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Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 12:52 PM
Okay, maybe the title is misleading. I don't really want to BREAK the Dread Necro, but I need to optimize it as heavily as possible without falling into broken.
Let me explain why I want to do this. In short: I'm pissed at my DM. He's essentially making me kill my good character in order to go over to evil. (We've got two parties, FYI.) I made the mistake of saying the phrase "Well, the only way I'll go evil is if I can retrain my guy as a Necromancer." DM says "OK. Well, retraining is too much of a hassle. Your guy's just going to die and you can make the new guy. G'bye."
So now, I need to make a character so utterly optimized...but in a subtle way. I don't want him to know right off the bat as he sees the sheet that it's broken.

A few preliminary things:
-All 3.5 books are up for use (except the BoEF, because, well...there are just some Power Words that aren't decent)
-We're in a Sandstorm campaign
-EDIT: This is a Level 10 Character
-The stat numbers are as follows (I'll leave it to you'se guys to assign them to their respective stats): 15, 14, 15, 14, 18, 14
-I assume TTS is a given for feats.

Now, before you go "ZOMG TH1Z BELAWNGS 1N TEH CHARBUILD THREADLOL!" I want this to be more than just the building of the guy. I need to know how to play a Dread Necro, and I need random tips about things to do.

Go forth and post.

Adumbration
2008-07-27, 12:54 PM
What level are we talking about?

Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 01:07 PM
>_< Wow. That'd be a Natural 4 on my Craft: Post check. We're Level 10.

Doresain
2008-07-27, 01:21 PM
instead of going dread necro, just go wizard necro...then as soon as you can turn into a tainted scholar and take up the necropolitan template...you now have a character with nigh infinite spells and save DCs

Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 01:26 PM
instead of going dread necro, just go wizard necro...then as soon as you can turn into a tainted scholar and take up the necropolitan template...you now have a character with nigh infinite spells and save DCs

Unfortunately, I think I'm stuck with this class. Like, I suggested going Sorc Necro, and the DM says "Yeah...how bout you just go Dread Necro?"

TempusCCK
2008-07-27, 01:31 PM
Eh, any game where the DM isn't letting you pick your own class is a game that not worth playing.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 01:34 PM
Well, to be honest, I kinda suggested it (even by accident), and he said he was going to NPC one for the bad guys anyway (since they're understaffed), and he figures it'd be easier if I just play it instead. Which I agree with, to be honest.

EDIT: Although, I could argue that I want to play a Yak-Folk...

Doresain
2008-07-27, 01:37 PM
well if youre stuck with dread necro, pick up corpsecrafter and destruction retribution and animate nothing but cats...use them a mobile grenades

you could still pick up tainted scholar, but i wont be as effective because you dont have the versatility of the wizard...that and i would suggest picking up tainted scholar after you get the charisma bump to undead controlling

and ditch tomb-tainted soul for necropolitan template...id rather have all the benefits of undeath rather than just one...and since youre starting level 10, it shouldnt interfere with your xp

Maerok
2008-07-27, 01:38 PM
See if he'll accept Divine Metamagic.

As far as I can see, there isn't any obviously ZOMG broken thing about the DN. Hmm.

Charnel touch like a madman and you've practically got fast healing 1d8+CL/4.

Right now I am a level 6 DN in one campaign (Tiamat just freaking appeared in the sky) and I feel bad about how my Summon Undead creatures (owlbear skeletons!!! :p) are doing a lot of damage against the enemies since I can drop them adjacent to the guy and they can make full attacks. Deadly Chill and Explosive Retribution are also nice...

I'm sure you can cheese the undead somehow; always have a full posse. Deadwalker's Ring + Corpsecrafting + Undead Mastery = +6 hp/HD which is like having Con 22. Rebuke and command any special undead you can. Use Undead Lieutenant for more and more ghoulies.

Animate important NPCs.

---

Dread Necros are like Necro Sorcs, but more sexy. :smallbiggrin: Whether or not you spring for Lichloved...

Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 01:42 PM
and ditch tomb-tainted soul for necropolitan template...id rather have all the benefits of undeath rather than just one...and since youre starting level 10, it shouldnt interfere with your xp

Where is this necropolitan template, exactly? I've been looking, but I can't seem to find it.

Vortling
2008-07-27, 01:47 PM
Libris Mortis. Book of the Undead. It costs you a level but you get most of the benefits and drawbacks of being undead.

Maerok
2008-07-27, 01:47 PM
Libris Mortis. It's got a weird sort of LA +1, you lose a level and 3000 gp, but you can cath-up again (like a built in buy-off).

And get Spellstitched (it's in CArc, and a MM I can't remember). Then get your familiar spellstitched after you give it the LM Spellstitched Familiar feat. Then cast Vile Death on it.

What familiar are you going with anyway?

Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 02:23 PM
Libris Mortis. It's got a weird sort of LA +1, you lose a level and 3000 gp, but you can cath-up again (like a built in buy-off).

And get Spellstitched (it's in CArc, and a MM I can't remember). Then get your familiar spellstitched after you give it the LM Spellstitched Familiar feat. Then cast Vile Death on it.

What familiar are you going with anyway?

You know, that's a very good question. I was debating on even taking one in the first place. I like the variant in Dungeonscape that lets you lose your familiar, but you get to deflect spells.

On the other hand, I DO like evil familiars. I just have no clue what any of them grants me. I should have more ranks in Search, to be honest, as well as Craft: Internet Post.

And as a Dread Necro, you become a Lich at 20 anyway. Why be undead before that? At 10th level DN, I've already got 25% fortification.

Maerok
2008-07-27, 02:27 PM
You'd have to be True Rezzed before level 20 if you go Necropolitan, unless the transformation just works like that. Could go Dragonborn and argue for Dracolich. :smallbiggrin:

Necropolitan just seems to save a lot of hassle. No wasting a feat on TTS.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-27, 02:34 PM
While I don't think they actually qualify for DMM, They do qualify for the Devotion feats from Complete Champion. Since your rebuke undead will eventually begin to lose its punch, you could pick up death devotion and deal negative levels with melee hits. DD is in character for a dread necro but some of the other feats might go a long way to filling in some of the deficiencies of having a limited spell list. Animal devotion comes to mind. with one feat, you have access to boosted strength, speed, the ability to fly and a poisonous bite attack. If you start to rely on devotions heavily, invest in extra turning, but otherwise you should have at least 2-3 uses from your feat and that 3+cha mod rebuke attempts.

You can play it off RP-wise rather easily. say that your DN originally hailed from some distant plains tribe or another and that the powers were gifted to you during a rather excruciating rite of passage. maybe you were later expelled from your tribe for dabbling in forbidden magic. not that the spirits seemed to care...

as others have said, Necropolitan is good for preserving your caster level,gaining the benefits of undeath, and should be a feasable solution by 10th level.

I also second Corpsecrafting and destruction retribution. kamikaze zombies are fun. you could go for deadly chill for added fun, but there might be other feats you want instead.

There's no real doubt that the 18 should go into charisma since DNs are pretty much a 1 stat character. since the rest are so close together, it really doesn't matter where you want to stick them. just remember to drop your lowest in con if you're going necropolitan.

A DN that I've had a lot of fun playing, while not terribly optimal, chose the guisarme as his martial weapon proficiency and then took combat expertise, improved trip and combat reflexes. keeps a handful of bodyguards with him, trips an enemy and then has his brute squad pummel them while they're on the ground. It also helps that my DM used the loosest possible interpretation of the sickening grasp reserve feat, but I digress.

A tip: making an undead assistant for each of your party members goes a long way for party unity and as insurance in case one of them betrays you.

Maerok
2008-07-27, 02:39 PM
Charisma works out SO well for Dread Necromancers.

Bluff
Disguise
Turning uses
Turning checks
Spell level
Spell DC
Undead Mastery
SLAs
Class abilities

AmberVael
2008-07-27, 02:40 PM
They qualify for Divine Metamagic, mabriss. A Dread Necromancer gains the ability to Rebuke undead, which is the only prerequisite you need for Divine Metamagic (that or the ability to Turn undead, obviously).

Maerok
2008-07-27, 02:41 PM
DMM was errataed, I thought. But by original RAW...

arguskos
2008-07-27, 02:43 PM
I played a Dread Necro once that acquired a Shield Guardian, and had it carry him around while he summoned undead and the like. I pretty much was the general of death's army in that campaign.

As for what feats to take... lessee:

-The entire Corpsecrafter tree from Libris Mortis is worth it.

-The entire Tomb-Tainted Soul tree is pretty decent.

-Fell Drain/Fell Animate is worth a look.

-Necromantic Presence/Necromantic Might are both really pretty good.

Also, I suggest playing a human, so you can access more good undead feats.

Best of Luck! Great class to pick too. :smallbiggrin:

-argus

AmberVael
2008-07-27, 02:50 PM
Oh, well yeah, by the errata you do have to have the metamagic feat you want it to work with, but that doesn't prevent a dread necro from getting it.

Maerok
2008-07-27, 03:02 PM
I thought that it said it could only be used with divine spells.

arguskos
2008-07-27, 03:05 PM
It doesn't actually specify that DMM can be used with divine spells only, at least not in Complete Divine. However, I'm pretty sure under Rules As Intended, it's meant to be divine casters only, which Dread Necro clearly isn't. Most DM's will probably shoot this one down, though, OP, if you can get away with giving your Dread Necro DMM (Fell Animate) or something, that'd be most excellent I bet.

-argus

AmberVael
2008-07-27, 03:10 PM
Ah wait, it does specify that it has to be divine spells in the errata. My bad, I'd been looking for prerequisite changes, not that.
Of course, that's errata. I know a lot of DMs who don't look around in the errata. >.>

Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 03:14 PM
I don't suppose the 1 Level Commoner dip to pick up the Chicken Infested Flaw would behoove me much, would it?

EDIT:
Ah wait, it does specify that it has to be divine spells in the errata. My bad, I'd been looking for prerequisite changes, not that.
Of course, that's errata. I know a lot of DMs who don't look around in the errata. >.>

I know mine doesn't. <_<

mabriss lethe
2008-07-27, 03:16 PM
I was pretty sure that DNs lost out on DMM, (I remember looking it up sometime in the past)... but I don't have C.Divine and I was having a heck of a time getting any online resources to load. Glad someone else got it sorted out.

As for going chicken infested...it works better with a warlock, since they don't need material components to animate the dead. if you do it with other spellcasters, it can be somewhat time consuming to keep pulling chickens out of your spell component pouch instead of those tasty bits of onyx you need.

Maerok
2008-07-27, 03:27 PM
Please elaborate. Chicken Infested? :smalleek:

AmberVael
2008-07-27, 03:30 PM
Please elaborate. Chicken Infested? :smalleek:

It is a Flaw that a commoner can take- every time they draw a weapon or retrieve an item there is a chance they draw out a chicken instead.


Chicken Infested
You've got Chickens
Effect: Whenever you draws a weapon or pull an item out of a container, you have a 50% chance of drawing a live chicken instead. No, we don't know where the chickens come from; its your character.

Maerok
2008-07-27, 03:31 PM
Is that from d20 Wiki?

AmberVael
2008-07-27, 03:32 PM
I... think it was from Dragon Magazine? I can't say for sure.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-27, 03:33 PM
Is that from d20 Wiki?

It was from an April Fool's edition of Dragon Magazine, as I recall.


And you know what's great about bad DMs? No material components.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-27, 03:34 PM
I think is was a dragon mag, but it was an "april fools" edition or something like that.

namo
2008-07-27, 09:43 PM
Fear effects can be nice. Fearsome armor (Drow of the Underdark) + the Imperious Command feat (ibid.), an optimized Intimidate check, the Never Outnumbered skill trick and you can reduce most enemies to wrecks curled-up on the ground.
Demoralize Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911167)

nobodylovesyou4
2008-07-27, 09:53 PM
does necropolitan have a cost, and any prereqs? now im intrigued...

Doresain
2008-07-28, 09:27 AM
it costs some gold, a level and then another 1000 xp...oh yeah, and you technically die too...

Chronicled
2008-07-28, 09:47 AM
Here's the Dread Necro Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515) from the WotC forums, which should help.

JeminiZero
2008-07-28, 09:58 AM
Please elaborate. Chicken Infested? :smalleek:

See this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84444) thread, post #19-23

Edit: On a side note, for a Sandstorm campaign, a limitless supply of chickens can help with food issues.

Person_Man
2008-07-28, 10:20 AM
Ug. As others have pointed out, the Dread Necro is pretty weak.

My suggestions:

Lord of the Uttercold (Comp Arcane) + Beckon the Frozen (Frostburn) + Arcane Thesis (PHBII) + Mass Frostburn spell (Frostburn) or any other Cold AoE spell. Summon undead horde. Heal horde while hurting enemies. Try and get your friends to take the Tomb Tainted Soul template, so that you don't have to worry about aiming.

Destruction Retribution (Libris Mortis) + undead bats (or any other really small low HD creatures). Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Have them attack. Then cast an AoO spell that kills all of them. They'll blow up, dealing 1d6 points of negative energy damage each in a 10 ft burst. At 10th level, you should be able to clear 136d6ish damage. Great way to kill a BBEG.

Something that doesn't deal negative energy or cold damage: This is important. If you use Lord of the Uttercold a lot (you should use it every combat) your DM is likely to throw stuff at you that's immune to Negative and cold damage. So be sure to buy a magic item or take a feat that expands your spell list in order to get something that deals Force damage or battlefield control.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 07:44 PM
Here's the Dread Necro Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515) from the WotC forums, which should help.

Chronicled, you always randomly have helpful links and information. Thanks.

The one problem I still have, though, is about the familiars. What bonuses do they give you, other than the feats already granted to you for having a familiar? I mean, like how the hedgehog gives you +X Nat armor, or the Toad gives you +Y HP, what do the quasit and the imp and the ghost visage give?

As to the rest of the build, I think I'm going to go with the "I like book-keeping" method and take some corpsecrafter feats. Most notably being the ones that make the undead go boom, and do +d6 Cold damage.

And I'm sorry, I've managed to lose it again. Where exactly is Tomb Tainted Soul? And by the way, I've definately got to go that route, because if I go Necropolitan, my DM is going to make me play the level lower than everyone, as well as the fact that I KNOW he's not going to let me find someone to Res me at Level 19 before I become a Lich.

arguskos
2008-07-28, 07:52 PM
Tomb-Tainted Soul and Necropolitan are both in Libris Mortis, as is the Corpsecrafter feat tree (that includes the cold damage and the exploding undead feats).

As for Improved Familiars, they don't grant you benefits. Them being actually decent on their own is enough benefit in theory.

-argus

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-28, 08:04 PM
For instance, the Quasit has poison, and has commune 1/week as a spell-like ability. Plus, it can become invisible at will.

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-28, 08:08 PM
Gotta throw in a suggestion for Undead Leadership (also from Libris Mortis I think) to get a whole army of undead minions. :smallbiggrin:

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 08:08 PM
Oh, well that's nifty. I mean, I like stat/save bonuses, but imps and quasits are pretty delicious. I especially love the idea in th DNM that you use a hat of disguise to look like a druid and have your quasit in wolf form all the time.

Quick question, though. With these familiars being smarter, should I be angry at my DM if he tries to play them? As in, he does the personality and such.

arguskos
2008-07-28, 08:13 PM
Uh... that really depends. Normally, familiars are under the player's control, but with smarter ones, it's a toss-up. I'd work with him to define the critters personality, and then let you play it.

Also, I vote you get an Imp. That way, you can help it advance up the infernal ranks, and maybe get to keep it when it turns into something else (I've been reading WAY too much Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells). If you're lucky, you can get it all the way up to Harvester Devil, and then go around and offer Faustian Pacts* to mortals! Fun for the whole family!

-argus

*Offer only valid on certain Material worlds. Consult your cleric before signing away your soul. People who are pregnant, or may become pregnant, may sign away their unborn child's soul at 25% market value. Faustian Pacts are not for everyone, and may have unforeseen consequences.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 08:19 PM
Uh... that really depends. Normally, familiars are under the player's control, but with smarter ones, it's a toss-up. I'd work with him to define the critters personality, and then let you play it.

Also, I vote you get an Imp. That way, you can help it advance up the infernal ranks, and maybe get to keep it when it turns into something else (I've been reading WAY too much Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells). If you're lucky, you can get it all the way up to Harvester Devil, and then go around and offer Faustian Pacts* to mortals! Fun for the whole family!

-argus

*Offer only valid on certain Material worlds. Consult your cleric before signing away your soul. People who are pregnant, or may become pregnant, may sign away their unborn child's soul at 25% market value. Faustian Pacts are not for everyone, and may have unforeseen consequences.

WHOA. Imps change? Into things other than Imps? I had no clue! I've gotta
go read that book now.

EDIT: Wait, where's all that nonsense about Infernal Ranks? I keep rolling 1s on my Search checks.

arguskos
2008-07-28, 08:24 PM
Well, here's the short version: devils advance along a hierarchy (as befits LE creatures). By corrupting mortal souls, devils gain prestige, and eventually can change form into a higher devilish form. I think Imps are at level 5 or so on the tree (just above Bearded Devils, and below Legion Devils I think). At around level 8, so a few steps up, devils transform into Harvester Devils, which are tasked with the whole-sale corruption of mortals. Of course, you can't skip a level, so your Imp would have to corrupt lots of people, then turn into a Legion Devil, somehow get back to you, somehow corrupt tons of stuff and kill lots of good people, advance again, get back from the Hells to you (again), do the process over, but even MORE, and then finally turn into a Harvester Devil.

Of course, at this point, it's pretty awesome, and it's a fun devil-themed campaign (which I love dearly). However, you need lots of DM assistance to make this work.

-argus

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 08:47 PM
Now, here's an interesting question.

When it says imp, does it have to be a standard imp, or can it be a variant?

arguskos
2008-07-28, 09:16 PM
Two things:

1). I believe it means standard imp.

2). The Infernal Hierarchy is outlined on page 10 of FC2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Note that it does not detail the amount of souls, money, or slaughtered soldiers of good any devil of any rank needs to advance. That should be worked out by or with your DM.

3). It's an awesome book. Totally worth reading cover to cover more than once (I've read it three times).

-argus

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 11:01 PM
Two things:

1). I believe it means standard imp.

2). The Infernal Hierarchy is outlined on page 10 of FC2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Note that it does not detail the amount of souls, money, or slaughtered soldiers of good any devil of any rank needs to advance. That should be worked out by or with your DM.

3). It's an awesome book. Totally worth reading cover to cover more than once (I've read it three times).

-argus

Well, I certainly hope my DM will let me advance my Imp. But wait, does it gain extra power and such as it advances?

arguskos
2008-07-28, 11:21 PM
I haven't made it clear enough I think: as the Imp corrupts souls, it can BECOME A DIFFERENT DEVIL.

It stops being an Imp, and becomes a Steel Devil (in that book). Later, once the Steel Devil has accrued enough clout with his masters, he can become a Chain Devil, and then finally, he becomes a Harvester Devil as the next step up from the Chain Devil.

How exactly this process is done, isn't really that clear. It says that to "qualify for advancement, a devil must win the approval of it's direct superior." That's it. This is a fluff thing, not a rules thing, so it's up to your DM as to how it is done.

However, the idea that by helping your Imp corrupt souls, and then kill them off (conveniently creating corpses for you to raise :smallwink:) so the Imp wins over his superiors, and is turned into a greater form of devil is really damned awesome in my eyes.

Really though, this is the point where you need a copy of the book in question, and your DM, and figure out if he'd let it work (since you'll need lots of help from the DM with this idea).

-argus

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 11:26 PM
I haven't made it clear enough I think: as the Imp corrupts souls, it can BECOME A DIFFERENT DEVIL.

It stops being an Imp, and becomes a Steel Devil (in that book). Later, once the Steel Devil has accrued enough clout with his masters, he can become a Chain Devil, and then finally, he becomes a Harvester Devil as the next step up from the Chain Devil.

How exactly this process is done, isn't really that clear. It says that to "qualify for advancement, a devil must win the approval of it's direct superior." That's it. This is a fluff thing, not a rules thing, so it's up to your DM as to how it is done.

However, the idea that by helping your Imp corrupt souls, and then kill them off (conveniently creating corpses for you to raise :smallwink:) so the Imp wins over his superiors, and is turned into a greater form of devil is really damned awesome in my eyes.

Really though, this is the point where you need a copy of the book in question, and your DM, and figure out if he'd let it work (since you'll need lots of help from the DM with this idea).

-argus

And suddenly it clicks. Thats...EXCESSIVELY COOL! I could probbably even try to work it with my DM so it actually WORKS and such. Like, having the Imp kill lots of people which I subsequently raise. Have him called off to the 9 Hells occasionally for a little while whilst he levels up.

Actually...>_< I almost said "evolves." Which would make this Pokemon now.

expirement10K14
2008-07-28, 11:27 PM
Okay, maybe the title is misleading. I don't really want to BREAK the Dread Necro, but I need to optimize it as heavily as possible without falling into broken.
Let me explain why I want to do this. In short: I'm pissed at my DM. He's essentially making me kill my good character in order to go over to evil. (We've got two parties, FYI.) I made the mistake of saying the phrase "Well, the only way I'll go evil is if I can retrain my guy as a Necromancer." DM says "OK. Well, retraining is too much of a hassle. Your guy's just going to die and you can make the new guy. G'bye."
So now, I need to make a character so utterly optimized...but in a subtle way. I don't want him to know right off the bat as he sees the sheet that it's broken.

A few preliminary things:
-All 3.5 books are up for use (except the BoEF, because, well...there are just some Power Words that aren't decent)
-We're in a Sandstorm campaign
-EDIT: This is a Level 10 Character
-The stat numbers are as follows (I'll leave it to you'se guys to assign them to their respective stats): 15, 14, 15, 14, 18, 14
-I assume TTS is a given for feats.

Now, before you go "ZOMG TH1Z BELAWNGS 1N TEH CHARBUILD THREADLOL!" I want this to be more than just the building of the guy. I need to know how to play a Dread Necro, and I need random tips about things to do.

Go forth and post.

Take Necropiliton (sp?) template from Libris Morits at level 3, making you lose 3,000xp (no nearly as much as taking it now) and then take just two feats.
Leadership and Undead leadership.

Make your undead companion a vampire or wight, and your regular cohort a meatshield. If your allowed followers get hordes of low-level fighters and zombies and send them forth.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-28, 11:37 PM
If your allowed followers get hordes of low-level fighters and zombies and send them forth.

Muahahaha! It's a tad funny, actually. The evil party to which I'll be joining already has a bunch of minions. I think I'll slay them all and Animate them.

To quote Xykon, "Is there any problem killing minions can't solve?"

arguskos
2008-07-28, 11:42 PM
Screw the effort. Just take Undead Leadership. It's a feat somewhere (I forget where), but it exists. My DN had it actually.

Also, yeah, the Devil Advancement Track is freaking WIN. I love it.

Lastly, I do suggest you find a way to acquire a Shield Guardian. That way, it can carry you around the field of battle as you animate stuff, kill stuff, and just generally have a damn good time.

-argus

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-28, 11:59 PM
Use your Undead Leadership to acquire a Death Knight (MMII) cohort. It attracts undead to itself. You don't even need to animate them.

Also, on the whole imp progression thing, I doubt that was intended by those who made the imp a choice as a familiar (imagining having a pit fiend as a familiar!), but if you can get away with it, power to you.

FC1 also has a sort of "progression" for demons, but it's even more vague. Supposedly the chaotic whims of the Abyss itself brings about the "promotion" of demons.

arguskos
2008-07-29, 12:08 AM
Dude, when your devil becomes a greater devil, I'm fairly certain it stops being a familiar/cohort and becomes an NPC ally. Which is still AWESOME.

Also, FC1 has a demonic progression? Where?

-argus

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-29, 12:26 AM
It's been a month since I read it, but it's near the beginning. It's very vague, and they make a point in saying how random and unpredictable it is. One mane might become a dretch, while another becomes a rutterkin, while a third remains a mane for a century. There's no rhyme or reason; it's the will of the plane.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-29, 12:45 AM
If I could actually pick up a shield guardian with WBL 10, I would. As it stands though, that probbably won'r happen. Instead, I've gotta pick up random stuff like the Corpsecrafter Ring and Cloak of Cha and all sorts of other niftiness. Like the Twilight Mithral Chain-blahblahblah.

tyckspoon
2008-07-29, 12:55 AM
Like the Twilight Mithral Chain-blahblahblah.

Dread Necros can cast normally in light armor. Just get a normal chain shirt. Or a mithral breastplate if you want the absolute best you can wear, but the difference is only 2 points of AC (1 armor, 1 increased Dex bonus) improvement on the breastplate and the chain shirt costs 4,100 gp less. By level 10 you shouldn't be getting yourself into melee much any more anyway.. that's what your minions are for.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-29, 01:05 AM
Dread Necros can cast normally in light armor. Just get a normal chain shirt. Or a mithral breastplate if you want the absolute best you can wear, but the difference is only 2 points of AC (1 armor, 1 increased Dex bonus) improvement on the breastplate and the chain shirt costs 4,100 gp less. By level 10 you shouldn't be getting yourself into melee much any more anyway.. that's what your minions are for.

Although true, I'm worried about fighting other casters, what with their Ranged Touch Attacks and such. As well as diseases, actually. Is there a ring of disease immunity? I'll need that if A) I'm dealing with undead that confer disease and B) We spring traps that shoot out diseases.

And as to not getting into melee, you're absolutely right. I shouldn't be. But that doesn't mean I won't, unfortunately. There's certain times I just won't have my horde with me. Unless they all fit in a Bag of Holding...

CthulhuM
2008-07-29, 01:39 AM
As cool as having your imp advance would be, I don't think it would stay your familiar if it did. Obviously, it's up to your DM, but wouldn't allow it in one of my campaigns - if you were allowed to bind higher-level devils as improved familiars, they would be listed as options.

I'd recommend going with a ghostly visage, particularly if you go with tomb-tainted soul (since it will gain the full effect of any "healing" spells cast on you that way). Not only is the visage much harder to kill than most improved familiars thanks to its being incorporeal, but, also unlike the rest of them, it actually has an useful and powerful ability - it basically gives you a 30 foot paralyzing gaze you can turn on and off at will, with a DC of 13+half your dread necromancer level. The only downside is that your allies can be affected by it too (though not you or your undead), but the ability to hit everything within 30 feet of you with a save or die as a free action every round still makes any other familiar look pretty pathetic in comparison.

Oh, and I just reread the entry, and apparently it also gives you immunity to mind-affecting, constantly, for free. So, you know, that's nice. Honestly, I'd say the ghostly visage is just about the definition of the sort of "subtly-broken" thing you were looking for, with about a page's worth of powers and stats covered by just two little words on your charsheet.

EDIT: Oh, and look up Ghoul Glyph in the SpC when you're choosing your expanded knowledge spells. It's kinda situational, since it's only useful if you can set up the battleground beforehand, but if you do manage to pull that off, it's no-save paralysis to the first enemy foolish enough to get near you.

Hunter Noventa
2008-07-29, 01:58 AM
A friend of mine with a DN took a Ghostly Visage as his familiar. On the basic level, it's a ghost that can join with you and give you several undead qualities, like immunity to diesase and mind affecitng affects and the like. So you can skip becoming a necropolitan, take that til you turn into a lich, and then get something better.

I think the Ghostly Visage is in Libris Mortis.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-29, 08:05 PM
A friend of mine with a DN took a Ghostly Visage as his familiar. On the basic level, it's a ghost that can join with you and give you several undead qualities, like immunity to diesase and mind affecitng affects and the like. So you can skip becoming a necropolitan, take that til you turn into a lich, and then get something better.

I think the Ghostly Visage is in Libris Mortis.

It's actually in Fiend Folio, but thank you for reminding me about it. And I don't think it gives disease immunity, just mind-shielding.

So basically, there's all sorts of arguments for all the familiars - except the vargouille (sp?). Why's that? Is it not good?

And I'm thinking that I'm going to look at the Ghostly Visage, if only for the fact that not only does it give me ANOTHER fear attack, but it can stay inside of me so as not to be squished. Add in a hat of Disguise, and people won't know what the heck I am. Y'know, just so long as I'm not spouting undead everywhere.

Which leads me to another question: The Undead Minions + Bag of Holding (or portable hole). With the BoH, could I concievably just squish a bunc of them in there, then turn it inside out when I need them all and have them come tumbling out?

And we come back to Feats. I know I have to take TTS and Corpsecrafter. That's two. Which should leave me two more, right? Now, I like my undead doing extra damage, so I'm thinking the feats that make them explode and the one that makes them do an extra d6 Cold damage. So that should be all my feats, right? Or am I missing one? It's been so long since I've actually made a character I've forgotten.

If I am out of feats, I need some inventive ideas for Flaws so I can take Leadership/Undead Leadership, or both.

Also, when I get more feats later, should I invest in feats that give me extra spells? Like the Infernal Sorceror bloodline tree?

Oh, and one last thing: Equipment. I've got WBL 10, and I need to know some good jank to take.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-29, 09:04 PM
And I'm thinking that I'm going to look at the Ghostly Visage, if only for the fact that not only does it give me ANOTHER fear attack, but it can stay inside of me so as not to be squished. Add in a hat of Disguise, and people won't know what the heck I am. Y'know, just so long as I'm not spouting undead everywhere.

You really don't need a hat of disguise, just don't dress like a member of the "black leather and skulls" set in the first place and don't unload the undead unless you're in trouble. be adventurous, dress flamboyantly in eye searing colors, gaudy jewelry and clashing patterns. Quasits or imps both go a long way toward the same goal since both are able to assume alternate forms. Admittedly the GV is a pretty cool familiar, but you're already packing more fear than the Lord Almighty. Other familiars might have other capabilities that will make you more versitile.


Which leads me to another question: The Undead Minions + Bag of Holding (or portable hole). With the BoH, could I concievably just squish a bunc of them in there, then turn it inside out when I need them all and have them come tumbling out?

I know the WotC article about them mentioned that you could use a bag of holding to keep a ready supply of unanimated corpses for quick retrieval and zombification. as for the rest, you might want to check with your DM first.

Fiendish or Fey heritage/ legacy feats can open up your abitities pretty well. sure they're 1/day SLAs, but that can save your butt in a pinch.

10th level human DN should have 5 bonus feats, 4 derived from character level and 1 from race. my advice would be to take TTS, Corpsecrafter, and destruction retribution, but not deadly chill. It's good, but you might find there are other feats you want to take. Undead Leadership comes to mind, or regular leadership, but probably not both at this point in time. One of the biggest flaws in playing a DN is that if your brute squad gets too big, your turn will take longer than the rest of combat. Keep your brute squad relatively small, just big enough to do the job. More than 4 or 5 just gets rediculous.

if you're playing a human, you have an extra feat to blow, You could take a domain feat to give yourself something extra to do with your rebuke undead attempts. You could pick up a metamagic or item creation feat. you might want to look at fell animate. Another option that would also be a good way to use some extra turn attempts would be profane lifeleech or profane vigor. Necromantic presence/might are also good feats to pick up.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-29, 10:04 PM
Oh, hey, another minor item question: Does armor fortification stack with my own? Like, could I have my own light fortification stack with armor of light fortification, thus giving me moderate fortification?

mabriss lethe
2008-07-29, 11:00 PM
Oh, hey, another minor item question: Does armor fortification stack with my own? Like, could I have my own light fortification stack with armor of light fortification, thus giving me moderate fortification?

hmm. never thought of that, but I'm pretty sure they don't stack. besides, every quality you have from another source frees up space for different types of enhancements. It'll give you a wider array of defenses that way

Deth Muncher
2008-07-29, 11:07 PM
hmm. never thought of that, but I'm pretty sure they don't stack. besides, every quality you have from another source frees up space for different types of enhancements. It'll give you a wider array of defenses that way

Very true.


Speaking of, what kind of defensiveness should I have up, exactly? I don't really have access to any that I can cast, per se, although I could probbably buy some wands.

EDIT: More stuff to think about! I want to take Undead Leadership to get myself a Mummy Sorceror. I heard tell that there was a mummy-template somewhere, but as I've said before, my search-fu is absolutely crummy. Could someone point me to/explain to me how to be doings that?

JBento
2008-07-30, 05:47 AM
Mummified creature is in, surprise, surprise, Libris Mortis: the Book of Latin so Bad it's Dead. It's THE book for the budding (or withering) necromancer. Really, all the cool necros are using it.

You want subtly broken? You have access to Create Greater Undead, that's as broken as it gets. Create a Shadow. Kill whatever (really, about 90% of the monsters out there can't do SQUAT against incorporeal). Get more shadows. Kill more stuff. Slaughter villages for even more shadows. Slay the world.

Spawn spawning. Breaking the game since it showed up in the hadns of PCs.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-30, 07:21 AM
Mummified creature is in, surprise, surprise, Libris Mortis: the Book of Latin so Bad it's Dead. It's THE book for the budding (or withering) necromancer. Really, all the cool necros are using it.

You want subtly broken? You have access to Create Greater Undead, that's as broken as it gets. Create a Shadow. Kill whatever (really, about 90% of the monsters out there can't do SQUAT against incorporeal). Get more shadows. Kill more stuff. Slaughter villages for even more shadows. Slay the world.

Spawn spawning. Breaking the game since it showed up in the hadns of PCs.


Wow, I should really just read that freaking book instead of asking you people these things, shouldn't I? :smalltongue:

And on the subject of slaughter, I felt this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g) was appropriate.

arguskos
2008-07-30, 09:23 AM
Dude, Shadow chains are SO last year. Do something like this:

Step 1. Become a vampire.
Step 2. Make more vampires.
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Profit.

Also, go read Libris Mortis some more. Awesome book is AWESOME.

-argus

Burley
2008-07-30, 10:47 AM
How exactly this process is done, isn't really that clear. It says that to "qualify for advancement, a devil must win the approval of it's direct superior." That's it. This is a fluff thing, not a rules thing, so it's up to your DM as to how it is done.


Wait wait wait... Wouldn't the person who summoned the familiar be it's "direct superior?"
So, if the Dreadhead was to say, "Alright, we beat those troublesome paladins. Great job out there, Team Ghoulie. Especially you, Daehttub. You did great and I approve of your actions," would he shriek with glee as he digivolved into a better devilmon?

JBento
2008-07-30, 11:12 AM
Dude, Shadow chains are SO last year. Do something like this:

Step 1. Become a vampire.
Step 2. Make more vampires.
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Profit.

Also, go read Libris Mortis some more. Awesome book is AWESOME.

-argus

Sure... if you want to limit your army usefulness to half the time. Shadows have NO problems working on daylight. Plus, shadows are STILL better. A dragon with death ward owns quite abit of vamps. Shadows? Not so much. Why? See incorporeality. Then see the dragons' near total inability to bypass it.

arguskos
2008-07-30, 11:21 AM
Wait wait wait... Wouldn't the person who summoned the familiar be it's "direct superior?"
So, if the Dreadhead was to say, "Alright, we beat those troublesome paladins. Great job out there, Team Ghoulie. Especially you, Daehttub. You did great and I approve of your actions," would he shriek with glee as he digivolved into a better devilmon?
Nah, in the devilish hierarchy, each devil has a superior devil that it reports to. Mortals don't count in that hierarchy, so not really, no.

Though, if you can convince your DM otherwise.... hehehehe.

-argus

NINJAEDIT: Also, the Vampire thing works well, actually, since you and your minions can take the Daylight Adaptation feat, and make your army crazy-powerful.

JBento
2008-07-30, 11:29 AM
Technically, the DM chooses your spawns' feats, not you. Also, see "not incorporeal."

arguskos
2008-07-30, 11:53 AM
Gaseous Form much? Energy Drain? Domination? Seriously, vampires > shadows.

Look, here's a way to think about it: shadow chains lead DM's to say the following: "rocks fall, everyone dies (and yes, they are INCOPOREAL rocks, so your damn shadows die too)." I know this, because I've done it once. I took over the world, and was trying to conquer the rest of the star system (reasoning that my army can fly, and doesn't breath, and thus can fly through space), when my DM auto-killed me and my party members.

However, vampire chains are pretty tough to say "no, that doesn't work." Why? It's harder to do. It's hard enough in fact that if you can do it, most DM's let it fly.

It is a matter of taste. Personally, I find Shadow Chaining to be fairly cheesy, and too provoking of DM Auto-Death, where Vampire chaining, A) doesn't really chain, and B) is hard enough to pull off, that it's worth it when it works.

-argus

Deth Muncher
2008-07-30, 05:54 PM
To compromise, I think I'll be taking both. They both have their merits, and both do delicious things. Plus if the DM lets me let the Vamps keep their class levels. Or somesuch.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-30, 06:55 PM
wights make for decent mid level undead. not as potentially powerful as a vamp, less neat powers, but they're pretty tough, sneaky lil gits, and can spawn an enslaved horde in no time flat. They can operate during the day, and could even potentially pass for normal if carefully disguised.

I also let it be known that wights, due to a little oversight, are potentially very broken. using the Libris Mortis monster class, a few feats, and some specific weapon qualities, you can drop a level 20 character in one to two rounds just on negative levels alone...as a monk. Since they weren't originally developed for PC use, unlike the vampire, wights don't have a cap on controlled spawn and they don't have an expressed limit on how many negative levels/round they can deal.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-30, 06:58 PM
wights make for decent mid level undead. not as potentially powerful as a vamp, less neat powers, but they're pretty tough, sneaky lil gits, and can spawn an enslaved horde in no time flat. They can operate during the, and could even potentially pass for normal if carefully disguised.

I also let it be known that wights, due to a little oversight, are potentially very broken. using the Libris Mortis monster class, a few feats, and some specific weapon qualities, you can drop a level 20 character in one to two rounds just on negative levels alone. Since they weren't originally developed for PC use, unlike the vampire, wights don't have a cap on controlled spawn and they don't have an expressed limit on how many negative levels/round they can deal.

Incidentally, this arises a few questions in my mind. These Monster-Spawning Monsters, like Wights, Vampires, Shadows...hell, even Vargouilles...what happens with the Spawn? Do they count towards my Max HD Controlled? Do I even technically control them? Or do I control them through their creator, thus causeing them to exist outside of the Max HD, but still under my control?

mabriss lethe
2008-07-30, 07:04 PM
Only the "patient zero" needs to be under your direct control. You can relay orders to the rest of them through their master. Remember that vampires can only enslave a limited number of spawn. any others created are free willed, though they can be controlled by other means. Wights and other types of spawning undead aren't limited in that fashion.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-30, 07:11 PM
Only the "patient zero" needs to be under your direct control. You can relay orders to the rest of them through their master. Remember that vampires can only enslave a limited number of spawn. any others created are free willed, though they can be controlled by other means. Wights and other types of spawning undead aren't limited in that fashion.

So in the Shadow Chain idea mentioned earlier, only the Daddy Shadow needs to be created/controlled by me, and then everything it makes is "technically" under my control via controlling the Daddy Shaddow, but doesn't count towards my Max HD controlled? At all? How is that _ing legal? It's like they're saying "Oh, okay, you've almost gotten to your maximum HD controlled? Go make a Shadow. Ok, you can't control any more HD of undead? Just get the Shadow to take care of it. Don't worry, we'll wait."

*Time elapses*

"Ok, so you've now managed to get 400 HD of Undead, mostly Shadows? Good job."

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-30, 11:57 PM
Once again, yes, that rule is disastrously broken, because nobody thought, "Hey, what if the PCs do this?"

There are a lot of things like that. Candles of Invocation and Efreeti, Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell on Divine Power and Righteous Might, whisper gnomes with + 20 to Hide at first level, the list goes on.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-31, 12:41 AM
Once again, yes, that rule is disastrously broken, because nobody thought, "Hey, what if the PCs do this?"



Oh, I am SO exploiting that. Not because I want to be munchkinny of whatnot, it's purely because it's THERE, and it's FUNNY. Seriously. How can people at R&D NOT think about that kind of stuff?

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for weapons to take? I mean, I shouldn't be in combat all that much, but still. I mean, I'd like to use the overused Grim Reaper guise and carry a Scythe around whilst slaying people, but if I do then I need to take Somatic Weaponry as my floating Feat (which I'm not even sure 2H weapons count for, actually).

arguskos
2008-07-31, 12:48 AM
Dude, just hold the Scythe in one hand, and cast with your other one. My DM's always let me get away with that one.

-argus

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-31, 01:36 AM
Also, does anyone have any suggestions for weapons to take? I mean, I shouldn't be in combat all that much, but still.
I always felt warhammers were pretty efficient. Plus, you can make it a disrupting weapon, in case your minions get out of hand.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-31, 01:54 AM
I think I'm going to take both of those, actually.

I've just gotta watch how much niftiness I put on them, because I've gotta buy the Rod of Undead Mastery, plus armor, plus some sort of Bag of Holding, plus Corpsecrafter Ring, PLUS wands of nifty spells I don't have...

TheCountAlucard
2008-07-31, 02:09 AM
Well, as a magic bludgeoning weapon, it'll overcome a lich's DR. If it's silver, it also beats a vampire's DR.

Also, always go with skeletons over zombies. Only being able to take single actions sucks.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-31, 02:15 AM
Well, as a magic bludgeoning weapon, it'll overcome a lich's DR. If it's silver, it also beats a vampire's DR.

Also, always go with skeletons over zombies. Only being able to take single actions sucks.

The only exception to the Skele/Vamp only thing is if we kill a Dragon of any kind. I like having a flying tank.:smallbiggrin:

Random other things:
Who knows a way (other than being a paladin) to be immune to disease at all times?

And for my feats, I think I'm going TTS, Corpsecrafter, Destructive Retribution, Undead Leadership, Quicken Turning.
(Why quicken turning? So I can animate something in combat, then instantly rebuke it so it can act under my orders.)

Also, what're some good scrolls to have around? I don't really need healing what with the Charnel Touch. And if I get my Mummy Sorceror cohort like I want, I'll have access to all sorts of spells.

Aquillion
2008-07-31, 05:44 AM
So in the Shadow Chain idea mentioned earlier, only the Daddy Shadow needs to be created/controlled by me, and then everything it makes is "technically" under my control via controlling the Daddy Shaddow, but doesn't count towards my Max HD controlled? At all? How is that _ing legal? It's like they're saying "Oh, okay, you've almost gotten to your maximum HD controlled? Go make a Shadow. Ok, you can't control any more HD of undead? Just get the Shadow to take care of it. Don't worry, we'll wait."

*Time elapses*

"Ok, so you've now managed to get 400 HD of Undead, mostly Shadows? Good job."Don't forget, it has a weakness: If the Daddy Shadow dies, you're screwed. Also, even if you think you'll keep the Daddy Shadow safe -- don't forget, that means other shadows will be getting followers. Even if Mid-Ranking Three-Star General shadow dies, you could have a huge chunk of your army go rogue all at once.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-31, 12:55 PM
Don't forget, it has a weakness: If the Daddy Shadow dies, you're screwed. Also, even if you think you'll keep the Daddy Shadow safe -- don't forget, that means other shadows will be getting followers. Even if Mid-Ranking Three-Star General shadow dies, you could have a huge chunk of your army go rogue all at once.

That...is a very good point, actually. A VERY good point. If a Daddy Shadow dies, what happens? Do all their spawned shadows just kinda poof? Or do they run wild, causing me to need to Rebuke them?

Lochar
2008-07-31, 01:07 PM
Run wild.

Which is the problem with the idea. Your DM will throw this wrench into your machine. And then your surrounded by a couple hundred shadows which you can't control.

Duke of URL
2008-07-31, 01:27 PM
Also, does anyone have any suggestions for weapons to take? I mean, I shouldn't be in combat all that much, but still. I mean, I'd like to use the overused Grim Reaper guise and carry a Scythe around whilst slaying people, but if I do then I need to take Somatic Weaponry as my floating Feat (which I'm not even sure 2H weapons count for, actually).

I believe it's explicitly ruled that using a 2-handed weapon still lets you treat your off-hand as free when you aren't actually swinging the weapon.

Vexxation
2008-07-31, 02:44 PM
Run wild.

Which is the problem with the idea. Your DM will throw this wrench into your machine. And then your surrounded by a couple hundred shadows which you can't control.

The solution is to send the pawns in first. Have the lowest-ranking shadows rush in first while the higher-ups watch. If they all die, send in the wave containing rank 2, etcetera.

That way you never get any that break off because of masters dying; by the time the master reaches combat, all its underlings are croaked.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-31, 03:13 PM
As I mentioned earlier, the guisarme isn't a bad choice for a weapon since it has reach and you can trip with it. Your BAB isn't going to be all that great, so you'll have a lot easier time hitting with a melee touch attack than with a standard melee attack. If you don't want to blow a feat on combat reflexes, you can accomplish much the same thing by hitting a target with a trip and then letting your goon squad take pot shots at him while he's prone. Damage type won't matter too much at this point. If you really want to play this up you'll want Combat expertise and Improved Trip.

As for optimizing your control of spawning undead, I've found a few ways to help that along. One failsafe is to have multiple "lynchpin" undead that you control directly within the heirarchy. While they're still slaves to your primary undead, they and their spawn won't revolt if someone higer up on the chain bites the big one. Always have direct control of any undead you use as bodyguards.

Though I don't think it's on the DNs spell list, (AFB, so I'm not certain) using Advanced learining, you can learn Mark of Justice( I believe as a 4th level spell, since I'm pretty sure you can choose any necromancy spell that has multiple caster levels at the lowest level.) 4th or 5th, Either way, you can use the Mark as a second layer of control. Mark as many of your undead as time permits. Write out a rulebook that you issue to each of your marked undead. They must obey that code of conduct or the mark activates. One of those rules is to never harm you. another rule is to always obey you. Fill in the other rules as you see fit.

Sure, if they ever become free they can still rebel if they want to, but holding this other leash over them help ensure that either they'll still follow orders or that they'll be a heck of a lot easier to wipe out if they betray you.

Also, don't be a jerk to the intellegent ones. Treat them like valued NPC allies. try to inspire loyalty just as you would in any other army at your beck and call. Sure, they might still be cannon fodder, but you don't have to treat them like it.

Play it right and they'll follow you all the way back to the hell you dredged them up from sometimes without even having to order them to do so.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-31, 07:10 PM
Several things:

Duke of URL - Thanks! I'm always happy when people can provide exact rulings as opposed to the speculations that often float around the site.

Vexxation - Very good idea. It requires a little more book-keeping, but you know, that's what I signed on for.

Marbiss - Currently, I'm picking the scythe as opposed to the guisarme. Why? Well, it's thematic. Although as I look at the stats, are they not both exactly the same?

Oh, and currently my Items are as follows:

Bag of Holding II, Keen Wounding Scythe, Chain Shirt (SR 13), Rod of Undead Mastery, Hat of Disguise. (I've got 70 GP left.)

I'm pretty sure I need to pick up a Cloak of Charisma +2 or +4, the Deadwalker's Ring, and a Hand of the Mage.

Also, the rest of the party anf the DM keep pressing me to take a Vargouille as my Familiar. Why? Because the love the concept of a flying head that makes more of itself.

My argument is that Imps and Quasits can not only cast my spells as well, and GV Mind Blanks me.

And one last thing. Where can I find Quicken Turning? (So help me God if it's in The Book of Bad Latin.)
EDIT: Also, whilst I've been poking around the guide that Chronicled provided, I noticed that the saves for the familiar's Supernatural Abilities progresses at 10 + 1/2CL + Stat? Is that right? Does that mean that, say, the Fort save on a Vargouille's Kiss suddenly becomes 17 for me? (10 + 5 + 2[Con bonus])

tyckspoon
2008-07-31, 07:45 PM
The scythe has a higher crit modifier. The guisarme is a reach weapon. That's the difference.

Your gear is.. not very well picked, unfortunately. Remember you're primarily a caster and a commander of your undead minions. The scythe is neat, but unless you want to switch your focus to melee you're probably going to waste those enhancements most of the time. Keen+Wounding makes it a +4 equivalent weapon; not a smart investment, considering everything else you'll want for the character. I would drop Wounding- it's not really useful unless you can apply it lots of times, and you won't be doing that unless you're engaged in a melee that you would probably be better off running away from. That would leave you a +1 Keen Scythe- +2 equivalent, still a nice reaper-y weapon, and incidentally 24,000 gp cheaper. And yes, you absolutely do want a Cloak of Charisma. And a Cloak of Resistance, but you cant wear those both unless your DM is nice about letting you get re-slotted items or combined items.

The +4 cloak is the one you're reasonably 'expected' to have at this point; you can get the +6 if you're willing to step down to a plain +1 weapon and spend it all on the cloak instead. Don't do that; you want more items than just the cloak.

Your armor is overly expensive and unfortunately fairly useless as well. SR 13 may as well be nothing. Anything near your own caster level (major caster-type monsters, humanoid spellcasting enemies) can break it nearly without trying. If they happen to have Spell Penetration, the *can* break it without trying. Somebody else can probably suggest a more useful enhancement for it; in Core only, you'd be better off just taking more AC as a straight +3 armor. Personally I would probably drop it to +2 or even down to +1 and use the money on more caster-important things.. or just extra/bigger Bags of Holding. And a Heward's Handy Haversack for storing your normal adventuring crap while your Bags are stuffed with undead.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-31, 08:34 PM
The scythe has a higher crit modifier. The guisarme is a reach weapon. That's the difference.

Your gear is.. not very well picked, unfortunately. Remember you're primarily a caster and a commander of your undead minions. The scythe is neat, but unless you want to switch your focus to melee you're probably going to waste those enhancements most of the time. Keen+Wounding makes it a +4 equivalent weapon; not a smart investment, considering everything else you'll want for the character. I would drop Wounding- it's not really useful unless you can apply it lots of times, and you won't be doing that unless you're engaged in a melee that you would probably be better off running away from. That would leave you a +1 Keen Scythe- +2 equivalent, still a nice reaper-y weapon, and incidentally 24,000 gp cheaper. And yes, you absolutely do want a Cloak of Charisma. And a Cloak of Resistance, but you cant wear those both unless your DM is nice about letting you get re-slotted items or combined items.

The +4 cloak is the one you're reasonably 'expected' to have at this point; you can get the +6 if you're willing to step down to a plain +1 weapon and spend it all on the cloak instead. Don't do that; you want more items than just the cloak.

Your armor is overly expensive and unfortunately fairly useless as well. SR 13 may as well be nothing. Anything near your own caster level (major caster-type monsters, humanoid spellcasting enemies) can break it nearly without trying. If they happen to have Spell Penetration, the *can* break it without trying. Somebody else can probably suggest a more useful enhancement for it; in Core only, you'd be better off just taking more AC as a straight +3 armor. Personally I would probably drop it to +2 or even down to +1 and use the money on more caster-important things.. or just extra/bigger Bags of Holding. And a Heward's Handy Haversack for storing your normal adventuring crap while your Bags are stuffed with undead.

Okay. I decided to turn the Scythe back into a Keen Scythe, and the armor back into Masterwork Chain Shirt. That puts me at 28,050 gold. Actually, a Cloak of Cha +2 puts me to 24050. The Deadwalker Ring puts me down to 20050.

Edits as I buy things.
[EDIT]: Wait, multiple bags of holding? Handy haversack? I can't carry all of those at once. They're too heavy, and so far as I know, we can't shove Bags of Holding inside of Bags of Holding inside Handy Haversacks.
{EDIT}: Look at the DN spell list. Death Ward is on there twice, once as a
3rd level spell and once as a 4th. Why?

tyckspoon
2008-07-31, 10:20 PM
Oh. Are you trying to maintain a Light encumbrance? Might want to Mithral your armor, then- drop half its weight. Fairly cheap for a Light armor. And/or pick up a Strength bonus item.

If you're planning to store undead in your Bag of Holding, you'll still want some extra storage space. Especially if you plan to use the rapid-deployment plan of simply turning the bag inside out to dump out the contents; you don't want to have to collect everything else that was in there along with the undead every time. The Handy Haversack is good for all the miscellaneous crud you may also buy or collect during your adventures, like assorted alchemical items, wands, and scrolls. Also small loot pieces.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-31, 10:47 PM
Oh. Are you trying to maintain a Light encumbrance? Might want to Mithral your armor, then- drop half its weight. Fairly cheap for a Light armor. And/or pick up a Strength bonus item.

If you're planning to store undead in your Bag of Holding, you'll still want some extra storage space. Especially if you plan to use the rapid-deployment plan of simply turning the bag inside out to dump out the contents; you don't want to have to collect everything else that was in there along with the undead every time. The Handy Haversack is good for all the miscellaneous crud you may also buy or collect during your adventures, like assorted alchemical items, wands, and scrolls. Also small loot pieces.

Good point about both things. But I didn't think I could wear both the H^3 or the BoH at the same time.

And with the Mithril Shirt, I'm at 23,200.

[Edit]- With an H^3, I'm at 21,200.

Deth Muncher
2008-08-01, 01:40 AM
Hey. So I'm taking the one thing nobody voted for: The Vargouille! Why, you may ask?

Well, the DM wants me to take it so bad, he's throwing me a free permanent +1 to Cha, and is making it so that any vargouilles made from my familiar are instantly under it's control (once they come to be that is).