Here's me being passive-aggressive...

[Burley]

Okay, so, in my campaign, I've been getting a lot of "This is fun, but the encounters are too easy." The PCs all have high stats, and Optimized classes, and lots of... just stuff. So, I've been trying to make things more interesting, and fun. Keep in mind that this is my first campaign as DM, so, I'm still forgetting rules and gauging how much is too much.

Now, session before last, I put them up against a Half-Golem (slightly homebrewed, because I lost my paperwork) that was at least 1-2 CR higher than they should have been able to handle. They jacked that guy up, and most of the party evaded damage all together. So, I decided to crank it up a bit more.
On Friday's session, the PCs are on a boat, when they are attacked by Sahuagin(sp?) pirates, led by a Hag. Now, the basic deal was: If any of the first wave of 6 sahuagin are killed, their shark mounts would take the bodies back to the leader ASAP, and within the span of 1d4 rounds, they'd start boarding the other side, preparing for a sneak attack. Well, the PCs finish up the first wave right after the second wave has been on the ship for one round, under cover of Silence.
So, the group is pissy about not being able to hear or spot them, even though their attention has been 100% focused on the other side of the boat, and I carefully set the Silence so that it would leave the PCs just outside of it. The PCs were not surprised or anything. We kept the same initiative and the newcomers got no extra advantage. The PCs still decimated them.
Of course, I did forget about the Silence effect in the area, so, the one hit that killed the had by the Duskblade shouldn't have done as much damage, but the Hag would have died without the Shocking Grasp addition to the Courtblade. So, I said "Oh, I forgot about the Silence, but she would have died, anyways." And the battle ended soon after.

Now, I don't think I did anything explicitly wrong. Did I? I want to know, because, instead of coming and telling me how they felt about the session, my players are being sorta...passive-aggressive about it. So, I'm being P-A, right back.

So, Playgrounders, am I really a bad enough DM that I belong in the "Things DMs do that make us hate them" thread?

[Meat Shield]

Nah. Lots of times my players blow right through anything I throw at them. You've just gotta find the right mix of ways to challenge them. You've already started this by using the 'combined arms' method - flight, melee, stealth, ranged, magic attacks all at once.

Since it looks like you are doing a nautical thing, lets try this: spread the PCs out with multiple threat directions. Some critters attack the boat itself, either at the waterline or BELOW it. Others fly in and drop of their passengers into the rigging and continue their own dive attacks. A couple brutes climb up the sides to handle the tanks. And silence on the mages is always good. Throw a couple fireballs and the boat catches on fire as well.

Multiple threat lines - a PCs worst nightmare. (That and girls talking to them. :smallbiggrin:)

[Jade_Tarem]

No, you're not. Players do that, sometimes - It's what I like to call the "Whineslaying effect." They steamroll through encounters while whining about how hard they are. It will eventually pass on its own, but you can speed up the process by crafting encounters based on Rule of Cool or by tailoring them to the PCs, in such a way that specific PC strengths come to light during the fight. You're on the right track, having enemies with tactics, but you can go one further.

[JupiterPaladin]

I would have let the fishy guys sneak attack if they were completely unnoticed. If your players complain about that when their character had no way to detect the enemy, what will they do when they're in full view and flanked? Don't be afraid to max the NPC's like the players are. My group learned that magic != invincibility when they faced a tribe of Lion Totem Barbarian Frenzied Berserker uberchargers and Forsakers. They got off the high horse and still had fun with it. They learned that you don't just rush in screaming everywhere. :smallwink:

[valadil]

Sounds like a fun encounter. Players like to whine about anything they haven't seen before. It's especially bad for power gamers who are optimized for certain scenarios and know how to deal with existing problems. They just can't handle something new so they whine and moan.

[Starsinger]

No, you aren't a bad DM. But next time may I suggest putting the PCs in the range of silence?

[Adumbration]

I believe I saw a player post about a similar situation... It was nautical, and it had silence. It could be a different scene, but should I go find it?

[Yvanehtnioj]

I think you are fine. It seems to me that your players are very attached to their characters but that they also have assumed that they are the only ones with the right to do "blank."

Be sure to remind your players that what they can do, you can do too. That is what I do. (It tends to cut down on some of the cheesy things a player may think of doing.) Still, if it will help, then remind them that their characters are not invincible, and that the point of playing is to have fun.

In short: they can't have things go their way all the time. :smallamused:



One of the posters, Meat_shield, gave several goood ideas. I like nautical adventures too. Don't forget to check out the dnd book, "Stormwrack," for ideas on more aquatic encounters / dangers.

Diseased crewmembers (scurvy), storms (hurricanes), pirates, mutinies, lightning striking the mast and setting rigging afire, ruined rations (hope someone can fish!), etc. The possibilities just go on and on.

[PnP Fan]

You're doing fine. That was a good encounter, and seems to be appropriately challenging. Players whine sometimes. That's just how it is. Moreso if they've never been a GM before. If they are really being P-A about things, and I"m not sure they are from what you're describing, then you need to nip that in the bud. P-A tactics can be really bad. They hardly ever actually solve the problem at hand, and usually just cause more hard feelings than anything. It's not an effective problem solving or communication method. (My last girlfriend was very P-A, and an only child, so it was her way or the highway of emotional blackmail. Notice I said ex-girlfriend. ;-)

In short, don't get P-A back at them, just confront the whining directly and ask questions about what their expectations are, and be ready to explain what your expectations are. You might have an argument (probably not), but at least everyone will have effectively communicated what they want out of the game, and you can go about meeting those needs.

[Talic]

Now, they'd have a reason to whine if the sahaguin started a fallback fight on the one side, when the PC's started beating em up, to set up a different sort of diversion...

A sahaguin under the silence effect sneaking into their hold, with a gray ooze in a glass jar. Smash that guy in the hold, and have the sahaguin stay down there, all hidey like. Ooze eats through boat, boat starts taking on water. Ooze either floats or drowns, and the sahaguin swims out, assuming he's not found and killed.

That's how I'd raid shipping, if I were a sahaguin colony, with access to a cave network that had oozes in it. Breed the suckers, use them as ship bombs.

Bonus points if the sahaguin infiltrating has 4 levels of sorceror, for invisibility, to sneak out and to the water again.

[Meat Shield]

Now, they'd have a reason to whine if the sahaguin started a fallback fight on the one side, when the PC's started beating em up, to set up a different sort of diversion...

A sahaguin under the silence effect sneaking into their hold, with a gray ooze in a glass jar. Smash that guy in the hold, and have the sahaguin stay down there, all hidey like. Ooze eats through boat, boat starts taking on water. Ooze either floats or drowns, and the sahaguin swims out, assuming he's not found and killed.

That's how I'd raid shipping, if I were a sahaguin colony, with access to a cave network that had oozes in it. Breed the suckers, use them as ship bombs.

Bonus points if the sahaguin infiltrating has 4 levels of sorceror, for invisibility, to sneak out and to the water again.
Aren't we just the sneaky bugger.....

I am the Meat Shield, and I approved this message.

[spamoo]

You did nothing wrong. If your players are anything like my friends and myself, they deserve something even tougher. Once when two members of our group decided not to show up, the two of us went up against a CR 14 or so Slaad at lvl 9. The DM wasn't particularily pissed at us. He was just trying to find the correct challenge level. It turns out not even that was high enough...

[Sucrose]

The only mistake that you made, from your side of the story, was not at least rolling Spot checks for them. Since there's no facing in D&D, it would've been better to give them at least a chance of seeing the creatures (although you could've given them penalties, if you really felt it necessary).

[kjones]

What is the party level, and what CRs are they going up against? Keep in mind that a party should be able to face 5 encounters of CR equal to the party level per day - if you want a really challenging battle, go for CR + 4.

[Another_Poet]

The only mistake that you made, from your side of the story, was not at least rolling Spot checks for them. Since there's no facing in D&D, it would've been better to give them at least a chance of seeing the creatures (although you could've given them penalties, if you really felt it necessary).


That, and when your players are being passive agressive, don't be passive agressive right back. Ask them questiosn about what they like/dislike about the game and ask in a way that makes it clear you really will accept an honest answer, even if it's negative.

All we can do here is guess.

[AstralFire]

No, you're not. Players do that, sometimes - It's what I like to call the "Whineslaying effect." They steamroll through encounters while whining about how hard they are. It will eventually pass on its own, but you can speed up the process by crafting encounters based on Rule of Cool or by tailoring them to the PCs, in such a way that specific PC strengths come to light during the fight. You're on the right track, having enemies with tactics, but you can go one further.

My group is about half new people, so I took it easy on them for a lot of sessions, letting them learn the rules. I slowly amped it up, and then they got to a, we'll call him a miniboss. Many clues (well, more of GIANT WARNING SIGNS) were placed on the difficulty of this fight in and out of game/character, and we ended the session before the fight rolling Init.

I -still- was worried about how they'd handle him, so I built him as a defense monster with control abilities, not a lot of offense. He had a lot of AC, great saves with abilities like Mettle and Imp. Evasion, but basically no HP. Over the encounter, he injured one PC about 8 HP and completely obliterated an immortal cohort of theirs before he died due to some bad rolls on his part.

Oh. My. GOD. THE *****ING. "WTF WERE YOU THINKING" "OMG THIS GUY IS RIDICULOUS THIS IS UNFAIR" and it wasn't the good-natured, half-hearted whining that we all do from time to time for fun. They were genuinely upset up until the round that he died that this guy who was doing basically no damage to them was, himself, basically unhurt. Nearly made me quit right there.

After I expressed my anger and my two most reasonable PCs chatted it up with the group they apologized, but damn that was annoying.

[Dannoth]

In this environment I find that it is neccessary to throw alot of smaller encounters with 1 "mini-boss" and alot of minions. The idea is to blow their healing surges and hopefully a daily or two.

If your PCs are blowing through encounters here are some helpful ideas:

Split them up - they will either have to fight seperate or waste time moving back together (when the attack starts some of them are in their cabins or below deck)

Man over board - Use terrain - Find a monster with a knock back and shove a PC or two into the water/into a pit. Some PCs are better at climbing, so you can use height as a way to split them up a bit.

Kill the one in the dress - Nothing like using semi intelligent mobs to gang beat the casters. If nothing else it forces them to play defensively (which is fun)

[Arbitrarity]

Highly defensive characters are pretty annoying. My party, last session, crushed some homebrewed 4E converted to 3.5 monstrosity with over 200 health which, according to our DM, counterattacks every close attack (Is this how immediate interrupts work?) with 3d8+9. We're still trying to catch the seemingly permanent greater invisibilitied foe. Despite that he walks up behind us and attacks in melee.

[Talic]

Two Thoughts on that one: Diamond Mind's "Hearing the Air", or
Tiger Claw's "Hunter's Sense".

The 1st will pinpoint anything within 30 feet. The 2nd will detect things within 30 feet, and pinpoint within 5. In either case, when you ID one more thing than you can see, have the wizard cast a See Invisibility.

[Arbitrarity]

If any of those applied, it would be easier. Actually, it's mostly that we haven't got around to killing him. Malconvoker has sumonned fiendish tigers/Wolves, which all have scent. We also have a character with +21 or so spot/listen, who can take 10 on either at any time.

Still, I don't like to waste time on a moderately damaging foe who I'll miss 50% of the time.

[Raum]

Now, I don't think I did anything explicitly wrong. Did I? I want to know, because, instead of coming and telling me how they felt about the session, my players are being sorta...passive-aggressive about it. So, I'm being P-A, right back.

So, Playgrounders, am I really a bad enough DM that I belong in the "Things DMs do that make us hate them" thread?If you're serious about the emphasized statement, quite possibly.

Table top RPGs utilize communication skills. Passive aggressive behavior is one of the faster ways to tear a group apart. At some point you'll need to talk to the group about the issues. Try and resolve them. If you don't they'll just get worse. Good luck.

[Burley]

I'm being passive-aggressive by doing the same in return, really... Hence the thread title. I've told my players before that I'm not going to change anything about the game unless they tell me there is something they don't like, and I don't consider jabs on the forums that I frequent to be constructive criticism, or open communication.
This falls into the category (of which I am quite familiar): "I've given the opportunity to X, but all I get is =/=X." After every session, I ask how it went, if there were problems, blah blah blah. I send out an email every few sessions asking the same thing.
I do get the occassional constructive criticism, which I respect and take to heart, and I feel that my game is improving because of it. However, I also read through certain forum threads about bad DMs (because there are usually funny stories) and find myself being written about.
Thanks, everybody who gave me constructive criticism and encouragement. I enjoy my game and all of my players, but sometimes I guess I just need the affirmation that I'm not doing things completely wrong.

[AstralFire]

sometimes I guess I just need the affirmation that I'm not doing things completely wrong.

I think most good DMs do. :smallbiggrin:

[Tallis]

The only mistake that you made, from your side of the story, was not at least rolling Spot checks for them. Since there's no facing in D&D, it would've been better to give them at least a chance of seeing the creatures (although you could've given them penalties, if you really felt it necessary).

I agree with this.

I also suggest sitting down and talking to the players about how they feel. Remind them that you are still learning and that you need their input to improve.

[Skjaldbakka]

Yeah, you really should have given a spot check, but that really isn't worth the level of belly-aching you got for it. It would have been if it had resulted in making the fight super lethal, but if the fight was a cakewalk, they had no reason to complain.

[Moofin Bard]

If you were put in the things DMs do to make us hate them thread, I apologize because I made that thread. What you did would have been fine with my group of gamers. It seems that these gamers just felt a little ambushed. I agree that you should just talk to them and ask them for input, even if you don't plan on using it.

[darkzucchini]

Tactics are the key.

There is nothing wrong with the encounter as you set it, but you can easily increase the challenge of an encounter by having the opponent fight smart. Having enemies focus fire can greatly increase the challenge and the PCs do this all the time. Also, if you can knock one of the PCs off the boat and into the water or have one of the Sahuagin grapple a PC and drag him under, then th PCs have a much bigger problem on there hands. Not only is the underwater PC in much more danger than the other PCs due to possibility of drown and the difficulty of fighting underwater as compared to the Sahuagin, but the boat will also be moving away from the man overboard. The priority for the players shifts from killing the enemy to saving their own man. PCs in my games quickly learn that water is their greatest enemy.

[EndlessWrath]

You didn't do anything wrong...in fact... you made the correct decision to strategize and make a challenge for the players. When games can be won by the push of a button, or by a roll of a single die... It becomes meaningless. I submit to you, my theories.
-Either you baby your players too often and you just decided to "play fo' keeps" as my man Ricky-Bobby would say...
OR
-Your players are sissies and need to man up.

Games are meant to be challenging, otherwise they become boring. As long as you don't make it appear as if you're changing the rules halfway through or Changing decisions after your action has already been made... I don't see the problem. I'm gonna have to give you the magical stick... its called the "ima gonna knock some sense into ya." stick. Use that on your players.