, Travel Devotion, and TWFing. 7 attacks per turn, 5+ uses of Travel Devotion, and +6d6 to damage on each attack (more if you swap out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion).

Grabbing Destruction Devotion is a good idea too, as it cripples their AC, allowing you to hit more often with Skirmish damage.
Whats the difference/advantage between dipping Cloistered Cleric over Non-Variant Cleric. Lore?

Curmudgeon
2008-08-03, 05:10 PM
Whats the difference/advantage between dipping Cloistered Cleric over Non-Variant Cleric. Lore? Read all about it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

Walken
2008-08-03, 05:47 PM
Read all about it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

So, one would take Cloistered Cleric to get bonus knowledge domain to take Knowledge Devotion for free, compared to a non-variant cleric.

Chronos
2008-08-03, 07:02 PM
Cloistered Cleric also lets you keep your skill points high, which is useful for a ranger/scout. And you have armor proficiencies anyway, and won't gain a point o BAB at 1st level, so you're not really losing anything.

As for masterwork tools, the generic 50 GP tool is only a guideline, and does not apply to every skill. If it did, then nobody would ever spring for the 500 GP masterwork alchemy lab, since they could get the same benefit from a single masterwork retort, or whatever. If there is a masterwork tool for a particular skill, it probably costs about 50 GP, but it might be more, and it might not exist at all.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-03, 09:14 PM
Cloistered Cleric also lets you keep your skill points high, which is useful for a ranger/scout. And you have armor proficiencies anyway, and won't gain a point o BAB at 1st level, so you're not really losing anything. Just hit points. :smallsmile: