Gleemax Goes the Way of the Dinosaurs

[Matthew]

So, I just read this over on the Kenzer & Company forums (no, I don't often visit the Gleemax forums, are you really surprised? :smallbiggrin:). Anyway:



Wizards of the Coast has made the decision to pull down its Gleemax social networking site in order to focus on other aspects of our digital initiatives, especially Magic Online and Dungeons & Dragons Insider. We continue to believe that fostering online community is an important part of taking care of our customers, but until we have our games up and running at a quality level we can be proud of, it will be the games themselves that receive the lion’s share of our attention and resources.

Our plan is to shut down Gleemax completely sometime in September. (I can’t give a more exact date because the timing depends on what’s going on with other projects.) To those of you who have posted to Gleemax, I thank you for your contributions over the past year. It is community members like you that made this project worth trying, and it is your efforts and words that gave it heart. You should save your blogs by copying that text somewhere else. Meanwhile, I encourage you to head over to the Wizards forums. The Wizards online community continues to thrive, and there should be lots of fun stuff to talk about over the coming months, including our digital offerings.

Primary Source (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=16452125#post16452125)
Secondary Source (http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?p=683895#post683895)

[RTGoodman]

Wow - that's pretty exciting. I haven't been on any forums over there since this Gleemax nonsense started. Maybe it's just the "change for the sake of change" feeling I got when it was first announced...


Also, from Randy Buehler's blog, he mentions that Beta testing for the Character Builder and Online Tabletop and whatnot are starting soon - I would LOVE to be a part of that.

[Frosty]

WTF!?! all those CO guides...will be gone?!

[Lochar]

Start downloading now Frosty.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

They will keep the forums, but perhaps they will be moved back to Wizard's site.

[shadow_archmagi]

WTF!?! all those CO guides...will be gone?!

Yeah, is this "We're going to be using a different forum thingy"

or

"From now on, there will not BE a D&D forum."??

They'd be fools to shut it down. Huge quantities of broken stuff gets found that way.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Again, not the forums, just all the other "social networking stuff" that you probably have not used anyway. :smallwink:

[ericgrau]

Wait, so only the blogs are down, but the forums remain? Is that correct? I hope so. EDIT: Answered by Silvanos. I really need to read more and write less.

I say good-riddance. It was a smart move to get rid of that garbage known as Gleemax. And if they don't have time to provide us with something else, they should just shut it down temporarily - like they are doing - until they're ready later on. Otherwise they'll have to keep spending all their time fixing it.

[ArmorArmadillo]

WTF!?! all those CO guides...will be gone?!

Hooray! Now people will have to think for themselves again!

[tarbrush]

There was social networking stuff?

Like what?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

There was social networking stuff?

Like what?

Hehe, like I expected. :smallbiggrin:

Blogs, reviews and chat. Perhaps more?

[RTGoodman]

"We're going to be using a different forum thingy"

This, I assume.


Meanwhile, I encourage you to head over to the Wizards forums. The Wizards online community continues to thrive, and there should be lots of fun stuff to talk about over the coming months, including our digital offerings.

EDIT:

There was social networking stuff?

Like what?

What Silvanos say, plus I think there were PbP forums or whatever to play online and places to get in touch with other local gamers.

[Dairun Cates]

Wait... Gleemax is going to go join the Pirates?

Anyway, don't know much about it, but I suppose it is sad to see it go.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Anyway, don't know much about it, but I suppose it is sad to see it go.

Not necessarily.

I have not been active on the WotC forums for quite a while, but from what I hear the quality only declined after the switch, so unless you really enjoyed the blogs, reviews or chat it might actually be an improvement if things return to the days of yore. (No Matthew, I did not mean it would be an exclusive AD&D site :smalltongue:)

More resources might also be directed at the forums now, which is also a boon if that is one's primary interest.

In addition, the Gleemax colour scheme is not that impressive, which I believe Zherog already told them when Gleemax was first introduced.

[Matthew]

(No Matthew, I did not mean it would be an exclusive AD&D site :smalltongue:)

Hey, "up to and including AD&D" would be fine with me. :smallwink:



In addition, the Gleemax colour scheme is not that impressive, which I believe Zherog already told them when Gleemax was first introduced.

Ha, ha.

[ericgrau]

Ding dong the witch is dead
Which old witch?
The wicked witch.
Ding dong...


Wait... Gleemax is going to go join the Pirates?

Anyway, don't know much about it, but I suppose it is sad to see it go.

Huh? What?

That thing was as buggy as can be. It'll be good when Wizards has working forums again. EDIT: In fairness, maybe it was implementation or I dunno what. All I know is that the forums were working better before they added on Gleemax. At the very least it'll be good that they're delaying until they can get Gleemax or w/e properly working w/o detracting from their more important focuses.

... the wicked witch is dead.
Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. She's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho...

[Kurald Galain]

Well, that was predictable. Gleemax is probably the single biggest 3rd Edition resource in the world, and of course WOTC doesn't want anything to do with 3E any more. Don't tell me anyone is honestly surprised at WOTC's wish to delete all of that.

The phrase "shut down Gleemax completely" seems to include their forums as well. Although of course they'll move the 4E / MTG forums some place else.

[Covered In Bees]

Well, that was predictable. Gleemax is probably the single biggest 3rd Edition resource in the world, and of course WOTC doesn't want anything to do with 3E any more. Don't tell me anyone is honestly surprised at WOTC's wish to delete all of that.
Those of us who aren't conspiracy theorists...

OMG! They're trying to erase 3E!!1


The phrase "shut down Gleemax completely" seems to include their forums as well. Although of course they'll move the 4E / MTG forums some place else.
The forums existed before Gleemax, they'll exist just fine without it.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Well, that was predictable. Gleemax is probably the single biggest 3rd Edition resource in the world, and of course WOTC doesn't want anything to do with 3E any more. Don't tell me anyone is honestly surprised at WOTC's wish to delete all of that.This seems to be an unusual sentiment. I wasn't aware that anyone actually bothered to use Gleemax given how buggy it was. I'd have liked to see Gleemax come together into a useful community, but ultimately it was a very weak system. This is the first time I've seen bitterness concerning its demise. (At least beyond "WotC never gets any of their software right," etc.)

What exactly are you going to miss?

[Kurald Galain]

This seems to be an unusual sentiment. I wasn't aware that anyone actually bothered to use Gleemax given how buggy it was.

Wait, are we talking about the same thing here? The WOTC forums are http://forums.gleemax.com - that's the important part of Gleemax.

[kamikasei]

Kurald, I think most are assuming that the forums will be migrated back to their own setup, and what's being shut down is the stuff that made Gleemax something other than just another forum - you know, the stuff seemingly no one used or cared about. Note:


To those of you who have posted to Gleemax... You should save your blogs by copying that text somewhere else. Meanwhile, I encourage you to head over to the Wizards forums.

[bosssmiley]

WTF!?! all those CO guides...will be gone?!

Some of the http://brilliantgameologists.com/ folks are trying to save a lot of the CO guides. IIRC the core of that crowd left the WOTC forums in a storm of drama when the Char Op forum was thrown into the memory hole a couple of months back.

You know, between the grognards of old skool/retro-game movement, the cult of 3.P (paizo.com), the various magpies and homebrewers (DiceFreaks, The Tome crowd, etc.), and the 3.X Char Op boards-in-exile the 4E refusenik element continues to grow.

I'm not sure now much nerdrage 3.0 generated at launch, but can anyone else see a possible '4E = the Vista of D&D' analogy? I'm not trolling, I just wonder if it's going to be similar story of people adamantly refusing to buy into the idea of an unwelcome 'upgrade'. :smallamused:

[Kurald Galain]

IIRC the core of that crowd left the WOTC forums in a storm of drama when the Char Op forum was thrown into the memory hole a couple of months back.

Wait, what happened there?

And "memory hole"? Last time I checked the Charop board was still there?


@kamikasei - actually I only use Gleemax for the forum, and I was indeed mostly unaware of these other stuff that, as you say, nobody used.

[kamikasei]

@kamikasei - actually I only use Gleemax for the forum, and I was indeed mostly unaware of these other stuff that, as you say, nobody used.

Exactly. :P

[Person_Man]

Wow.

Speaking as someone who has managed major IT contracts, I can tell you that this sort of stuff isn't cheap. Although its simple to throw together a single blog or low traffic forum using borrowed code, its quite expensive and labor intensive to put up a major site. I'm guessing that the tech side of the endeavour cost them something in the low millions. Plus they paid dozens of game developers for hundreds of hours of blogging and article content which is now essentially pissed down the toilet. (I can't decide if it was really expensive, because of the the sheer volume, or really cheap, because gamers are payed in the magic beans range of salaries).

Obviously, someone (in marketing?) promised someone else (in management) unrealistic traffic numbers. Or they made the even bigger mistake - promising that big traffic numbers would translate into big sales (and/or D&D Insider subscriptions - which for bizarre reason wasn't completed well before the 4E rollout).

My guess is that 4E is selling better then any other RPG in history, but not as good as Hasbro. "We make 10 times as much money with 1/10th the marketing selling Magic or Monopoly! You people are obviously screwing up!" So now they're pulling the marketing budget. I assume several people have lost their jobs over this.

[Gorbash]

Well, if (3.5) Char Op forum continues to exist, I couldn't care less. But, wizards just continue to disappoint me with stuff like this...

[Merlin the Tuna]

My guess is that 4E is selling better then any other RPG in history, but not as good as Hasbro. "We make 10 times as much money with 1/10th the marketing selling Magic or Monopoly! You people are obviously screwing up!" So now they're pulling the marketing budget. I assume several people have lost their jobs over this.Hasbro has a very hands-off reputation with this sort of thing. To illustrate this, check out the transcript of their most recent shareholder meeting (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=237346). Wizards barely gets mentioned, and D&D doesn't at all.

The topic has a few other transcripts, but the general gist of it is that WotC is barely a blip on their radar, and D&D is even less visible.

[Matthew]

Hasbro has a very hands-off reputation with this sort of thing. To illustrate this, check out the transcript of their most recent shareholder meeting (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=237346). Wizards barely gets mentioned, and D&D doesn't at all.

The topic has a few other transcripts, but the general gist of it is that WotC is barely a blip on their radar, and D&D is even less visible.

That is true, but there is a dyed in the wool Hasbro man in charge now at Wizards of the Coast, and has been ever since just after Christmas. Whether he is a hands on sort of guy is another question.

[Aquillion]

Well, that was predictable. Gleemax is probably the single biggest 3rd Edition resource in the world, and of course WOTC doesn't want anything to do with 3E any more. Don't tell me anyone is honestly surprised at WOTC's wish to delete all of that.And then they'll acquire the gitp gaming forums, to silence us!

(And then probably OOTS itself, and force Rich to not merely update all future comics to 4e regardless of what he said, but all past comics as well. Also, instead of jokes reading the comic will now do 3d6 + int mod damage of the appropriate type, plus a status effect that lasts for one round.)

[namo]

You know, between the grognards of old skool/retro-game movement, the cult of 3.P (paizo.com), the various magpies and homebrewers (DiceFreaks, The Tome crowd, etc.), and the 3.X Char Op boards-in-exile the 4E refusenik element continues to grow.
This is a funny way to present things, but it's not quite accurate: prominent members of DF are switching, some people at BG will play both editions, etc...



Wait, what happened there?
Let's just go with: long story.


And "memory hole"? Last time I checked the Charop board was still there?
In short, there were at some point plans to merge it with Character Development. Thankfully they were dropped.

[AKA_Bait]

Speaking as someone who has managed major IT contracts, I can tell you that this sort of stuff isn't cheap. Although its simple to throw together a single blog or low traffic forum using borrowed code, its quite expensive and labor intensive to put up a major site. I'm guessing that the tech side of the endeavour cost them something in the low millions. Plus they paid dozens of game developers for hundreds of hours of blogging and article content which is now essentially pissed down the toilet. (I can't decide if it was really expensive, because of the the sheer volume, or really cheap, because gamer are payed in the magic beans range of salaries).


Since you seem to know more about this (I have no clue what IT contract figures look like), I'm curious about something. Since the Gleemax site is already up and running, do you think it makes financial sense for them to take it down? That's assuming they decided to toss out any new gleemax content (paying for staff blogs etc.) and just looking at the cost for keeping the site up and running.

[Kurald Galain]

Let's just go with: long story.

So spill! We've got all the time in the world!

Or link to an angry post of one of those regulars that left, or whatever. Come on, drama's no fun if you keep it to yourself!

[mikeejimbo]

I'm glad it's not the forums going. If the forums died all those people would find new places to post. And some of them might come HERE.

[Person_Man]

Since you seem to know more about this (I have no clue what IT contract figures look like), I'm curious about something. Since the Gleemax site is already up and running, do you think it makes financial sense for them to take it down? That's assuming they decided to toss out any new gleemax content (paying for staff blogs etc.) and just looking at the cost for keeping the site up and running.

Assuming that its not making them money, then yes.

Let's assume that they stop paying content developers for new content, and re-task them onto other things. And let's further assume that any time someone emails customer service about a problem with Gleemax, they get a stock reply so that they're not wasting any staff hours on that either.

Even then, they still would have to dedicate X number of servers to the task. The servers take energy to run, they need to be kept in a climate controlled room, they need to be updated with the latest software to prevent hacking, there might be licensing fees associated with various software packages that they're running, parts need to be replaced from time to time, someone needs to monitor it to make sure that its up and working, bandwidth has to be paid for, etc. Those costs would probably be pretty minimal (in the low six figures, maybe cheaper). But they're still costs that are being thrown down the toilet.

More importantly, Gleemax doesn't sell books, cards, subscriptions, miniatures, or anything else. It's basically just a masturbatory site for high-information core fans who have already made their decisions about whether or not to buy 4E books, Magic cards, D&D insider, etc. It also ascetically ugly and confusing to navigate - so its possible that someone doing a Google search to learn more about 4E or Magic might stuble across it and be turned off.

WotC fell into the classic trap of many 90's dot.com companies. If your website doesn't include a business model that includes sales or advertising, then its highly unlikely that it will make you any money.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I had made a long post detailing the relevant information for sunk costs and opportunity cost, but decided that essence of that had already been caught by the following.


... Gleemax... It's basically just a masturbatory site for high-information core fans...

[Merlin the Tuna]

Apparently there were revenue plans for Gleemax, but the clunkiness of the service kept them from ever getting off the ground.

Strategy Games: Along with elite WotC titles like Magic: The Gathering®, Dungeons & Dragons® and Uncivilized: The Goblin Game™, Gleemax.com will provide a variety of Indie games, all stamped with the WotC seal of approval for great game-play, giving them a prominent distribution channel to reach strategy game players. Gleemax will also feature on-line versions of popular strategy board games. Players will be treated to various trial and full versions of games free of charge, with enhanced and full versions available for a one-time or subscription fee

...
...
...

Editorial Content: Gleemax.com will provide focused content for strategy hobby gamers with unique up-to-date information on popular strategy games, tournaments and category announcements. Along with articles and interviews, the portal will feature custom content from various industry leaders in the form of blogs and message board postings, and tools for user-generated content. Additional premium content will be available to subscribers for a nominal fee.More and more this looks like a pretty sound plan executed extremely clumsily.

[bosssmiley]

Behind the scenes at Gleemax:

http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF055-Dinosaur_Meteors.jpg