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its_all_ogre
2008-07-28, 12:07 PM
quick background piece:
bad guy is a wight monk-multiclass one of which is shadowdancer. he uses hide in plain sight to move around a ruined city and turns humanoids into wights, he also has some artefacts (effectively) that anyone living dropped into turns into an undead creature of my own creation.

there is an npc group of enemies who have access to some magical pools which they use to scry, they have some of his hair, bits of clothing and...whatever undead have in place of blood, because they have fought him off a few times.

they scry on him, he notices the sensor (which i'll come onto in a bit) and uses hide in plain sight...what happens?
i've been using this as a kind of spying session that enables them to see where he is roughly if they can see landmarks. so they get a heads up if he's about to attack their settlement (which is guarded by a horde of grimlocks so hiding in plain sight is less useful anyway).
effectively this reveals itself a bit like a video recorder above his head pointing straight down, they can see where he goes and what he does, they just cannot see him...
is this how you'd do this?
is there a right way?

also what the hell does a scrying sensor look like?:smallconfused:

Jimp
2008-07-28, 12:12 PM
they scry on him, he notices the sensor (which i'll come onto in a bit) and uses hide in plain sight...what happens?
...
effectively this reveals itself a bit like a video recorder above his head pointing straight down, they can see where he goes and what he does, they just cannot see him...


This is how I've always pictured it working.

Yakk
2008-07-28, 12:20 PM
I'd have it be in the general region of the creature.

Ie, imagine the Scrying effect to be "first, we find the spirit. Then we work out where the spirit is. Then we see what is there.". Hide in Plain Sight would screw up step 2 -- which results in the scrying attempt being inaccurate. The amount of inaccuracy wouldn't be something you could work out exactly, either -- sometimes it would be more inaccurate, sometimes less. It would tend to be consistent between adjacent scrying attempts, as the spell locks onto the same "wrong" thing again and again.

I'd also be tempted to make the scrying pool be all "shadowy", more than usual, making it really hard to make out details -- except sometimes, you get a clear look at something.

(Note that in this case, we have an example of magic working against magic, as the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is (Su) in origin. One could even argue that the Shadowdancer is colocating themselves on the plane of shadow to make themselves effectively invisible -- which would screw up scrying devices, as they would either be getting a semi-invalid target (not on this plane), or keep on seeing plane of shadow instead of reality.)

Curmudgeon
2008-07-28, 02:27 PM
(Note that in this case, we have an example of magic working against magic, as the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is (Su) in origin. One could even argue that the Shadowdancer is colocating themselves on the plane of shadow to make themselves effectively invisible -- which would screw up scrying devices, as they would either be getting a semi-invalid target (not on this plane), or keep on seeing plane of shadow instead of reality.) I don't buy this at all, Yakk. The use of Hide in Plain Sight is Supernatural, all right, but the result is just to enable Hide, which is purely mundane. Also the HiPS takes place entirely on the Shadowdancer's turn because of the way D&D works. On the scryers' turns they're opposing their Spots against the Shadowdancer's Hide, and the only magic involved is in the scrying itself; the HiPS is already done.

Also, please note that there's no interaction with the Plane of Shadow here; that's all in your imagination.

ericgrau
2008-07-28, 03:02 PM
Scrying

A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.

Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.


So the scrying sensor is a seperate sensory organ of yours that follows the target. i.e., you don't need your eyes or ears for it to work, but it does have similar capabilities to your own. The target may notice it (with a check) and hide from it, and I don't think it will follow if he's successful.

A lot of people misunderstand HiPS and hiding in general. There are two requirements you must fulfill to hide:
1. Must have cover/concealment. Obstacles, brush, shadowy illumination, light fog, etc. will work. This seems to be the biggest thing people don't understand. To hide you need to hide! You know, behind something or in something or in a dark place or etc.
2. Before you hide, you must not be observed while you move to cover/concealment

HiPS merely removes the 2nd requirement. That's it!! HiPS is not invisibility, nor is it anything like invisibility. The other way to negate the 2nd requirement is to create a diversion. Instead of saying, "Look, the goodyear blimp!" the shadowdancer uses HiPS to slip away. I would imagine it involves some kind of shadowy dance. By the second requirement, you normally couldn't hide from a scrying sensor, but with HiPS you could. Even then you better have 150 feet or more of concealment or it'll see you again as soon as you leave your hiding spot.

Heck, by the 1st requirement the easiest way to beat a shadowdancer is darkvision (within 60 feet, anyway). He can still hide behind other things, but his 1st level class feature is totally useless.

its_all_ogre
2008-07-28, 06:22 PM
hide in plain sight allows you to hide whenever you are within 10 feet of a shadow, in a city this is likely to be EVERYWHERE.
the wight will always stay within 10 feet of a shadow and has undead followers roaming around normally with him, so he can hide in theirs.

thanks to the helpful replies i have had so far.
the sensor thing bothers me a bit in that it is not described what the scried on individual sees. heat distortion despite no heat? floating eyeball?
no matter.

Mewtarthio
2008-07-28, 06:34 PM
I've always imagined the "heat distortion with no heat" trick.

namo
2008-07-28, 09:25 PM
This is how I've always pictured it working.

Agreed.

The caster should decide what the scrying sensor looks like: an eyeball, a face, a distorsion, a black star...

Yakk
2008-07-29, 12:31 PM
I don't buy this at all, Yakk. The use of Hide in Plain Sight is Supernatural, all right, but the result is just to enable Hide, which is purely mundane.
Yes, it is a supernatural ability using shadows that makes it possible to hide.


Also the HiPS takes place entirely on the Shadowdancer's turn because of the way D&D works. On the scryers' turns they're opposing their Spots against the Shadowdancer's Hide, and the only magic involved is in the scrying itself; the HiPS is already done.

Also, please note that there's no interaction with the Plane of Shadow here; that's all in your imagination.
Why yes, I was using my imagination, to create an evocative image, in a role playing game. I wasn't giving advice by RAW, I was giving evocative advice. :-)

The plane of shadow stuff? Fluff that makes the situation more interesting.

The real answer is simple: how much do you want the scrying NPCs to know about the BBEG's position? Creating a fluff/crunch reason for that much knowledge is easy.

Syne
2008-07-29, 01:05 PM
I'd say the spell would find the creature and allow the caster to approximate the creature's square. While it would not highlight the creature specifically, it would allow the caster a Spot check with a very high bonus because the caster knows what he is looking for and where it is.



Heck, by the 1st requirement the easiest way to beat a shadowdancer is darkvision (within 60 feet, anyway). He can still hide behind other things, but his 1st level class feature is totally useless.
This is inaccurate. If the Shadowdancer were to hide inside the shadow, thus gaining concealment, darkvision could penetrate the concealment and see him. However, Hide in Plain Sight does not require concealment. It does require shadows, but whether someone has darkvision or not does not change the existence of the shadow itself.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-29, 05:08 PM
A lot of people misunderstand HiPS and hiding in general.
You're included among them, too, alas.

There are two requirements you must fulfill to hide:
1. Must have cover/concealment. Obstacles, brush, shadowy illumination, light fog, etc. will work. This seems to be the biggest thing people don't understand. To hide you need to hide! You know, behind something or in something or in a dark place or etc.
2. Before you hide, you must not be observed while you move to cover/concealment

HiPS merely removes the 2nd requirement. That's it!!
No, that's not it, because while there are many Extraordinary versions of Hide in Plain Sight which work as you state, the Shadowdancer's version is Supernatural and also removes the first requirement.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Heck, by the 1st requirement the easiest way to beat a shadowdancer is darkvision (within 60 feet, anyway). He can still hide behind other things, but his 1st level class feature is totally useless. No, darkvision doesn't help at all. As the requirement for the Shadowdancer to Hide is merely a shadow nearby, it doesn't matter at all if the room is otherwise brightly lit so that everybody can see to the Shadowdancer's position, or if it's shadowy everywhere so only those with darkvision can see to that position. Regardless, the Shadowdancer doesn't need any cover/concealment to Hide behind/in. Thus darkvision provides no benefit whatsoever in this case.

aarondirebear
2008-07-31, 02:21 PM
I'd have it be in the general region of the creature.

Ie, imagine the Scrying effect to be "first, we find the spirit. Then we work out where the spirit is. Then we see what is there.". Hide in Plain Sight would screw up step 2 -- which results in the scrying attempt being inaccurate. The amount of inaccuracy wouldn't be something you could work out exactly, either -- sometimes it would be more inaccurate, sometimes less. It would tend to be consistent between adjacent scrying attempts, as the spell locks onto the same "wrong" thing again and again.

I'd also be tempted to make the scrying pool be all "shadowy", more than usual, making it really hard to make out details -- except sometimes, you get a clear look at something.

(Note that in this case, we have an example of magic working against magic, as the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is (Su) in origin. One could even argue that the Shadowdancer is colocating themselves on the plane of shadow to make themselves effectively invisible -- which would screw up scrying devices, as they would either be getting a semi-invalid target (not on this plane), or keep on seeing plane of shadow instead of reality.)

I've been trying for MONTHS to find a rules legal way of detecting a shadowdancer. Any luck on your end to finding a way?

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 03:31 PM
I've been trying for MONTHS to find a rules legal way of detecting a shadowdancer. Any luck on your end to finding a way?

Here's a foolproof way:

As a wizard (it's always a wizard, isn't it?), fly up into the sky (use a Phantom Steed, the Fly spell, or your own favorite flight option). Next, cast Wish and select the "transport travelers" option. Select the shadowdancer, who will then appear in the air before you, plainly visible because there are no shadows within 10 feet anywhere in midair. Or if you happen to have a wrinkly robe, there won't be any shadows within 10 feet about a second later, as the shadowdancer begins to plummet.

Finally, cast Time Stop. You may now view the plainly visible shadowdancer, suspended in midair in a frozen moment of plummeting, for 1d4+1 rounds, or 5 rounds if you used a rod to maximize it.

AceOfFools
2008-07-31, 07:42 PM
I've been trying for MONTHS to find a rules legal way of detecting a shadowdancer. Any luck on your end to finding a way?

Determine the square the SD is in within an accuracy of about 10', then glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) the area.

-40 on Hide checks will, in all likelyhood, render the SD visible, with the added benefit of forcing the bugger to make a will save or be blind for round/level.

Signmaker
2008-07-31, 09:00 PM
Finally, cast Time Stop. You may now view the plainly visible shadowdancer, suspended in midair in a frozen moment of plummeting, for 1d4+1 rounds, or 5 rounds if you used a rod to maximize it.

And load his pockets with a coupla Delayed Blast Fireballs for the road, eh? Wouldn't want him to take the trip for nuthin', would ya?

Pie Guy
2008-07-31, 09:24 PM
an evocative image

MAGIC MISSLE!

You had it coming.

Anyway, HiPS seems to only need a shadow. Nothing more. It grants its own cover, blah blah blah, It's supernatural! It doesn't follow normal physics.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 09:24 PM
And load his pockets with a coupla Delayed Blast Fireballs for the road, eh? Wouldn't want him to take the trip for nuthin', would ya?

That'll probably fail thanks to Evasion. A Forcecage death combo would probably work better if you're bent on killing the shadowdancer. I wouldn't count on the fall alone doing it, as smart rogue types tend to have UMD trained and have all kinds of neat magic tricks ready.

I always liked rogues better, and I've even tried to come up with strategies for fighting casters, but when you're a wizard, it's just all too easy. 3.x wizards are hax.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-01, 10:11 AM
Here's a foolproof way:

As a wizard (it's always a wizard, isn't it?), fly up into the sky ... Next, cast Wish and select the "transport travelers" option. Select the shadowdancer, who will then appear in the air before you, plainly visible because there are no shadows within 10 feet anywhere in midair.
Here's what's really going to happen:

You cast the spell, and you're suddenly plunged into shadowy illumination because the Shadowdancer has Deeper Darkness cast on a couple of attended items, with perhaps Ebon Eyes as the way of making that not an impediment. Why rely on ambient shadows when you can bring your own?

Fooled you.

namo
2008-08-01, 10:30 AM
Daylight (Evocation level 3) ?

Moriato
2008-08-01, 10:35 AM
I've been trying for MONTHS to find a rules legal way of detecting a shadowdancer. Any luck on your end to finding a way?

Blindsight

Arbitrarity
2008-08-01, 10:52 AM
Mindsight, tremorsense, scent, etc.

Now, a Shadowdancer with an item creating darkness + Darkstalker, try that.

Thrawn183
2008-08-01, 11:08 AM
Summon them into a trapped room?

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-01, 03:02 PM
Here's what's really going to happen:

You cast the spell, and you're suddenly plunged into shadowy illumination because the Shadowdancer has Deeper Darkness cast on a couple of attended items, with perhaps Ebon Eyes as the way of making that not an impediment. Why rely on ambient shadows when you can bring your own?

Fooled you.

So this shadowdancer walks around all day carrying items enchanted with Deeper Darkness? Wow, yes, that's ... (not) subtle ...

Still, it isn't as though the wizard can't just dispel or disjunction the darkness ...

Curmudgeon
2008-08-01, 05:11 PM
So this shadowdancer walks around all day carrying items enchanted with Deeper Darkness? Wow, yes, that's ... (not) subtle ...
It doesn't take much to make it subtle. Put Deeper Darkness on the tip of your blade and with Quick Draw it's always ready, but not blatant. Or just have the spell on a coin that you keep in your closed hand. Drop the coin and you've got shadows.

Still, it isn't as though the wizard can't just dispel or disjunction the darkness ... That's why you have multiple castings. A burst, unlike a spread, doesn't turn corners. If a Deeper Darkness effect is concealed inside a scabbard or your pocket, the Dispel isn't going to reach it. Since Deeper Darkness is cheap and lasts for days, it's quite feasible to have dozens of them on you. The Wizard is going to run out of Dispels before you exhaust your store of ready shadows.

KillianHawkeye
2008-08-01, 07:16 PM
The caster should decide what the scrying sensor looks like: an eyeball, a face, a distorsion, a black star...

I can't find a reference for it right now, but I thought for sure the scrying sensor used to be described as being invisible. Although, I suppose that still leaves it up in the air as to what it would look like to someone who could see invisibility.


Still, it isn't as though the wizard can't just dispel or disjunction the darkness ...

Or magic missile...

I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist. :smalltongue:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-01, 07:18 PM
It doesn't take much to make it subtle. Put Deeper Darkness on the tip of your blade and with Quick Draw it's always ready, but not blatant. Or just have the spell on a coin that you keep in your closed hand. Drop the coin and you've got shadows.

Wizard: Wish! Summon traveler!

DM: The shadowdancer appears! Roll initiative.

Shadowdancer: *rolls a 20*

Wizard: *rolls a 1* Guess I lost initiative.

Shadowdancer: I'm going to use Quick Draw to ...

Wizard: Haha. No I didn't. Celerity. Time Stop.

Shadowdancer: ... I hate you.


Or magic missile...

:smalltongue:

namo
2008-08-01, 08:57 PM
I can't find a reference for it right now, but I thought for sure the scrying sensor used to be described as being invisible. Although, I suppose that still leaves it up in the air as to what it would look like to someone who could see invisibility.
Yes, it's invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#scrying) and yes, the point was the See invisibility case. :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 01:43 AM
Wizard: Haha. No I didn't. Celerity. Time Stop.

Shadowdancer: ... I hate you. OK, so the Wizard can view the Shadowdancer, momentarily suspended in midair. Wiz still can't do anything that would harm SD before SD's turn comes around. Sure, Wiz can create a Forcecage, but that just keeps SD from falling when time resumes. Wiz can also Dispel some active spells (targeting one spell each casting, because the SD is an invalid target for the duration) but only if there's line of effect. Delayed Blast Fireball just wastes time unless SD rolls a 1 on a Reflex save.

When Time Stop ends SD can Quick Draw a wand of Dimension Hop and escape the Forcecage and/or make several Reflex saves against Delayed Blast Fireball. Additionally, SD can Quick Draw one of many items with Deeper Darkness and Hide yet again.

So, other than providing transient amusement, what's the point?

arguskos
2008-08-02, 01:59 AM
OK, so the Wizard can view the Shadowdancer, momentarily suspended in midair. Wiz still can't do anything that would harm SD before SD's turn comes around. Sure, Wiz can create a Forcecage, but that just keeps SD from falling when time resumes. Wiz can also Dispel some active spells (targeting one spell each casting, because the SD is an invalid target for the duration) but only if there's line of effect. Delayed Blast Fireball just wastes time unless SD rolls a 1 on a Reflex save.
Put a Decanter of Endless Water in the SD's hand/pocket. Turn it on. Cast Forcecage around the SD.

Alternatively, break the Time Stop by opening up with whatever super-powered death combo you feel like. IIRC, Time Stop will end automatically if such a thing happens, but the effect still goes through before anything else occurs. So, the wizard Time Stops, then blows the SD away with a guaranteed round of blasty-death.

-argus

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-02, 02:12 AM
OK, so the Wizard can view the Shadowdancer, momentarily suspended in midair. Wiz still can't do anything that would harm SD before SD's turn comes around. Sure, Wiz can create a Forcecage, but that just keeps SD from falling when time resumes. Wiz can also Dispel some active spells (targeting one spell each casting, because the SD is an invalid target for the duration) but only if there's line of effect. Delayed Blast Fireball just wastes time unless SD rolls a 1 on a Reflex save.

When Time Stop ends SD can Quick Draw a wand of Dimension Hop and escape the Forcecage and/or make several Reflex saves against Delayed Blast Fireball. Additionally, SD can Quick Draw one of many items with Deeper Darkness and Hide yet again.

So, other than providing transient amusement, what's the point?

The question wasn't "how does the wizard kill the shadowdancer?" it was how does the wizard detect the shadowdancer?"

If you want a kill ...

Wizard: Wish! Summon traveler!

DM: The shadowdancer appears! Roll initiative.

Shadowdancer: *rolls a 20*

Wizard: *rolls a 1* Guess I lost initiative.

Shadowdancer: I'm going to use Quick Draw to ...

Wizard: Haha. No I didn't. Celerity. Time Stop, maximized using my
Metamagic Maximize Rod. Uhhh ... Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Dimensional Lock, maximized Cloudkill, Forcecage, windowless cell version. Hey, listen, I'm gonna go get a soda. Want anything while I'm up?

Shadowdancer: ...

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 02:25 AM
Put a Decanter of Endless Water in the SD's hand/pocket. Turn it on. Cast Forcecage around the SD.

Alternatively, break the Time Stop by opening up with whatever super-powered death combo you feel like. IIRC, Time Stop will end automatically if such a thing happens You don't remember correctly, argus; neither of these things are possible.
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. You can't move an item so that it's held by somebody. You can't move their pocket to insert anything. You can't cast or do anything else that will harm somebody.

By the rules, the Shadowdancer gets a whole turn to act before anything you do can cause harm, because all harmful effects (like Delayed Blast Fireball) don't occur until just before the start of your next turn.

Also, the Decanter of Endless Water idea is really feeble. The 10' cube version of Forcecage holds 7480 gallons of water. The Decanter's "Geyser" option produces 30 gallons per 6 second round. Don't you think a smart opponent would be able to figure out something within 25 minutes? Like maybe just grab the Decanter and use the command word written on the side to turn it off? Or, if there's no such written word, just turn it off with Use Magic Device? Remember, Rogues are by far the most likely class to dip into Shadowdancer.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-02, 02:50 AM
In all fairness, I'm not sure you could actually do the Disjunction, given the rules on Time Stop and affecting items while it's going. Oh well -- so just the Cloudkill, the windowless Forcecage to trap the gas in for its entire duration, and Dimensional Lock. Then Teleport out and use Scrying to make sure the shadowdancer actually dies. If not, there's always room for another death combo.

Look, it's a 3.5e wizard. And in 3.5e, there's a rule. The rule is this:

Yes, the wizard wins.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 04:13 AM
Oh well -- so just the Cloudkill, the windowless Forcecage to trap the gas in for its entire duration
Nope; Cloudkill won't work that way:
A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one’s breath doesn’t help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.

Unlike a fog cloud, the cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground.

Figure out the cloud’s new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from the point of origin where you cast the spell. The spell requires that the cloudkill continue to move away from the origin point. What you think should happen when it's trapped inside a box doesn't matter; the vapors keep moving, compressing harmlessly against the far wall of the Forcecage (10' across) at the end of the next round, before the Shadowdancer would be required to roll a saving throw on your next turn.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-02, 04:37 AM
Nope; Cloudkill won't work that way: The spell requires that the cloudkill continue to move away from the origin point. What you think should happen when it's trapped inside a box doesn't matter; the vapors keep moving, compressing harmlessly against the far wall of the Forcecage (10' across) at the end of the next round, before the Shadowdancer would be required to roll a saving throw on your next turn.

Well, no. There's nothing in the Cloudkill spell description that states that it will (or can) compress itself into a thin, super-compressed wall of gas if blocked. That would be a houserule. Rules as written, what you have is a 10 foot x 10 foot section of the Cloudkill, which would very much like to move 10 feet per round away from you but can't because it's blocked by a plane of force.

RAW, it doesn't then compress flat for the same reason that you don't compress flat if you attempt to walk at a rate of 10 feet per round through the plane of force. That's because, RAW, it is a 10 foot x 10 foot thing ... period.

namo
2008-08-02, 04:53 AM
Indeed. The "compression" rule is pulled out of thin air.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 04:58 AM
Either the Cloudkill vapors continue to move, as required by the spell description, or the spell ends. No change to the function of the spell is permitted except as specified in the spell description. This is D&D, not physics.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-02, 05:24 AM
Either the Cloudkill vapors continue to move, as required by the spell description, or the spell ends. No change to the function of the spell is permitted except as specified in the spell description. This is D&D, not physics.

Which is why you just whack the Shadow Dancer with an Orb of Death (Maximized, Invisible, Energy Substituted, Energy Admixtured, Arcane: Theised Orb of Fire). It takes an 8th level slot and deals 180 points of damage. A Shadowdancer has a d8 HD and so do most of the classes used to get you into it. That averages out to 94 HP. Throw in 20 Con and your at 194 HP. Also known as 2 hits.

So Shapechange into a Chronotyne (gets 2 complete sets of actions) as a free action (it should already be up and running) and then whack the Shadowdancer with an Orb of Death and a second one without energy admixture (deals 90 damage and is a 4th level slot). Throw in 2 quickened true strikes if you are worried about hitting.

pingcode20
2008-08-02, 05:59 AM
Either the Cloudkill vapors continue to move, as required by the spell description, or the spell ends. No change to the function of the spell is permitted except as specified in the spell description. This is D&D, not physics.

Hold on, I'm going to have to call you on that one.

Why exactly does the spell end if it can't spread out?

I see nothing of the sort in the spell description. The spell spontaneously dispelling itself doesn't appear anywhere in it at all. As far as I can tell, it's just Magic Mustard Gas.

The spell description also says that they sink to the lowest level of the land. Does that mean that when it reaches a ditch, it spontaneously ends because it can't move away at 10' a round?

Reference to Cloudkill ending if prevented from spreading out, please? And reference to why exactly would the spell press up against the wall if prevented from expanding?

Situations RAW is mum on are conventionally resolved by physics/common sense.

---

On an unrelated note, the cloudkill death-box doesn't quite work if the shadowdancer has access to the (admittedly quite expensive) Mask of Sweet Air (Sandstorm wondrous item). Aka Magic Gas Mask.

---
Re: Scrying Sensor

I always envisioned it, when spotted, as a floating store security camera with a little sign under it reading 'Smile, you're on camera!' in a language the wizard is familiar with.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 05:21 PM
Hold on, I'm going to have to call you on that one.

Why exactly does the spell end if it can't spread out? I should know better than to post when I'm tried and should be going to bed instead. Here's what I was trying to get at, from the spell stacking rules.

Combining Magical Effects

Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. So even when you add Forcecage, Cloudkill still behaves as described. The vapors move to the far wall of the cage in the first round. (Ignore the term "compress". That's physics, not D&D. As I said, I was tired.)

There's also this:
One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant

Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion. So the Forcecage spell doesn't "end"; it's just irrelevant to the Cloudkill spell. The vapors move up to the far wall of the cage in the first round, and keep moving thereafter. After all, a Forcecage isn't impervious.
Windowless Cell

This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides. There's no note of a Forcecage causing suffocation, and you can escape it via mundane (though quite extraordinary) means: a DC 120 Escape Artist check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist) allows you to pass through a wall of force.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-02, 06:48 PM
There's also this: So the Forcecage spell doesn't "end"; it's just irrelevant to the Cloudkill spell. The vapors move up to the far wall of the cage in the first round

Except they don't because they're already at the far wall of the cage.


and keep moving thereafter.

Except they don't because there's a plane of force in the way.


After all, a Forcecage isn't impervious. There's no note of a Forcecage causing suffocation

True, but there's also no note specifically saying it can't. Also, Cloudkill is heavier (and presumably denser) than air, as stated right in the spell description.


and you can escape it via mundane (though quite extraordinary) means: a DC 120 Escape Artist check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist) allows you to pass through a wall of force.

There's also an epic prestige class (Unstoppable Dreadnought or something) that can break through force effects. However, neither of these special epic cases have anything at all to do with Cloudkill, nor do they specifically justify Cloudkill passing through a plane of force. That would be a houserule.

In any case, for every argument you can come up with against this one death combo, Tippy can come up with at least a dozen other even more broken ways to kill the shadowdancer. Look, I'm not saying it's right. I like rogues, and I never did especially like wizards. I certainly don't think that one class should be able to dominate the game, while anyone who isn't a primary spellcaster is rendered completely irrelevant.

It's just a simple fact that 3.x is broken, wizards are hax, and both problems are so fundamental to the system that the only real way around them (aside from moving on to a better system) is to houserule so constantly and arbitrarily that your players will hate you.

pingcode20
2008-08-02, 08:23 PM
I have to say, that's a very convoluted way of justifying the forcecage/cloudkill combo not functioning.

But, just like the DC 120 chink in the wall of force that can be exploited by certain epic characters, there's a chink in the armour of your argument.


A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

It may well not be impervious to gases, but Cloudkill is a spell, which gets explicitly blocked by (and interacted with) by a Wall of Force effect, which in turn is created by the Forcecage spell.

This does, in fact, mean that both the first and second arguments are flawed, because they rely on the premise that Walls of Force do not interact with Cloudkill spells, when, in fact, Walls of Force are explicitly said to affect spells by preventing them from passing.

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Another simple method of preventing forcecage/cloudkill death is simply to carry a rod of cancellation in a pouch.

Shadowdancer throws rod at wall, wall vanishes, cloudkill flows out opening.