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FatherMalkav
2008-07-29, 08:45 AM
So I've looked through my fourth edition PHB and DMG and I can't find any rules for combining magic enchantments on weapons and/or armor. I'm not even sure if the option exists but does it anywhere list a system to combine effects like Vicious and Flameburst?

Tyger
2008-07-29, 08:52 AM
Short answer is that they don't exist, at this time.

No doubt we'll have a shiny big book of magic items at some point in the very near future, and that book will have all the rules one could ask for.

Dizlag
2008-07-29, 09:01 AM
Yuppers, it's called the Adventurer's Vault (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/217837200) and will be out in September.

Dizlag

Yakk
2008-07-29, 12:03 PM
For a quick and dirty system, I'd add the "delta" vs the standard magic weapon levels together.

Ie, a +1 "bare" weapon is level 1.
A +1 weapon effect that is level 4 has a "delta" of 3 (4-1).
Similarly, a +1 weapon effect that is level 5 has a "delta" of 4.

So a weapon with both effects might be 1+3+4 = 8, and still be a +1 weapon.

Naturally, you'd take the maximum of both weapon's critical hit dice (don't add them together), and the resulting weapon would have two daily powers instead of one, etc.

Dizlag
2008-07-29, 12:27 PM
Yakk's post isn't a quick and dirty solution, it IS the solution in my opinion. If you compare the "Magic Weapon" entry with the "Lightning Weapon" entry just above it, you'll see what Yakk means about a delta. The at-will and daily power on a lightning weapon is worth 4 levels.

So, if we take a "+2 Magic Weapon" (6 levels), a "Lightning" weapon (+4 levels) and a "Flaming" weapon (+4 levels) to create say a +2 flaming lightning weapon we'll have a 14th level magic weapon that will deal +2d6 damage on a critical that is both lightning and fire damage. It would have two at-will powers (one that turns on/off the lightning and one that turns on/off the fire damage) and two daily powers (a free action to damage enemies within 2 squares with lightning and a free action to do ongoing fire damage to the target you just hit with the weapon).

It seems like a reasonable way to create a complex magic item to me. Kudos Yakk!

Dizlag

EDIT: changed the name of the weapon from flameburst to flaming.

FatherMalkav
2008-07-29, 12:32 PM
I'm at work right now so I don't have my book, but that seems to work fine.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-29, 12:37 PM
I'd think it should work just fine, though it could be potentially dangerous on non-weapon items. But of course, that's the fun of Lego-magic! :smallbiggrin:

Dan2
2008-07-29, 12:45 PM
Kudos, Yakk.

It's a really good system.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-29, 01:15 PM
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yakk comes through on the math again!

FatherMalkav
2008-07-29, 01:54 PM
Now how would we figure price? I know they follow set patters with each 5 lvl jump, but it varies from weapon to weapon. I'd try to do the math myself, but I don't have my books at work to look at.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-29, 01:57 PM
Level X weapon always costs Y gold.

Yakk
2008-07-29, 01:58 PM
Magic weapons have a price by level.

Note that the reason I called it a "quick hack" is that is most probably way overprices items.

SCPRedMage
2008-07-29, 02:12 PM
For a quick and dirty system, I'd add the "delta" vs the standard magic weapon levels together.

Ie, a +1 "bare" weapon is level 1.
A +1 weapon effect that is level 4 has a "delta" of 3 (4-1).
Similarly, a +1 weapon effect that is level 5 has a "delta" of 4.

So a weapon with both effects might be 1+3+4 = 8, and still be a +1 weapon.

Naturally, you'd take the maximum of both weapon's critical hit dice (don't add them together), and the resulting weapon would have two daily powers instead of one, etc.
One problem with that...

A magic item’s level and its enhancement bonus are associated. An item that has a +2 bonus is always between level 6 and level 10.
Once you raise the item's level above an increment of five, it's enhancement bonus is supposed to be raised, as well. So, say you combine a Duelist's Weapon (delta +2) with a Flaming Weapon (delta +4), it'd be a +7 item, which is supposed to have a +2 enhancement bonus. Of course, you could just ignore that rule...

But to be honest, magic items in 4e aren't supposed to be like 3.5. They're not SUPPOSED to be so customizable. 3.5 magic items were so customizable they were considered part of your character's build; 4e magic items are supposed to be helpful, but play second fiddle to your character's powers.

Dark Tira
2008-07-29, 06:11 PM
One problem with that...

Once you raise the item's level above an increment of five, it's enhancement bonus is supposed to be raised, as well. So, say you combine a Duelist's Weapon (delta +2) with a Flaming Weapon (delta +4), it'd be a +7 item, which is supposed to have a +2 enhancement bonus. Of course, you could just ignore that rule...


Dragon already broke that rule in Ashen Covenent with disrupting weapon and staff of the lich. (a level 8 +1 item and a level 13 +2 item respectively)

Yakk
2008-07-29, 11:03 PM
Yes, when you change the rules, the rules have to be changed. :-)

I'm less than convinced it is an ideal change, but it does give you a simple system to work off of.

(Note that players will often be better off just owning two swords -- by a significant margin even.)

ghost_warlock
2008-07-30, 12:32 AM
(Note that players will often be better off just owning two swords -- by a significant margin even.)

Especially considering many players will probably want the extra + to hit from the existing higher-level weapons. With the way defenses scale in 4e, it seems like a fairly good idea to keep upgrading to the best to-hit-bonus weapon when a character has the opportunity, even if it's just your basic +X magic weapon without a daily.

And I'd definitely hang on to some lower-level items and carry them around in a character's off-hand so that the character can take advantage of the extra power/special effect. Take, for instance, a warlock-multiclass-wizard, who will want to primarily attack with a wand for the versatility in implement bonus to hit, but who could still benefit from keeping a rod around for the bonus effects to his cursing.

(Now I really want to play a potty-mouth warlock! :smallbiggrin: )

fred321
2008-07-30, 10:53 AM
4ed itens are NOT supposed to have more than one magical propertie. If you want to house rule they can, do as you wish.

Pirate_King
2008-07-30, 11:42 AM
Does anyone know why wand powers are daily? would it unbalance everything if they were encounter instead?

Larrin
2008-07-30, 01:35 PM
Does anyone know why wand powers are daily? would it unbalance everything if they were encounter instead?

Making the wands power daily means it uses up on of your 'daily item uses' (you have 1 at heroic tier, 2 at paragon, 3 at epic, +1 for every milestone). Thus you can't have a bag of wands and just pull them out one by one every battle because you'll run out of your personal 'daily item uses'. There is no limit to 'encounter' magic item power usage, so indeed one could just have a bag of wands and use one each turn, then repeat the next encounter. That is what they are trying to avoid.

Yakk
2008-07-30, 02:52 PM
Wand powers are daily because your items are supposed to be far less important than your abilities.

With encounter-level wand powers, you could easily spend more time casting spells from wands than your own powers. That ... doesn't match the design goal.

Gralamin
2008-07-30, 03:17 PM
Another possibility. Instead of comparing delta level, compare delta gold, then round up to the next item level.
Taking Yak's Example...

a +1 "bare" weapon is level 1. (360 gp)
A +1 weapon effect that is level 4 (840 gp) has a "delta" of 480 gp (840-360).
Similarly, a +1 weapon effect that is level 5 (1,000 gp) has a "delta" of 640 gp (1000-360).

So a weapon with both effects might be 360+480+640 = 1,480, and still be a +1 weapon. Since level 6 item is 1,800 gp, the item should be rounded up and treated as a level 6 item.

Yakk's overprices some, while mine might underprice, so use both of them, and take the middle value (In this case, I generated 6 when he generated 8, so call it a 7).

In addition, write in the rule: When combining magic item effects, a weapons enhancement bonus does not change because of reaching a point where a higher enhancement bonus should be in effect.

Higher level example, combine the following effects:
Level 21 Magic +5 225,000
Level 22 Vicious +5 325,000
Level 25 Flaming +5 625,000
Yakk's -> 21+(22-21)+(25-21) = 21 + 1 + 4 = 26
Mine -> 225,000 + (325,000 - 225,000) + (625,000-225,000) = 225,000 + 100,000 + 400,000 = 725000, level 26 is 1,125,000, round up to 26.
They actually agree here, so the average will of course be 26.

simplifying equations...
X+Y-X+Z-X = Y+Z-X
Y is the price/level of ability A
Z is the price/level of ability B
X is the price/level of the enhancement bonus

In the case of a fraction (Mixing a Rod of Pyre +4 and a Rod of Corruption +4), check items of each possible level, and choose what you think its closest to (Magic Rod +5 is level 21, Rod of Dark Reward +5 is level 22. Round up to 22, in my opinion.)

Yakk
2008-07-30, 03:32 PM
As an aside, the formula for magic item prices is roughly:

1000 gp * 5^(L/5)

Under the "sum of level delta" rule, the "delta multipliers" add up.

So we have:

5^((B+X)/5) and 5^((B+Y)/5) as the prices of the two magic items with level-deltas X and Y (and base magic item cost B).

Mine generates: 5^((B+X+Y)/5), or a "price multiplier" of 5^((X+Y)/5) over the base magic weapon with no special powers.

His generates:
[5^((B+X)/5) - 5^(B/5) + 5^((B+Y)/5) - 5^(B/5)] + 5^(B/5)
=
5^((B+X)/5) + 5^((B+Y)/5) - 5^(B/5)

Divide through by 5^(B/5), and we get:
5^(X/5) + 5^(Y/5) - 1
as his "price multiplier".

Not sure what conclusion we can reach from that, but it gives a glimpse at the underlying mathematics involved. :-)

Gralamin
2008-07-30, 03:47 PM
As an aside, the formula for magic item prices is roughly:

1000 gp * 5^(L/5)

Under the "sum of level delta" rule, the "delta multipliers" add up.

So we have:

5^((B+X)/5) and 5^((B+Y)/5) as the prices of the two magic items with level-deltas X and Y (and base magic item cost B).

Mine generates: 5^((B+X+Y)/5), or a "price multiplier" of 5^((X+Y)/5) over the base magic weapon with no special powers.

His generates:
[5^((B+X)/5) - 5^(B/5) + 5^((B+Y)/5) - 5^(B/5)] + 5^(B/5)
=
5^((B+X)/5) + 5^((B+Y)/5) - 5^(B/5)

Divide through by 5^(B/5), and we get:
5^(X/5) + 5^(Y/5) - 1
as his "price multiplier".

Not sure what conclusion we can reach from that, but it gives a glimpse at the underlying mathematics involved. :-)

Well, We took different approaches, in a truly ridiculous example, such as a fighter wanting +1 Dwarven Razor Curseforged Delver's Black Iron Barkskin Scale, the methods look like this:
Yours: 2*2+3*3+4+5-1 = 4*3+9 = 21
Mine: 520*2+680*3+840+1000-360 = 4560 gp, round up to level 10.
Balanced: (10+21)/2 = 15.5, since its a fraction and everything else at this time is +3, we'll say it rounds down to 15.

Comparing our price modifiers,
Yours: 5^((X+Y)/5)
Mine: 5^(X/5) + 5^(Y/5) - 1
Using the product rule of exponents, yours is the equivalent of
5^(X/5) * 5 ^ (Y/5)
So the difference seems to be I add and subtract one from the components, while you multiply them.

Combining them for average gets us a price multiplier of about:
(5^((X+Y)/5) + 5^(X/5) + 5^(Y/5) - 1) / 2
Which is ugly, but can't be simplified in any way I know of.

But I think an average of both is probably the best system, since Mine would tend to underprice it (in my opinion), while yours tends to overprice it (as you stated), thus taking the average gets us a pretty good estimate :smallwink:

edit: It should be noted that armor may require special rules, since depending on the type, a change between +3 and +4 or +5 and +6 can lose 2 to 4 points to AC. Perhaps a rule stating that for the purposes of masterwork armor, they have an effective enhancement bonus of 4 instead of 3 or 6 instead of 5?