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ghost_warlock
2008-07-27, 10:10 PM
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/pg.jpg

Hmmm. I know I can't be the only person to notice this.

Looking back, maybe P&G should have more closely examined the portents before they chose this logo, eh? :smalltongue:

Crow
2008-07-27, 10:18 PM
I'm not seeing anything...

...and have no idea what P&G is...

Maybe you could put the post into context for some people?

LoneGamer
2008-07-27, 10:34 PM
There are 13 stars. Your point?

Aquillion
2008-07-27, 10:47 PM
P&G = Proctor and Gamble. That's their old logo. It has 13 stars on it. They've been accused of Satanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procter_&_Gamble#Logo_controversy) (yes) as a result before.

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-27, 10:50 PM
Well, Thirteen Baleful Stars is a 25th level Star Pact Warlock power.

A quick Yahoo search tells me that the image is Proctor & Gamble's old logo that (according to Wikipedia) they haven't used for like 20 years. They changed it because they were accused of being Satanic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procter_&_Gamble#Logo_controversy

I really don't see what the two have to do with each other, or how it is relevant to anything.

Tallis
2008-07-27, 10:53 PM
Okay, I can see how people with too much time on their hands could get upset about the logo, but what is the connection to 4e?

RTGoodman
2008-07-27, 10:55 PM
P&G = Proctor and Gamble. That's their old logo. It has 13 stars on it. They've been accused of Satanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procter_&_Gamble#Logo_controversy) (yes) as a result before.

They certainly have been. I'm pretty sure I remember an article back in the early to mid '90s in National Enquirer (a.k.a. the dumbest hoax paper ever) about them changing their logo to a goat's head on an inverted pentagram. :smallsigh:

EvilElitest
2008-07-27, 11:00 PM
4E worships devils then. I thought only 1E did that
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KillianHawkeye
2008-07-27, 11:04 PM
Don't be ridiculous. 13 is an unlucky number. That's all the significance it has for this Warlock power. Remember that it is a star pact power, not an infernal pact power, so fiendish devil worshipping is not inherently implied. Also, there is nothing in the power's description to indicate anything unusual about it.

EDIT: Also, referencing mythology does not mean or even imply that the game's players, creators, designers, or editors (or anyone else) actually believes in said mythology.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-07-27, 11:35 PM
Don't be ridiculous. 13 is an unlucky number. That's all the significance it has for this Warlock power. Remember that it is a star pact power, not an infernal pact power, so fiendish devil worshipping is not inherently implied. Also, there is nothing in the power's description to indicate anything unusual about it.

EDIT: Also, referencing mythology does not mean or even imply that the game's players, creators, designers, or editors (or anyone else) actually believes in said mythology.

I don't know, once when I was playing a bard my DM took me into his basement to learn real bardic magic.

There were men in cloaks, standing around a pentagram and trying to inspire courage in me.

skywalker
2008-07-27, 11:39 PM
4E worships devils then. I thought only 1E did that
from
EE

Ironically, 1E's default religion was Christianity.

I've been mentioning that a lot lately...

ArmorArmadillo
2008-07-27, 11:40 PM
Ironically, 1E's default religion was Christianity.

I've been mentioning that a lot lately...

Yeah, but they had to change it for balance reasons. Summon Greater Jesus was broken.

Tallis
2008-07-28, 12:05 AM
Ironically, 1E's default religion was Christianity.

I've been mentioning that a lot lately...

I don't remember there being a default religion. Was it eliminated from later printings?

LoopyZebra
2008-07-28, 12:19 AM
Thirteen Stars, eh? It's obvious to me that this has nothing to do with Satanism OR unluckiness. Instead, warlocks use the power of Colonial America to destroy their foes.

It's fire and psychic damage. The fire is from muskets and cannon, and the psychic from the knowledge that you're fighting someone backed by America. The stunning is from our stunningly awesome flag. The fact that it does damage on a miss is because, well George Washington says so.

(Colonial American Pact Warlocks FTW!)

Falconer
2008-07-28, 12:33 AM
No no no. You have it wrong. '13 Baleful Stars' refers to a group of 13 celebreties who are helping a farmer carry his packages of hay, straw, wool, or cotton.

What? I'm proud of my weird and not necessarily funny jokes!

Tengu_temp
2008-07-28, 12:40 AM
4E worships devils then. I thought only 1E did that
from
EE

Of course. People who play 4e sooner or later all learn sorcery and black magic. Jack Thompson was correct, just two editions too early. That is the true reason why 4e is superior to 3.x!

skywalker
2008-07-28, 12:55 AM
I don't remember there being a default religion. Was it eliminated from later printings?Well, I can't tell you that for sure, but all the people I hang out with who played 1e back when it was new(which was before I was born) are sure that 1e's default was Christianity(possibly assumed?) I can't verify, but they all seem pretty sure of that, and I have seen sourcebooks that were written in the late 70s(you know, someone's campaign setting that's actually type-written it's so old) referring to Christianity. Maybe it was simply assumed? I mean, there's obviously some link with regards to clerics being barred edged weapons.

Another funny note, Gygax donated a sizable sum to the Christian Children's Fund.

But yeah, that devil worship...

Tallis
2008-07-28, 01:39 AM
Well, I can't tell you that for sure, but all the people I hang out with who played 1e back when it was new(which was before I was born) are sure that 1e's default was Christianity(possibly assumed?) I can't verify, but they all seem pretty sure of that, and I have seen sourcebooks that were written in the late 70s(you know, someone's campaign setting that's actually type-written it's so old) referring to Christianity. Maybe it was simply assumed? I mean, there's obviously some link with regards to clerics being barred edged weapons.

Another funny note, Gygax donated a sizable sum to the Christian Children's Fund.

But yeah, that devil worship...

I can definitely see where clerics and paladins are based on christian archetypes, but I don't remember any statement that christianity was the default in the books. Unfortunately I can't actually check right now since all my books are in storage at this point (I'm in the middle of moving:smallsmile:).
I can't speak for the original Dieties and Demigods, but it's replacement, Legends and Lore, did not include Christianity. It did have King Arthur and the Knights of the Round table, but didn't actually mention Christianity in the entry IIRC. The only living religion included was hinduism.

I do remember one of the books saying it's probably better to avoid modern religions to avoid controversy, but I couldn't say for sure that it was a 1e book.

Can anyone else out there confirm whether there was a default religion in 1e and if so what it was? I'm curious.

RTGoodman
2008-07-28, 02:13 AM
Can anyone else out there confirm whether there was a default religion in 1e and if so what it was? I'm curious.

Well, I don't know about religion, but 1st Edition AD&D's Monster Manual contains numerous reference to real-world places - rakshasas, for instance, come from that mythical fantasy nation of India. :smalltongue: Based on that, I'd say it's definitely POSSIBLE that 1AD&D and probably older versions at least MENTIONED Christianity.

ghost_warlock
2008-07-28, 02:48 AM
I really don't see what the two have to do with each other, or how it is relevant to anything.

This is how I think things went down:

The founders of P&G were actually star pact warlocks, trading their souls for a larger profit margin. They secretly crafted their logo to reflect their pact, slapping an image of Nodens down with a representation of Thirteen Baleful Stars (hoping to one day become powerful enough to actually harness that invocation).

However, as the company became more profitable, they become somewhat lax in keeping with their pact. Maybe they didn't contribute enough funds to the Cthulhu for President fund or something.

In the end, the Darkness Beyond the Stars decided to punish these unruly, ungrateful humans. However, the Old Ones didn't want to call unneccesary attention to themselves (they didn't want any Investigators fiddling about with their other cultists). So, they hatched a plot to fill the dreams of other mortals with images of the P&G logo, focusing on Noden's beard and the number '666'. The dreamers, sleep-deprived and supersticious anyway, simply assumed that P&G was a Satanic corporation and Took Steps to do away with the evil company.

The results were a PR nightmare (:smalltongue:) that eventually ended with P&G swapping logos (mostly) and making ammends with their Otherworldly benefactors (thus, they kept themselves from going bankrupt).

Kurald Galain
2008-07-28, 03:17 AM
I'd say it's definitely POSSIBLE that 1AD&D and probably older versions at least MENTIONED Christianity.

Certain spells, like Part Water and Flame Blade, are clear copyright violations from th the bible... :smalltongue:

Skyserpent
2008-07-28, 03:20 AM
Yeah, but they had to change it for balance reasons. Summon Greater Jesus was broken.

That's ****ing hilarious.

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-28, 09:10 AM
This is how I think things went down:

The founders of P&G were actually star pact warlocks, trading their souls for a larger profit margin. They secretly crafted their logo to reflect their pact, slapping an image of Nodens down with a representation of Thirteen Baleful Stars (hoping to one day become powerful enough to actually harness that invocation).

However, as the company became more profitable, they become somewhat lax in keeping with their pact. Maybe they didn't contribute enough funds to the Cthulhu for President fund or something.

In the end, the Darkness Beyond the Stars decided to punish these unruly, ungrateful humans. However, the Old Ones didn't want to call unneccesary attention to themselves (they didn't want any Investigators fiddling about with their other cultists). So, they hatched a plot to fill the dreams of other mortals with images of the P&G logo, focusing on Noden's beard and the number '666'. The dreamers, sleep-deprived and supersticious anyway, simply assumed that P&G was a Satanic corporation and Took Steps to do away with the evil company.

The results were a PR nightmare (:smalltongue:) that eventually ended with P&G swapping logos (mostly) and making ammends with their Otherworldly benefactors (thus, they kept themselves from going bankrupt).

Ah, I see. Lemme guess, the new leader of the Old Ones' more loyal cultists referred to this purge as Order 666? And spent a lot of time cackling maniacally?

Tallis
2008-07-28, 11:33 AM
Well, I don't know about religion, but 1st Edition AD&D's Monster Manual contains numerous reference to real-world places - rakshasas, for instance, come from that mythical fantasy nation of India. :smalltongue: Based on that, I'd say it's definitely POSSIBLE that 1AD&D and probably older versions at least MENTIONED Christianity.

A lot of D&D monsters are based on mythology. As were almost all the gods in Legends and Lore. I pretty sure christianity was mentioned. I've just never heard of it being the default religion in D&D and would like to know if anyone can confirm that it was the default religion.

EvilElitest
2008-07-28, 01:44 PM
Of course. People who play 4e sooner or later all learn sorcery and black magic. Jack Thompson was correct, just two editions too early. That is the true reason why 4e is superior to 3.x!

well at first i thought that was 1E, but apperently that was Christanity. 2E is Jewish, 4E is satan, and with 3E, you learn about Allah. Ok, i think i'm going to drop this subject now
from
EE

hamishspence
2008-07-28, 01:51 PM
13, seems to be lucky as well as unlucky: 13 buns in a "bakers dozen" 13 at the Last Supper (which may be when it switched over) But claiming that the number 13 is satanic is....stretching it. I remember a kiddie book series: the Puddle lane series, wich had one set of 5 books which went together, beginning with "When the clock stuck 13"

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-29, 04:53 AM
I'm willing to provide funnel cakes to all of you who want to summon some demons.

ZekeArgo
2008-07-29, 11:52 AM
Jack Thompson was correct, just two editions too early. That is the true reason why 4e is superior to 3.x!

I believe you mean Jack Chick here?

Lapak
2008-07-29, 12:32 PM
A lot of D&D monsters are based on mythology. As were almost all the gods in Legends and Lore. I pretty sure christianity was mentioned. I've just never heard of it being the default religion in D&D and would like to know if anyone can confirm that it was the default religion.I've read through the 1e rulebooks and played the edition plenty of times, and feel completely comfortable in stating that 1e did not have a 'default religion' at all, let alone setting aside Christianity as it. Yes, clerics were modeled on Crusader-style warrior-priests; no, the game never said 'these are Christian crusading clerics unless you've specifically chosen to worships Gruumsh or something.'

Blackdrop
2008-07-29, 12:43 PM
I believe you mean Jack Chick here?

No, no he means that addled-sack-of-crap, one foot in the grave, the other in mental institution, Jack Thompson.

skywalker
2008-07-29, 01:07 PM
No, no he means that addled-sack-of-crap, one foot in the grave, the other in mental institution, Jack Thompson.

No, it is quite possible(and probable) that he meant Jack Chick (https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp).

Tengu_temp
2008-07-29, 01:26 PM
Yeah, Chick. That's what you get for posting when you're still awake at a time when 90% of people are already awake.

EvilElitest
2008-07-29, 01:36 PM
No, it is quite possible(and probable) that he meant Jack Chick (https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp).

really, is that guy doing a parody, is he just that crazy (or is this too much on real life topics)
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Tengu_temp
2008-07-29, 01:41 PM
He's being serious. That's not a parody - on the opposite, most of the parodies are about him.

EvilElitest
2008-07-29, 02:47 PM
He's being serious. That's not a parody - on the opposite, most of the parodies are about him.

oh gods, i've lost my faith in everything. Other than chocolate
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