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View Full Version : Enchantments, Mind affecting spells, and Death



caith
2008-07-27, 06:57 PM
Question for the experts:

If I have an enchantment spell, specifically one such as hold person or hold monster(which is of type compulsion/mind-affecting), do these sorts of effects persist through death? So if I were held, then killed, then immediately and instantly brought back to life by whatever means, would I still be held when I returned?

Killersquid
2008-07-27, 07:05 PM
Not an expert, but once someone becomes a corpse, they are an object I think, so no spells that work on creatures will work on them (unless they have (object) in the description I think). Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Douglas
2008-07-27, 07:21 PM
From the FAQ:

If, while under the effect of a spell that depends on type
(such as hold person), my character is transformed into a
different creature type by polymorph, does the spell’s
effect remain?
Yes. A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target
when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via
the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.
The same logic applies to becoming an illegal target by dying and becoming an object. In many cases the spell's effect will be meaningless for a corpse, but it's still there and will become meaningful again when you return to life.

TheOOB
2008-07-27, 09:49 PM
Well, this brings up a simple question, if the target of a spell becomes illegal(such as a spell that targets a creature becoming an object), is the magic dispelled or suppressed?

I would tend to say the effect ends, but the best solution would be to contact customer support.

Douglas
2008-07-27, 10:45 PM
is the magic dispelled or suppressed?
Neither. As per the FAQ quote I gave, it remains fully in effect. Its effect may be rendered temporarily or permanently nonfunctional (objects can't have fast healing so Vigor wouldn't do anything, for example), but the spell is still there regardless. In the case of Shield of Faith, for example, objects do have AC so the corpse would benefit from the deflection bonus the spell grants.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-27, 11:50 PM
I would tend to say the effect ends, but the best solution would be to contact customer support.Bwa ha ha! Ha ha ha! Bwa ha ha...ha.

Ha ha ha!

Hee...hmph.HA HA HA!

Okay, I'm done. Good one.

Heh. "Ask customer support". Where do people get these ideas?

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-28, 12:04 AM
From the FAQ:

The same logic applies to becoming an illegal target by dying and becoming an object. In many cases the spell's effect will be meaningless for a corpse, but it's still there and will become meaningful again when you return to life.

This is terrible. This means I can cast "living creature" spells on something, kill it, then cast "object" spells on it and finally animate it and cast any "undead" spells I might happen to have... (iron bones comes to mind) and have it resurrected to maintain all those buffs. o.O

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-28, 12:06 AM
This is terrible. This means I can cast "living creature" spells on something, kill it, then cast "object" spells on it and finally animate it and cast any "undead" spells I might happen to have... (iron bones comes to mind) and have it resurrected to maintain all those buffs. o.O

Yes, if you can get all of that done before the buffs time limit runs out and without costing them a level.

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-28, 01:56 AM
Yes, if you can get all of that done before the buffs time limit runs out and without costing them a level.

Naturally the buff durations could be prohibative, but there are plenty of "permanent" spells or those that can be made permanent or researched to be made permanent. Just looking at the permanency list, enlarge person[i] could be used to make large undead, [i]invisibility normally can only be made permanent on objects but could be used while the subject is a corpse. Magic fang only works on a living creature... animate objects gives an object a slam attack... Reduce person and shrink item can both be made permanent. Would they stack?

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-28, 02:03 AM
Naturally the buff durations could be prohibative, but there are plenty of "permanent" spells or those that can be made permanent or researched to be made permanent. Just looking at the permanency list, enlarge person[i] could be used to make large undead, [i]invisibility normally can only be made permanent on objects but could be used while the subject is a corpse. Magic fang only works on a living creature... animate objects gives an object a slam attack... Reduce person and shrink item can both be made permanent. Would they stack?

Invisibility would end once the target attacks. Not sure exactly how everything else would work out.

Talic
2008-07-28, 02:28 AM
Spells check target when applied. They do not continually recheck for legality and dispel if not. For example, if I cast dominate person on a wizard, and tell him to go kill XXX ogre, he has to do so, if he polymorphs himself into an ogre to sneak in, his type changes to giant, no longer legal for dominate person. Yet the effect stays, because it was legal when cast.

Same with hold person and a corpse.

Eskil
2008-07-28, 06:04 AM
So... if someone was killed with a Fly spell active their corpse would sort of hover were it died? That would be unnerving to say the least.

Leewei
2008-07-28, 10:00 AM
Naturally the buff durations could be prohibative, but there are plenty of "permanent" spells or those that can be made permanent or researched to be made permanent. Just looking at the permanency list, enlarge person[i] could be used to make large undead, [i]invisibility normally can only be made permanent on objects but could be used while the subject is a corpse. Magic fang only works on a living creature... animate objects gives an object a slam attack... Reduce person and shrink item can both be made permanent. Would they stack?
Large, invisible zombies that become visible when they attack? Not bad. Given the XP cost for the permanency spells, and the problem of having to enlarge someone pre-mortem (then finish whatever is needed to convert them into undead), you're looking for a bizarrely complex set of conditions to pull something like this off more than a couple of times.

Magic fang cast and made permanent on your favorite end table when you've animated it seems reasonable.

Reduce person and shrink item would not stack per reduce person's description. Mind you, you could make a plushy of a miniaturized halfling.

In most cases here, the effect is balanced out by the XP cost.

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-28, 02:24 PM
Large, invisible zombies that become visible when they attack? Not bad. Given the XP cost for the permanency spells, and the problem of having to enlarge someone pre-mortem (then finish whatever is needed to convert them into undead), you're looking for a bizarrely complex set of conditions to pull something like this off more than a couple of times.

Magic fang cast and made permanent on your favorite end table when you've animated it seems reasonable.

Reduce person and shrink item would not stack per reduce person's description. Mind you, you could make a plushy of a miniaturized halfling.

In most cases here, the effect is balanced out by the XP cost.

Oh these were just rough examples I threw together with a glance through the PHB. I'm sure someone far more apt than I will come up with much better uses for this loophole.

...would it follow that a Spellstitched (MM2) creature keeps its SLAs if it is returned to life?

Leewei
2008-07-28, 05:53 PM
Interesting idea regarding spell-stitched undead. By RAW, I'd say it works, however I'd probably rule 0 against it.

I'll throw a further kink into the discussion. Spells that have a target are dispelled when the target is destroyed. Is a living being "destroyed" upon reaching -10 HPs, or does the damage have to be far more significant for destruction to occur?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-28, 06:24 PM
Interesting idea regarding spell-stitched undead. By RAW, I'd say it works, however I'd probably rule 0 against it.

I'll throw a further kink into the discussion. Spells that have a target are dispelled when the target is destroyed. Is a living being "destroyed" upon reaching -10 HPs, or does the damage have to be far more significant for destruction to occur?Or, was the actual target the beings mind/soul, and the spell therefore follows them to the far side of -10?

Chronicled
2008-07-28, 06:57 PM
Large, invisible zombies that become visible when they attack?

This would be unbelievably cool if used right. I may have to drop this idea into a campaign of mine.

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-28, 11:19 PM
This would be unbelievably cool if used right. I may have to drop this idea into a campaign of mine.

I dunno if it's worth the 1,000 xp per zombie for zombies that are only invisible until the first time they attack.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-29, 12:30 AM
I dunno if it's worth the 1,000 xp per zombie for zombies that are only invisible until the first time they attack.

Thats what Solar's are for.

Buy 1 scroll of gate, gate in a solar, have him use his 3/day permanency and then have him wish you up a scroll of gate.