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Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-29, 04:11 PM
In one of my 4th Edition groups I have a Doppelganger Cleric. Now, the party was thrown into a jail where the prisioners are given brands with a hot iron on the palms of their hands noting the time and location of their jailing. So, this came up in the course of conversation:


If a Doppelganger is scarred, specifically by a hot brand, when it is in a different form, can it Change Shape to remove the appearance of the scar? Also, does it retain the scar when in its natural shape?


I put the question to Wizards and their official responce is that they have no official answer (though apparently it's been passed onto the developers to ponder for future update entries and the like).

I made the judgement call that the Doppelganger is able to Change Shape to remove the marks from an assumed form and that it does retains the scars in its natural shape.

Anyway, I'm interested in getting some other opinions.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-29, 04:14 PM
It's an interesting question. I think I'd make that call situationally from game to game to be honest. I assume the branding had a plot regarding reason for it, so depending upon how much letting it vanish would throw a monkey in the works / open up lots of neat strategic options for the players, I pick between them. All three seem valid options to me.

spamoo
2008-07-29, 04:23 PM
This actually raises an interesting issue with all shapeshifters. At first it would seem that the removal of a scar is well within the ability of a Doppleganger, but this raises a larger issue. If a Doppleganger is able to remove a scar, it should also be able to remove cuts and bruises. That could also mean that they can heal any damage, internal or external that is dealt to them as an at-will power. I would rule that you are unable to remove any damage (including brands) with a polymorph power.

Viruzzo
2008-07-29, 04:24 PM
Since Change Shape is limited to a humanoid of the same size (medium), you can rule that is not radical enough to remove scars and permanent limb loss (for example), or it just reduces them.
Actually, what happens to a changeling who has permanently lost a body part? Can he grow it temporarily with Change Shape?

Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-29, 04:25 PM
I assume the branding had a plot regarding reason for it, so depending upon how much letting it vanish would throw a monkey in the works / open up lots of neat strategic options for the players, I pick between them.

There is and that's largely why I made the choice I did.

The player chosen to play a Doppelganger before anybody knew about the scars and asked about using Change Shape well into gameplay. It seemed like a clever way to deal with a situation given resources that weren't hand picked for the situation.


At first it would seem that the removal of a scar is well within the ability of a Doppleganger, but this raises a larger issue. If a Doppleganger is able to remove a scar, it should also be able to remove cuts and bruises.

I had the same thought. I made it clear that the player wouldn't be able to do such things (which he was okay with).

Greenfaun
2008-07-29, 04:36 PM
What an interesting question. My personal take on it if I were GM would be that the doppelganger couldn't conceal it while it was a fresh burn, so for a couple weeks or until a healing ritual or other intervention, but after the wound has healed to a scar, then the doppelganger would have the same control over it as any other piece of healthy flesh, i. e. it could shape it however it wanted. Scar tissue is still alive, it's just less organized than normally developed tissue. Since Doppelgangers can change their hair and fingernails and even mimic things like scales and horns, I don't think scar tissue would be a challenge.

Still, if it's a game world where they have to deal with doppelganger criminals on a regular basis, maybe they have some sort of MAGICAL hot iron that permanently brands creatures that can shapeshift or regenerate or whatever. That seems appropriate for Eberron, for instance. Kinda evil, though.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-29, 04:41 PM
I thought about using arcana marks of a sort, much like Eberron, but that did seem fair too much. The idea was the force the characters to find ways around the marks (like sneaking into a city rather than coming in the gates, for example) and using a magical brand just seemed over the top.

Everybody managed creative solutions. The group's Halfling Rogue came up with a plan to rescar his hands into a new and different pattern then claim it was a cultural marking.

I like to see my players come up with creative ideas, even ones that might not specifically work in the real world.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-29, 04:43 PM
The player chosen to play a Doppelganger before anybody knew about the scars and asked about using Change Shape well into gameplay. It seemed like a clever way to deal with a situation given resources that weren't hand picked for the situation.

The one you went with seemed like a good compromise then. Although, I'll admit, for a bad guy, a doppleganger with that one tell tale scar they can't get rid of a pretty enticing notion.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-29, 04:49 PM
Although, I'll admit, for a bad guy, a doppleganger with that one tell tale scar they can't get rid of a pretty enticing notion.

Oh, that would be a fun one. Might have to use that trick with one of my other groups.

FatherMalkav
2008-07-29, 04:49 PM
Well there in lies an issue. The natural profession for Doppelgangers is thief or spy, both of which professions lead to combat -> wounds -> scars. I think a Doppelganger's natural ability would remove scars unless stated otherwise (they are live cells anyway) but maybe a certain type of damage will leave a lasting scar. I could see fire or maybe necrotic damage leaving SOME lasting effect on them, at least more then a sword or mace.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-29, 05:05 PM
Well now there's a different idea. I hadn't thought of it but you have a point. Farthermore, who says Doppelgangers scar at all? They do have shifting skin, maybe they don't retain scars like humans do. That would be an interesting way to play it as well.

RukiTanuki
2008-07-29, 05:05 PM
Like others have said, an interesting question. Here's how I'd flavor my setting:

A shapeshifter that assumes a new form, then takes physical damage, will display the same damage whens shifting back, so long as the wound is fresh. If a wound is given time to heal or scab over (basically so that it is safe to leave exposed to the air), the shapeshifter will be able to conceal it by shifting once again. Alternate forms appear undamaged but are still damaged beneath the surface, and the wound certainly still hurts.

The shapeshifter retains scars in its natural form. A shapeshifter branded in an alternate form would be branded in its natural form, but could assume forms without the brand.

As for missing limbs: I'd say a shapeshifter can shift features they're missing, but the newly created body parts are awkward to use, and provide a bonus on Insight checks to notice that something's not quite right. Missing limbs recreated via shifting would provide a minor penalty on attacks and checks involving their use. (The idea would be to provide a penalty large enough to encourage finding a way to regenerate the limb, but not severe enough that the PC doesn't even bother trying in the meantime.)

Storm Bringer
2008-07-29, 05:05 PM
An intresting variation, for your consideration:

the doppleganger cannot actaully remove the banded flesh, but he can shift it around, and, if he thinks of it, hide it inside his body (ie put heathly flesh on top of it).

The logic being that the burnt flesh doesn't really work properly, and he can't will the branded flesh to be un-banded. however, he can still control the surrounding flesh, and can move the brand to whatever location he can think of.

Totally Guy
2008-07-29, 05:26 PM
I'd say that it is an ability of the skin.

Much like Storm Bringer's answer the flesh may be covered over by another layer of skin but I'd also say that this causes a lump where the dead skin cannot move back into a further recessed position.

As a side effect to the skin thing I'd also say that the doppleganger has difficulty repositioning it's teeth or changing their condition if bad. A doppleganger can still shift into a dragonborn for example but the teeth would be spaced out and unnatural.

If the doppleganger was caught and the captors wanted to stop the impostor they should knock out a tooth so that specific people cannot be impersonated. This is instead of branding.

In a society where this happens a lot a particular tooth would be chosen is all instances. And people mising that particular tooth would be treated with skepticism.

This of course would be a good hint to the players that the duke is an impostor when he grins and they notice a missing tooth that was not there in the last session.

Ashtar
2008-07-29, 06:15 PM
I'm going to pull X-Men 2/3 as an example of how I would do it. Mystique can remove "normal" scars, but specific weapons (Wolverine's claws) will leave a tiny tell-tale mark for a long time.

So I would allow the shifter to hide the scars once they have healed (ie. are no longer wounds), but leave a small trace for certain weapons (silver, adamatium or highly magic weapons) that would be harder to hide.

Aquillion
2008-07-29, 10:38 PM
This actually raises an interesting issue with all shapeshifters. At first it would seem that the removal of a scar is well within the ability of a Doppleganger, but this raises a larger issue. If a Doppleganger is able to remove a scar, it should also be able to remove cuts and bruises. That could also mean that they can heal any damage, internal or external that is dealt to them as an at-will power. I would rule that you are unable to remove any damage (including brands) with a polymorph power.
I would say that they can conceal some wounds (although nothing as serious as a lost limb), but don't actually heal them. They form some fragile 'fake skin' over it or whatever, so it looks like it's healed without actually being healed.

I think this fits everything about the power -- scars are small things that ought to be well within the scope of the other things a doppleganger can change, but they clearly can't actually heal wounds with it.

Jack Mann
2008-07-29, 11:33 PM
Of course, if they can't hide scars, consider that there's nothing stopping their enemies from completely scarring their faces. I'm not suggesting you do that, mind. Only a complete jerk of a DM would do that, since it robs them of their character's primary ability. Just consider why they don't do that to doppelgangers.

ZekeArgo
2008-07-29, 11:47 PM
Bah, has no one here read Rich Wulf's "Heirs of Ash" trilogy? Set in Eberron, one of the villains is a changling who, as it is found out, is the barer of a rather large facial scar. Still doesn't stop him from using his shapechanging abilities to appear as other people, or as his old, unscarred appearance.

Makes sense to me as well: you can change every part of your appearance, its one of the fringe benefits of being a shapechanger: scars, brands, or other distinguishing characteristics can be changed on a whim. For that matter, I'd say it isn't a stretch to make yourself appear to be scarred or deformed either.

Conners
2008-07-29, 11:48 PM
Hmmm.... I feel like making a doppelganger NPC villain who is only distinguishable from a scar he can't morph away, now.

Normal scarring, I guess, should be easy for a doppleganger to hide. Particularly heinous scarring, however, would probably be disguisable but not fully so (rather than looking charred to the bones, you look severely burnt when you change). Magic scarring would probably be completely apparent.

Aquillion
2008-07-30, 12:35 PM
Hmmm.... I feel like making a doppelganger NPC villain who is only distinguishable from a scar he can't morph away, now.

Normal scarring, I guess, should be easy for a doppleganger to hide. Particularly heinous scarring, however, would probably be disguisable but not fully so (rather than looking charred to the bones, you look severely burnt when you change). Magic scarring would probably be completely apparent.That's a kind of nasty houserule, though, given how much of the game is magic at higher levels.

Vikazc
2008-07-30, 12:56 PM
None of this even really makes sense. If a doppleganger can change form to mimic people, they have to be able to both add and remove scars from their body. Its rediculous to assume that something as basic as a scar would be out of the bounds of their abilities.Scar tissue is still tissue, living and with nerves and so on. Any significant combat wound would leave a very noticeable scar. Ruling that scars are unchanging would cause any doppleganger who'd suffered as much as a childhood injury to be completely incapable of mimicing someone to any true degree, which it specifically says in the ability description that they are capable of mimicing a unique individual.

Edit: And a note could be made that most of the original polymorph effects did heal you for a small amount of HP when you changed to take into account your flesh being malleable at the time.

Ditto
2008-07-30, 01:28 PM
I have no problem with doppelgangers removing cuts and bruises when they shapechange – much of the D&D HP system is very abstract. It’s sort of strange to think of sonic damage doing 5d8 damage from echopower which is… what, bruising? Can popping someone’s eardrums destroy half of their health? :smallamused: There isn’t much in the way of rules for hacking of limbs in a very specific manner, either.

RAW, Change Shape doesn’t have any restrictions on scars, limb loss, hair dye, nada. Assume the shape of a humanoid, done. There’s no problem with regrowing limbs, either – in the natural state you’d be boned (and in this case, would defnitely retain the brand), but there’s no reason you ever have to return to that. Even if you like, you could assume the shape of a doppelganger who looks exactly like you but with limbs, too! No one would ever have to know what you look like until you died.