Quick Question

[shadow_archmagi]

What is the LA on an awakened animal? Is it negative, since you get absolutely no racial features? (Even humans get a feat and extra skillpoints) Or are there racial features?

I'm considering playing an Awakened Squirrel Rogue. Or is there a better race/class combination for Awakened stuff? Its supposed to be first level.

[Wabbajack]

You gain no LA, but you gain 2HD and all HD the animal had before.

[shadow_archmagi]

You gain no LA, but you gain 2HD and all HD the animal had before.

So, wait, what if I want to play an Awakened Tyrannosaurus?

[Chronos]

Then the game had better be starting at level 20, and even then, you won't have a class yet.

[shadow_archmagi]

Then the game had better be starting at level 20, and even then, you won't have a class yet.

But he just said there would be no LA!

[arguskos]

Yeah, but you'll have all those HD, which serve as part of ECL (Effective Character Level) to determine character level. You'll have so many HD, that the game will think of you as a 20th level character or thereabouts.

-argus

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, but you'll have all those HD, which serve as part of ECL (Effective Character Level) to determine character level. You'll have so many HD, that the game will think of you as a 20th level character or thereabouts.

-argus

Wait, HD are levels!? What!? Wha!? Huh!? Wha? But then... thats madness!

[Waspinator]

Wouldn't it just be that you'd start with the effective level (CR) of the creature and add on from there?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Racial Hit Dice (or RHD) are applied to any character when the base creature becomming a PC has more HD than 1.

A good, and common, example of this is the XPH Thri-Kreen. Not only does it have an LA, but it also has a number of RHD you have to take before you can start your first PC class.

RHD are generally not very good, although they can advance your BAB, Saves, and starting hit points. Generally, though, it sucks.

For example, say you were wanting to play an awakened Wolf. Wolves have 2 RHD, because they have 2d6+4 hit points starting out. The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) will tell you what you get out of these RHD. For this wolf, you get 2 RHD of Animal. This nets you a +1 BAB, 2d8 HD (1st one maxed), +3 Fort and Ref save (+0 Will), and some skills.

[arguskos]

Wait, HD are levels!? What!? Wha!? Huh!? Wha? But then... thats madness!
Not really. What's a class level? A HD with some abilites, stats, and special powers. Monsters follow similar logic, just their HD suck more than PC classes.

-argus

[RTGoodman]

Wouldn't it just be that you'd start with the effective level (CR) of the creature and add on from there?

CR is not a creature's "effective level" - it's the creature's Challenge Rating, meaning it will be challenging for 4 characters of that level.

A creature's Effective Character Level (ECL) is equal to its Racial Hit Dice plus its Level Adjustment plus any Class Levels it has. An Awakened Wolf with one level of Druid, for instance, has two starting RHD, 2 HD from being awakened, and one level of Druid, making it an ECL 5 character.

Of course, awakened animals have other problems besides RHD, LA, and such - it's gonna be hard to swing a sword if you don't have opposable thumbs.

Also, arguskos is pretty much right - racial HD are basically just like sucky mini-classes and follow most of the same rules as normal classes.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So the only really viable Awakened Animal is something like a Bat or a Badger, which comes with only a single racial HD. The real question is, can you replace the sucky feats with ones that matter? Though a Badger Druid heading into Beastmaster makes me :smallbiggrin:.

[Severedevil]

CR is Challenge Rating, not Effective Character Level. CR is a measure of a standard party's difficulty in defeating the monster manual entry. It is not a reliable measure of the creature's power as a player character. Even if it were, if you vary from the monster manual's entry (by changing the feats, using the elite array, making the creature sapient, giving it items, etc.) then CR is no longer accurate.

Regarding awakened animals, my best thought recommendation is:


Generate stats (point buy, 4d6b3, etc.) and apply the animal's modifiers to Str, Dex, Con, and Wis as normal. Increase the Charisma modifier by 2, and replace the Intelligence modifier with +0.

Replace the animal's hit dice with Magical Beast, and add two. Take these as normal, before taking your first levels. (You choose any feats given by these hit dice, with the exception of racial bonus feats.) Gain all remaining properties of the base animal.

LA: +0

You still can't make a decent spellcaster. I'd modify the above to allow the animal to give up the properties of Magical Beast (with the exception of sapience and 2+Int skill points per level) and not have to take two extra hit dice. You'd lose a few bonuses, including BAB equal to level, making it a bad choice for fighting classes but a good one for casters and maybe rogues.

So, you could make an awakened wolf ~ as described by Awaken (Medium Magical Beast, four levels of Magical Beast + class levels, +2 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha) or with an alternate path. (Medium Magical Beast, two levels of animal + class levels, +2 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha.)

[Chronos]

So the only really viable Awakened Animal is something like a Bat or a Badger, which comes with only a single racial HD.No matter what the base animal has, Awaken always adds two more, so if the base animal only has one, then the awakened version has three. I'm not sure what you're supposed to do about fractional HD animals, though... Which way do you round?

Also remember that awakened animals have the augmented animal subtype, which means they don't even get full BAB from those magical beast HD.


RHD are generally not very good, although they can advance your BAB, Saves, and starting hit points. Generally, though, it sucks.Dragon and outsider RHD are actually decent, with all saves good, high skill points, and full BAB. Fey RHD are OK for a skillmonkey, since they still give 6 points per level, and Magical Beast (unaugmented) or Monstrous Humanoid are OK for a warrior type, since they give full BAB. Still, you'd better get some good abilities from your species to make them worthwhile.

[Vexxation]

Which way do you round?

Isn't the rule "Always round up"?

[shadow_archmagi]

Isn't the rule "Always round up"?

Down, actually.

[Thurbane]

IMHO (not RAW) some animals do deserve LA, from substantial ability bonuses and things like scent, flight, poison, climbing etc.

[Severedevil]

Do any animals get enough strong abilities to overcome their racial hit dice + 2?

[tyckspoon]

Do any animals get enough strong abilities to overcome their racial hit dice + 2?

The only thing that comes to mind for me is Sandstorm's Dire Tortoise, because of its crazy Super Foresight ability (it's never flatfooted, always acts in the surprise round, and if there isn't a surprise round, one is created for it to act in.) Plus a few other relatively normal animal abilities, but that's the big one.. and even for that, a character would be sacrificing 16 class levels [14 base HD+2 awakening]. It's very hard to find something useful to do with only 4 actual class levels.

So no, at least for me there aren't any animals that deserve having LA on top of a stack of racial HD that ranges from penalizing to overwhelming.

[Vortling]

What about the awakened animal table from savage species, or is that not even worth considering?

[RTGoodman]

What about the awakened animal table from savage species, or is that not even worth considering?

It's not a table of "awakened animals" - it's a for anthropomorphic animals, which are slightly different.

You can find that particular table online (it was on the WotC site at some point), but most of them really AREN'T worth it. I think the Anthropomorphic Bat is considered good and the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale brokenly so, but overall the anthro creatures have LAs ECLs that seem way too high.

EDIT: Just remembered that the Anthropomorphic Animals have both RHD and LAs.