Final Fantasy MCCCLLLII!!!

[Linkavitch]

Honestly, I don't even play Final Fantasy, but who else feels that a fantasy isn't really 'final' if there are 13+ sequels to it?

[Geno9999]

really, it's more like different worlds. But as you said, it's not "final" if said world had a sequel.

[Siosilvar]

Great, now I have to upload this trophy to Photobucket.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj165/siosilvar/ff.png

[Tengu_temp]

Final Fantasy (one) was named like that because when guys from Square were releasing it, they had a lot of financial problems - so either this project would be a great success, or they'd go bankrupt. Hence, Final Fantasy.

[Dairun Cates]

Final Fantasy (one) was named like that because when guys from Square were releasing it, they had a lot of financial problems - so either this project would be a great success, or they'd go bankrupt. Hence, Final Fantasy.


Exactly, and then subsequently releasing "Hahahaha. Just Kidding. Lots of New Fantasies to Come" Fantasy just didn't roll off the tongue. It's a name recognition thing.

[DraPrime]

Well at the point when they made FFX-2 I stopped seriously thinking that anything was "final" in this damn series.

[Reinforcements]

Now, I don't actually know this, but I'm sure that when Final Fantasy II was released, someone somewhere said, "Haha, Final Fantasy TWO? Guess the first on wasn't so final!"

And you know what? IT WASN'T FUNNY THEN.

[Oslecamo]

Well, you gotta admit, in the FF series, when the main party wins, it's normally their last adventure.

Except FF X-2. Now that was really a bad joke. But lots of fanservice.

Now compare it with, for example, Metal Gear, when the main hero just keeps coming back, or Mario, or Resident Evil, where no matter how many times you save the world the same problem arises again.

[Cubey]

Now, I don't actually know this, but I'm sure that when Final Fantasy II was released, someone somewhere said, "Haha, Final Fantasy TWO? Guess the first on wasn't so final!"

And you know what? IT WASN'T FUNNY THEN.

But, it's like, totally hilarious! Almost as much as cake jokes! The cake is a lie! :smallbiggrin: Lol! :smallbiggrin:

This post is not serious.

[Tirian]

Well, you gotta admit, in the FF series, when the main party wins, it's normally their last adventure.

Except FF X-2. Now that was really a bad joke. But lots of fanservice.

Dirge of Cerberus is also a follow-up game. And movies for both VII and XII that make it clear that no one is able to retire just because they got to the end of their story. Even inside the continuity of the more recent games themselves, the BBEG is level 60 or so and it is hard to proclaim any sort of "finality" to their defeat when the world is still filled with any number of level 99+ perils.

Frankly, it's rare for anglicized Japanese game titles to make sense. Star Ocean, .hack, Kingdom Hearts -- none of them are going to get past the "What's THAT supposed to mean" police. And FF's competitors on our side of the Pacific were churning out series with titles like Ultima and Wizardry which aren't any more accurate.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I thought Star Ocean was called that because is was Final Fantasy IN SPACE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE)! And Space Is An Ocean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean), you know.

[Tirian]

Sure, but the same level of pedantry as the OP would then ask why the game isn't called Space Ocean or Star Islands or something like that.

(And it isn't. They're all JRPGs, of course, but Star Ocean 3 doesn't look or play like a Final Fantasy game any more than any two manga seem like the same thing. I've never seen the other SOs though.)

[Nerd-o-rama]

I just assume that all JRPGs are clones of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest if they're at all popular, but that's because I'm ridiculously cynical.

[Tengu_temp]

I thought Star Ocean was called that because is was Final Fantasy IN SPACE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE)! And Space Is An Ocean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean), you know.

This, and on top of that it copies Star Trek in a way that wouldn't be even funny if it wasn't so funny.

[Trazoi]

First I need to satiate the pedant inside me: your Roman numeral bugs me. You can't have consecutive Ls as L stands for fifty, so you'd use another C instead of two of those Ls.

Tengu_temp's already posted the reason for the name, so I won't reiterate it here. I don't particularly have a problem with "Final Fantasy". It seems to make more sense than the names given to manga or anime.

What does bother me is the numbering which went loco when they released Final Fantasy X-2. The voice overs on the commercials should have tipped them off how ridiculous that sounds - "Final Fantasy Ten ... Two!".

Then they went with Final Fantasy XI for what should have just been called Final Fantasy Online.

It's all a bit crazy, but no more so than some other series. Take Grand Theft Auto IV for example, where apparently there are three games in the Grand Theft Auto III series.

[BizzaroStormy]

Final Fantasy was good up until X-2. While I did appreciate the closure that X-2 offered....
If you completed most of the sidequests, Yuna is reunited with Tidus at the end
....it still doesn't change the fact that it was one of the weaker games in the series.

FFXI Is a MMORPG, one with a monthly fee the last I checked so I was never able to start it but from what I've heard its like WoW in a Final Fantasy setting.

FFXII had to be the worst video game purchase I ever made. Not only did the new combat system suck, but the license system, gambit system, and butchering of the moogles were just awful. There was also the story, or lack thereof. I got to the part after you fully escape from this big prison-like ship or whatever and are put in some town floating in the sky. At this point, the only thing I saw having anything to do with the story was...

...that Ashe was the princess that was supposedly dead from the beginning but we all knew that the first time we saw her.

At any rate I'm just hoping FFXIII won't be so disappointing, especially considering Squaresoft being abandoned by some of the key figures in the FF franchise. I personally consider Lost Odyssey the new final fantasy because it was. Not only were the similarities obvious but they even had the refugees from Square working on it. Plus the ship's captain was name Cid.

[banjo1985]

The Final Fantasy Series peaked at FF9, in my opinion, and there hasn't been a good one since FFX.

Mind you, videogame RPG's in general seem to be getting worse. Is it a bad sign that I think all the best RPG's I've played were on the PS1?

As for Final Fantasy, it's a tired series that once reached the peak of video gaming, but it should have ended 2 or 3 games ago.

[Pagz]

FFXII had to be the worst video game purchase I ever made. Not only did the new combat system suck, but the license system, gambit system, and butchering of the moogles were just awful. There was also the story, or lack thereof. I got to the part after you fully escape from this big prison-like ship or whatever and are put in some town floating in the sky.I have to agree, I didn't even finish the game after it just didn't hold me anymore... I mean, I finished final fantasy 9 and I think it was better then FFXII. FFX-2 wasn't that bad, I mean it was fun to play through twice, unlike 12... why did they make it so bad it so bad?!


Heres hoping that 13 will be the savior we're all hoping for.

[BizzaroStormy]

Yeah, I ended up hocking my copy of FFXII the day after I bought it. I got lucky because the used game shop gave me the full $50 for it. Gave me just enough to buy my 360.

[Mando Knight]

First I need to satiate the pedant inside me: your Roman numeral bugs me. You can't have consecutive Ls as L stands for fifty, so you'd use another C instead of two of those Ls.

I was going to comment on the same thing, but with the two L's and three C's, the proper number would be MCDLII, or 1852.

Anyway, I hope to sometime get FF IV DS, which has gotten rather good reviews, and I didn't have the chance to play it the other two times around, so... Oddly enough, my "friendly" neighborhood Wal-Mart has decided that they won't carry the game in-store because of possible mature content. It's rated E 10+, and they carry Halo 3 and MGS4, but not FF IV... the DS Ninja Gaiden was rated T, and it's at Wal-Mart, too.:smallannoyed:

I'm also waiting for Super Mario RPG Final-Chrono-Fantasy-Trigger to be released for the Wii VC.

[Duke of URL]

Frankly, it's rare for anglicized Japanese game titles to make sense. Star Ocean, .hack, Kingdom Hearts -- none of them are going to get past the "What's THAT supposed to mean" police.

You had a problem understanding Kingdom Hearts? The story isn't really complicated at all, and far less so than in Kingdom Hearts II (especially if you didn't play Chain of Memories).

[Calamity]

The Final Fantasy Series peaked at FF9, in my opinion, and there hasn't been a good one since FFX.

Mind you, videogame RPG's in general seem to be getting worse. Is it a bad sign that I think all the best RPG's I've played were on the PS1?

As for Final Fantasy, it's a tired series that once reached the peak of video gaming, but it should have ended 2 or 3 games ago.

Yes they have been declining. I agree. But they have released FFVII: Crisis Core fairly recently and that was pretty good. I really enjoyed it.

I have had no idea what they were thinking about in regards to the battle system in FFXII though. it just seems to be that they were too scared to get rid of turn based combat but wanted to go to real time. So they compromised and went somewhere in between. So they created a sytem where you can just sit then bored to death occaisionly selecting an action.

And as for the PS1 RPGs, well best RPG I've ever played is FFVIII so I'd agree with you there. I don't think FF should end though. I just think that they need to find a way to make it work lik they proved they can do.

[Bryn]

You had a problem understanding Kingdom Hearts? The story isn't really complicated at all, and far less so than in Kingdom Hearts II (especially if you didn't play Chain of Memories).

I believe that was referring to the title of the games, and not the actual plotlines. The words 'Kingdom Hearts' are pretty meaningless together, althoug that isn't restricted to titles in Japan.

[Reinforcements]

The "Other Games" forum sure is depressing me today. First a thread dedicated to hating on Super Paper Mario, and now people are hating on Final Fantasy XII, the best one since FFVI? Really?

What we should be ranting about these days (re: Final Fantasy) are the whoring out of FFVII. Okay, Crisis Core is good, but Dirge of Cerberus and Advent Children are crimes against humanity. Or at least against entertainment.

[Calamity]

The "Other Games" forum sure is depressing me today. First a thread dedicated to hating on Super Paper Mario, and now people are hating on Final Fantasy XII, the best one since FFVI? Really?

What we should be ranting about these days (re: Final Fantasy) are the whoring out of FFVII. Okay, Crisis Core is good, but Dirge of Cerberus and Advent Children are crimes against humanity. Or at least against entertainment.

Highly disagree with the first paragraph (but you aleady knew that, I guess).
FFXII is one of the very few games I lost all interest in before completion, the story is dull and gets even duller as the game progress. A good game does not make you wish you'd not wasted the money on it.

I agree about FFVII though. It's easier to pretend Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus never existed. And I would class FFVII as an 'alright' game, but not as special as a lot of people make it out to be.

[banjo1985]

Am I the only one that loved Advent Children?

To me it was the last good thing to come out of the setting/series.

[Tirian]

I believe that was referring to the title of the games, and not the actual plotlines. The words 'Kingdom Hearts' are pretty meaningless together, althoug that isn't restricted to titles in Japan.

Well, you start off thinking that it means something, since you are saving the hearts of a bunch of different worlds. But then in the climax it is revealed that Kingdom Hearts is actually the heart of the multiverse (Kingdoms Heart?), and then it turns into something totally different in the sequel. When KH3 comes out, I suspect that Kingdom Hearts will be revealed to be the name of Sora's sled. :smallwink:

I think it's much more charming to stick with the Japanese title. Ask four people what "Katamari Damacy" means and you'll get four different answers. The spirit of togetherness? A wad of souls? It's all that and more. Sublime!

[Reinforcements]

Am I the only one that loved Advent Children?
I hope so... but no, actually, thousands of nerds agree with you. To me, Advent Children is the nadir of everything wrong with FFVII, the ultimate expression of raw commercialism and pointless fanservice, utterly devoid of creativity. I could go on and on about how much I loathe this movie... but I won't. You're welcome.

I WILL digress, however, to mention that FFVII fanservice is why I never finished Kingdom Hearts 2. I had picked up the game again after not playing it for several weeks - I think I had just gotten through Tron - and what's the VERY first thing that happens after I walk off the save point screen? A pointless, incomprehensible conversation between Cloud and Sephiroth about god knows what. I turned it off and never played it again.

[banjo1985]

It should be mentioned that I'm not an FF7 nerd. I didn't like the game very much and never finished it, and found Dirge of Cerberus to be pretty dire. But I really liked the Advent Children movie, crass commercialism or not.

KH2 was average, not a patch on the first game in terms of gameplay, though the early sequences with Roxas are worthy of some note.

I personally would like to stick whoever came up with FFX-2 in a giant food blender and watch them be eviscerated. Whoever thought a videogame version of Charlies Angels would be a great direction for the series should not be allowed to breed.

[Aidan305]

WILL digress, however, to mention that FFVII fanservice is why I never finished Kingdom Hearts 2. I had picked up the game again after not playing it for several weeks - I think I had just gotten through Tron - and what's the VERY first thing that happens after I walk off the save point screen? A pointless, incomprehensible conversation between Cloud and Sephiroth about god knows what. I turned it off and never played it again.

That's so that, in 40 levels time, you can go back and beat up Sephy.

I'm currently replaying Final Fantasy XII. It's exactly as dull as I remembered. Why did they have to hurt the plot so?

As regards XIII, I'm uncertain about it since the director doesn't exactly have good titles behind him.

[Haruki-kun]

I personally would like to stick whoever came up with FFX-2 in a giant food blender and watch them be eviscerated. Whoever thought a videogame version of Charlies Angels would be a great direction for the series should not be allowed to breed.

I think FF X-2 was a good idea, but TERRIBLY developed. If what they wanted was to continue the story from where it left off, they could have done it better, or made it shorter. Or you know what? Make a movie, like they did with Advent Children. That would have worked better.

I do have to admit that I sorta liked the battle system in FF X-2, and the scene with Yuna singing 1000 Words.

[Tirian]

I'm currently replaying Final Fantasy XII. It's exactly as dull as I remembered. Why did they have to hurt the plot so?


The conventional wisdom is that it is because Yasume Matsuno had to leave the producer/director's role halfway through development and his replacements couldn't agree on much of anything. So, in the end, nothing was tied together. And then the localization producer decided that it would be amusing if half of the English actors used archaic language and curious accents.

I think that FFXII gets the same B rating as just about every other FF game. The dev team takes a lot of chances and some work while others fall flat. I love that combat takes place on the world map and think that the gambit system is a great improvement on micromanaging every player's every move. The graphics are stunning and world travel is relatively painless. On the downside, quickenings and espers are unusable, the license system turns your characters into clones, and the plot is half-baked. But, hey, I can name three major things that are wrong with every FF game.

As far as quitting KH2 because of that awful scene between Sephy and Cloud -- you didn't miss much. Unfortunately, you also didn't miss wherever it was that they were going with the darkness and the heart and the settling once and for all. I'm afraid they're not going to forget to put that in KH3.

[DiscipleofBob]

Oh dear... too many games here to address... O_o

Let's see, Final Fantasy XIII I'm already pissed about. Not because it's on the PS3 or the 360, or because of the new combat system (Not a big fan of the realtime direction from FF12, but they could pull off something pretty fun with that), no what ticks me off is that they're ALREADY making a bunch of different games for different systems like they did with FF7, KH, and the whole Ivalice thing. It's like if I want to appreciate the full story and setting, I'd have to buy every system in existence and get every game, only to STILL fall short because I don't think there is a way to get the Mobile Phone Final Fantasy games in America. I can appreciate the marketing strategy but holy crap! I'd hope Square finds some good in its now decrepit, blackened soul to release one, single collection of all the games in one world, and release it on multiple platforms.

FF12... Soo many thing wrong with this game. Where to begin? The hours of pointless grinding to get anywhere, the complete reliance on computer AI for your allies (which, no matter how many gambits you put on there, is still retarded), the disturbingly high difficulty of any truly rewarding sidequest, the reliance on a purely luck-based limit break system which either becomes a one-shot or screws me over due to having no MP left. Let's just talk about the story here... Instead of giving me characters of these immensely diverse, interesting races (Bangaa, Moogle, etc.) to play with, they give me 5 humans and a bunny girl in a dominatrix outfit. Balthier and Basch were awesome, and I'll accept Ashe (despite how annoying she gets sometimes), but Vaan and Penelo really had no place in the story whatsoever and I fought malboros with more personality than Fran. The plot didn't really appeal to me, but I won't fault the game for that as political intrigue just really isn't my thing.

EDIT: Also, FF12 makes a lot more sense when you instead name it "Episode 12: The Phantom Menace."

FFXI... online RPG, one that relies on monthly subscription and promises nothing besides a tack-on to the Final Fantasy franchise. Pass.

FFX and FFX-2. Oddly enough, FFX happened to be my favorite in the series, just barely beating out FFVI and only because Auron is the single, coolest character in the entirety of the Final Fantasy series. The story was beautifully done, the characters were quirky without being incredibly annoying (though I seem to have a higher tolerance in this area than others), and I believe this was the first game I actually cried during the ending. FFX-2 had some glaring flaws: most notably the weird Charlie's Angels feel, and the 100% completion thing in an episodic game where it's easy to miss the slightest detail and therefore forces you to go back many times to make sure you talk to every single person, complete every single side mission during every chapter, etc. However, FFX-2 had good points as well. I appreciated the fast-paced battle system. It wasn't superior to FFX's, but it did get your adrenaline rushing a lot of the time. Also, FFX-2 had the best job/class system I have ever seen, and I include Final Fantasy Tactics in this as well. Smooth, allows transition mid-battle, every class feels unique and useful with only a precious few exceptions. Overall, not the best Final Fantasy but I still had fun.

Final Fantasy VII - Not worth the hype people give it, and Square is determined to continue teasing us with more games on alternate systems that we'll probably never own. Not a bad game, but better by itself than with some of these other spinoffs. Advent Children I can purely appreciate for the second half of the movie which sets a new standard to the term "action sequence." Dirge of Cerberus I can at least appreciate for at least giving Vincent some plot development, even if the rest of the game was a pure load of crap. Honestly, Square just needs to stop trying with this one. If they want to continue the franchise so bad, just put out another movie or maybe some novels or manga. Don't release another bad game on an obscure system that introduces X (where X is a secret plot-important NPC that somehow escaped notice in the original game.)

Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II remain some of my favorite games today. Chain of Memories... let's just pretend that didn't exist, k? The problem right now is that Square just can't leave the series alone. They're going the way off FFVII publishing side games for EVERY system, even a cell phone game, as if they're trying to ensure that no one person will ever be able to experience the full story, and anyone who does go for all the extra games and somehow gets them will most likely be rewarded with a below-average gameplay experience, such as a hackneyed card-battling system, and one or two relevant plot points.

Also, after the first game, the story was harder to follow than The Fellowship of the Ring written backwards in code on an Escher painting, and had plot holes large enough to fly the gummi ship through.


I think I had just gotten through Tron - and what's the VERY first thing that happens after I walk off the save point screen? A pointless, incomprehensible conversation between Cloud and Sephiroth about god knows what. I turned it off and never played it again.

Ironically, you just missed what I would consider probably the best part of the game. Granted, after the awesome was over, you'd see that you have to go back and revisit all the worlds and THEN turn the game off and never go back.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I hope so... but no, actually, thousands of nerds agree with you. To me, Advent Children is the nadir of everything wrong with FFVII, the ultimate expression of raw commercialism and pointless fanservice, utterly devoid of creativity. I could go on and on about how much I loathe this movie... but I won't. You're welcome.Well, it was missing most of the incomprehensibility and out-of-context religious symbolism (until the end, I mean) that also sucked about FFVII.

Freaking Japanese and their freaking Kabbalah.

I thought the animation in Advent Children was good, and am willing to watch it as a pointless action movie. As a Final Fantasy product, however, it's pretty terrible.

I'm going to say the series proper peaked in gameplay at V, and in storytelling at VI (although honestly, VII isn't too bad a story until about halfway through).

[Thorosofmyr]

Before the FFX-2s and the Dirge of something or other, my friends had a theory about the name that we really liked. We all understood that the name came from it being supposedly the last game they were going to make etc etc, but we kinda believed this anyway.

For all of these separate worlds, the player was watching their final conflict. This event was the "final fantasy" of the world, after which when the heroes were successful, life would go on. It took the very overdone joke of "ha ha there is more than one and it's called final" and kinda romanticized it. Maybe I just like enjoying my entertainment, I dunno.

I've enjoyed the series thus far, and look forward to mooching off my friend's 360/ps3 to enjoy the next one. $300/$400 for a console? No thank you.

[Khanderas]

Now, I don't actually know this, but I'm sure that when Final Fantasy II was released, someone somewhere said, "Haha, Final Fantasy TWO? Guess the first on wasn't so final!"

And you know what? IT WASN'T FUNNY THEN.
So true. :)

Background, as already mentioned, Final Fantasy was going to be the last hurrah before flunking, but it was so successful they got enough money to keep afloat, something that came as a complete suprise.
Naturally a sequel or two and the name became a franchise and could not be changed.

Frankly we should all be glad what happened, did happen. Even those that dont particulary like the genre since it did and does revitalise the gaming industry. If you dont like that, why are you on this forum ? :D

[Reinforcements]

As a random side note, anyone else notice the bizarre naming convention they're using for the FFVII spin-offs? We have Advent Children (AC), Before Crisis (BC), Crisis Core (CC), and Dirge of Cerberus (DC). Weird.

[Tengu_temp]

Am I the only one that loved Advent Children?


I didn't love it, but I liked it. It was a good action movie with characters I know and like, even if it was much more shallow than the actual game.

7 is my second favorite Final Fantasy. First is 6, of course.

[potatocubed]

The plot didn't really appeal to me, but I won't fault the game for that as political intrigue just really isn't my thing.

Just as an aside, political intrigue is my thing and the plot was still asstastic.

And weighing in with my opinions of the Final Fantasy games:

- X is my favourite. Love it love it love it.
- Hate XII. Won't be buying XIII because it is apparently like XII, but more so.
- Love Lost Odyssey - this is what I want from a JRPG. Turn-based combat, cool characters (Mack excepted), and a compelling plot. Plus, more sexy librarians in my roleplaying games please. :smallsmile:
- I liked VII but I don't think it's as good as the hype says.
- I liked VI but, once again, I don't think it's as good as the hype.
- I'm playing IX at the moment and I like it. Is it supposed to be bad or something?

And not forgetting... Final Fantasy Tactics! I'm playing A2 on my DS on the way to and from work at the moment and I think it's top. Well, except for the FF12 fanservice (go to hell, Vaan) but that's mostly optional so I can cope. I found out the other day that I missed the quest at level 20 where you start getting scions, so I get to go back now I'm level 40-odd and waste time on that. Oops. :smalltongue:

[Haruki-kun]

- I liked VII but I don't think it's as good as the hype says.

It's all about the big sword and the cool villain. :smalltongue:

[Coplantor]

First FF i played was IX when i was XI years old, i bought it just because somewhere ired that FF games were good, my god, that game was awesome, it was the first RPG I played with the "wait bar" system for fights, Its a shame that my mother sold my PS1 believing that we didnt played it anymore just when i reached the half of the second CD. Anyway, the only FF i ever finished was FF I and I loved it, the "leveling" system of FF II is quite intrestng and id love to see it on more games. FF III, I cant get it, i need a DS! stupid DS. FF IV, played that one on SNES, nice game. FF V, i have it but im waiting to finish another FF before start playing that one. FF VI is by far the best ive played, although it dissapeard shortly after I reached the part in wich Celes reunites with Edgar and his brother in the post apocalyptic world. VII and VIII, i have'nt played those, they seem nice, but I dont think that they diserve the fanboyism they have FF VI ROCKED!!!!. Of the PS2 ones i only played X - 2, i liked it, but i got bored near the end, devil may cry 3 was involved with that. The tactics advance game is really good, Im about to finish that one.

As for the name, I always thought that it was related to the fact that, in the first game after the heroes defeated the BBEG they... returned to their time and no one remembered the events prior to their travel to the past and thus, the greatest story of their world was just a "final fantasy" in the minds of the four namless heroes. And after the sequels, it just stucked as a canonical name.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's all about the big sword and the cool villain. :smalltongue:I preferred the cyberpunk and the quirky miniboss squad, myself.

[Sneak]

I always figured it was originally called Final Fantasy because the guy who came up with the idea for it was gonna retire after the game was finished, but then it was so successful that Square tied him up in a chair and locked him in a closet and forced him to write sequels.

But maybe that's just me. :smalltongue:

[Threeshades]

First I need to satiate the pedant inside me: your Roman numeral bugs me. You can't have consecutive Ls as L stands for fifty, so you'd use another C instead of two of those Ls.

Let it put me in words for you: Onethousandthreehundredandonehundredfiftytwo

[Drascin]

I do have to admit that I sorta liked the battle system in FF X-2, and the scene with Yuna singing 1000 Words.

Same, actually. I did most of the training and tweaking for my cousin when she wanted to beat the game, and I didn't care much, because the battle system was entertaining enough. Not as much as VP Silmeria's (first RPG ever where I've never run from a random encounter due to sheer boredom), but it was entertaining.

[Mx.Silver]

- I'm playing IX at the moment and I like it. Is it supposed to be bad or something?

The Creator of the series considers it his personal favourite, if that's worth anything.

I quite liked it, decent overall characterisation and a fairly good plot. Combat wasn't bad, although the Regen+Boost Summon trick could make the later Boss Fights a bit tame.

[Inhuman Bot]

Responding to the first pages FF VII: Yeah, Final fantasy VII is untouchable, as many people who have played it haven't played an rpg before it! I really don't like final fantasy in general, yetI feel kind of deppressed that it's always portrayed as so awesome you need no other.... Then again, I did like (what I've played of) dirge of cerberus, so you can't belive in my judgement apperantly >.>

[Tirian]

- I'm playing IX at the moment and I like it. Is it supposed to be bad or something?

I guess it depends on what you expect from the franchise. There are certainly a lot of people who think that IX was the only "real" Final Fantasy game created since VI, just like there are people who think that going back toward chibi after VII and VIII was an automatic deal-breaker.

I tried it twice, but couldn't get into it. Freya and Garnet were the only characters I cared about, and most of the rest were annoying to be around, particularly when I have to endure a teenage love triangle emo drama. I found the game to be particularly grindtastic on the first disk where you needed to not only survive tough boss fights but to only start fighting after your pathetic steal percentage finally paid off. And a host of Guide Dang It (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt) moments, like high-prize minigames that you only have one opportunity to play and synthesis recipes that require items that are only sold on disk 1 in a town before you have enough money to waste.

They did some things right, but like I say it just didn't hold me. I'd probably have finished the game, but I had a scratch halfway through disk 3 and stopped there.

[Rogue 7]

I'm happy about XIII coming to the 360 so that at long last Final Fantasy will be on a system that I own. My first was the N64, so I missed out. The only FF I've ever played is something like 5 minutes of FF X at a friend's. So I'll be picking this up, just to actually play a Final Fantasy game.

[The Evil Thing]

It is a little rich to be harping on about how Final Fantasy isn't particularly final when we have nineteen Ultima releases in total, none of which are particularly ultimate (except for Ultima IX but that was because Ultima X got cancelled). Go on, count them.

1. Akalabeth: World of Doom
2. Ultima I: The First Age of Darkness
3. Ultima II: The Revenge of the Enchantress
4. Ultima: Escape from Mt. Drash
5. Ultima III: Exodus
6. Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar
7. Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny
8. Ultima VI: The False Prophet
9. Worlds of Ultima: The Savage Empire
10. Ultima: Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams
11. Ultima VII: The Black Gate
12. Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
13. Ultima VII: Forge Of Virtue
14. Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds
15. Ultima VII Part 2: Serpent Isle
16. Ultima VII Part 2: The Silver Seed
17. Ultima VIII: Pagan
18. Ultima Online
19. Ultima IX: Ascension

And that's not counting the console ports (of which there are ten).

[Fan]

Final Fantasy is awesome, {Scrubbed}

[Tengu_temp]

Well, let's say your name kinda gives away your opinion.

[Tirian]

1. Akalabeth: World of Doom
2. Ultima I: The First Age of Darkness
3. Ultima II: The Revenge of the Enchantress
4. Ultima: Escape from Mt. Drash
5. Ultima III: Exodus
6. Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar
7. Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny
8. Ultima VI: The False Prophet
9. Worlds of Ultima: The Savage Empire
10. Ultima: Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams
11. Ultima VII: The Black Gate
12. Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
13. Ultima VII: Forge Of Virtue
14. Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds
15. Ultima VII Part 2: Serpent Isle
16. Ultima VII Part 2: The Silver Seed
17. Ultima VIII: Pagan
18. Ultima Online
19. Ultima IX: Ascension

If you are attempting to argue that Ultima is a longer series, then this isn't a persuasive list. Forge of Virtue and Silver Seed are expansion packs; if you're going to count them as separate games then you should also count every time Square remastered a FF game and added a few bonus monsters. Ultima Worlds and Underworld are quite separate franchises; again if you think those are Ultima games then you'd have to start counting the FFT series and even Kingdom Hearts as FF games. And Escape from Mt. Drash? Tell me you're not seriously counting a game that wasn't written by Origin Systems or authorized by Richard Garriott, to say nothing of the fact that it was nearly literally "released" straight to a landfill.

Heck, if that's your criteria, then the Might and Magic franchise is larger than both. I suppose that's probably because it consistently contains both mighty and magical characters, huh? :smalleek:

[Reinforcements]

So Final Fantasy Dissidia was featured at Square's acronym-tastic convention this weekend. I'm torn between not wanting to support yet another naked example of money-grabbing fanservice from Square and really wanting to see Kefka kick the **** out of Sephiroth.

[Mx.Silver]

So Final Fantasy Dissidia was featured at Square's acronym-tastic convention this weekend. I'm torn between not wanting to support yet another naked example of money-grabbing fanservice from Square and really wanting to see Kefka kick the **** out of Sephiroth.
Hell, I'd be willing to see anyone kick the **** out of Sephiroth. And Cloud. Especially Cloud.

[Inhuman Bot]

{Scrubbed}

Final. Fantasy. Sucks. I'am making conversation. I'am a helper ^.^ Really though, I personaly dislike it. What's so awesome about FF anyways? And for those unsure, that is in fact a question, I would like opinions.

[Sneak]

Final. Fantasy. Sucks. I'am making conversation. I'am a helper ^.^ Really though, I personaly dislike it. What's so awesome about FF anyways? And for those unsure, that is in fact a question, I would like opinions.

Well, nowadays the only things it really has going for it are that it is arguably the most "mainstream" jRPG and that it is also arguably the most popular jRPG series simply due to a pre-established legion of rabid fans (points to above) and a reputation from the older days of actually being the best. It hasn't really been that great or innovative in the past few years (FF XII, I'm lookin' at you), but it's still managed to stay on top due to its reputation of being "the best" from when it actually used to be great (FF 4, FF 6, FF 7, FF 9, and 8 and 10 weren't too bad either).

Of course, I'll still end up picking up the new FF in the hope that it WILL be great, but it's unlikely.

[Fan]

Final. Fantasy. Sucks. I'am making conversation. I'am a helper ^.^ Really though, I personaly dislike it. What's so awesome about FF anyways? And for those unsure, that is in fact a question, I would like opinions.

{Scrubbed}

[Prophaniti]

Meh. I've never cared for the FF series. Not one of them has held my interest past the intro. Honestly, same goes for Star Ocean (though my wife loves that one), and every other JRPG I've tried.

I do recall, back in the PS 1/N64 days, my brother telling me how awesome the graphics of this one FF game were, and how they beat the hell out of Mario 64, the game I was amusing myself with at the time. So I went to his friend's house with him to see it. Turns out, the characters had a LOWER polygon count than Mario, and these supposed 'AWESOME GRAFIX' were because the party ran around on a STILL-SHOT BACKGROUND, instead of an actual 3-D world. Yeah, I laughed at him and went back to stomping on goombas and sliding down ice chutes.

Yeah, I don't care much at all for JRPGs, and am seldom willing to even give one a chance these days, given how boring I've found every single one I've tried so far.


Heck, if that's your criteria, then the Might and Magic franchise is larger than both. I suppose that's probably because it consistently contains both mighty and magical characters, huh? :smalleek: Heh, yeah, good 'ole MM. Love the series as a whole, though you sometimes have to sift through the dross to find the gems. I-IV were actually pretty good, if the whole 2-D dos-based thing doesn't bother you. VI and VII were probably the best in the original series, while Heroes III and V were the best of that series. MM holds a strange place in my gaming heart, though, as the source of both the best Computer Action-RPG games I've ever played and the source of the ones I hate the most. Go ahead, ask me about Dark Messiah.:smallannoyed:

[Fan]

{Scrubbed}

[Prophaniti]

{Scrubbed}

No, I just want to yell "Your life's passion is a stupid waste of time!" and watch your face change to those interesting colors.:smallfrown::smallannoyed::smallmad::smallf urious: Edit: damn smilies limits... nowhere near as funny without the last one.

Seriously, though, maybe you need to take a nap or something, calm down a bit. FF isn't going anywhere (obviously) so what do you gain by yelling at those who don't like it, an apparent minority?

[Khanderas]

Anyway, now for something completly differernt.
Or something relative.

I saw the Final Fantasy movie. That is the one that was direcly based off the end of FF-7, the aftermath of the events of Cloud, Tifa and that gang.

Frankly it will never win any Oscars, but I found it worth my time, if not to say it was actually pretty nice to watch.
One should really have to know the background WELL to get half the stuff in there though, so basically fanboys (and girls) only. Suprisingly little Sephiroth too, something that is problebly good, he would otherwise disturb the story too much (true weather you like him or dislike him).

Personally I played Final Fantasy 6 first and had a hard time giving the nr1 spot for Best Final Fantasy over to anything. True I did play FF-7 slack-jawed, semi-drooling and without replying to direct questions unless physically slapped but it is still second place at best. Then follows IX (didnt get into the story as much, but more of a joy to play) X, X-2, XII, every other Final fantasy, including those I did not play and finally FF 8.
... Except doomtrain. Doomtrain was awesome and hilarious.

[Geno9999]

Me here, I'm thinking of getting FFIV on the DS, the only RPGs that I've played are Fire Emblem, All of the Mario RPGs and Megaman Battle Network (1) (does it count as an RPG?:smallconfused:) OH! and Pokemans!
Can anyone else recommend me other FF games? (I have a Wii, a DS, SNES, N64, Gamecube, and a Gameboy Color)

[Reinforcements]

Anyway, now for something completly differernt.
Or something relative.

I saw the Final Fantasy movie. That is the one that was direcly based off the end of FF-7, the aftermath of the events of Cloud, Tifa and that gang.

Frankly it will never win any Oscars, but I found it worth my time, if not to say it was actually pretty nice to watch.
One should really have to know the background WELL to get half the stuff in there though, so basically fanboys (and girls) only. Suprisingly little Sephiroth too, something that is problebly good, he would otherwise disturb the story too much (true weather you like him or dislike him).
I want to comment on this, because I think I actually have a point here and I'm not just incoherently yelling about how terrible Advent Children is. (I hope so, at least.) Regarding how AC is for fans only - well, it's certainly not for NON-fans, at all, since it doesn't make even the slightest attempt to explain itself, so if you haven't played FFVII you won't have any clue what's going on (not that there's really much of a story there anyway, but I digress).

But is it really for the fans? I say no, because in playing FFVII, you basically accomplished two things. You helped Cloud come to terms with his past and learn how to trust his friends and all that crap, and you saved the world from Sephiroth. Now here comes Advent Children, and what happens? Cloud is back to his old emo self and Sephiroth is resurrected. AC summarily undoes everything you did in FFVII - I should say WE did, since I did play it afterall. So thanks for that, Square!

[Reinforcements]

Me here, I'm thinking of getting FFIV on the DS, the only RPGs that I've played are Fire Emblem, All of the Mario RPGs and Megaman Battle Network (1) (does it count as an RPG?:smallconfused:) OH! and Pokemans!
Can anyone else recommend me other FF games? (I have a Wii, a DS, SNES, N64, Gamecube, and a Gameboy Color)
I recommend FFIV Advance over the DS, actually - they added a lot of new content and the ability to choose any character at the end of the game, which are features not present in the DS version. The DS version also ramps up the difficulty - this might be just me, but unless a game is really stupidly easy, I read "harder" as "less fun".

FFVI Advance is also an excellent choice. It's my favorite Final Fantasy, and the Advance version really improves upon it, fixing some of the goofy localization while staying true to Woolsey's original translation, and once again adding new content.

Final Fantasy Tactics A2, which just came out for the DS, is good too. It's much improved over the first Tactics Advance and doesn't have a whiny omnicidal brat for a main character, so extra bonus! The original FF Tactics (that is, the War of the Lions version) would be even better, but you don't own a PSP so you're out of luck there.

[Khanderas]

I want to comment on this, because I think I actually have a point here and I'm not just incoherently yelling about how terrible Advent Children is. (I hope so, at least.) Regarding how AC is for fans only - well, it's certainly not for NON-fans, at all, since it doesn't make even the slightest attempt to explain itself, so if you haven't played FFVII you won't have any clue what's going on (not that there's really much of a story there anyway, but I digress).

But is it really for the fans? I say no, because in playing FFVII, you basically accomplished two things. You helped Cloud come to terms with his past and learn how to trust his friends and all that crap, and you saved the world from Sephiroth. Now here comes Advent Children, and what happens? Cloud is back to his old emo self and Sephiroth is resurrected. AC summarily undoes everything you did in FFVII - I should say WE did, since I did play it afterall. So thanks for that, Square!
I'm not so sure Cloud becames a well-adjusted happy character after FF7. He does get alittle therapy but there is more to depressions then just having accomplished something. In the movie a disease of sorts are spreading out, due to the Jenova cells (unsure if the protagonists know this or think it is a Vengeance of Gaia / depeletion of the Lifesteam thing). In any case Cloud is out on his bike, depressed about the girl he couldn't save, the disease that is spreading (that may or may not be his fault for not stopping Sephiroth faster and so on), a general need for physical action and anti social tendencies that he, for all we know, always had.

As for Sephiroths ressurection, that is only for one actionscene, I don't quite think that counts as a retcon. Think of the hate they get if they skipped that guy :smallamused:

Still you raise a very valid point.

[Reinforcements]

As for Sephiroths ressurection, that is only for one actionscene, I don't quite think that counts as a retcon. Think of the hate they get if they skipped that guy :smallamused:

Still you raise a very valid point.
I'm not saying they retconned anything, I'm saying that according to Advent Children, the story goes, "They killed Sephiroth and saved the world... and then Cloud went back to being moody and avoiding everyone and eventually Sephiroth came back from the dead. Then he fought Cloud for a while before Cloud remembered he could do Omnislash and killed him again." Because if a SOLDIER gets Jenova's remains they turn into Sephiroth for some reason. Or something.

[Coplantor]

...FFVI Advance is also an excellent choice. It's my favorite Final Fantasy, and the Advance version really improves upon it, fixing some of the goofy localization while staying true to Woolsey's original translation, and once again adding new content.


I could'nt agree more with you, FF VI is by far the best of the series and my personal favourite, although i got stucked near the end...

KEFKA CAN KICK SEPHIROTH'S BEHIND WHENEVER HE WANTS!

[mikeejimbo]

I thought Star Ocean was called that because is was Final Fantasy IN SPACE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE)! And Space Is An Ocean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean), you know.

Curses. Linking to TV Tropes always wastes my time.

On topic, I have to admit that I never understood Final Fantasy. What continuity is there between the sequels? If none, why are they called the same game?

[Nerd-o-rama]

There's no official continuity between the games, although people have their theories (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees) (I'm evil, I know). Basically, they have the same name because they all share a variant on the same themes and mechanics, discounting things like Tactics which are only connected through cameos, and a few other games that were titled Final Fantasy solely so they would sell more copies (XI, the so-called "Final Fantasy Legend" games, etc.)

[Geno9999]

There's no official continuity between the games, although people have their theories (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees)...
GAAAAAAH! CUT DOWN THE TREES! BURN THE FOREST! LEAVE NO HERONS INSANE THEORIES LIVE!!!!
*Goes insane, goes back in time and/or other dimentions and causes the destruction of Serenes Forest* (Yay, FE ref!:smallbiggrin:)
Thanks for the recommendations everyone.:smallsmile:

[Tirian]

On topic, I have to admit that I never understood Final Fantasy. What continuity is there between the sequels? If none, why are they called the same game?

Well, they aren't called the same game, what with the Roman numeral and all. :smalltongue:

There is a lot of "overlap" between the games, although generally not in story or characters or gameplay interface. The items, spells, and larger monsters have a great deal of carryover. For instance, if I'm dropped in the middle of an FF game that I've never seen before and find myself facing a monster that looks like the creature from The Little Shop of Horrors, then I know that it is called a Malboro and I'd better get somebody ready to either cast Esuna or use a Remedy on my party. The games tend to have guardian spirits of some form or other with reused names (Ifrit, Shiva, Bahamut, etc.), and will tend to have chocobos, moogles, and an airship owned by a man named Cid. The culture of the world will involve a mix of neotech cities who have lost sight of the past and bronze age villages that have lost their control over the future. You will travel with at least one aloof princess, and almost always a second woman with a highly improbable figure or fashion sense. And the music repeats too.

As someone who has played more than half of the games in the series, it works for me. There is no continuity between worlds like you say, but that's almost a relief when compared to the franchises that strain under the load of trying to justify their continuity after twenty years (I'm looking at you here, Zelda). But there is enough continuity that playing a new game is like coming home to a place you've never been before.

[Reinforcements]

Well, I wouldn't say that Zelda is actually under any kind of strain. People like to THINK the games are all connected, and some are explicitly connected with one another, but it's all pretty vague - which is the point, they're NOT overly worried about having a cohesive continuity. If you had to have an explaination beyond "don't worry about it", I would say that's why it's the LEGEND of Zelda - the games as we know them are like the same story told differently several times, with maybe a bit of the more obvious continuities left intact (like Majora's Mask explicitly takes place shortly after Ocarina of Time, and Phantom Hourglass after Wind Waker).

But yeah, most Final Fantasy games obviously take place in separate worlds. I say most, because you do get things like X-2 and the whole Ivalice Alliance, which encompasses Tactics, Tactics Advance, Tactics A2, XII and Revenant Wings. Which is kind of interesting, actually. Final Fantasy II is part of the same series as Final Fantasy I - indeed, it's the next game in the series - but it isn't really a sequel in the usual sense. It's like if an author wrote several novels in a named series with similar writing styles, themes, ideas and in the same genre but each totally separate from one another. It's not something you see that often.

[Inhuman Bot]

For the topic of the FF VII ovie, yeah I agree it's not bad. And what does the MCCCLLLII part of the title mean?:smallconfused:

Oh yes, and I've always found it interesting that the FFT series, FF XII and Vargrant's stories are all in Ivalice, and apperently the same one..

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's meant to be a very large roman numeral, but as discussed at the beginning of the thread, it's really not.

MCCCCLII would be correct, though. Or MLDII, or MCDLII, which is if I recall the preferred "spelling".

[thevorpalbunny]

It may also reference The Decline of Video Gaming.

Also, if you like FF games you might also like Chrono Trigger.

[Mando Knight]

It's like if an author wrote several novels in a named series with similar writing styles, themes, ideas and in the same genre but each totally separate from one another. It's not something you see that often.

Fire Emblem's the same way. The only connections FE 9-10 have to FE 1-8 are mechanics and art style. The characters, locations, and plots are all different.

Also, the Legend of Zelda supposedly has a super-secret timeline in a Nintendo vault that makes sense of the entire thing.

Of course, the UFO over Roswell was supposedly just a weather balloon, so conspiracy theorists and skeptics can argue about their existences all day.

[Trazoi]

Also, the Legend of Zelda supposedly has a super-secret timeline in a Nintendo vault that makes sense of the entire thing.
Apart from the obvious Ocarina of Time/Majora Mask and Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass link (they've both got the same Link protagonists in each pair), I thought it was very strongly hinted that Wind Waker was far in the future from Ocarina of Time and had the same Ganondorf in both of them. I don't know how all the others interact with each other, and it doesn't really explain how the geography of Hyrule keeps changing between games.

As for Final Fantasy, I never really got into the series. The only Final Fantasy I've played a lot of is Final Fantasy VI, but I didn't really see the appeal of it. The battles just got tiresome after a while, and there were so many characters I didn't really get to know any of them that well. And Kefka was obviously just nuts. Anyone who put him in any position of authority deserved anything they got.

The music however was top notch. And I thought the tile art was pretty darn spiffy for a SNES game. Altogether it just didn't have the magic that Chrono Trigger had.

[Jothki]

I dislike FFXII for a number of reasons, but one of the largest has to be Basch. They had the design for the best character in any game ever sitting there staring them right in the face, but instead decided to go with something far more lame.

[Agrippa]

Hell, I'd be willing to see anyone kick the **** out of Sephiroth. And Cloud. Especially Cloud.

How about a Baron Wulfenbach (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Baron_Klaus_Wulfenbach), Batman, Hellboy, Sam Vimes, Immortal Emperor of Mankind and Iroh beat the living hell out of Sephyboy fest? Or just have them all beat up on Hojo. As for Cloud, let Granny Weatherwax, Gil (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh_Wulfenbach), Toph and Harry Dresden slap him around for a while. I'm game for all three.

[Geno9999]

How about a Baron Wulfenbach (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Baron_Klaus_Wulfenbach), Batman, Hellboy, Sam Vimes, Immortal Emperor of Mankind and Iroh beat the living hell out of Sephyboy fest? Or just have them all beat up on Hojo. As for Cloud, let Granny Weatherwax, Gil (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh_Wulfenbach), Toph and Harry Dresden slap him around for a while. I'm game for all three. How 'bout Chuck Norris OR Gandalf the Gray and Gandalf the White
And Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight,
And Benito Mussolini, and the Blue Meanie
And Cowboy Curtis and Jambi the Genie
Robocop, The Terminator, Captain Kirk, Darth Vader,
Lo-Pan, Superman, every single Power Ranger,
Bill S. Preston and Theodore Logan,
Spock, The Rock, Doc Ock and Hulk Hogan,
All came out of nowhere lightning-fast,
And they kicked Chuck Norris in his cowboy ass
It was the bloodiest battle that the world ever saw
With civilians looking on in total awe. (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/showdown) *Gasp of Air* THIS IS THE *gets beat up by, Who else? Mr. Rogers*

[Agrippa]

Well, Sephyboy would diffinately deserve that kind of brutal beat down. Cloud should be slapped around for his general nauseating depression and stupidity.

[Griever]

Well, it appears that Banjo and I just about agree on everything Final Fantasy (AC III looks utterly amazing btw, Banjo :smallbiggrin: ).

Just to reinforce my thoughts, however:

I've only played VII, VIII, IX and X, so my thoughts on any of the VII sequels/pre-sequels, X-2, XII or XIII are completely useless and will not be included.

VII - I understand that it was a rather ground-shattering leap for games at that point in time, and good for it. I maintain that if you peel that away... the storyline is just about incorrigible, I didn't finally get it all until I watched AC's little explanation movie.

FF VII: AC: Sure, there wasn't too much storyline, but I still think it was awesome. Don't expect The Notebook or The Green Mile, expect one heck of an action show.

VIII - Gets a lot of bad rap, but I think it just suffered from the fact that it didn't get as much forgiveness as VII from the graphics. Sure, the final bosses weren't quite understandable and I still don't get time compression, but the storyline up until that point was enjoyable enough for me.

IX - My first actual FF to play, and, well, I loved it. The over-the-top attempting-to-be-cool Zidane, the mass-destruction-wielding innocent Vivi, and the host of other characters who all develop at least some character. Only thing I (and most people) think it could have done without was Necron, but that's a small deal, imo.

X - The most recent FF I played and there is only one word that ever need be said about this game in a popularity contest: Auron. He pretty much defined badass and does what he wants to fulfill his promise. Many other good things could be said... but that would be so outshadowed by Auron... no point in wasting your time reading it.

And those are my 86 cents, figured it couldn't hurt to express them.

Oh, and FF fanboy, I have no idea what you said earlier, but just take some advice from me: Settle Down. Nothing positive will ever be attained for you by getting emotional, people are entitled to their opinions, respect that, and they will respect yours.

[Haruki-kun]

FF VII: AC: Sure, there wasn't too much storyline, but I still think it was awesome. Don't expect The Notebook or The Green Mile, expect one heck of an action show.

I have to say... I LOVED the Computer Graphics in this movie. They're just AMAZING.